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Messages - atmavichar100

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There are many cases in the king-beggar analogy, which brings out many finer points.

Case 1: The king is seen as a beggar:
- The king goes to a foreign country and people mistake him as a beggar. However the king knows that he is a king and is not bothered how the people see him.

- In terms of rope and snake, little boys decorate a rope as a snake (maybe to scare others), but a person who knows it as a rope is not bothered about it.

- The king here is not the absolute controller of the situations. He has no control over how the people will perceive him in the foreign country. The person who sees the decorated rope has no control over how the little boys will decorate the rope. Even though, the king knows himself as a king, there exist others who thinks themselves as beggars.

- In this case the king has no thoughts since he does not participate in the situations. The person does not participate in the game of little boys and hence has no thoughts.

Case 2: The king plays the role of a beggar for duty:
- The king plays the role of a beggar to find out the situation in his kingdom.

- The person participates in the rope-snake game with the little boys to teach the little boys.

- The king again is not the absolute controller. He does not control external situations and works within the scheme of duty.

- In this case, the king and the person has thoughts of duty.

Case 3: The king plays the role of beggar for advantage:
- The king has to present himself as a beggar to other people to get some advantage from them.

- The person has to show the little boys his fear to get some advantage from them.

- The king again is not the absolute controller.

- In this case there are either thoughts of some bondage, or it is a trivial common sense situation.

Case 4: The king plays the role of a beggar out of joy of his kingly nature:
- The king is overjoyed with his kingly nature and plays the role of a beggar to enjoy his kingly nature. Here we are entering the territory of leela.

- The person out of joy of knowing the rope participates in the game with the little boys.

- The king again is not the absolute controller.

- In this case there are self-created thoughts. These thoughts does not bind the king but are an expression of the knowledge and freedom. The king has a sense of non-duality knowing that there is a kingly nature (which he is), and he also has a sense of duality seeing the relative world.

Case 5: The king plays the role of a beggar out of joy of seeing kingly nature everywhere:
- The king is overjoyed seeing the kingly nature in everything. He plays different roles to enjoy the kingly nature and expresses the joy of the kingly nature in the relative world.

As far as I have understood Sri Ramakrishna's sayings, Sri Ramakrishna called this case as vijnana. The vijnani performs leela to milk the joy of Brahman seeing the same divine essence everywhere. He assumes different roles and plays with different roles.

- The vijnani has thoughts, thoughts of leela, which are self-created. Standing on non-duality he puts on the garb of duality to enjoy Brahman and share its joy in the world of duality.

- However, in this case also the king may not have absolute control over everything.
He may not have any control over how the relative world originate, how beggars even though kings still thinks themselves as beggars.

- The entity which has absolute control over everything, which is in everything, which is everything, Sri Ramakrishna calls as Shakti or Divine Mother (whose passive state is Brahman).

Case 6: The king is the absolute controller (Shakti or Divine Mother) and plays all roles:
- The difference between absolute controller and non-absolute controller can be described with the wave-ocean analogy:
-- A non-absolute controller king even as wave knows himself as the ocean (the king). He however does not control other waves in the ocean nor has he the power to create waves in the ocean. An absolute controller even as a wave can control all the other waves and is the creator of all the waves.
--- An absolute controller can create maya which is a perfect art in the following sense:
When we try to play chess alone, there arises the difficulty that one side knows the thoughts of the other side. So here unity is preventing the joy of the game. Maya is such a perfect art that unity does not prevent joy in the game. Here the art of partitioning is perfect.
-- A non-absolute controller wave does not graduate and become an absolute controller wave. His only route is to merge in the ocean and stay as the ocean awareness. An absolute-controller wave is of a different nature.

- The Divine Mother can remain as the ocean or emerge as an absolute-controller wave incarnation.

- The Divine Mother creates stages for leela, the kings, subjects and everything from Her own nature and Herself plays through the creation. She creates joys, sorrows and many other moods.

- Obviously Divine Mother is a jnani. Whether a jnani is Divine Mother playing a role with full knowledge of Her nature, it is difficult to say.

- Obviously Divine Mother has thoughts, created by her. She not only creates thoughts for one role, but for all roles wherever applicable. However, She is also thoughtless, as Brahman. She is depicted as dancing on the bosom of Shiva. Shiva is also shown as Ardha-Narishwara.

- A beggar does not know himeself as king because of Her maya.
A beggar knows himself as a king because of her grace.
Expressing in a more non-dualistic way, a beggar knows himself as king when the Divine Mother graduates her beggar's role to king's role.

In summary:
- A king will not have thoughts if he is not participating in any play (e.g. case 1). The king will have thoughts if he is participating in a role play.

- A king who is not an absolute-controller wave stays in ocean awareness. He is not the creator of waves. The king who is an absolute-controller creates and controls all the waves.
(The absolute-controller wave concept is not accepted in all philosophies. Here it is stated to bring out different cases of the king-beggar analogy)

These inferences are based on king-beggar example and sayings of Sri Ramakrishna.

So many Cases for a King-Beggar , Snake-Rope analogy  :)

Another visitor, who said that he was from Sri Aurobindo’s Ashram, asked Bhagavan: “But we see pain in the world. A man is hungry. It is a physical reality. It is very real to him. Are we to call it a dream and remain unmoved by his pain?”

From the point of view of jnana or the reality, the pain you speak of is certainly a dream, as is the world of which the pain is an infinitesimal part. In the dream also you yourself feel hunger. You see others suffering hunger. You feed yourself and, moved by pity, feed the others that you find suffering from hunger. So long as the dream lasted, all those pains were quite as real as you now think the pain you see in the world to be. It was only when you woke up that you discovered that the pain in the dream was unreal. You might have eaten to the full and gone to sleep. You dream that you work hard and long in the hot sun all day, are tired and hungry and want to eat a lot. Then you get up and find your stomach is full and you have not stirred out of your bed. But all this is not to say that while you are in the dream you can act as if the pain you feel there is not real. The hunger in the dream has to be assuaged by the food in the dream. The fellow beings you found in the dream so hungry had to be provided with food in that dream. You can never mix up the two states, the dream and the waking state. Till you reach the state of jnana and thus wake out of this maya, you must do social service by relieving suffering whenever you see it. But even then you must do it, as we are told, without ahamkara, i.e., without the sense “I am the doer,” but feeling, “I am the Lord’s tool.” Similarly one must not be conceited, “I am helping a man below me. He needs help. I am in a position to help. I am superior and he inferior.” But you must help the man as a means of worshipping God in that man. All such service too is for the Self, not for anybody else.You are not helping anybody else, but only yourself.

Mr. T.P. Ramachandra Aiyar said in this connection, “There is the classic example of Abraham Lincoln, who helped a pig to get out of a ditch and in the process had himself and his clothes dirtied. When questioned why he took so much trouble, he replied, ‘I did it to put an end not so much to the pig’s trouble, as to my own pain in seeing the poor thing struggle to get out of the ditch’.”

General Discussion / Re: Karthigai Deepam today - Its Significance
« on: November 27, 2012, 05:41:30 PM »
Dear Nagaraj and others,

Mahadeepam to see which gods and goddesses were waiting in heavens was seen by my mortal eyes, at 5.57 PM this evening
in Jaya TV and also the Webcam of Graham Body. In fact, the close up view of the Hill showed the Mahadeepam along with Full
Moon nicely.

Arunachala Siva.

Yes Subramaniam Sir ,I watched it in Pothigai TV . Today is also a day of celebration .Harikesa Nallur Venkataraman said in Pothai TV during the live telecast that when there is lot of celebration in the house neighbors  ask "what is new happening in this house : is it Kalyanam ( Marriage ) or Karthigai "? So Karthigai is celebrated like a Kalyanam i.e like a Marriage .
Fortunately in Sanathana Dharma we have lot of festivals to get rejuvenated and start fresh and Karthigai is one such festival and after coming in contact with Bhagwan Ramana and Arunachala we have a different approach to looking at this festival .

Om Peace .

live relay of Karthigai Deepam Celebrations at Sri Ramanasramam available in our website. Kindly visit the link

Date: 27.11.2012

Timings: 4.30 PM (IST) to 6.30 PM (IST)

General Discussion / Re: Karthigai Deepam today - Its Significance
« on: November 27, 2012, 03:57:15 PM »
live relay of Karthigai Deepam Celebrations at Sri Ramanasramam available in our website. Kindly visit the link

Date: 27.11.2012

4.30 PM (IST) to 6.30 PM (IST)

General Discussion / Re: Karthigai Deepam today - Its Significance
« on: November 27, 2012, 12:56:38 PM »
Kartigai Deepam by Swami Sivananda

ON THE full moon day of the month of Kartigai (November-December) which falls on the ascension of the Kritigai star, the Hindus celebrate the Kartigai Deepam. It is on this day that the huge beacon is lit on the holy hill Arunachala, in South India.

Once Lord Shiva assumed the form of a hill at Tiruvannamalai in South India. Here He quelled the pride of Brahma and Vishnu who were quarelling as to their relative greatness. One day, when Lord Shiva was in meditation, Parvati left Him and went to the hill of Arunachala. There She performed penance. She was the guest of the sage Gautama. It was during Her penance here that Mahishasura was killed by Durga hidden by Parvati. Parvati saw Shiva as Arunachalesvara. She was taken back by the Lord to His side, and made His Ardhangini once more, that is, She occupied half of the body of the Lord.

Arunachalesvara is Tejo Lingam. Arunachala or the Tiruvannamalai Hill is the place that represents the fire element. (The five elements are represented by five holy places in India.)

When the light on the top of the Tiruvannamalai Hill is unveiled on the Kartigai Deepam day, people see the big light and worship it. They recite again and again in a loud voice “Harohara”. The esoteric meaning is that he who sees the light of lights that is burning eternally in the chambers of his heart through constant meditation attains immortality. The light on the Arunachala brings the message to you that the Self or Lord Shiva is self-effulgent, He is the light of lights.

On the Kartigai Deepam day in South India, people make bonfires in front of temples in the evening. It is said that Lord Shiva burnt the chariots of several demons who were torturing sages and celestials. This bonfire symbolises this legend.

People place rows of earthen lamps in front of their houses on the evening of Kartigai Deepam and worship the Lord. They also light a variety of fireworks.

Annihilate the three impurities, namely, egoism, selfish action and delusion. Burn the mind, senses and the desires in the fire of knowledge of the Self or Shiva-Jnanam. Attain full illumination and behold the light of lights, which illumines the mind, intellect, sun, moon, stars, lightning and the fire. This is real Kartigai Deepam.
May the light of lights illumine you all! May Lord Shiva bless you with more light! May you merge in this supreme light and attain the eternal abode of bliss and immortality!

(pgs. 42-44, Hindu Fasts and Festivals by Swami Sivananda )

General Discussion / Re: Karthigai Deepam today - Its Significance
« on: November 27, 2012, 12:51:54 PM »
Karthigai Deepam at house ( from the above source )

General Discussion / Karthigai Deepam today - Its Significance
« on: November 27, 2012, 12:45:03 PM »
Thirukarthigai - Recipes - Why & How do we celebrate Karthigai Deepam
Source :

Thirukarthigai/Karthigai Deepam comes on the tamil month Karthigai on Pournami day(Full moon day). Throughout the month lamps are lit in the front of the house in the evening . On the Thirukarthigai/Karthigai Deepam day the whole house is decorated with the oil lamps. Thiruvannamalai is famous for Thirukarthigai/Karthigai Deepam. This year, Thiru Karthigai falls on Tue 27th Nov 2012.

Story behind Karthigai
Once Brahma and Vishnu due to the ego started arguing with each other " who is the greatest". Both claimed to be the greatest, instead of doing their duty. At that time the God Shiva appeared in the form of fire and told them whoever finds the top or bottom of the fire is the greatest. Brahma took the form of Annam (a bird) and tried to find the top of the frle pillar. Vishnu took the form of Varaha( giant pig) and tried to see the bottom of the pillar. As the God has no limit in his size or power, both of them could not see either top or bottom of the fire. When their ego went down and they prayed the God, He appeared before them. The day in which the God appeared as a pillar of fire is Thirukarthigai/Karthigai Deepam.

Lord Shiva appeared as a hill (Arunachala Hill) at Tiruvannamalai in Tamil Nadu. Indeed, the very names `Tiruvannamalai' and `Arunachala' translate as `holy fire hill.' The Shivalinga in the temple here is the agni linga. The tiny lamps lit during the Karthigai festival (Karthigai Deepam) are believed to be the miniature replicas of the fire linga. Every year thousands of devotees from Chennai and elsewhere flock to Tiruvannamalai to see the spectacular Karthigai Deepam there.
This vradha indicates the non measurable infiniteness of the God and shows that the God is the light that will drive away our ignorance. Lamps are lit in the houses to pray His "Jyothi Swarupam".

First day of this festival is called as "Appakarthigai" and the second day is called as "vadai karthigai". All devotees will offer pori,adhirasam,vella Seedai, vetrilai pakku,fruits as neivedhyam for God Shiva.

In down South of Tamilnadu and in Kerala, Hindus will pray god for goodness of their brothers and they will light a elephant lamp(Gajalakshmi Vilaku) which marks as a sign of prosperity and wealth. The story behind lighting elephant lamp(Gajalakshmi Vilaku) is given below.

Why we light Elephant lamp on Karthigai ?

Once upon a time there lived a King and he had only one daughter. She loved an elephant which grew with her and she considered the elephant as her own brother. After her marriage she missed her brother elephant very much. So for every Thirukarthigai/Karthigai deepam occasion, she will light elephant lamp(Gajalakshmi vilaku) and she will prepare tender coconut, elephant leg size milagu Milagu Adai, Pori,Adhirasam,Vella Seedai and keep them as neivedhyam for this festival.

Karthigai Recipies

Dear Friends

Few years back I had this email correspondence with David Godman regarding the topic "How to find one's own Guru " after reading the book BE AS YOU ARE by David Godman .
Here is question and David's reply .Hope it helps others also in the same .
Om Peace

Dear David ,This is with regard to a doubt in your book BE AS YOU ARE- The Teachings of Ramana Maharshi   Pg.92

Q : How can I find my own Guru
    Bhagwan: By intense meditation
    Now my doubt is , what sort of meditation is implied  here?
    is it Meditation on the form of a deity like what Papaji did  or any other form of meditation .Can you elaborate this ?

This is what David Godman replied :

Papaji used to say that it is the desire for liberation or for God that brings one to a Guru, and he would cite his own case in support of this. He said that the sadhana one performs is actually a symptom or a side effect of this hunger for transcendence. If realisation happens, it is not because of a particular practice since that is just the symptom or the outer manifestion of a hunger for God or the Self. It is the unwavering desire for God or the Self that takes you to the goal, not the practice that this desire manifests as. I would also, with reference to your answer, that if the desire for the Self is strong and persistent enough, a Guru wil manifest.

          Best Wishes            David Godman

Yes! He has assimilated the Truth Very well :)

Dear atmavichar,
        can I take this post of yours into my Annamalai Swami's sayings thread in general discussions forum ? I am little lazy to type these :D


I owe no copyrights to these messages .It belongs to Annamalai Swami and David Godman  :)
So feel free to use it .I got it from Ramana Maharshi  FB page .Of course primary source is David Godman's book "Living by the Words of Bhagwan"

Om Peace .

Conversation with Annamalai Swami
from: 'Living By The Words Of Bhagavan' by David Godman

Q.: What is the easiest way to be free of the 'little self'?

Annamalai Swami: Stop identifying with it. If you can convince yourself, 'This little self is not really me,' it will disappear.

Q.: But how to do that?

AS.: The little self is something that only appears to be real. If you understand that it has no real existence it will disappear, leaving behind it the experience of the real and only Self. Understand that it has no real existence and it will stop troubling you.
Consciousness is universal. There is no limitation or 'little self' in it. It is only when we identify with and limit ourselves to the body and the mind that this false sense of self is born. If, through enquiry, you go to the source of the 'little self', you find that it dissolves into nothingness.

Q.: But I am very accustomed to feel 'I am this 'little self' '. I cannot break this habit merely by thinking 'I am not this 'little self''.

AS.: This 'little self' will only give way to the real Self if you meditate constantly. You cannot wish it away with a few stray thoughts. Try to remember the analogy of the rope which looks like a snake in twilight. If you see the rope as snake the real nature of the rope is hidden from you. If you only see the rope the snake is not there. Not only that - you know that there never was a snake there. (Then) the question of how to kill the snake disappears... If you can understand that this 'little self' never at any time had any existence outside your imagination, you will not be concerned about ways and means of getting rid of it.

Q.: It is all very clear but I feel I need some help. I am not sure that i can generate this conviction by myself.

AS.: The desire for assistance is part of your problem. Don't make the mistake of imagining that there is a goal to be reached or attained. If you think like this you will start looking for methods to practice and people to help you. This just perpetuates the problem you are trying to end. Instead, cultivate the strong awareness, 'I am the Self. I am That. I am Brahman. I am everything.'.. The best way to (stop believing the wrong ideas about yourself) is to replace them with ideas which more accurately reflect the real state of affairs. ...
The Self is always attained, it is always realized; it is not something that you have to seek, reach or discover. Your vasanas and all the wrong ideas you have about yourself are blocking and hiding the experience of the real Self. If you don't identify with these wrong ideas, your Self-nature will not be hidden from you.

Cautionary advice / Re: The corruption of Satsanga
« on: November 25, 2012, 06:33:54 PM »
The corruption of Satsanga

Today Satsang Culture is a reflection of what people are . You get the Gurus that reflect your inner nature .
The real meaning of Satsang is 'association with the Wise', preferably the Self-realised Sages (Jnani's) who speak only of God and fully practice dharma (righteousness), though Sages who are not yet Self-realised, but live according to the rules of dharma are also considered to be Wise.

Today's Gurus are no doubt Good speakers but there is less Dharma in their own day to day life but then again it comes back to people i.e how many people live Dharmic life ? Gurus emerge only from those set of people .

Today the word 'satsang' is widely used to promote what can only be described as talking-shops (the opposite of satsang), where self-appointed gurus pontificate about subjects they know little or nothing about, manufacture their own poisoned theories, indulge in cheap psychology and pursue their vices. They also expect you to pay for all of this in every possible way.

You pay to listen to talks on silence  :)

You can download 'The Mother with Letters on the Mother' from this site:
Thanks Ravi .

The personal effort required is a triple labour of aspiration, rejection and surrender :

 •an aspiration vigilant, constant, unceasing ― the mind’s will, the heart’s seeking, the assent of the vital being, the will to open and make plastic the physical consciousness and nature;

 •rejection of the movements of the lower nature •― rejection of the mind‘s ideas, opinions, preferences, habits, constructions, so that the true knowledge may find free room in a silent mind,
 •― rejection of the vital nature’s desires, demands, cravings, sensations, passions, selfishness, pride, arrogance, lust, greed, jealousy, envy, hostility to the Truth, so that the true power and joy may pour from above into a calm, large, strong and consecrated vital being,
 •― rejection of the physical nature’s stupidity, doubt, disbelief, obscurity, obstinacy, pettiness, laziness, unwillingness to change, tamas, so that the true stability of Light, Power, Ananda may establish itself in a body growing always more divine;
surrender of oneself and all one is and has and every plane of the consciousness and every movement to the Divine and the Shakti.

Sri Aurobindo   

Ravi is this from Aurobindo's "Letters on Yoga "?

General topics / Re: Tamil Scriptures
« on: November 24, 2012, 09:04:37 PM »
Thanks Subramaniam Sir putting this song of Barathidasan .

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