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Messages - Nagaraj

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Dear Ramana,

This is not related to your post. Just wanted to say that it would do you immense good if you are able to talk to somebody, if there are any Ramana centre near your place. I say because, the writing medium is very limited. I really appreciate your earnest search, as you have been questioning in spite of agreements and dis agreements. This is the true spirit!

Have you ever been to India? Ramanashram? You must please do so, at the earliest, i am able to see the hunger in you, the fire, which will push you beyond your grasp.

No matter how many exchanges you may have, it is still no par to the silence, especially experienced at Bhagavan's Sannidhi.

May be i would share some thoughts on your post tomorrow.

Meanwhile, here I share Krishna's verse from BG: Chap 4, 34:

tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah

Making Sashtanga Namaskar, i.e., prostration, complete surrender or with total faith, questioning the guru, serving him, learn what this Jnana is. Then, those Jnanis that have attained the real knowledge of the Sad-Vastu (Brahma) will give you upadesha (instruction) of Jnana.

Salutations to Bhagavan

Dear Udai,

In this context, I would like to reproduce here, enlightening and very thought provoking talks given by Brahma Sri Nochur Venkataraman, as under:

For realising God, the first requisite is a burning desire to do so. This is what every Mahan comes into the world to teach. It is not necessary that we know who or what God is. When the time is right, He will reveal Himself to us by sending a Sadguru into our lives who will give us the requisite Upadesha and confer liberation. But the pre requisite to all this is the ceaseless Taapam - loosely translated, a burning desire, which makes us extremely uncomfortable in our present state of being. What is required is the thought process which reprimands us for enjoying so many sensory pleasures while age and time slip through our hands; taking congnisance of that fact that we lack seriousness in what is perhaps the most serious thing in our lives and spend our lives instead on other worthless pursuits.
To illustrate this point, a story that Buddha said may be used - A man who is walking on a mountain, loses his balance and falls. He finds a rope to hang on to from which he hopes to come to safety. Above him stands a tiger that was in hot pursuit. Below lies a dangerous depth, into which if he were to fall, not even a shred of his body may be recovered. And is his rope strong enough? No .... There is a rat gnawing away at the rope!! This is the predicament of the man. And in the midst of this, there is a drop of honey that drips from a honeycomb. Impervious to the danger that he is in, this man tries to reach for that honey!! This is exactly human existence. Fraught with dangers on all sides. The rat called Time is gnawing away at our lives, and we seek momentary pleasure in watching television and mindless gossip wasting an already too short lifespan!!
Bhartruhari says in a sarcastic manner, that we in the world are so busy, engrossed in the meaningless day to day pursuits that we do not have the time to look inwards or strive for emancipation! How ironic!

आदित्यस्य गतागतैरहरहः संक्षीयते जीवितं
व्यापारैर्बहुकार्यभारगुरुभिः कालोऽपि न ज्ञायते ।
दृष्ट्वा जन्मजराविपत्तिमरणं त्रासश्च नोत्पद्यते
पीत्वा मोहमयीं प्रमादमदिरामुन्मत्तभूतं जगत् ॥४३॥

The sun rises and sets, each day goes past and the only assurance we have is that the day that is gone shall never come back again, time slips through our fingers and what do we do? He says that life is going out consistently like water which is going out of a leaky mud pot, but we are busy immersed in the day to day affairs of life (व्यापारैर्बहुकार्यभारगुरुभिः). (very seriously engaged in various duties) We claim that we are so busy that we do not have the time to think of God!!! Some people say, "I wish I could come to your Satsangam, but I am so busy, so many duties, I am not able to. Please forgive me". The tone that they use seems to imply that they consider coming to the Satsangam a favour that they bestow on others (the person who is giving the pravachanam)
This is how people pass through life, blithely unaware of Time slipping through their fingers, never to come back again. Is it that they never get an opportunity to contemplate on all this or does God does not remind us about these? No .... God reminds them in various ways - four ways to be exact(दृष्ट्वा जन्मजराविपत्तिमरणं) We see children being born, a man in the prime of his youth move on to Old age, calamities, disaster and accidents, and then finally, the clincher of all - Death. He says he is amazed at how people remain unafraid in the midst of all this. And why is it that man is not afraid? He is inebriated with the toddy of ignorance. That intoxication has spoilt his mental balance and so he manages to remain unafraid (त्रासश्च नोत्पद्यते) The world is caught in a fit of madness, he says. Man is drunk on ignorance and his thinking faculties are dulled by it (पीत्वा मोहमदिरां) This world is gotten mad (उन्मत्तभूतं जगत्) If men were drunk on Bhakthi it would be fine. That is an ecstasy which uplifts, but unfortunately man is drunk on ignorance and his thinking faculties are dulled by it. Which is why he refuses to think, is unable to think in fact, about time which is going past too fast.
But what the sages say is that a man should strive to Realise God with the same urge with which a man would run towards water, had his head caught fire (प्रदीप्त शिरहा जलराशिमिव). It is with the same sense of urgency that one should pursue God – Realisation (समिप्पाणिः श्रोत्रियम् ब्रह्मनिष्ठमुपगच्छेत्). And this samsara, has been as disconcerting as fire on one's head for Bhakthas and Rishis.

Salutations to Bhagavan

General topics / Re: The Siva Linga
« on: March 21, 2012, 03:18:28 PM »
Dear Sir,

excellent summary.

Salutations to Bhagavan

General topics / Re: The Siva Linga
« on: March 21, 2012, 11:12:31 AM »
Dear Subramanian Sir,

Very few may even take notice, but, if we look very subtly at the life of Sri Bhagavan, it is only that of a deep Bhathi, of that of Nayanmars, but to the world, Bhagavan looks like a Jnani, because, there is truly no difference between Bhathi and Jnana.

Bhagavan stood transfixed in between the pillars of the Meenakshi Temple at Madurai before the Nayanmars and shed tears of ecstasy, of joy.

When Bhagavan came to Arunachala, he first entered the sanctum sactoriam and hugged Arunachaleshwarar so tightly.

Sri Nochur says, Bhagavan's Arunachala Ashtakam is verily his own autobiography, in it Bhagavan sings, (in parts)

From my unthinking childhood, the immensity of Arunachala had shone in my awareness. But even when I learnt from someone that it was only Tiruvannamalai, I did not realize its meaning. When it stilled my mind and drew me to itself and I came near, I saw that it was stillness absolute. (1)

You alone exist, O Heart, the radiance of Awareness. In You a power mysterious dwells, a power which without You is nothing. (6)

In the Decad, Padigam,

He simply expressed Ninnishtam, Enishtam, Your will is mine!

The Padigam is simply the ecstatic joy outpouring of Sri Bhagavan, he sings,

If now you fail to fill me with love of you and if you let me perish in this loveless state, would it be fair? O Bliss that springs from Love, Nectar welling up in lovers' hearts, O joy which is my only refuge, your will is mine. Here, in this surrender, is pure joy, Lord of my life. (2)

Sri Bhagavan prayed to Arunachala to cure his mother from illness, subtly, cure her from the illness of innumerable illness of recurring births.

But usually, nobody takes immediate notice that Bhagavan was a great Bhatha first, generally people only attribute him as a great Jnani! This Bhagavan who outoured about such ecstatic joy of Bhakthi Rasa, at the same time also said that to a devotee when he was asked what he would ask God if he were to appear before him, that, I would ask God not have this Business of coming before me! :)

What is Jnani or Bhatha here? Can we attribute Bhagavan as a Jnani or Bhaktha? He who spoke of pure advaita, composed so many poems, like Shankara, who roared with poems like Nirvana shatkam, Dasa Shloki, Vivekachoodamani, etc... composed Shivaaparadhakshamapana Stothram, Bhavani Askhtakam, many Pancharathnams, etc...

The point is to look beyond these words of Bhakthi, Jnana, Yoga, Karma,

One who does real Bhakthi does not feel, I am doing Bhakthi, one who really meditates, does not feel he is a jnani, and one who does real Yoga, does not really feel he is a Yogi and one who does his karma truly, does not feel he is a Karma Yogi.

Salutations to Bhagavan

General topics / Re: The Siva Linga
« on: March 21, 2012, 09:55:19 AM »

Bhagawan Ramana Maharshi says in Talks:

Jnana Marga and Bhakti Marga (prapatti) are one and the same. Self-surrender leads to realisation just as enquiry does. Complete self-surrender means that you have no further thought of ‘I’. Then all your predispositions (samskaras) are washed off and you are free. You should not continue as a separate entity at the end of either course.

There is absolutely no difference between Bhakti Marga and Jnana Marga. Only a True Bhakta is a True Jnani and only a True Jnani is a True Bhakta. Now whether a Bhatha or a Jnani, he automaticallly becomes a Yogi as well, as his Kundallini is channelised automatically. Hence he is also a Raja Yogi. There can be no doubt that only such a person is a true Karma Yogi.

Only a True Jnani can have complete Sharanagathi. and only a True Bhaktha can be a true Jnani, can know all that is to be known.

Salutations to Bhagavan

General topics / Re: The Siva Linga
« on: March 20, 2012, 10:28:19 PM »
Dear Friends,

my understanding is that there is no difference between Jnana and bhakthi. Bhakthi is Jnana Matha, said Bhagavan. One is never without the other. To diferentiate between Bhathi and Jnana is only ignorance.

in my humble understanding, it is not jnana, when we say, Jnana without Bhakthi is blind, it is ego, that is blind and not jnana. Jnana can never be blind!

True Jnana should not be inferred as without Bhava. Jnana does have Bhava. Jnana is not something like stone. That is a misunderstanding about jnana. Bhava is not an exclusive property of Bhathi alone. we need to open our horizons and open forth.

All these only originates, only if one sees difference between Jnana and Bhakthi.

there is no difference!

Why segregate people as Jnani or Bhathan? why not see the same soul in everybody?

Sarva Bhoota Nivaasosi, Vasudeva Namostute.

In Every being, resides, Vasudeva, I prostrate to him.

Whether a Bhakthan or a Jnani, one should see only Vasudeva or Self in everybody. Only if we see the gross body all these notions come about!

Even if i did say that the Self is only Abhisheka Priya, it is only Atma Linga, is he not there in us? More than anywhere else?

The Bhaktha who does rituals prays

deho devAlayaH proktaH jIvo devaH sanAtanaH
tyajedaj~nAna nirmAlyam soham bhAvena pUjayet
The body is a temple. The jIva is the eternal Lord.  May one remove the withered flowers in the form of ignorance and worship the Lord, knowing that He is non-separate from oneself.

I reproduce this wonderful story of Namdev as narrated by Bhagavan

Devotee : Is it possible to speak to Iswara as Sri Ramakrishna
Ramana Maharshi : When we can speak to each other why should we not speak to Iswara in the same way?

Devotee :Then why does it not happen with us?
Ramana Maharshi : It requires purity and strength of mind and practice in meditation.

Devotee : Does God become evident if the above conditions
Ramana Maharshi : Such manifestation is as real as your own reality. In other words, when you identify yourself with the body as in jagrat you see gross objects; when in subtle body or in mental plane as in swapna, you see objects equally subtle; in
the absence of identification as in sushupti you see nothing.

The objects seen bear a relation to the state of the seer. The
same applies to visions of God. By long practice the figure of God, as meditated upon, appears in dream and may later appear in jagrat also.

Devotee : Is that the state of God-realisation?
Ramana Maharshi : Listen to what happened once years ago.

Vithoba found Namdev had not yet realised the Supreme Truth and wanted to teach him. When Jnaneswar and Namdev returned from their pilgrimage, Gora Kumbhar gave a feast to all the saints in his place and among them were Jnaneswar and Namdev. At the feast Jnaneswar, in collusion with Gora, told Gora publicly, “You are a potter, daily engaged in making pots and testing them to see which are properly baked and which are not.

These pots before you (i.e., the saints) are the pots of Brahma. See which of these are sound and which not.”
Thereupon Gora said, “Yes, Swami, I shall do so,” and took up
the stick with which he used to tap his pots to test their soundness.

Holding it aloft in his hand he went to each of his guests and
tapped each on the head as he usually did to his pots. Each guest
humbly submitted to such tapping. But when Gora approached
Namdev, the latter indignantly called out, “You potter, what do
you mean by coming to tap me with that stick?”

Gora thereupon told Jnaneswar, “Swami, all the other pots have been properly baked. This one (i.e. Namdev) alone is not yet properly baked.” All the assembled guests burst into laughter.

Namdev felt greatly humiliated and ran up to Vitthala (the deity he worshipped) with whom he was on the most intimate terms, playing with him, eating with him, sleeping with him and so on. Namdev complained of this humiliation which had happened to him, the closest friend and companion of Vitthala.

Vitthala (who of course knew all this) pretended to sympathise with him, asked for all the details of the happenings at Gora’s house and after hearing everything said, “Why should you not have kept quiet and submitted to the tapping, as all the others did? That is why all this trouble has come.”

Thereupon Namdev cried all the more and said, “You also want to join the others and humiliate me. Why should I have submitted like the others? Am I not your closest friend, your child?” Vitthala said, “You have not yet properly understood the truth, and you won’t understand if I tell you. But go to the saint who is in a ruined temple in such and such a forest. He will be able to give you enlightenment.”
Namdev accordingly went there and found an old, unassuming man sleeping in a corner of the temple with his feet on a Sivalingam. Namdev could hardly believe this was the man from whom he – the companion of Vitthala – was to gain enlightenment. However, as there was none else there, Namdev went near the man and clapped his hands.

The old man woke up with a start and seeing Namdev, said, “Oh –
you are Namdev whom Vitthala has sent here. Come!” Namdev was dumbfounded and began to think, “This must be a great man.” Still he thought it was revolting that any man however great, should be resting his feet on a lingam.

He asked the old man, “You seem to be a great personage. But is it proper for you to have your feet on a lingam?” The old man replied,
“Oh, are my feet on a lingam? Where is it? Please remove my feet elsewhere.” Namdev removed the feet and put them in various places. Wherever they were put, there was a Sivalingam.

Finally, he took them on his lap and he himself became a Sivalingam! Then he realised the truth and the old gentleman said, “Now you can go back.”

Bhagavan added, “It is to be noted that only when he surrendered himself, and touched the feet of his guru, enlightenment came. After this final enlightenment Namdev returned to his house and for some days did not go to Vitthala at the temple, though it had been his habit not only to visit Vitthala every day, but to spend most of his time with Vitthala at the temple.

So, after a few days, Vitthala went to Namdev’s house and like a guileless soul, enquired how it was that Namdev had forgotten him and never visited him. Namdev replied, ‘No more of your fooling me. I know now. Where is the place where you are not! To be with you, should I go to the temple? Do I exist apart from you?’ Then Vitthala said, ‘So you now understand the truth. That is why you had to be sent for this final lesson’.”

Salutations to Bhagavan

Some question which some sadhakas may be are interested in:

1. Are Self-inquiry and Surrender dependent on me? Or God's Grace?
2. Should I try to cure myself from disease or to stay and see what will happen. If I am predestined to live I will live?
3. Should I help others? If I don't want it's probably my destiny. Ishvara should help them. I will do what I intend - to go to the disco, to go out with friend, to drink and so on.
4. If I am a serial killer or a prostitute, should I change my job or can I continue it doing Self-inquiry?

I would be happy if you answer them. They are not provoking. They are just a part of life.

Dear Ramana,

I would express myself to your questions as below:

To all your questions above, Bhagavan has always given least importance to questions, but only the questioner alone is of paramount importance. The only question He would entertain is who is the questioner, or, who am I?

To all other questions, there may be many answers, yes or no or may be and so on, answers to these questions that you have raised are more given so based on the society and culture that is prevalant, one would do what is best and what is seen as good by the Elders.

If one seriously discerns this, his station of life will not be a problem. When the truth hits you, you will automatically stop going to disco, or one would stop prostitution, etc..

But on a practical level as you want to observe, i have mentioned my views below in blue:

  • Are Self-inquiry and Surrender dependent on me? Or God's Grace? avan arulaale avan thaal vanangi - we can worship only on his grace alone. Without His grace, even the thought about God will not sprout
  • Should I try to cure myself from disease or to stay and see what will happen. If I am predestined to live I will live? depends on your conviction, one with doubts takes medicine, one with complete faith leaves it to God
  • Should I help others? If I don't want it's probably my destiny. Ishvara should help them. I will do what I intend - to go to the disco, to go out with friend, to drink and so on. Help if you feel you want to help, go to disco if you feel you want, worship if you feel you want to, the thing is that, when you truly See the truth, all your Doshas or faults drop on their own accord without your effort on the merit of your jnana.
  • If I am a serial killer or a prostitute, should I change my job or can I continue it doing Self-inquiry? the moment you began to question yourself, you will be shown light, you don't have to worry about changing your job or continue, the taapam or the pain of your guilt will itself purify you, take you away from your guilt.

Salutations to Bhagavan

Dear Ramana,

If there is a basket containig various fruits and sweets and other items, and if we are given the basket, we take all those that we like and leave away all those items that we don't like. In the same way. Please feel free to accept any thing that is conducive to your understanding and your beliefs. Moderation is a very personal thing. Moderation is not common for all.

For one, doing 1008 japa could be a moderation, but for another, just doing 32 japa could be moderation.

 आ नो भद्राः क्रतवो यन्तु विश्वतः / A no bhadraaH kratavo yantu vishvataH (Let good (thoughts) come from everywhere, from all the world)

This much is a minimum requirement of a true Sadhaka.

As for that matter, what i have said is not something new, or some thing, that i have said from thin air, Bhagavan has also said so, in Ulladu Narpadu, Verse 19, as also quoted by Subramanian Sir:

All discussions about free will and destiny are only for those who lack discrimination. For one who experiences the source of
both destiny and free will, will under the One Principle and after realizing That, they will become silent and will no longer bother
about destiny and free will.

For us Vichari's enquirers, may feel very exhaustive to see Bhakthi Maarga Sadhakas, who day night sing kirthans and do nama japa, that may look for us some extreme exertions, but for them, it is a very personal thing. We can never know.

If a Sadhaka is to goes astray, if he is only bound to go astray or bound to become a  spiritual sluggards, or become victims of religious fanaticism, he goes so, because of sole reason of his ego, and, i may be only an instrument for such a persons to face adverse situation, which also is only a divine play, so be it, if that is what is my prarabdha karma, if that is what God is making me enact! No matter where one goes, one comes back to the same position once again. But why take burden of somebody else, when we find it difficult to manage our own burden. God Almighty is there, he knows who has to face what, i am sure, my expressions can never make somebody extremist, as not even an atom moves without His will, who am I, such a puny?  :) here. He knows, he takes care.

Hence anybody going astray or becoming spiritual sluggard is only our interpretation, but we never know what internal churning is going on within them!

If person x experiences pain because of some act of person y, then person y is really to not be blamed, for he is only an instrument for the person x to face his Karma. (thoughts from Bhagavad Gita)

Infact, in your expression, in your query, you express fears of such a 'state' without any freewill and destiny. It is certainly a terrible thing to face initially. But when we truly realise what freewill really is and destiny really is, we have no option there. Infact, it is an exalted state of a devotee, who has come to a conclusion of,

Not I, but thou,
Not I, but only thou!

where is place for 'I'? where I raises, everything raises along with it.

Moreover, we need not worry about the masses, let Guru deal with the masses, Bhagavan is there for masses, he will take care, we need not worry if somebody may become spiritual sluggard, or religious fanatic. But yes, if such a person comes and humbly requests you to show him true light, then we can share with such a one, what ever we know.

these are my humble thoughts.

Salutations to Bhagavan

General Discussion / Re: testing times of life and vedanta
« on: March 19, 2012, 02:11:50 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

Good reflective post :)

Sufferings are said to be of 3 types as said in the scriptures:

Adhyatmika, the sufferings of one's own body and mind caused due to 3 Gunas;
Adi-bhautika, the suffering due to other living beings, Fate; and
Adi-daivika, the sufferings due to natural circumstances like heat or cold, or earthquakes.

What is in our hands is the Adhyatmika, which is caused by the 3 doshas, ie. Satwa, Rajas and Tamas, this we have in our hands to elevate ourselves upwards. While the other two, Adibhautika is fate, and, Adi Daivika is sufferings caused due to the natural disasters, are not in our hands!

We need to always put our efforts towards the Satwa qualities. When this Tapas increases, ones ability to cope with sufferings and the clarity to deal with our day to day happenings becomes effortless!

Our Shastras have laid down various nithyakarmas keeping this very aspect in mind. The various rituals etc... are carefully set for our Chitta Shuddhi or purification of our mind.

Salutations to Bhagavan

General topics / Re: The Self-Effulgent Truth
« on: March 19, 2012, 11:22:45 AM »
Dear Subramanian Sir,

Such beautiful verse, Once when his Kaupinam was so badly torn that, he had to remove one thread from the same Kaupinam itself and selected a nice thorn from the bushes and made a nice beautiful needle thread and stitched the holes in his Kaupinam. He also went on to say, how Muruganar, in ecstasy wrote a verse on this, as follows:

cod-piece – the cloth with a thousand holes, which was immortalized in poetry by Muruganar as “Indra” for Indra has a thousand eyes!

Still enakku orkurai undo? still what deficit do I have? what deficit do I have?

I wish pray we are all blessed to sing

enakku orkurai undo? What deficit do I have?

Salutations to Bhagavan

General Discussion / Re: extreme tendencies sometimes
« on: March 19, 2012, 11:15:09 AM »
Dear Sir,

this is the essence of Gayathri Mantra

Salutations to Bhagavan

General topics / Re: Discussion on Horoscope
« on: March 19, 2012, 11:07:12 AM »
Dear friends,

Thanks to all for sharing your views.

after having contemplated over this topic for some time, i have come to conclusion that yes, the horoscope speaks of one future, but, the power or the urge of ones own sankalpa is even more powerful than the 9 planets. This is certain.

For a person of Dridha sankalpa, so strong willed, to utilise this life itself for the only and sole purpose of realisation of God, shall not fit into the realms of the 9 planets.

Arunagirinathar sings in Kandar Alangaram:

nAL en seiyum, vinaithAn en seiyum,
enai nAdi vantha kOL en seiyum,
kodung kUtRu en seiyum,
kumarEsar iru thALum, silambum, sathangkaiyum, thaNdaiyum, shaNmugamum,
thOLum, kadambum, enakku munnE vanthu thOndRidinE

Which means that bad days, or even Karma or Grahas or curses cant do anything if The Lotus Feet, the ornaments like Silambu, sathangai and Thandai that make nice sounds and decorate His Feet, His Beautiful Six Faces, Twelve Shoulders and The wonderful Garland of Kadamba Flower Decorating Lord Kumaresa appear in front of our eyes.

meaning, the days, stars, or planets cannot do anything adverse to one, one who holds the feet of Lord Muruga.

But it is of paramount importance to note this - one who holds the feet of Lord Muruga.

Salutations to Bhagavan

General topics / The Self-Effulgent Truth
« on: March 19, 2012, 08:02:03 AM »
The Supreme Brahman is defined as Om Tat Sat and this indicates His omnipresence — the all-pervasive quality, not merely of space but also time, and hence it is synonymous with Eternal Truth. The quest for Truth is thus the pursuit of salvation. This Truth is always unchanging and also elusive. Hence to comprehend it sincere seeking is indispensible, and along with this, Jnana and Vairagya are also essential.

But these are not easily attained and in the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna states that perhaps after many Janmas, a Jivatma, who remains steadfast in his pursuit of salvation, may attain this, pointed out Sri K. Srinivasan in a lecture. Like a small insect caught in a swirl of water and unable to get out of it, the Jivatma gropes in the cycle of birth. Human beings have a past and future and human birth provides an opportunity to make use of the present to fashion one's future — the chance to avoid further birth.

When in this world, the compulsion to live in it imposes an involvement with it. Even repeated instruction from preceptors, discussions and debates on this subject, etc., are not very helpful to assimilate the truth because the mind carries with it the strong vasanas and imprints. These act as hurdles, adding to the confusion and ignorance inherent in us. Man is endowed with the power to think, reflect and judge.

This capacity is directed to worldly matters. The logic of reasoning is not helpful when the enquiry is directed to the metaphysical and esoteric truths of the Self. The transition from the known to the unknown is possible only with faith and intuitive realisation. Though the sense organs chase the sense objects of the world, the possibility of directing the senses inwards to recognise the effulgent Self that is immortal is available to human beings.

The Self is the essence of consciousness. It propels the body-mind-complex and is self-effulgent. It can reveal the objects but it cannot reveal itself. Consciousness is the power that causes the eye to see, the mind to think, the ears to hear, etc. Once the hurdles are removed, truth automatically shines.

(The Hindu Newspaper)

Salutations to Bhagavan

Dear Subramanian Sir,

Thanks for specifying those talks Nos. it is very helpful for quick reference.  :)

Dear nondual,

what you have observed is correct. But my personal observation is that just the knowing is not enough.

We may analyse and be able to solve these contemplations like a math problem. We may even arive at the solution. But it still is not the end! Even the observation which you are so rightfully arrived at as "This fine line exist as long as we believe that we are the doer. The doing is happening without us (Self)." leaves a pandoras box open.

i am forced to raise some very fundamental questions: What is belief or believing? How do we ever know whether we believe or not, belief itself is something very vague. we believe because of something, belief always corresponds with some proof, or evidence, the proof could be just anything, like, it is my tradition, so I believe, my forefathers have believed, so I believe, I trust my intelligence, intellect, so I believe, this is only belief. it is not by itself, hence it is a failure in filling the vacuum!

i contemplate and question, how can we trust 'belief' how does it help if one believes or not, for it corresponds with some proof, and, it is not by itself.

If we have to believe on something inorder to gain something, then the Self is still deluded.

Even the sayings about doerships pertain to the troubled mind alone, and it certainly has nothing to do with the Self and it does not fill the gap, vacuum, that is. All logic, rational, jnana or bhakthi is unable to fill this gap or vacuum!

I cannot avoid saying this, but there is something beyond all these. There are many Sadhakas who arrive so close to truth just like how we arrive to some exalted conclusions here, but, it is my personal observation that that is not the end.

There have been only handful of realised jnanis or souls, barely countable in our fingers over centuries.

I am sure, many many devotees and sadhakas have arrived at several conclusions that we arrive here so close. but still that is not so.

There is some gap, vacuum, that does not get filled by anything, even these exalted analyses and contemplations or even Bhakthi too, doesn't fill it. Even the highest logical and rational conclusions is not filling it, even any kind of Bhakthi act, also is not filling this gap, excepting to giving some temporary solace, to eventually give up facing the unlimitedness or the expanse of that gap or vacuum or what ever we may wish to infer.

Salutations to Bhagavan

Dear Nondual,

Its funny, because, even if we want to Not Do anything, that becomes another effort  :D

Neither DO nor NOT DO

the fine line in between, the fine line in between!

(but these are only words!)

Salutations to Bhagavan

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