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Messages - Nagaraj

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Forum advice, news & etiquette / Re: Tolerance
« on: October 06, 2012, 01:01:19 PM »
Truly nothing has happened and sometimes we need to call a spade a spade. :)

i think i resonate with your views.

Forum advice, news & etiquette / Re: Tolerance
« on: October 06, 2012, 12:22:23 PM »
Sri Atmavichar100,

yesterday night, i was pondering over this and expressed my thoughts under "My Musings" topic given below:

I am not suggesting anything below, but letting out in the air, some thought for contemplation. I do not genuinely have a solution for this. But, in past having conversed with Sri Graham, he had suggested, ultimately reasoning wins, but, it entirely depends upon the members to reason out in a fashion that is non - violent.

I do not know about the ways of other religion. But Here in India, especially, in Sanathana Dharma. Ultimately it is Shastra Pramana.

That which is acceptable by Shastra is acceptable and that which is not acceptable, is not acceptable.

Tolerance that we are talking about is a kind of anarchy. To exhibit such of tolerance, none of us are Sages here. I therefore strongly felt, a need for clear rules. But i discern these are compulsions of electronic medium. There is really no solution other than ones own conscience.

Thoughts of members that are Shastra Pramana does not become their thoughts. This is more reason, to be God Fearing, Fear of Scriptures, Fear of talking against the Voice of Gods. These are lacking.

Sri Ramanashramam also was subject to great politics, and Bhagavan allowed Sarvadhikari to reign, to keep and maintain the sanctity of Truth. Shastra Pramanam.

Well. I do not know any solution. Just letting out my thoughts in air.

General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 06, 2012, 11:35:57 AM »
Dear Sri Tushnim,

We can go through this in great detail. But before we begin. I have a couple of small thoughts or question.

What is the purpose really? What are we going to gain, by this discussion? Shankaracharaya may have said somethings. At the end of the discussion, it may be seen that yes, Jnana alone is supreme, karma, bhakti are only prelude or it could also turn out to be that Jnana, Karma, Bhakti all are one and the same.

I mean, i fail to get interested in this discussion, there is nothing worthwhile to derive from this discussion. What do you recommend? Or do you see something that is very important? that needs to be looked in to carefully?

Again, as i expressed my thoughts in previous post, is this discussion going to benefit you in anyway? Are you looking for some clarification?

The purpose doesn't pull me into this discussion. Instead, i would instantly jump into any thing that fulfills my Selfish interest as expressed in my previous post.

Kindly let me know the purpose. Thank you.

General Discussion / Re: my musings
« on: October 05, 2012, 11:33:20 PM »
The problem is because, there is a sense of anarchy here. We are free to discuss anything, and nobody can really put us down, the only Master that is truly here is just ones own conscience alone,m which is no yet blossomed. But I truly sense, we are all, together not evolved enough to remain in anarchy. There has to be a Teacher, a Guru, an Elderly figure, to monitor us, if we seriously want to progress.

There has to be strong do's and don'ts in tune with what is best for every Sadhana. Those ground rules, following which, one is always under check. Like when Ramanar took on the task of caring for the young. As he liked to use daily events to teach his devotees he said to them, “These little ones do not know that wisdom lies in remaining in their nest. They keep attempting to come out. All trouble lies outside but they cannot remain within. Similarly if the mind is not externalised, but remains sunk in the Heart then there would only be happiness. But the mind keeps moving out.” When Rangaswami asked, “What is the path for keeping it inward?”, Bhagavan said, “It is exactly the same as what I am doing now. Each time a young squirrel comes out, I keep putting it back into its nest. When I go on doing it, it learns the happiness of staying in the nest.”

Without such a master, we got to be extremely careful what we bring to discussion here. I do not know how this is gong to evolve. But it is necessary.

General Discussion / Secrecy in Spiritual Sadhana
« on: October 05, 2012, 11:22:29 PM »
Secrecy in Spiritual Sadhana

Earnest devotees,

Our spiritual tradition has always since time immemorial days, has advocated maintaining strict secrecy in ones Sadhana. It is said ones initiation should never be divulged to anybody. There is a saying as well that goes as follows:

अन्तः शाक्तः | बहिश्शैवः | लोके वैष्णवः || [कौलोपनिषत्]
AntaH shAktaH bahiH shaivaH loke vaiShNavaH (Kaulopanishad)

Ar heart Shakta, outwardly a Shaiva and in gatherings a Vaishnava (who generally gather together for worshipping in the praise of Hari)

There is a specific reason for this also. Our Sages are not narrow minded to advocate secrecy.

The advantages of maintaining secrecy is that outwardly, one acquires more and more knowledge, inwardly does not go about revealing what ever he may know, as his knowledge is not complete yet, and present himself as a great Bhakta Vainava, singing the glory of Lord where ever he goes. Because of secrecy, ones ego also is curtailed that aspired to jump in each time to express what it knows. Maintaining secrecy is a great restraint of mind.

This tradition of discussing extensively and deeply about Self Enquiry in true spirit not good for any sadhaka.

While it is ok to have light exchanges to dispel small doubts, but engaging in deep discussion about Self Enquiry and its intricacies are detrimental to ones progress.

One has to keep assimilating what ever one comes across, and remain silent and increase the knowledge from within, instead of dissipating what ever little we know, every now and then that only fuels ones ego.

Unknowingly, what we are doing is just merely evaluating our knowledge, by testing it in waters, and when some salt and sugar are added, it affects one pointlessness and focus. the effects of revealing what little we may know out, when it is not complete yet, may attract great damages to ones faith, primarily and cause great disappointment to oneself when one knowledge is questioned.
Thank you

General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 05, 2012, 04:58:28 PM »
as said, i have it Sri Tushnim, we can go over it.

General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 05, 2012, 04:27:35 PM »
Tushnim, that would be fine. I have with me Bhagavad Gita, but, on what basis i have to read, without any query, makes no sense for me, hence it would be good if you can bring to front, what Shankaracharya has go to say, and we can take from there.

With regard to Bhagavad Gita, in context to Shankara Bhashyam,

Chapters 1 - 6   constitute Karma Yoga
Chapters 7 - 12 constitute Bhakti Yoga
Chapters 13 - 18  constitute Jnana Yoga

General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 05, 2012, 04:12:39 PM »
       First plz go through the starting introduction of chapter 2
whether its enough or not we will take up later.
No hurry in coming to any conclusion and no harm in going through chapter 2 of gita with shankara bhasyam :) , isn't it sir?


you suddenly ask me to read Chapter 2, Bhagavad Gita, I do not know for what I am supposed to read it. I see that you are trying to substantiate some point you are trying to make, so, the onus rests on you to bring forth those verses for which you are trying to substantiate.

General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 05, 2012, 04:05:37 PM »
        Can you please read the Bhagavad Gita, chapter 2 Shankara Bhasyam ? We will discuss once you take a look into that in detailed.
if you want I can give you references for the same.
Harih om.

Tushmin, i can read Bhagavad Gita chapter 2, but chapter 2 alone is not enough.

you said: "Jnanam is not a "Goal". Atma Jnanam is what the shastras present through scriptural injections. One gets indirect knowledge about Self through scriptures. And then "Aparokshanubhuti explains how one gets established"."

Let it be, what makes you think that this indirect knowledge about self cannot be (acquired) through Karma or Bhakti?

You said: "A person who takes Shadows to be ghosts needs to be told and explained that they are merely shadows and then he has to himself verify. Karma without the understanding that they are not ghots wont help.

A person who takes the 10th man is missing needs what ? Please refer to the 10th man story and why Shankara explains it."

What makes you feel that this cannot be (acquired) through karma or bhakti?

The point i am refuting is, you say only Jnana can confer liberation, i do not think, any body is denying that, but, your reasoing that Jnana cannot be got through Karma and Bhakti is lacking on its credentials.

No matter what method you may follow, karma, Bhakti or vichara, all your efforts only extend thus far of doing your best, Sri Bhagavan says:

D.: Even so, I do not understand. 'I', you say, is the wrong 'I' now. How to eliminate this wrong 'I'?

You need not eliminate the wrong 'I'. How can 'I' eliminate itself? - All that you need do is to find out its origin and abide there. Your efforts can extend only thus far. Then the Beyond will take care of itself. You are helpless there. No effort can reach it.

The Jnana which you have been saying, cannot be (acquired) through karma or Bhakti, cannot be (acquired) through ones effort, this must be very clear, without the grace of that which is beyond, or intimate, no efforts can reach it. Not even Vichara.

General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 05, 2012, 03:50:58 PM »
Sri Nagaraj,
Jnanam is not a "Goal". Atma Jnanam is what the shastras present through scriptural injections. One gets indirect knowledge about Self through scriptures. And then "Aparokshanubhuti explains how one gets established".

A person who takes Shadows to be ghosts needs to be told and explained that they are merely shadows and then he has to himself verify. Karma without the understanding that they are not ghots wont help.

A person who takes the 10th man is missing needs what ? Please refer to the 10th man story and why Shankara explains it.

What point are you trying to communicate Sri Tushmin, can you please elaborate, i am not able to grasp what you are trying to convey. Thank you.

General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 05, 2012, 03:42:29 PM »
Sri Tushnim,

Jnanam what you say is the goal. it can be reached through any of the methods, be it Karma, Bhakti, Jnana (vichara) yoga. I preseume you are getting confused with Sadhana (method) and Lakshyartham that is the Goal.

I present below, from Talks 580:

D.: Is a Jnani different from a yogi? What is the difference?
M.: Srimad Bhagavad Gita says that a Jnani is the true yogi and also a true bhakta [?]. Yoga is only a sadhana [?] and jnana is the siddhi.

D.: Is yoga necessary?
M.: It is a sadhana. It will not be necessary after jnana is attained.

All the sadhanas are called yogas, e.g., Karma yoga; Bhakti yoga;

Jnana yoga; Ashtanga yoga. What is yoga? Yoga means `union'. Yoga is possible only when there is `viyoga' (separation). The person is now under the delusion of viyoga. This delusion must be removed. The method of removing it is called yoga.

D.: Which method is the best?
M.: It depends upon the temperament of the individual. Every person is born with the samskaras of past lives. One of the methods will be found easy for one person and another method for another. There is no definiteness about it.

One may engage in any of the methods to suit ones temperament in order to achieve the Lakshyartha, goal.

I see that subsequently you have responded. I see that this response holds good for even that as well. Sadhana and Lakshyartha ought to be discerned well.

One who does karma without doership, is Karma yogi, some time back we discussed Nishkamya Karma, Offering the fruits of karma to Lord, the other is Prapatti, Bhakti, Sharanagati, the other is Vichara marga, With all these methods one can reach the Lakshyartham that is the Goal. These are my reasoning.

General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 05, 2012, 03:09:56 PM »
Sri Tushnim,

      There are two lifestyles:
1) Nivritti where no karmas are done.
2) Pravritti where the student involves in karma .

What has Nivritti or Pravritti got to do with Karma? i do not get your reasoning.

do you know bhagavan's attitude towards World wars etc ?

I do not know, can you please share with me? what his attitude towards world wars?

General topics / Re: Discussion on the Quotes of Shankaracharya's
« on: October 05, 2012, 02:40:05 PM »
Sri Tushnim,

Why do you differentiate Jnana with Karma and Bhakti? Are they different?

Otherday, some where you said there is no difference between Jnana and Bhakti, today you say, only it is only Jnana that liberates. You are not being consistent in your views.

General topics / Past of Bhagavan
« on: October 05, 2012, 11:40:04 AM »
I am prompted to type this article from Boundless Ocean of Grace, that speak about Sri Bhagavan's horoscope and Nadi Josiyam, his past and future. I am prompted to type this because, we should not be mistaken that Sri Bhagavan just sat and attained liberation. As one is aware, ones current life is the result of ones own past life and if Bhagavan attained liberation in just 15 minutes, it is a result of intense tapas made in past.

In Tamil Nadu amongst various systems of astrology Nadi Josiyam (nadi astrology) is also one. Some of the ancient sages purported to have forecast the horoscope of certain individuals and these are called nadi josiyams. There are various nadis like Agastya nadi, Brihu nadi, Kaga Bujandar nadi, Sapta Rishi nadi etc. The forecast are all written down on palm leaves in symbolic verse forms. The person desirous to know about his future or somebody else's has to give the thumb impression or the date and the place of birth of the person concerned. The custodian of the palm leaves of these nadis will search thousands of verses arranged in a particular order and find out if the subject;s forecast is available. If available he will decipher the cryptic symbols and explain their meaning to the person. A fee is charged for reading the horoscope. If the forecast is not available then the custodian will say no.

In 1936 one Thangavelu Nadar consulted Kaga Bujandar's nadi josiyam and took out the palm leaves regarding Venkatraman's future and about his past birth and brought out two volumes.

Now let us see what the nadi says about Venkataraman. The nadi extols the merits of the child. It says: When the child is born the celestial beings in their joy will shower rain. The Supreme Lord Siva with his consort Uma will attend the child's confinement and will be present in the labour room. The devas, tapasvins and great rishis will be overjoyed, as if they are relatives of the child. This child will become a great rishi and follow a path so that he will never enter a woman's womb again.

The father will not be present when the child is born and will learn of the child's birth on the following day. The father's profession is to turn falsehood to absolute truth and vice versa, i.e. he will be a pleader. The mother will pass away at the subject's forty second year.

The child will never be interested in his studies but will be ever immersed in consciousness of the Supreme Being. Whenever he goes he will be found sitting like a statue and will be looking inwards. He never will be conscious of the external world. Notr comprehending his inner life. his elder brother will alwats fight with him and cause him great discomfort. After 15v years 5 months and 27 days he will in a trice attain the Supreme Realisation.

He will reach Tiruvannamali where Brahma and Vishnu once searched for the top and bottom of the column of Effulgence. Casting off all formalities he will reside in the temple. Those who approach him devoutly, he will grant all their boons, like the celestial wish-fulfiling tree. He will not be of this world but of another world. Wherever he is, annadhanam (free distribution of food) will take place.

Although walking on the path in the forest of Tiruvannamalai he will remain in a state where there is no within or without.

He will be the very personification of Tapas. His sole aim is to uplift to his own state even great scholars who strenuously strive to attain liberation from the vicious cycle of births and deaths and do not succeed. Many devotees will worship his form in their minds. Others  will worship his portrait or his idol. A few others will worship him as a personification of all devas. For those who worship him in the above manner, he will be the Supreme Lord and he will save them, taking them to the shores of liberation.

All those performing severe austerities in order to get rid of births and death will, in their exalted spiritual state, have a vision of this Ramana Murthy. For those who can achieve that state he will be the Purushothama (Perfect Lord) of the Vedas and an unfailing guide in their paths.

As Dakshinamurthy of yore, who taught in silence under the banyan tree, he will initiate devotees by His silence and through His eyes.

This is not an ordinary child. No one has performed austerities as he has. Although due to severe austerities his nobody may suffer, yet, like the mother earth, he will never be conscious of the body, remaining always in the formless universe.

It is not even possible to speak of the greatness of this child in this birth. So let us see what happened in his previous birth. In his previous birth he performed taps residing on a famous hill. Seeing the intensity of his tapoas Vishnu and other devas appeared before him. However the sage did not take advantage of their appearance to ask any boons, instead he ignored them completely.

While he performed such severe austerities Lord Siva, in his abundant compassion, felt that the sage's body would not withstand the intensity of his tapas so he ordered Brahma to go and strengthen the sage's body. However, when Brahma appeared before the sage, the sage became very angry. He thought that though he was searching for Siva, instead of Siva Brahma had come to give his darshan. So he advised Brahma thus: Perhaps you have forgotten the lessontaught to you by Skanda. Think of your fate. In order to save your self from a similar fate you may go elsewhere.

Hearing these harsh words from the sage, Brahma controlled his anger and replied softly, "Chikd! I have come to help you, so that you may attain your goal. I have come on Siva's bidding to strengthen your body, so that it can withstand the intensity of your penance. Let me know what your wish is. I shall fulfil it."

The rishi replied that he required nothing from Brahma. After this the sage further intensified his tapas and went deep within himself, to reach the infinite. On realizing the sage's deep wish to have his darshan Lord SIva along with His consort Uma appeared before the sage and consoled him thus: "My child, your deep devotion to me will continue even in your next birth. In your next birth we shall be your guide and redeem you."

We have given a synopsis of the predictions of the Nadi Josiyam. Although certain passages from it seems apt other portions are unbelievable. These we have imitted. Further, the description of Venkataraman's state by the Nadi Josiyam falls far short. Those who read Bhagavan's biography will at once realize that He was living far beyond the state described by the Nadi.

Brethelem, Mecca, Nadia, Kaladi, Kamarpukur although small villages became famous as they were the birth places of Jesus, Mohammed The Prophet, Chaitanya, Adi Shankara and Ramakrishna Paramahamsa respectively. So too, Tiruchuzhi has become famous because of Venkataraman. The houses in which the famous English poet Shakespeare and Ramakrishna Paramahamsa were born are to this day protected as places of pilgrimage. The house in which this child was born was also to be made a place of worship.

General Discussion / God in All
« on: October 05, 2012, 09:44:08 AM »
"Yes, all one's confusion comes to an end if one only realizes that it is God who manifests Himself as the atheist and the believer, the good and the bad, the real and the unreal; that it is He who is present in waking and in sleep; and that He is beyond all these."

(Sri Ramakrishnar)

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