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Messages - Nagaraj

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General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 04, 2012, 11:11:39 PM »
:) Dear Sri Nagaraj, I truly feel the same. Many times,i see something,react to quickly,and after 10 min i feel sorry for said that in the first place. Not that i have bad intention in the first place,but sometimes is better not to say anything. Love and Compassion dont have a price,and nothing is more important then that! With love and prayers...

Very True Dear Jewel, it is for the same very reason, i quit the forum more than twice, that it is always better to not say anything at all but God has different plans, he somehow bought me back, again and again, and i don't know for what, and makes me say so many things!! Gods must be crazy :D but am here today, like a puppet!

Jewel, you know, it feels wonderful to let go, and with it, springs forth peace, freedom from the grip of mind. Am true grateful to the Lord, for this moment.

The grace of Guru is immeasurable, his compassion cannot be grasped. May He Bless everybody!

General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 04, 2012, 10:40:36 PM »
Dear Sri Jewel,

Yes i wanted to communicate my view, that i feel is the truth, but certainly i do not want to communicate it at the cost of hurting you. You see, these exchanges have taken a different turn. It is the recognition of that which is much superior that is mutual Love and Compassion and it supersedes everything. I certainly do not want to express the my truth by compromising this fundamental root that is mutual love and compassion which is the purpose of all Dharmas. That truth is not truth that brings disharmony. To me, this recognition, this discernment is the essence of Dharma. The purpose of Dharma is to only generate universal love and universal compassion. I discern, this ought never to be forgotten at any cost.

Dear Jewel :)

with prayers and love,

Dear Tushnim, Anil, Friends,

While i may have expressed my views, with some quotes of Sri Bhagavan, i only see this going endlessly. i discern that unless this questioning mind and answering mind subsides, nothing is fruitful no matter how much grandeur the exchanges may bring forth. Therefore, I withdraw myself from this current discussion.

General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 04, 2012, 10:12:10 PM »
Sri Jewel,

I think it would do both of us good, by bringing Bhagavan before us. I do not really enjoy this writing medium, as it always fails to convey the intention behind the words that are used to communicate and generally is miss communicated. Lets surrender both our views at the Holy feet of Bhagavan, and leave it to him to teach us what ever is the truth.

General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 04, 2012, 09:57:13 PM »
And Sri Jewel,

No, i have not said anything that is my own opinion. I have substantiated every post of mine with the words of Sages and Vedas as well.

Only you have to provide your substantiation, with regards to your expression that Dharma is not necessary for Liberation. I am sure No Sage would advocate such an attitude. I would like to conclude my views from this discussion with this.

with prayers,

General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 04, 2012, 09:42:25 PM »
Dear Sri Jewel,

It does make a difference by what we express openly. Certain things are best left behind the curtains. We just don't go about letting out in open certain things such as what you have expressed "Dharma is not necessary for liberation" If there is such a person, God will guide him. But we do not come in open and say something that is contrary to general public standard. You have to say only that which is in good as a whole having the larger interest of people in view.

There are sayings by Sages, who say how to speak Truth:

सत्यम् ब्रूयात् प्रियम् ब्रूयात् न ब्रूयात् सत्यमप्रियम् |
प्रियम् नानृतं ब्रूयात् एष धर्मः सनातनः ||

Speak truth in such a way that it should be pleasing to others. Never speak truth, which is unpleasant to others. Never speak untruth, which might be pleasant. This is the path of eternal morality, sanatana dharma.

To speak truth is an eternal value irrespective of time and place. But the expression of truth should be accompanied by two conditions.

Firstly, it should be presented in a loving manner and
secondly it should be spoken for the betterment of others.

How you speak is as important as what is said. Priyam means speech that does not hurt others. Hitam is something that is said for the good or betterment of others. One should be careful of speaking truth but not hurting others.

We should be careful in speaking the truth. The purpose should be good and the words used and the manners in which they are spoken are important. So the value of truthfulness is relative to a situation. According to the Indian scriptures while living in the world of relativity truth can be interpreted in many ways.

सत्यस्य वचनं श्रेय: सत्यादपि हितंवदेत् ।
यद्भूतहितमत्यन्तं ऐतत् सत्यं मतं मम ॥

Telling truth is recommended, but more than that, is telling those things, which are in interest of all. According to me (Naarada), thing which is beneficial to large community, is truth.

Subramanian Sir, here is the Thirukkural which you referred to:

பொய்மையும் வாய்மை யிடத்த புரைதீர்ந்த
நன்மை பயக்கும் எனின்.

If it will result in blemish-free good / benefit, even a lie can be considered to be true.

At all other times, it is wise to remain quiet, instead of expressing something that is contrary to General Dharma.

I would like to apologize, if i have hurt you. it was not intended.

General topics / Daya, Daana, Daama
« on: October 04, 2012, 09:32:12 PM »
I chanced to see Shankara TV, today and was surprised, Sri Bharatahi Theertha Swamigal Acharya narrated the story given in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, about Daanam, offerings. I was caught in doubts, about my posts, if i may be communicating anything wrong, and so forth. But as a grace, he confirmed my belief and understanding about the thoughts expressed on Dharma.

the story goes as follows:

In Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, the Asuras, Devas and Suras(humans) were very dissatisfied even though they had everything in abundance, the Devas had lot of money and enjoyments, the Asuras were doing good winning a lot of kingdoms, and the Suras(humans) were also harvesting nice crops. They all felt discontent and representatives of Asura, Devas and Suras went to Brahma and prayed for salvation from their wretchedness and then Brahma uttered three letters Da, Da, Da and vanished. The Asuras, Suras and Devas were confused as to what the words of Brahma meant! Then they returned back to their homes and began to ponder and contemplate on the Holy words of Brahma. And then finally they understood what it meant.

  • For Asuras, 'Da' meant Daya - to show Compassion and stop harassing people. Asuras are always short of Daya, compassion.
  • For Suras, 'Da' meant 'Daana' - to give, to share what they have amongst fellow human beings. Humans are always short of Giving.
  • For Devas, 'Da' menat 'Daama' - to be content(to show restraint) - to be happy with what ever they have and not crave for more of the same luxuries. Devas are always short of restraint

Asuras, Suras and Devas had grown discontent because, they became greedy, inhuman and full of pride. and by this they realised the truth of their nature.

Those days, we have read in puranas that Asuras used to drop meat in yajnas and homas and spoil the tapas of Sadhus. Today it is our minds that drop in the fowl thoughts and desires that stop us from our performance of Tapas.

In these days,

Asuras, Suras and Devas are not separate! The Devas (goodness) and Asuras(Badness) are within ourselves and all the good and bad fight within ourselves, we Suras, should be wise and follow all the three upadesa of Brahma - Da Da Da - Daya, Daana and Daama

All is within oneself, The Angel, the Devil, the Human.

All these are no way different from the goal that is aspired, that is liberation. One should be just awake, always, and be ready to help anybody on the way, it is not wisdom to to assume, it is not required, and just pass by somebody who may require help and especially when one can and is capable of helping in any manner.

General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 04, 2012, 08:53:48 PM »
Sri Jewel,

The problem is arising because you are differentiating between Service and Sadhana used for attaining Liberation. It seems that, Social Service, does not lead you to Liberation, and it is contrary to the goal of attaining Liberation. Unless this difference ceases, how can one progress towards liberation?

At the same, none of the posts really forced any body any social service. You can read once again. Please forgive me, but it seems you are imposing these views inadvertently on yourself. Dharma, by itself is naturally understood that one does so, as much as ones ability, you do not go to a person who is already in debt to give money as donation for some Dharma. These points are self understood. Dharma is not necessarily giving money or objects, even talking kind words to the needy is Dharma.

But, Sri Jewel, you say, These are not necessary for liberation? How are you able to say so? Are we evolved enough to decide for ourselves that these are not necessary, let me sit alone and attain liberation? No we are all mere children, we ought to follow the instructions laid down in the scriptures of world religions as much as possible to our abilities.

As said repeatedly, nobody is forcing this to anybody, if somebody is not interested, they may remain quiet, instead of passing comments such as this is not necessary for liberation. Infact, this only reflects highest Selfishness towards ones own Liberation!

One day in the sacred Rishi tradition Bhagvadpada Sri Adi Sankaracharya went to one old woman's house for alms (biksha).

She was so poor, she was not having a proper dress and anything worth the name to give as biksha. So with the entrance door of her house slightly ajar, she reached out swamiji with her hand stretched and dropped one amlaka fruit (which was the only thing available in her house) into the hands of Sri Sankaracharya, which was the only thing left in her house for themselves. The spirit is sacrifice of ego.

Sri Sankaracharya was deeply touched at the plight and haplessness of the woman - He recited twenty two slokas in praise of Goddess Lakshmi, known as Kanakadhara Stotram.

Sri Tushnim,

I have tried to summarize, wrt your observation as below:

:) Snake is apparent sir.
Even as mirage is known as mirage and yet it continues.
so also the world known as mirage still continues.
just because you have known your are Self and abide as Self the world will not vanish.

Snake is apparent

- for whom is it apparent?

Even as mirage is known as mirage and yet it continues.
so also the world known as mirage still continues.

 - Where was the mirage and the world in deep sleep? when you say, Mirage, world continues, Who is it, that sees the Mirage or the world continue?

just because you have known your are Self and abide as Self the world will not vanish.

- What do you really mean when you say "you have known your are Self?" who is knowing the Self?

See wherefrom the thought arises. It is the mind. See for whom the mind or intellect functions. For the ego. Merge the intellect in the ego and seek the source of the ego. The ego disappears. ‘I know’ and ‘I do not know’ imply a subject and an object. They are due to
duality. The Self is pure and absolute, One and alone. There are no two selves so that one may know the other. What is duality then? It cannot be the Self which is One and alone. It must be non-Self. Duality is the characteristic of the ego. When thoughts arise duality
is present; know it to be the ego, and seek its source. The degree of the absence of thoughts is the measure of your progress towards Self-Realisation. But Self-Realisation itself does not admit of progress; it is ever the same. The Self remains always in realisation. The obstacles are thoughts. Progress is measured by the degree of removal of the obstacles to understanding that the Self is always realised. So thoughts must be checked by seeking to whom they arise. So you go to their Source, where they do not arise.

Transcend the present plane of relativity. A separate being (Self) appears to know something apart from itself (non-Self). That is, the subject is aware of the object. The seer is drik; the seen is drisya. There must be a unity underlying these two, which arises as ‘ego’. This ego is of the nature of chit (intelligence); achit (insentient object) is only negation of chit. Therefore the underlying essence is akin to the subject and not the object. Seeking the drik, until all drisya disappears, the drik will become subtler and subtler until the absolute drik alone survives. This process is called drisya vilaya (the disappearance of the objective world).

What you say is just a first step, that the world is like Mirage, like the snake and so on. You will not be affected like before due to the happenings around you, and not like what you observed -

:) Snake is apparent sir.
Even as mirage is known as mirage and yet it continues.
so also the world known as mirage still continues.
just because you have known your are Self and abide as Self the world will not vanish.

Bhagavan says -

External contacts - contacts with objects other than itself - make the mind restless. Loss of interest in non-Self, (vairagya) is the first step. Then the habits of introspection and concentration follow. They are characterised by control of external senses, internal faculties, etc. (sama, dama, etc.) ending in samadhi (undistracted mind).

If atma-vichara (self-investigation), ceases, loka vichara (worldinvestigation) takes its place. (Laughter in the hall). Engage in Self-investigation, then the non-self will disappear. The Self will be left over. This is self-investigation of the Self. The one word Self is equivalent to the mind, body, man, individual. the Supreme and all else.

Sri Tushnim,

So, is the Mirage Non Self?

General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 04, 2012, 07:10:55 PM »
Sri Tushnim,

Can you please elaborate what "Karma" you are referring to?

and that is a nice verse of Bhaja Govindam, its essence is very nice -

One goes on pilgrimage to the place where the Ganga joins the sea; or observe the religious vows with care; or offers gifts. But if he be devoid of knowledge, he does not gain release-according to all schools of thought-even in a hundred lives.

How can one say, one does a karma without any knowledge, blindly? When one does a karma with an intention to alleviate somebody's suffering, how can it be said that such a karma is done devoid of knowledge? In such a case, is not Self Enquiry a Karma as well? How are you confident that it will confer you liberation? How can one be sure that Self enquiry is not devoid of knowledge?

Sri Krishna says in Gita, Chapter 5, 4

सांख्ययोगौ पृथग् बालाः प्रवदन्ति न पण्डिताः ।
एकमप्यासिथ्तः सम्यगुभयोर्विन्दते फलम् ॥ ५, ४ ॥

Only the ignorant speak of karma-yoga and devotional service as being different from the analytical study. Those who are actually learned say that he who applies himself well to one of these paths achieves the results of both.

While it is true, one will find verses from Shankaracharya's works and Gita and many other scriptures that say plainly that one cannot attain liberation with karma or Bhakti and so on. And the most famous one everybody would use, which i thought you may bring to your defence of arguement the Na Karmana Na Prajaya Dhanena Thyagenaike Amritatvama Anashuh.

But, when you do bring these quotations for representing your arguement, you have to bring the whole work of Shankaracharaya or other scriptures you are using for your reference. The background, what Shankaracharya really means? Does he really mean what I presume? Does my reasoning really matches with what Shankaracharya has conveyed? Could it be possible that i may be mis interpreting his original essence? One has to be very careful in using references. Without proper wholesome study, it would end up spreading mis information and mis guiding people and it also is a easy way to incur sin. So we have to be very careful. This is my reasoning.

:) There are two : Awareness : like the Rope.
And body - mind which are like snake. They are apparent.
The snake cannot affect the Rope sir.
Thats all I am trying to convey.

Sri Tushnim,

I would like to bring clarity here. There are no 2 at any time. When Snake was there, there was only snake. When Rope was realised, there is no more snake, there is only Rope. At no time, can both exist.

How can Snake (body, mind) continue to exist in the presence of Rope (Awareness)

Either there is Awareness or Nescience (Avidya), that is all. When there is Sun, there cannot be darkness, and, when there is darkness, there cannot be any Sun.

Darkness and Sun cannot co exist.

        :) What is forgetful sir? Its the mind that is forgetful.
you cannot say eitehr awareness or body are forgetful :)

Sri Tushnim,

i do not get what you are trying to convey. But from what i infer, i express as follows:

So are you saying there are two Selves? One, the mind that is forgetful, and, the awareness, body, that cannot be forgetful?

General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 04, 2012, 06:37:04 PM »
through Service one cannot find Liberation though Self inquiry one finds liberation from bondage. But through Service one can really feel the love and oneness which is very close to God :)

Sri Tushnim,

How do you know and how are you able to say, that, through service one cannot find liberation?

just yesterday or the day before, this story was shared, about Sri Ramanatha Brahmachari, he attained liberation through Selfless Service alone and most of the Nayanmars life is a testimony to attaining liberation through Selfless Service, his only activity was to serve Mother Azhagammal and follow the commands of Sri Bhagavan:

Bhagavan once said, ―I am afraid only of two people—one is Ramanatha Brahmachari and the other is Mudaliar Paati. He said this because these two people were ascetics who served Bhagavan with utterly selfless devotion.

Ramanatha Brahmachari was a student studying the Vedas in the Vedapatashala (school of the Vedas) in town. He met Bhagavan one day and his whole being was brought into silence. His Mind and Heart opened up to Bhagavan, so he decided to be with him for as long as possible. Though the Pataskala provided free food and lodging to its students, young Ramanatha preferred to stay with Bhagavan. He begged for food on the streets and took that food to Bhagavan in Virupaksha cave. Whatever Bhagavan shared with him, he ate willingly. Such was the beauty and surrender of this ascetic.

He served Bhagavan‘s Mother because he was a Brahmin boy, and Bhagavan‘s Mother was still following her orthodox ways. Ramanatha would help wash her vessels as well as her clothes, and she would shout his name, ―Ramanatha, Ramanatha, for every errand. Hearing her, Bhagavan would humorously remark, ―The japa of my Mother has started again!

One day, Bhagavan told Ramanatha that he had succeeded in realizing the Self. Ramanatha could not believe it. He wanted confirmation from Bhagavan again and again. Bhagavan reassured him many times, ―Yes Ramanatha, you have realized the Self! But Ramanatha was still incredulous. Bhagavan got up and rapped him on his head with his knuckles and repeated, ―Yes Ramanatha, you are realized. This simple devotee went into ecstasy and ran out of the room, telling everyone he met, ―This is the place where Bhagavan knuckled me! He did not care that he had attained self-realization. Bhagavan‘s knuckling him was greater than self-realization for him!

This innocent disciple was serving other devotees, too. When a man arrived at the Ashram with a calf, which Bhagavan named Lakshmi, there was nobody to look after her. With panthers and tigers lurking around, Bhagavan said, ―There is nobody to look after Lakshmi; else she could have been kept here. Then Ramanatha, who was only four-and-a-half feet in height, said, ―Bhagavan, I will look after Lakshmi. This was the beginning of the Ramanashram goshala.

All the visiting devotees would come in late at night, as the train arrived at eight-thirty. In Ramanashram, after dinner at seven, most everyone would go to sleep by seven-thirty. Bhagavan wanted the visitors to be attended to. Nobody offered to look after them. Ramanatha said, ―Bhagavan, I will look after them. Every night he would stay awake attending to the visitors. The next day, Bhagavan would beam him a big smile and affectionately say, Oh, so you looked.

General topics / For a Sadhaka
« on: October 04, 2012, 05:30:29 PM »
A Brahmachari lived as a disciple in the hermitage of a great enlightened Yogi. His intention was to become an adept at Yoga and spent most of his time in the bliss of Nirvikalpa Samadhi. One day the Yogi went out, telling his disciple that he could be back after a few days. That evening, the Brahmachari proceeded to the river to fetch water. There, he beheld a teenaged girl sobbing. He asked her what her trouble was.

She said, "I belong to a village situated a couple of miles away, on the other side of the river. My friend and I set out early this morning to attend a function at a village on this side. On our way back, we stopped at a grove nearby. A butterfly caught my attention. I felt a desire to hold it in my hand and so went to the flower where it was perched. It took off and eluded my grasp. I followed it till it sat on another plant. Again, I tried to catch it but failed. Chasing it unsuccessfully in this fashion, I was soon out of the range of sight of my friends. After some time, I gave up and, feeling tired, sat down.

"Without intending to, I fell asleep. I must have slept for over an hour. When I woke up, I found that the sun had set. I ran to where my friends had been sitting but found none there. I searched the region but could not locate them. My guess is that after waiting for some time, they called out to me. They were unaware that I had gone after a butterfly. But they knew that I easily get homesick. So, presuming that I must have proceeded on my own to reach home early, they continued on their return journey. This is what I conjecture must have happened. For my part, the thought of having been left behind frightened me. I realised that it was too late for me to proceed towards home. Further, when I rushed back to the river, the boatman was nowhere to be seen. He must have gone home. It is now getting dark and obviously I cannot spend the night here. I cannot go home either. hence, I am feeling helpless and miserable."

The Brahmachari felt pity for her. He told her, "You can spend the night at the hermitage where I live and leave early tomorrow morning." The girl appeared thankful but wary, "Who all stay at the hermitage?", she asked, "My Guru and myself", replied the Brahmachari.  "But at present, my Guru has gone elsewhere and shall be back only after a few days." The girl said, "In that case, will be proper for me to come there? I have my doubts." The Brahmachari laughed and declared, "Have no fear. I have vowed to be a life-long celibate. Carnal desires have no place in my mind and my dispassion is unshakable. Even the Apsara Urvashi cannot tempt me. So, you can come with me without any hesitation." "Thank you very much for offering to help me", responded the girl and readily accompanied him.

At the hermitage, he offered her fruits. He then told her, "Spend the night in the sole room available, while I sleep outside, in the open." She expressed her gratitude to him again and closed the door behind her.  The Brahmachari spread his mat of straw on the ground and lay down to sleep. In half an hour, it started to drizzle. The Brahmachari woke up and knocked at the door. The girl opened it. He informed her that as it was drizzling, he wished to sleep inside. He told her to move her straw bed to one side of the room and set up his mat on the other side. He lay down facing away from her.

In minutes, the drizzles turned into a downpour. The frequent flashes of lightning clearly visible through the window near the Brahmachari prevented him from falling asleep. So he turned his face away from the window. He could now see the girl and noticed that she was shivering. "Poor girl, she has had a bad day and now cannot even get a good night's sleep. Let me help her", he thought. He tapped her on her shoulder and said, "I have a blanket. Let us share it." He did not give her the blanket and remain without one because he felt, "It is getting increasingly cold. Without a blanket, I cannot sleep. If I remain awake tonight, I will feel sleepy in the morning and my meditation will suffer. Surely, tomorrow's meditation is more important than the inconvinience of sleeping by the side of this girl. In any case, her body is no more tempting to me than a log of wood." The girl appeared suprised at the Brahmachari's offer but raised no objection. So, they were soon sharing a blanket.

After some time of contact with the girl's body, the Brahmachari felt the stirring of lustful thoughts. He was, however, not perturbed. He told himself. "Many are the occasions when I have felt hungry and desired to eat the fruit next to me but have comfortably abstained from doing so. Likewise, there have been times when anger has arisen in my mind. Yet, I have not only abstained from speaking harshly but have also remained silent. Surely, these sexual thoughts cannot impel me to do anything improper." However, in minutes, the carnal thoughts became intense. Impelled by a powerful longing to cohabit with the girl, he put his arm around her.

The moment he did so, he had the shock of his life. In her place, he found his Guru. For a few seconds, the Brahmachari remained too dazed to move a muscle. He then hurriedly got up and prostrated at the feet of his Guru, his face red with embarrassment. The Yogi told him, "I repeatedly told you that as you have not become a Jivanmukta, you should not take your Brahmacharyam for granted. However, my words did not sink into you. This is because you were sure that you could not be tempted. Trying a different track, I cautioned you by telling you the tale of a group of monkeys who decided to observe a fast on Ekadashi. Do you remember?" On hearing his Guru's words, the story that the Yogi told him readily came to the Brahmachari's mind.

To be continued...

(As told by Sri Abhinava Vidyatheertha Swamigal)

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