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Messages - Nagaraj

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4651
General topics / Re: How to watch the sense 'I am'
« on: January 13, 2010, 09:05:22 PM »
Dear I,

There is really no sense of experiencing "I am".    it is simply being. It remains experience so long the Self enquiry continues till the mind/I merges where the perfect Self emerges as 'I-I'

The example quoted by Ramana Maharshi is the first (stage) in what he says:

"First the Self sees itself as object, then the Self sees itself as Void, and finally it sees itiself as Self, here there is no seeing as seeing is being"

Therefore,

Experiencing the sense of "I am" is "First the Self sees itself as object"

and

in reality, "I am" is simply being - "and finally it sees itiself as Self, here there is no seeing as seeing is being"

Which is why I have always stressed in my other posts that Bhagawan's answers to several questions were tailor made as per the Pakva of the Questioneer. Those answers and Dialogues recorded as books should not be taken at face value as his answers to our same question. We have seen several instances where Bhagawan has responded differently for same questions. But His grace shall take care of the devotee all through!

Salutations to Sri Ramana.


4652
Humour / Re: "mano" equations
« on: January 13, 2010, 08:56:50 PM »
Dear I,

Honestly, how much ever, clues you try to gather about the state of consciousness, it is always going to fall short. because by ascertaining these equations, only the mind is being fueled, so that this mind can try and be like the consciousness. Mind has to cease completely.

Those equations may seem correct only to the extent of what the Mind sees the Perfect Self to be.

The Self is beyond all these possible equations and anything the Mind can comprehend!

Those equations you mentioned are definitely very carefully analysed ones by the mind. It may seem to give great sense of achievement of knowing the reality of Realisation and the Self, but it is all just thoughts and Mind only. This is what the Mind is doing - it keeps giving out thoughts so that thoughts can continue!

Manonasam is inevitable.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4653
Dear I,

Observe this?
Essentially what i am presenting is straight forward. that which is of the mind will remain in the mind. that which is outside the mind will remain outside the mind! There is nothing anyone can do abt this.

Actually, there is nothing outside the mind and of the mind, what you see as outside the mind and inside the mind is just the same mind. There is just the mind alone. There is nothing anyone can do about it - Very true. Now this is actually the essence of Sharanagati. A sense of giving up. The mind realises its real nature, the nature of its limitedness. This is the sense of Humbleness.

Now, here is where, we have to apply what Krishna has said in the Gita:

tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.

This kind of submissive is attained only after realising the limitedness of the 'I' thoughts. This is in reality true Sharanagati. A sense of bowing down due to its own limitedness.

Bhagawan, has explained very clearly, to exactly the same question you raised:

"That which makes the enquiry is the ego, the 'I' about which the enquiry is made is also Ego, as a result of enquiry, Ego ceases to exist and only Self is found to exist"

This ego has to cease! The maximum the ego, mind can do is only attain the realisation of its own reality - Limitedness.

This 'I' has to merge, Bhagawan has said:

"The Mind will merge only by self enquiry" It has to merge - it has to cease

He further says:

"Where the 'I' merges, another entity emerges as 'I-I' of its own accord, that is the perfect Self" and not this 'I'

which is what I observed, that even though 'I' reads Ribhu Gita, Ashtavarka Gita, Avadhoota Gita and keeps affirming that it is Brahman etc... is still only a thought to it right? other wise it will not tell that thoughts cant affect it for it itiself is the very thought.

"Where the mind merges, another entity emerges" itself very clearly says that Mind has to go - this is Manonasam. When this happens, in its place the perfect self is found. And when the Perfect Self arises as 'I-I' there you - Mind as not there to see the perfect Self - this is the essence of manonasam - this again is just a thought to the mind now.

This mind cannot know that perfect Self. For it has to cease for perfect Self to arise in its place.

This is what Bhagawan has said:

"First the Self sees itself as objects, then the Self sees itself as void, and finally, it sees itself as Self, here there is no seeing as seeing is being"

So when, mind reads Ribhu Gita, Avadhoota Gita, it is just is still seeing the Self as a perfect being, as some state(First the Self sees itself as objects), then on attaining its reality of its realisation of its limitedness, it sees void(then the Self sees itself as void):  
Quote
There is nothing anyone can do abt this.

and then, it has to now cease to exist. it has to get merged for the perfect Self to arise as 'I-I' which it will not be there to know! for here there is no seeing as it is being. When Mind ceases, Pefect self is (and finally, it sees itself as Self, here there is no seeing as seeing is being)

Salutations to Sri Ramana





4654
Dear I,
 :)

Definitely, as I already mentioned in some posts between our discussions, that this is positive and constructive discussion. There is no victor or loser in the end, if at all there is any victor or a loser, its simply for the ego/mind/thoughts.
 
I do not contest the points you have mentioned, in the small and sweet illustrations of yours :) they are all true, and form a good Satsang.

How a realized person is, cannot at all be known. even that "a Realized person does not mean he should remain with closed eyes, never write blogs etc. What ever is the prarabdha that shall continue the body and mind equipment. he himself remains ever as the Self. A particular lifestyle does not make someone wise." is also a thought right? :)

What I was trying to convey is that - Who holds this idea? or thought? that a realized person can also be like this.... He has to be enquired :)

What I saw is that this person is verily Mind itself, thoughts themselves. Which is why I mentioned about the example of Sushupti or Deep sleep, why is there nothing in deep sleep, what about the blogs, writing, eating and all? it is not here in deep sleep? But we know the one that is existing is constant in all the three states - Jagrat Swapna and Sushupti. Let us call this as consciousness, and this consciousness was there in deep sleep, but the ideas and thoughts about writing and other actions did not exist at all in deep sleep or Sushupti :) then how come all these arise in Jagrat - Waking or Swapna - Dream states? why not in Sushupti? Therefore these ideas, thoughts are truly not the consciousness. as it was not there in Sushupti.

Here is what my argument was, that these arise in Jagrat and Swapna states because there is thoughts, mind, ego but the same thoughts, mind, ego did not exist in Sushupti.

What is there in Sushupti is there in Jagrat and Swapna as consciousness. We agree that this consciousness is absolutely changeless right :) but then during Jagrat and Swapna some thing pops up right? doing all these? these thoughts and all? This is Ego, Mind, Thoughts :) which are not there in Sushupti.

Which is why all that is happening is just thoughts. The You or 'I' that is seen only in Jagrat and Swapna is this mind, ego, thought, limited - 'I' but in deep sleep or Sushupti, there is none of all these, there is even no I, The Consciousness which is there at all states does not affirm itself during Sushupti right? :) were there thoughts then? No? Because the one who is holding these thoughts did not exist during Sushupti. who holds these thoughts during Jagrat and Swapna? that is the You - 'I' - I was talking about. This 'I' is just thoughts, Mind, ego, I.

Regarding the Yours-Mine, Everything happens only in the realms of thoughts. Where am I to you? it may be that you see me and are replying to me, but I am not in your mind? what I am writing here, the mind takes it and the mind itself responds? Where am I to you? am I separate from you? what ever I am saying here, is not the mind that is conveying what it understands? the mind is only telling what it has understood :) what it has understood is just its own thoughts? based on its own pre-conceived notions. In this way, everything is just thoughts there is nothing perceivable apart from thoughts themselves. I am also a thought only to you and you to me.

When I say 1+2=3. the mind checks with its previous notions if 1+2=3 if it is yes then it agrees other wise it says it is wrong because its very notions are being questioned. :) If I say 1+2=1, and then the mind when it checks this, does not agree, its beliefs and notions are put to test. is this - '1' '2' '3' '+' yours and mine differently? are they not the same? there cannot be your '1' and my '1'

what the thoughts/ego/mind/I want is simply fuel to confirm its belief patterns and notions. anything that questions its beliefs and notions it tries to rebel.

But all these do not exist during Sushupti. and the one in Sushupti Jagrat and Swapna is same all the time. But during the jagrat and Swapna, thoughts pop up i.e. ego/mind/I

:)
Salutations to Sri Ramana



4655
Dear I,

You are welcome to your thoughts.... your body, your plate, your property, your food everything! You seem to know very well about what is good and what is bad! you have all choices to select what food you want to take!

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4656
Thats the Ignorance Avidya

Please introspect and see for yourself

My argument ends here.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4657
General topics / Re: How to watch the sense 'I am'
« on: January 13, 2010, 10:58:28 AM »
Dear I,

The your mind you mentioned is your own! That is the biggest Irony.

There is no Your mind, my mind and all there is just Mind!

You have to introspect before we can continue

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4658
Dear I,

plz tell me ...
if i am just interacting with myself.
why this blog ? ;)
why dont i just sit home and talk to myself... infact even just think
Ok ... suppose by interospecting you find i am not there ... how do u know that is not hallucination?

This is such an important question, you have to ask yourself.

By the statement "plz tell me ..." you are asking yourself - ego, thoughts, mind itself.

Please ask yourself this so very important question "if i am just interacting with myself.
why this blog ? ;) why dont i just sit home and talk to myself... infact even just think"


Please enquire who is the I to whom these thoughts arising "Ok ... suppose by interospecting you find i am not there ... how do u know that is not hallucination?"

Please introspect on these. Who am 'I'

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4659
General topics / Re: How to watch the sense 'I am'
« on: January 13, 2010, 10:51:39 AM »
Dear I,

You make me smile ... really ...
if my desire is prompting all thoughts ... then i would never desire to have a bad thought. no one would desire to have a disease thought!
thats the funniest statement you ever made!! 


Who is the I that is saying "... then i would never desire to have a bad thought. no one would desire to have a disease thought! "

and the mind, ego, thought is addressing itself " thats the funniest statement you ever made!!  "

4660
Dear I,

what do you mean "how did this ego come into existence" ? it is there. That's all. normally what kind of answer would you expect for "how are you in office" ... "i started from home and reached here ... so on " ... how did this ego come into existence ... i cannot give u an explanation of the process before "i" came into existence! that would be meaningless --- for any one to give a reason .

OK, now if you say Ego is there, please enquire who is this ego? who is this I?

And this sentence you mentioned - "normally what kind of answer would you expect for "how are you in office" ... "i started from home and reached here ... so on " ... how did this ego come into existence ... i cannot give u an explanation of the process before "i" came into existence! that would be meaningless --- for any one to give a reason"

Ego, Mind, Thought is addressing to itself!

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4661
Dear I,

You are wrong. You are addressing only to yourself. Please introspect. That is the whole issue. There is no me here as you think. It is all your thoughts. There are only thoughts, there is no your thought or my thoughts and all.

There is just thoughts alone.

Quote
if its to me... i need not write here! in a blog


You are writing all these just for yourself! Please Introspect.

(This is a positive constructive discussion,  :) )

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4662
Dear I,

So "Dont Stop with Experiences"
Who has an experience / non-experience is to be inquired. And that "Who" ;) is totally unaffected by any experience! 

How does the Mind, Ego knows that the Self is totally unaffected by any experience?

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4663
Dear I,

Ego , mind ... has no choice in seeing ...
only the "reaction" to seeing is in its hands!

Now how did this ego come into existence? is it there in first place to make choice? how can it make choices if it is not there? Is not the Ego - Mind, thoughts acknowledging itself?

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4664
Dear I,

Why do you want to interospect so much?
leave this thought ;)

To whom are you asking this question? Who is the YOU? you are addressing to? In reality you - thought are asking yourself this question - "Why do you want to interospect so much? leave this thought ;)"

Because the YOU you are addressing is yourself!

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4665
Dear I,

There is no choice. Desire is where there is a choice.

Seeing, perception ... no choice.

All that I am trying to tell is this, that the one that is saying this is 'I' Ego, thoughts, Mind and it is saying so because it is under threat. Questioning it means dabbling with death for it - Mind, Thoughts, Ego.

The Ego Mind, Thought is just trying to find some way or the other to continue - "Seeing, perception ... no choice."

Please introspect, it is so clear!

Salutations to Sri Ramana

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