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Messages - atmavichar100

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1921
General topics / Re: Sangam Literature
« on: December 19, 2012, 02:06:28 PM »
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5. Bhakti literature are not on war with Sangam literature. In fact bhakti literature borrows many ideas from Sangam literature.
Both go hand in hand with each other.

Subramaniam Sir
Thanks for your detailed reply
Has any Bhakti Saints acknowledged this ? I asked a Vaishnavite friend of mine who reads Divya Prabandhams and he said there is no reference to Sangam literature in Divya Prabandhams and even Thirukural is not mentioned / acknowledged .

Om Peace .

1922
Nice dear Atmavichar,
   :) Incidentally I am also trying to learn chanting some sanskrit texts. My mental make up and comfort zone is with the reasoning stuff rather than "Svaras" etc. So I am find it a little tough to learn to chant. But have got a friend who is really patient with me and is helping me learn :). This is totally new for me. But a good learning for sure.

Tushnim

I just need to clarify here  that I am not in to Vedic Chanting which needs more serious commitment and needs the presence of a live Guru .
I am talking about  just plain Sanskrit Chanting - stotras ( mostly Adi Shankara Stotras ) , sahasra namas ( Vishnu , Siva , Lalitha , Ganga )  , Vedantic Texts like Bhagvad Gita , Ribhu Gita , Sat Darshanam , Viveka Chudamani etc

I just learn the above texts by myself using the text and audio Chants of Swami Paramarthananda or any other notable person who has clear pronunciation . I am not fond of chanting it in Raga format and like pure clear Sanskrit Chants .

Of course there are certain divine hyms rendered by MS Subhulaxmi ( Favorites being Bhaja Govindam and Vishnu Sahasranamam )  and other prominent Singers like SP Balasubramanian ( favorite being Shiva Stutis ) that I like in musical format .

As regards Vedic Chanting , I just play the CD and listen to the same in silence ( Morning : Taittriya Upanishad and some suktas and Evening : Rudram , Chamakan and some Suktas ) . Bhagwan Ramana has made a list of Vedic Chants for Morning and Evening and that is what I follow and it seems  that right from the start it has been going on without a break in Bhagwan's presence and still continues in his Samadhi shrine at Ramana Ashram and when there is a Veda Parayana , Bahgwan Ramana who most of the time  sits with his legs stretched out , will fold his legs and sit in rapt attention with his eyes closed .

As regarding taste for reasoning  v/s chanting - I feel u must just follow your natural choice and enjoy doing the same . Of course it is good to at times come out of our comfort zones to explore other dimensions to enjoy the richness of our tradition like say u need not go to temple for rituals , bhakthi but can enjoy the temples for the beautiful architecture or to listen to the wonderful chants in the temple .

Since my samskaras are more in Yoga /Upasana I follow the line of Yoga /Chanting /Solitude but at times I do come out of my comfort zone to read and  listen to Advaita Texts i.e I love to listen to Swami Paramarthannada /Omkarananada lectures and read Swami Dayananda's Transcribed lectures . Plus these days I am also reading some Rational / Atheist stuff to understand why they Criticize our Vedas, Sanathana Dharma  etc  :)

By the way I read some where that most of Atheists are successful in their life  because even to Criticize the Vedas , Bhagavad Gita ,Puranas etc they study them seriously to find the loopholes but the beauty of our Scriptures is even if he is an atheist ,it blesses him for taking effort to study in order to abuse it .

So bottom line is put effort and tap the grace . One may not have a personal Guru but one can get grace of divine texts by Chanting / Reading them seriously .I consider proper and serious chanting of Scriptural Texts( or serious reading of texts )  is the best way to get divine Grace from those texts in the absence of a personal Guru . This is Unique to Sanathana Dharma and this is what I am doing .

Om Peace

1923
General topics / Sangam Literature
« on: December 19, 2012, 01:10:01 PM »
Dear Friends

Few years back in a different  forum there was a sort of heated debate between Sangam literature and Bhakti Literature ( Thevarams , Thiruvachagam , Divya Prabandhams ) etc and the primary point of debate was that Bhakti literature hijacked the Sangam literature and they saw it as a sort of Brahmin Conspiracy as most of the Sangam works were done by Jains , Buddhist , Atheists  and was anti vedic etc ,while the supporters of Bhakti literature say that Sangam literature just focused on love , heroism , virtues etc but not on God , Moksha, Vedas  etc which Bhakti literature gave lot of emphasis and hence it became popular . The only Sangam literature that became popular with both parties was Thirukural but then it has hundreds of commentaries each contradicting one another .

I am not an expert in either Sangam literature or Bhakti literature but would like someone to throw more light on Sangam literature and how it differs from Bhakti literature .

Om Peace .

1924
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Regarding Sanskrit. Have you gone through formal sanskrit study ?

Tushnim ,
I had a basic exposure to Sanskrit through Samskrit Bharati few years back but then did not keep up the momentum . As I said my interest in it was not turning to commitment in the same . The same with study of Scriptural Texts which I did in a bits and pieces manner and not in a serious committed manner .  Of course there were other reasons for the same as I was involved in lot of outward spiritual activity  and many of it has now calmed down / come down and during this period I realized the richness and depth  of our Sanathana Dharma  in all its aspects - Karma , Bhakti , Janana , Yoga , Temple Architecture , Music , Dance , Astrology etc etc and one notable thing I found was the richness of the literature ( in Bhakti ,Yoga ,  Jnana ) left by our forefathers in Classical Sanskrit and Classical Tamil and felt Ashamed of missed learning these 2 Classical language . Though Tamil is my mother tongue and I can speak and read Tamil but it is not enough to study these classical texts . Same with Sanskrit - I can read Sanskrit but cant really understand the classical  texts . No doubt English Translations are available but they fall short in conveying the depth of meaning to these texts and can only provide a broad overview .
After listening to Swami Paramarthananda's Sanskrit Chanting of Sacred Texts and Dharmapuram Swaminathan's Chanting of Classical Tamil Texts ,I understood the power of clear and correct pronunciation . Swami Omkarananda in one of his lectures talked about the power of "Akshara Suddhi " i.e power of clear pronunciation and said it to be a great Sadhana in itself and right now I am giving prominence to learning Sanskrit / Tamil Texts with clear pronunciation .
Swami Paramarthananda has talked about Shabda / Artha i.e if you give prominence to shabda then artha will have to take a backseat and if you give prominence to artha then shabdha will take a backseat . Right now I am giving prominence to Shabda i,e sound and later go to Artha and I believe that the power of these divine shabdha will itself guide me to the right artha of those texts .
Of course this is not a strict black and white rule , I do read meaning of texts but right now my commitment is more towards memorizing the texts than to study its meaning .


Om Peace .

1925
I am just copy pasting from the other thread to carry discussions here .
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By the way for me Chanting of Sahasranama's of Shiva /Vishnu / Lalitha Devi/Ganga Ma etc are not just to develop Bhakti but also to help me learn Sanskrit , develop more one pointedness of mind as you must be completely focused while chanting without diversion . As I have considerably reduced my visits to Temples and Religious places ,I invoke God in my home itself through these divine names as well as Chanting Stotras of the same composed by Adishankara ( for Sanskrit hymns ) and by  Bhgwan Ramana and other Tamil Saints for Tamil Hymns .
Also I have taken a stand that I will read /study a text seriously only after I commit to memory  the entire text or at least some chapters of the same .I failed to do that in the past and was studying the meaning in bits and pieces and got confused  :)  I am right now doing the same for Bhagwan's Hymns , Thiruppavai and also for Adi Shankara's Stotras and the same applies to Bigger texts like Bhagwad Gita /Upanishads /Ribhu Gita etc . This is a form of minimum commitment / seriousness to the subject of Study . Having desire / interest is one thing but having commitment is a different thing and I am making a slow transition  from interest to commitment  and for which I need the support of Ishwara and get his grace and hence this effort of daily chanting of divine text and divine names :)

Om Peace .


Quote
Dear Atmavichar,
       :) Commitment is an absolute must.
There is what is called vyavasayatmika buddhi explained in 2nd chapter of BG :)
These practises are all very useful, not the least doubt abt it.

Regarding Sanskrit. Have you gone through formal sanskrit study ?

1926
General topics / Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« on: December 19, 2012, 08:24:30 AM »
Krishna(Atmavichar),
The Iyengar traditional way of chanting does not do justice to the Sangath Tamizh Majesty of these verses!This sort of style may suit Venkatesa suprabhatam -a sing song type of rendering and this simply falls flat and misses the wonderful rhyme and rhythm and majesty of of Sangath Tamizh.TGN mentions this aspect that most of the Traditional commentators of Tiruppavai were sanskrit oriented being sanskrit scholars;so much so that vedanta Desika wrote a set of verses in Sanskrit on our Lady AndaL(alias kothai-Andal calls herself as 'PattarbhirAn Kothai';PattarbhirAn is periyalwar) and called it GodA(actually Kothai in tamizh) stuthi!That is another interesting story how Vedanta desika was graced by our AndAL and came to compose 29 verses.He was prompted to write one more by his disciples to make it 30 but he declined saying that he does want to be placed along with Andal!He stopped with 29 verses.
Namaskar.

Ravi

I do agree that Traditional way of Chanting Tamil Verses does not resonate much with the Tamil way of singing but I heard from one person that the reason why they chant this way was do "imitate the way of Vedic Chanting " and to give a feeling to those chanting these Tamil verses that these are also equal to Vedas not only in spirit but also in form and hence the "Temple Way" of Chanting is basically to make it on Par with Vedic Chanting .
In fact he referred to the Vaishnava Procession from Temples when they take God outside on the street , the first to go are these Traditioal Temple Tamil Chanting , followed by Lord Vishnu , followed by Sanskrit Vedic Chants .
The meaning is Lord Vishnu follows where Tamil is and Vedas follow where Vishnu is .

Some object to this forcible way of Chanting Tamil like Vedas but others consider it a part of Tradition and not to be tampered with modern Ragas etc .I am not competent to take position on either sides and leave it to people to take what is best for them .

Regarding Vedanta Desika,I am not aware much .I am a Smartha Brahmin and hence not in much touch with the Vaishnava Sampradaya and whatever inputs I have of the same I get it from other Vaishnava people and reading Mukkur Narasimhachariar's "Kurai Onrun Illai" series as well as watching "Vellukudi Krishnan's Talks on TV "

1927
General topics / Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« on: December 19, 2012, 07:44:16 AM »
Thiruppavai -full Traditional Chanting
Some may like the Traditional "Goshti" way of Chanting Thiruppvai  that is done in Temple and hence sharing it here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axd8mN9yWTo

1928
General topics / Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« on: December 19, 2012, 07:34:35 AM »
Friends,
TGN 's coverage is quite extensive and I am taking a fast Forward approach!We will cover the 30 verses and get a feel of the import.We may then cover anything in a Html type of approach,if need be.This should give us an ability to recite and internalize this wonderful composition.As we do this,the inner meaning and significance and True spirit will take possession of us,and this is what is important.
Namaskar.

Ravi

I suggest u take an approach that is comfortable for you .The meaning of these divine texts can never be assimilated in a short time as they have lot  of depth .So just give a basic outline for  each pasuram and we can slowly build up . I feel every year we will see these pasurams in a new light .So consider this as an ongoing project and not limited to just this Margazhi .

Om Peace .

1929
General topics / Re: Tiruppavai-Discussion
« on: December 19, 2012, 07:29:48 AM »
Nagaraj,
Yes,Nityasree's rendering of Tiruppavai verses is a fine one.The Verses were set to various Ragas by the Late  Sri Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar-and this has now become a defacto standard.All singers follow this meticulously.The Great carnatic Musician smt M L Vasanthakumari's rendering is charming as well.
For those,who wish to hear the words in the verses and at the same time would like to sing it as well,I warmly recommend the rendering of Sikkil Gurucharan & co-A group singing where the words are pronounced as they should be,without drawing long any syllable in the words to suit the music.
Namaskar

It seems Kanchi Paramacharya asked Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar to set the tune for Tiruppavai which has become now a defacto standard .Kanchi Paramacharya was the brain behind the revival of Tiruppavai and Thiruvenpavai chanting during Margazhi season .

I am following Sulamangalam Sisters Tiruppavai and it is quite long i.e each Pasuram is sung for 2 mts with many repetition but is useful for a beginner like me to understand and proceed and it does not have too much Carnatic Music except for the basic tune .I like their clarity of Pronunciation  and for Thiruvampavai I use Dharmapuram Swaminathan who is again very clear in his pronunciation .

Om Peace

1930
I would like to start with this first pointer I found in the Introduction to the text "Essence of Ribhu Gita "
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Reading of this English text alone will not be complete unless it is supported by vigorous sadhana with the help of a realised teacher, who has obtained firm abidance in Siva-Self by a life of devotion to Lord Siva. This aspect is stressed in some of the verses selected.

1931
The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Ribhu Gita - Discussions
« on: December 18, 2012, 07:29:56 PM »
Dear Friends

Tushnim has started a thread on Ribhu Gita Readings . This text "Ribhu Gita " being a favorite text of Bhagwan Ramana ,I felt it deserved its own place for discussions and hence started this thread . Tushnim is putting some selected messages in the other thread and I will also add selected passages from the book "The Essence of Ribhu Gita " and I feel we can use this thread for discussions .

Om Peace .

1932
Some points about this audio version of Siva Sahasranama :

1) It has a simple Dhyana Shloka that was selected by Kanchi Paramacharya
2) There is no Phala Shruthi here
3) Most of the words here resemble the words in Vishnu Sahasranama as mostly the attributes of God are nearly the same .
4) It is quite simple to read and finish and it will take only 20 mts to complete it .
5) Listen to the Audio Talk by Swami Shantananda Puri to understand how and why this came about and how Kanchi Paramacharya urged him to bring it out . In the PDF Sanskrit / Hindi Text , there is a good English Introduction of the same and that is also useful .
6) This Siva Sahasranama of Linga Purana is a rare version and very auspicious to be read in every home , more auspicious to be read in a Shiva Temple and even more Auspicious to be read in a Shiva Kshetra like Thiruvanamalai .  I read it daily in my home after doing a small Shiva Puja . In case I could not do it in day time , I do it in evening / night .

Om Peace .

1933

The following details are from the blog of a friend of mine who has kindly permitted to share it here and in fact he was the one who gave me the Siva Sahasranamam Text and Audio to be read and chanted and I am now sharing the same with others here .


Shiva Sahasranama of Linga Purana - Talk and chanting by Swami Shantananda Puri
http://shravanam.blogspot.in/2012/07/shiva-sahasranama-of-linga-purana-talk.html

This is a wonderful Shiva Sahasranama that has been recommended by His Holiness Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi Mahaswamigal (1894-1994) of Kanchi Mutt.


For the Sanskrit text please download from the below weblink:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/56215102/Sri-Shiva-Sahasranama
Note : The above has Sasnkrit Text with word by word meaning in Hindi but the introduction is in English and one can understand the importance of this text and how much trouble Swami Shantananda Puri had in getting the original Linga Purana version of Shiva Sahasranamam .

For tamil text please download from my Dropbox link below.
http://db.tt/NKwXlqLQ
For the audio talk in Tamil and chanting of Shiva Sahasranamam by Swami Shantananda Puri, please do the following:
a. Copy paste the links below one after another to your browser
Track 1 of audio is the talk by Swami Shantananda Puri in Tamil  – http://db.tt/omOxLEW
Track 2 of audio is the chanting by Swamiji – http://db.tt/0xrVZyJ
The audio will start playing. Right click anywhere on the screen and click “Save As” and download each of the below files.
Note : The Audio is not of studio quality as it was recorded with a simple recording device and hence it has some slight disturbance but overall better .


Om Peace .

1934
General Discussion / Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« on: December 18, 2012, 10:11:25 AM »
Dear Atmavichar,
       Ribhu Gita chapters of sanskrit and tamil are slightly different. The chapters in tamil seem to have jumbled up some verses !

I suggested those chapters coz I find them most useful. Ramana suggested chapter 26 of tamil. Subramanaian ji was saying it could be 29 of sanskrit version. I feel 25 could also be a possible candidate.

The chapters i picked are exceptional in my view.


Thanks Tushnim , will do and and will note the difference in tamil / sanskrit versions while chanting .

1935
General Discussion / Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« on: December 18, 2012, 09:56:56 AM »
Dear Atmavichar,
      :)

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Right now doing Siva Sahasranama , Aksharamana Mala , Thiruppavai  Chanting . Last month a friend of mine sent me a surprise Gift of Ribhu Gita book ( he had already given me the Audio CD of the same from Ramana Ashram ) .I will  get the Tamil version soon and chant  both sanskrit and tamil and see if I still have attachment to my shirt first and then the body 


If you chant regularly for a few days ... the attachment for shirt will vanish and then the body is seen as nothing more than a shirt :D LOL! Dont worry ... try it.
Aksharamanimalai is exceptional ...
But try with Ribhu Gita and then tell me.
Its Pure Samadhi.
Chant sanskrit lessons : 9,10,11,12,13,25 ... just these.
each chapter is a prakarana with a specific purpose.

Sure will do , but any specific reasons why those chapters listed by you .? I guess Bhagwan Ramana also pointed some Chapters are those the same as pointed by you ?

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