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Messages - Nagaraj

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4636
General topics / Re: Question about all paths to realize the Self
« on: January 19, 2010, 10:19:29 AM »
Dear I,

When Jeevaatma ceases, Paramaatma is. There are not two Selves in reality! But the Paramaatma would never have a need to say that it itself is Paramaatma, who is 'I' that says it is Paramaatma?"

A visitor asked Bhagavan, “What is the difference between the mind and the Self?”

Bhagavan: There is no difference. The mind turned inwards is the Self; turned outwards, it becomes the ego and all the world. The cotton made into various clothes, we call by various names. The gold made into various ornaments, we call by various names. But all the clothes are cotton and all the ornaments gold. The one is real, the many are mere names and forms. But the mind does not exist apart from the Self, i.e., it has no independent existence. The Self exists without the mind, never the mind without the Self.

Kaivalya Navaneeta has asked and answered six questions about maya. They are instructive.

The first question is: What is maya? And the answer is: It is anirvachaniya or indescribable.

The second question is: To whom does it come? And the answer is: To the mind or ego who feels that he is a separate entity, who thinks: ‘I do this’ or ‘this is mine’.

The third question is: Where does it come from and how did it originate? And the answer is: Nobody can say.

The fourth question is: How did it arise? And the answer is: Through non-vichara, through failure to ask: who am I?

The fifth question is: If the Self and maya both exist does not this invalidate the theory of Advaita? The answer is: It need not, since maya is dependent on the Self as the picture is on the screen. The picture is not real in the sense that the screen is real.

The sixth question is: If the Self and maya are one, could it not be argued that the Self is of the nature of maya, that is illusory? And the answer is: No; the Self can be capable of producing illusion without being illusory. A conjuror may create for our entertainment the illusion of people, animals and things, and we see all of them as clearly as we see him; but after the performance he alone remains and all the visions he had created have disappeared. He is not a part of the illusion but is real and solid.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4637
Dear I,

Several things changed over the ages for worse, for example, this Astrology or Jyothishastra, was only used to find the Muhurtha times for perfomance of Yajnas/Homas alone and not for focasting a Humans past or future. I was never used for such purposes.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4638
Dear I,

this also shall pass.............




as just another thought........

so long individuality/thoughts lasts, these shall continue....

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4639
General topics / Re: Does a jnani have "moods"?
« on: January 18, 2010, 06:55:56 PM »
Dear I,

The one who has moods will bother to see about moods of others, and a one who is above moods, well what is 'mood' for him?

Mood exists for him who has various meanings for 'mood'.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4640
General topics / Re: Question about all paths to realize the Self
« on: January 18, 2010, 06:52:57 PM »
Dear I,

Jeevaatma has to merge with/into Paramaatma.

Now what this "merging" actually is, is a debatable topic for the Jeevatma/Saadhaka. The only instruction Bhagawan has given is to enquire "Who am I to whom these thoughts are arising to"; "who am I"

The rest what has to happen will happen, and let it happen, just stick to these teachings is our only duty or should be our only desire, why worry about what actually is "merging" is. Let it be what ever it is. Let us stick to our enquiry.

Bhagawan has said "The ordainer controls the fate of souls according to their destiny, what ever is destined to happen will happen, do what you many to prevent it and whatever is destined not to happen will not happen, try as you may to prevent it. The best course, therefore, is to remain Silent."

Salutations to Sri Ramana


4641
Dear I,

Perumal swami, came to Bhagawan and expressed all his guilt and said to Him that for all that he has done to Bhagawan, he is sure to go to hell, and then Bhagawan replied to him that He will also be there even in Hell. - He meaning the 'I' the eternal I is there everywhere! The Consciousness. Perfect Self.
 
Meaning, the 'I' which is eternal, Pefect Self is always present. be it one is a murderer or a great philanthropist, the Self remains unchanged. Whenever Bhagawan has told every devotee that He is there everywhere, or for that matter, his famous quote to one devotee who asked him tearfully that Bhagawan would leave them and go away very soon (beforehis death) for which Bhagawan said "Where can I go, I am here"

The 'I' which Bhagawan infers is not himself but the eternal 'I' which is the real Self of everyone. That Perfect Self itself is Ramana Maharshi.

The Self is ever there, the Self itself is Grace. Grace itself is Self.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4642
Dear I,

Bhagawan always welcomed controversies, and he would become happy because, atleast by the propaganda of such controversies, some large amount of visitors would reduce and only the genuine ones who surpass such thorns - controversies would only remain. He said this when one of his close devotees turned against him and tried so many things to tarnish Ramana Maharshi who remained unperturbed all through.

The point to note is that, Ramana's popularity grew leaps and bounds. He was totally independent and aloof of what was happening around him, and quite predictably, He was beginning to get some funds, and since he was never allowed to remain alone, for even if he went to Skandashram or Virupaksha he was still not left alone.

The so called Ashram just started automatically even without his original consent. It just propped up like a plant! And then there were so many devotees who were too enthusiastic about how the Ashram has to be run lest really even thought what Bhagawan really wants. Each one had their own ideas, and eventually, interests were contradictory, and there were ego clashes between them.

Originally, before an Ashram came up, Palaniswamy was having full control of Ashram and its activities, but then when his conduct was really questionable, Chinnaswami took over, Bhagawan just remained a witness to all these!

But only thing is that Bhagawan did not allow any more changes after Chinnaswami took over because, if any one were given authority, it would create ego clashes between other devotees as to why they were not given that job.

Many devotees were really not happy with even Chinnaswami's handling things as well. Bhagawan just let things be as they are. Not that any of them were bad, but that Bhagawan put more focus on the egos of the devotees, and let things be as they are!

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4643
Dear I,

How can anything ... thought or what ever ... take me away from myself ???!
I cannot be taken away from the Self ... no matter how many thoughts come or go!

Ideally, what you asked should be the question of the Self? But does the self ask question? Is it not the Mind here that is asking this?

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4644
Dear I,
:)

How can anything ... thought or what ever ... take me away from myself ???!
I cannot be taken away from the Self ... no matter how many thoughts come or go!

Just that the mind/ego/I will persist, continue. Where can you go?

The one that is saying - "How can anything ... thought or what ever ... take me away from myself ???!
I cannot be taken away from the Self ... no matter how many thoughts come or go!"
is just the mind

The one that is asking this is just Mind/thoughts itself.

Please see why this is popping up? this is the one and only agenda of Mind! to keep going on and on.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4645
Dear I,

Nothing much to contest in your pot. Just that:

Now, that which sees this Mind in play is not a Thought. This is not to be understood, this is a Fact to be Aware Of. The ultimate Seer never was a thought and never will be a thought. You cannot be a thought.

Subject and Object plays out a game in Your Light.

My intention is to not keep the cycle going on and on... It is endless. But still, what ever fact it may be, that - "Now, that which sees this Mind in play is not a Thought. This is not to be understood, this is a Fact to be Aware Of. The ultimate Seer never was a thought and never will be a thought. You cannot be a thought. " What I say is that - "Now, that which sees this Mind in play is not a Thought." still remains a thought now! The fact to be aware of it is just knowledge. That the ultimate seer was never a thought and never remains a thought is knowledge.

So long you are aware of so called ultimate seer, it is just thought. As awareness, what is there to to be aware off?

Who has this knowledge? is it the Self or You? Does the Self require any knowledge? but then who is having the knowledge of the ultimate seer then? it is Mind/Thought/I - It is just a thought.

Thoughts are ignorance and Knowledge also is ignorance. because both knowledge and ignorance belong only to the Mind.

The Self is neither Knowledge nor ignorance. In Nirvana Shatkam, Shankara sings:

Neither I am Mantra nor I am the Veda (knowledge)

The very attempt is going outwards.

Bhagawan has said:

"Outwardness of mind is ignorance and its inwards in happiness."

and even if it be that mind has the knowledge and fact about the ultimate seer, is actually Outwardness of mind. Mind inwards is Attempt-less, thoughtless.

Thoughts be it even knowledge of Brahman is still but a thought. Has to go. has to cease.

Just Be.

Any thought that springs up is taking you away from Tat. and if a thought springs up, we have to enquire "who am I to whom these thoughts arising?

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4646
Dear I,

I/mind agrees to most of what you have conveyed in your post, but I would like to point out the subtle-ness of the ego/mind...

The point to be grasped here is that the witnessing happens without any effort on your part. That is - there is no-one in control to make witnessing happen or not happen. There is no entity as you would like it to be and then disappear or whatever.

What I/mind is tying to point out is this - "The point to be grasped here is that the witnessing happens without any effort on your part." - it is again the same mind/ego which is concluding thus? please see introspect? Thoughts are building upon itself. It is only the mind/thoughts. It itself concludes that - "there is no-one in control to make witnessing happen or not happen." and again it is the same I/mind that concludes - "There is no entity as you would like it to be and then disappear or whatever."

Quote
The problem arises when the center is formed out of thoughts which feels itself because it borrows the subjectivity of Absolute (which again is You). Thoughts can't know You as world can't know senses. Only you can know thoughts. And in reality you are That always which appears as This (world).

Is it not again the same mind/thought/ego/I that is even concluding how the problem arising, and is it not itself giving out a reason - "when the center is formed out of thoughts which feels itself because it borrows the subjectivity of Absolute (which again is You). Thoughts can't know You as world can't know senses. Only you can know thoughts. And in reality you are That always which appears as This (world)."

By this what is happening is that by giving out such possible probable conclusions, the mind/ego/I forgets itself. Who is the 'I' that is coming out to such conclussions? This is more important than to analyse why the problem is arising. The very entity enquiring is Mind itself.

Quote
And because of Knowledge Self-realization (as it is called) is Possible.
It means that the question who am I? can only be answered through ever expanding Knowledge but not in a limited sense. An answer can't be defined in limited sense of mind.

all these points are so subtle, it is the same mind/thought that is concluding "It means that the question who am I? can only be answered through ever expanding Knowledge but not in a limited sense. An answer can't be defined in limited sense of mind." all though it is aware of its own limitedness -  "An answer can't be defined in limited sense of mind." So on one had it is aware that it cant know but still persists indulges in more and more thoughts.

Quote
Now we ask, to whom this Knowledge comes? And it will be known that to no-one it comes. And it needs not come because You yourself IS the Knoweldge. You are whole, complete and not separate like you imagine yourself to be. You are That.

Is it not the same mind/thought/I that concludes - "And it will be known that to no-one it comes. And it needs not come because You yourself IS the Knoweldge. You are whole, complete and not separate like you imagine yourself to be. You are That. "

It is the Mind/ego/I/thought itself that is saying that "You are That" - By saying thus, the mind/thought/I/ego is just able to continue for eternity - this is the agenda of Mind/thought.

Quote
What about individual self which is body-mind-intellect-ego which we consider to be us? This so called 'entity' is nothing more but a reflection Which is caused by Consciousness shining on bundle of experiences-impressions making up our minds. If experiences of past were positive our minds will be peaceful, if negative then our minds will be resentful and despairing. Thus, the ignorance is mental and emotional that arises because of identification with the mind i.e. the past. To experience and know our true, immediate, self-evident nature, the mirror of the mind should be clean and undistorted.
What is to be done? We can refer to shankaracharya work and conclude that:
To purify the mind we need to become mindful of Self ignorance by watching our thoughts, monitoring our feelings, and observing our speech.  After examining a particular misconception discard it as “not Self.”  The verse calls for “constant” practice of Knowledge because Self ignorance continually manifests in our Consciousness as the four following limiting concepts, major limbs on the tree of non-apprehension from which myriad minor branches grow.
These self-limiting concepts, referred to as “not Self” are:
1. I am the body
2. I am the mind
3. I am the intellect
4. I am the Ego

Is it not again the same mind/thoughts that is working out some answers here? "This so called 'entity' is nothing more but a reflection Which is caused by Consciousness shining on bundle of experiences-impressions making up our minds. If experiences of past were positive our minds will be peaceful, if negative then our minds will be resentful and despairing. Thus, the ignorance is mental and emotional that arises because of identification with the mind i.e. the past. To experience and know our true, immediate, self-evident nature, the mirror of the mind should be clean and undistorted."

Quote
What is to be done? We can refer to shankaracharya work and conclude that:
To purify the mind we need to become mindful of Self ignorance by watching our thoughts, monitoring our feelings, and observing our speech.  After examining a particular misconception discard it as “not Self.”  The verse calls for “constant” practice of Knowledge because Self ignorance continually manifests in our Consciousness as the four following limiting concepts, major limbs on the tree of non-apprehension from which myriad minor branches grow.
These self-limiting concepts, referred to as “not Self” are:
1. I am the body
2. I am the mind
3. I am the intellect
4. I am the Ego

Please see, why the need is arising "What is to be done?" to whom is it arising? is it not arising to the mind itself? so mind itself is deciding that it should read Adi Shankaaracharya, etc...

It is again the Mind/Ego/thought/I that examines so called misconceptions and discards thoughts as "Not-Self"

What is most important is that the thought forgets that it itself is the Mind/Thought/I instead what it does is go externally, analyse, examines scriptures etc,.. and arrives at come conclusions etc... so that it can keep going.

The questions/answers themselves are the problem! The Mind/thought/I/Ego is nothing but questions and answers.

And it is important to know that the one that one who will again be trying to stop these questions and answers is just thoughts/mind itself.

Please see, how subtly, the Mind/thoughts/Ego is going outwards. This reply when you read is again thoughts/mind.

The only duty the Mind or desire or doing it can do is that to stick to only this alone:

"Who am 'I' to whom these thoughts are arising?" is the only thing to be done after the mind/thoughts/I realises its own reality - its limitedness.

the maximum the mind/thought/ego can do is to realise its own limitedness and remain humble and this is true Sharanaagati! When this has been realised, the very need to anslyse further will end for the Mind/thoughts and then Mind/thoughts will humbly stick to "Who am I to whom these thoughts are arising to?"

All these are all again thoughts/Mind.

I/Mind/Ego/Thought admit that my responding to these thoughts, I/Mind/thoughts are just building further on thoughts. All these questions and answers are just a fuel for thoughts.

"Who am I to whom these thoughts are arising?"

Salutations to Sri Ramana


4647
Dear I,

But in reality an action can happen even without thinking before/after an actual event. It just happens. And not even iota of any kind of entity is involved. It is called non-doership. Again, like baby is being fed but is not aware that 'I am drinking a milk', though there can be an awareness that he is being fed.

What you say is just as good as the Swapna (State) or dream state. Its like some events take place in your dream, themselves involuntarily, where You are not here physicallly, but events take place.

So long You are able to perceive the so called events, the perceiver has to be enquired, who is perceiving these events, who is it that is perceiving that these events are taking place without even thinking and doing? That is very important!

It is just like a sleep with dream, you are there before you slept and then you are there when you wake up. This is just as good as a dream.

The subtle thing to notice here is that, the Mind/Ego/Thought/I is trying to identify a way out that events take place themselves without actually its own involvement so that It - Mind/Thoughts/Ego/I can just continue for ever.

These things, which the mind says - thinking without thinking, doing without doing, etc... How is it able to know this? is not there an entity who is cognising all these events? this entity is mind/thoughts/ego/I itself. Otherwise, how is it able to tell that events are taking place without actually any involvement? In the end what is the real consequence to the entity who is able to cognise all these so called - Thinking without Thinking, Doing without Doing, etc...

What does it matter to the entity whether the events take place or not? how does it affect it? what does it want out of these events? Even if it is involuntary? So long it is able to cognise these involuntary events, there is Mind/Thoughts/Ego/I - difference - Witness and Witnessed.

In the end these are just thoughts themselves again, Thoughts just generate thoughts after thoughts so that it can continue by creating many hypotheses in such ways so that it can remain a witness for ever - as in keep watching movies for ever, keep watching thoughts, thoughts watching thoughts!

Who is this entity? Who is the 'I' to whom all these thoughts are arising? Who am I

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4648
General topics / Re: How to watch the sense 'I am'
« on: January 14, 2010, 09:30:21 AM »
Dear I,

Are everyone of you, with your own posts/thoughts, and me with this question/thought, just a creation of my mind? just a very elaborated thought complex of my mind to keep me away from...

Honestly, don't ask, find it out yourself, just stick to Bhagawan's words - "To whom are these thoughts arising to?" "Who am 'I' to whom these thoughts are arising to"

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4649
Humour / Who gets the Dog
« on: January 14, 2010, 08:44:58 AM »
A clergyman was walking down the street when he came upon a group of about a dozen boys, all of them between 10 and 12 years of age.

The group surrounded a dog. Concerned lest the boys were hurting the dog, he went over and asked "What are you doing with that dog?"

One of the boys replied, "This dog is just an old neighborhood stray. We all want him, but only one of us can take him home. So we've decided that whichever one of us can tell the biggest lie will get to keep the dog."

Of course, the reverend was taken aback. "You boys shouldn't be having a contest telling lies!" he exclaimed. He then launched into a ten minute sermon against lying, beginning, "Don't you boys know it's a sin to lie," and ending with, "Why, when I was your age, I never told a lie."

There was dead silence for about a minute. Just as the reverend was beginning to think he'd gotten through to them, the smallest boy gave a deep sigh and said, "All right, give him the dog."

Salutations to Sri Ramana

4650
Humour / Just a Second
« on: January 14, 2010, 08:42:46 AM »
Dear I,

I got this e-mail some time back, enjoy:

A man was walking through a forest pondering life. He walked, pondered, walked, and pondered. He felt very close to nature and even close to God. He felt so close to God that he felt if he spoke God would listen.

So he asked, "God, are you listening?"

And God replied, "Yes my son, I am here."

The man stopped and pondered some more.

He looked towards the sky and said, "God, what is a million years to you?"

God replied, "Well my son, a second to me is like a million years to you."

So the man continued to walk and to ponder... walk and ponder... Then he looked to the sky again and said, "God, what is a million dollars to you?"

And God replied, "My son, my son...a penny to me is like a million dollars to you. It means almost nothing to me. It does not even have a value it is so little."

The man looked down, pondered a bit and then looked up to the sky and said, "God, can I have a million dollars?"

And God replied, "In a second."

Salutations to Sri Ramana

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