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Messages - Nagaraj

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4681
Humour / Re: "mano" equations
« on: January 11, 2010, 09:02:34 PM »
Dear I,

Quote
I think, mano-nasa = 0 vasanas + a few thoughts rising.

The one that is saying this is Mind itself, because its only agenda is to keep going, continuity.

'I' is there, then all equations are there,

'I' is not there, then there are no equations at all.

Even for thoughts to exist, there must be someone to possess them, the one desirous of possessing them is 'I', Mind, thoughts themselves.

Thoughts are nothing but Vasanas themselves.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4682
Dear I,
 :)

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and moreover ... suppose that information is not there ... how can you function in the world ?

why is there a need to function in the world? Please see who has this need? who is that 'I' ? and is there a world? what is world? are you in the world in first place, if one such world even exists?

Then we can look into the second aspect of your side of argument as to:

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and moreover ... suppose that information is not there ... how can you function in the world ? suppose Ramana were to not have any thoughts ... he would have not remembered. Yesterday you went and he would see [if at all] and today you go ... all blank!!

Lets leave Ramana, it does not matter to know whether Ramana had thoughts, did not have thoughts, whether he remembered... yesterday today and all. suppose you - 'I' feels that he had thoughts, how does it affect you - 'I', suppose he did not have thoughts, still how does it affect you - 'I'. Infact who is it that is concluding, that Ramana had thoughts or did not have thoughts? It is more important to find this 'I' who is concluding all these. Infact, it is you 'I' in the end that is deciding How Ramana was and not Ramana! It is absolutely of no consequence to see the world or the Truth from Ramana Maharshi's eyes. It is more important to see(being) the truth ourselves.

and

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Tell me ... Suppose you see a dog. The brain brings up all previous memories you had about the dog. That this dog bit you when you were a kid ... if such a memory is there, it shall surface. you do not do anything about it ... the thought just pops up. when you did not do anything to bring the thought, how do u plan to stop it from coming

why a need arised in first place to see that dog? please see this need, why it arised,  for whom did it arise?, who is the 'I' to whom this need arised.

Suppose you have not seen the dog? do these thoughts pops up as you say? The need has been there, similarly, to the girl friend example you quoted.

Question the very need! Who is having the need? Thoughts are arising because there is some need in first place.

Please introspect as follows:

1. why there is a need in first place?
2. to whom has the need arised
3. who is the 'I' to whom, those needs have arised
4. Who am I?

Needs are nothing but thoughts themselves, Mind itself, Ego itself, 'I' itself.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4683
Dear I,

In that case, what happens to these thoughts when you are sleeping? in Sushupti? Where are thoughts during sushupti that point towards Self? where are thought during sushupti that lead you to liberation? Where are you - 'I' during Sushupti, Deep Sleep?

It is only during waking - Jagrat, that you are able to say all there:

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This too is a thought ... and by your argument no thought can lead you to Self ! So this thought & what ever you have done as an action upon it ... is futile! Your argument, not mine!
 
Nagaraj, in a prior post you said "no thought can point to Self" ... its the opposite of reality. "Every Thought Points To Self"
Amazing ... infact every thought can lead to liberation!!

What about during Sushupti? Infact what you say is just Swapa - State

Salutations to Sri Ramana


4684
General topics / Pancha Bhuta Tatva
« on: January 09, 2010, 07:24:49 AM »
Dear I,

We have heard a lot about the Pancha Bhutas: Space, Water, Air, Earth, Fire. Today, I had been to Shirdi Baba temple and when I went near to the Dhuni - the fire, I was lost in contemplation, and then it flashed to me the essense of the Pancha Bhutas.

The very essence of these 5 Elements is the significance of God, Brahman, Aatma, Chaitanya, we just cannot measure it. But what the Mind/Ego/I/Thought does is that it keeps tying to measure these 5 elements, tries to understand it, tries to define the Aatma, Brahman, which is Pancha Bhuta Tatva. That is why the Vedas say, it is none of the Pancha Bhutas as well, because we try to fill the Pancha Bhutas.

Space - Whatever we try and fill the space, it will still remain unfilled. The Space can never be filled, no matter how much ever one tries to. Whatever we try to understand about the Space always remains Space, it cannot be filled. But the ego/mind/I/thought always keeps trying to occupy the space, but it will not succeed. The Tatva is that the Space consumes all - Ego/Mind/Thought/I, all Concepts, thoughts, knowledge, ignorance, everything.

Water - Whatever we try to consume the water, the water dissolves it all, Water known as a universal solvent, just dissolves everything one tries to define it. The Tatva is that Water dissolves everything - Ego/Mind/Thought/I, all Concepts, thoughts, knowledge, ignorance, everything.

Air - Whatever we try to define the Aatman, Brahman, Chaitanya, i.e. to define it. we try to forcibly push the Air in one direction. Will the air ever listen to you which is Ego/Mind/I/Thought? who just wants to define it based on its own knowledge, thoughts, idea, concepts. It just wont listen. The Tatva is that the Air just takes all - Ego/Mind/Thought/I, all Concepts, thoughts, knowledge, ignorance, everything in its own direction, and not the other way.

Earth - The Tatva is very simple, the earth is the eternal Aatman, Brahman, Chaitanya - No matter how much the Mind/Ego/Thought/I tries to live permanently, it will eventually be consumed by the Earth. i.e. everybody- Mind/Ego/I/Thought will become ashes, become one with the Earth.

Fire - Fire consumes you - Mind/Ego/I/Thought. Can anything, any concept, understanding, knowledge stand near the fire? It will destroy  you - Mind/Ego/I/Thought.

Like this, whatever we try to know and profess to know as the reality will always be nothing near the Aatman, Brahman, Chaitanya. The essence of these Pancha Bhuta Tatvas is this that you, which is just Mind/Thought/I/Ego can never ever understand the Brahman.

And this is exactly what the third eye of Shiva signifies, when the third eye opens, it just burns everything into Bhasma - all thoughts, knowledge, understanding, everything. It strips you absolutely naked, without anything to cling on. That hopelessness, Hopeless state, totally giving up. This is true Bhakti. This is Sharanagati.

The Pancha Bhutas signify this. Every temple, the deity in the sanctum sactoriam  is just aa "Prathi Bimba" or Mirror image of your true Self. But what we see is only an image of our own little self in the mirror, an image of body, shirt, pants, body, eye, limbs, etc...

This is the real concept of Temples, the God in the temples is just our own real real reflection, this is the real mirror and not the ordinary mirror that only gives the reflection of Ego/Mind/Thought/I. The real mirror gives us the reflection of Godhood, Brahman, Aatman, Chaitanya, which we pray, Blindly. We should reflect more about this. The Pancha Bhutas are an excellent illustrations that gives us the Real Mirror-Image of our real Self.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4685
General topics / Re: Seat Of Soul
« on: January 09, 2010, 06:54:38 AM »
Dear I,

Bhagawan has said that the Self is th seat of the Ego/I/Thought/Mind. He has said that it is the centre of the Universe. It is neither here nor not here. Neither left nor right. Neither up nor down. It is everywhere and nowhere.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4686
Dear I,

There is another 'Tatvam' about the dead bodies and skeletons dancing in Kailash in Shiva Loka, that Shiva is such a God, whose Karunyam, Divinity, whose presence, even make dead bodies, skeletons which is Jada padartha dance in ecstasy. What Narada says in his Bhakti Sutra as Romancha.

Such is the greatness of Shiva

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4687

                             I agree with your views on the subject. My view is that once we understand and appreciate the teachings of Bhagavan, there after, we should  keep aside going through any other books  or any other Gurus and turn our attention our attention inwards in all seriousness throughout our waking period. Only when we have any doubt in our sadhana, then we should refer Bhagavan’s works such as Nan Yaar,Upadesa Saram & Ulladhu Narpadhu and these three books alone are sufficient to clarify our doubts and we need go through teachings of any other masters. When we say that we are the followers of  Bhagavan, we should catch hold of his teachings very strongly and practice in all earnest for happiness and peace. I understand that during Bhagavan’s life time there were some  devotees who quickly grasped his teachings  and then on stopped putting any questions and started practicing self enquiry in all earnest. On the other hand ,there were other devotees who spent their life time putting only questions to Bhagavan on his teachings. In Nan Yaar, Bhagavan says The Self is within the five sheaths but books are outside them. Since the Self has to be inquired into by discarding the five sheaths, it is futile to search for it in books. There will come a time when one will have to forget all that one has learned. Swami Sivananda  says that an ounce of practice is better than tons of reading.

Yes, that is precisely what Bhagawan has said:

That only desire one can have is Self Enquiry alone, any other desire is only Mind/Ego/I gratification. 'I' leave it to readers to see what is the 'other desires' is.

Because, in this "Other Desires" there is also holy desires, spiritual desires etc... We have all read how Perumal Swami, though he appeared to be so close and serving Bhagawan so dearly, was more interested in heading, managing the Ashramam.

Actually, it is easier to know, discriminate what Bad vasanas are, but there are such vasanas that are more dangerous than the so called bad vasanas, because, they appear like Good Vasanas and keeps the I/Mind/Though/Ego going thinking that it is closer to divinity.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4688
Dear I,

By your own definition,
the "as long as" ... is thought ... its thought that "after" that there is something and that manonashanam , which is absence of both is a thought too! so you are just saying everything is a thought ... even the absence of thought is a thought !

:) I thought Everything is Brahman ;)

Well, this is what the thought is doing, giving out one more answer -

"so you are just saying everything is a thought ... even the absence of thought is a thought !"

":) I thought Everything is Brahman ;)"

As long as there is question and answer, so long it goes. As I said before both questions and answers are both one and the same. I have nothing more to say here. what ever questions are there, they are your own and surely there will be an answer too, within you.

If there is a question, it will have an answer, and if there is an answer, there will be question, again.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4689
Dear I,

Absolutely,

Manonasham remains a thought so long, you question it, so long you have answers to it. Just the absence of both is Manonasham.

So long you have question you have answers. This is what I/Ego/Mind wants.

Question is Ego/Mind/I/Thought
Answers is again the same Ego/Mind/I/Thought

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These are the thoughts too  --- so whats it? manonashanam is also a thought!

Yes! it sure is - thats why, I mentioned "All the above  - whatever I wrote is your own."

Salutations to Sri Ramana Maharshi

4690
Dear I,

Quote
If no thought can point to Self, Ramana's whole teaching ... read it , is absolutely useless ... is this what you mean?

Is what you mean, these are all your thoughts, please see them yourself. There is no answer here. Find it out yourself.

Self does not need Self realisation. Absolutely, Bang on! So who is it that is needing the so called Self Realisation? is it not the Mind?, Ego?, I?, Though?

Body is just a thought.

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he mind is "thoughts" --- which you said cannot see the Self. So all vedas , vedantas and teachings are useless... including Ramana and his teachings ... is this what you are telling ?

Is what you mean, these are all your thoughts, please see them yourself. There is no answer here. Find it out yourself.

These are all the questions popping up within you. You have the answers for it too. And if you have answers then it your thought pointing to another thought. If you have question, then it is Mind, thought, Ego, I.

If you don't have both, is manonasham



All the above  - whatever I wrote is your own.


Salutations to Sri Ramana




4691
Dear I,

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1. If Ego were "alive" it can be destroyed. What is only a shadow ... how do you propose to destroy it?

2. The Ramana who talked to you also a part of the imagination ... So to say that "True" Ramana is thoughtless ... its meaningless ... coz the only Ramana you/I or anyone knows is the one who see , walking talking etc.

1. The very idea suggested is indicative of false perception. The very entity that holds this view itself is the Ego - I - Mind - Thought. The Mind, here, is itself trying to protect itself by thinking that Ego is a shadow, that it cannot be destroyed, that it does not exist. But it is forgetting itself which is itself the Ego, Mind, Thought.

As I said before, Thought cannot kill thought, therefore I never mentioned about destroying it. There is no destroying here. The very idea of destroying it is again another thought and also the very idea of not killing it is also a thought. As long as thought exists, there is no Manonasham.

      a. The Mind cannot become Self
      b. The Mind cannot kill Mind
      c. The entity that says nothing can affect it is also Mind
      d. The Self cannot know it is Self, there is no need for it. So the one that is saying is just the Mind

2. Ramana Maharshi is himself just a thought for thought. Ramana Maharshi exists so long thought/mind exists.

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The finger is pointing to the moon and you are saying "its not the moon, its a finger" !

The statement "its the state of everyone" is meant to be a pointer towards the Self! But why do you have to tell this, all statements here are bound to be thoughts! Coz they are statements.

Thats precisely what I am telling - "The finger is pointing to the moon and you are saying - 'its not the moon, its a finger'" The thought/mind/ego/I is just pointing towards another thought/mind/ego/I

There is no way the thought can point towards the so called "Moon"

To whom is the pointer? who needs the pointer? Please see.

Salutations to Sri Ramana







4692
Dear I,

What I am more trying to point here is this, that - "It is not a "State" Attained ... it is everyone's state here and now." is also a thought only.

The You, thought, Mind, I, is just working out its continuity.

It is not even this - "It is not a "State" Attained ... it is everyone's state here and now."

The one that says this is still the thought, I, Mind.

You are just Thought.

Salutations to Sri Ramana




4693
Dear I,

Can you rephrase your questions, I am not able to follow your questions.

Salutations to Sri Ramana


4694
Dear I,

Infact Sri Ramana Maharshi is verily Dakshinamurthy himself just below the Arunachala hill instead of a Banyan tree.

Ramana is ever seated like Dakshinamurthy. It is only the I - thoughts - mind that is seeing Ramana in action.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4695
Dear I,

Nothing to deny about all you said, "Instead of having some other thoughts, it is better to have Ramana thoughts, which I trust, is a good Sadhana, particularly for fellows who cannot control the mind."

As I have said, meaning absolutely no offense to anybody. It was an introspection, which I felt was so very important to be aware of. It is like the third eye of Shiva, which reduces everything into Bhasma or Ashes.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

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