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Messages - cefnbrithdir

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General Discussion / Re: my musings
« on: September 18, 2012, 01:13:48 AM »

Dear Nagaraj

Thank you for returning.


Dear Sri Subramanian Sir and Anil

Your observations on Mind and Ego, Siva and Shakti, Action and Repose, masculine and feminine  are most helpful.

I have been wondering about  Bhagavan's embrace of the lingam on his arrival at Tiruvannamali after which he said  the burning sensation in his body, that  he had been experiencing,  left him.

When our bodily energy can sometimes be experienced as "pent up" it seems important that our ego/vasanas do not interfere so as to distract us from a spiritual  transcending of masculine and feminine within us  commensurate with the  unity of the Self.

How do you understand Bhagavan's physical embrace of the lingam in this instance - was he Shakti to the Siva of the lingam at that moment ? Is there something we can usefully  learn from this ?

I am also reminded of the saying in the Gospel of Thomas   "If they ask you: What is the sign of your Father in you ?, tell them: It is a movement and a rest".

Thank you


Dear Anil

"From your post..."   What a lovely thing to say.

Beyond words



Thank you both very much

Dear Anil

Please could you say where your quote about the Sun and the Moon can be found.
Very helpful.


Dear Anil

"falling into mind"

I understand what you were saying now. I also understand things the same way.

 Thank you very much.


Dear Anil

"One begins to understand that ONE IS AWARENESS WHICH NOW AND THEN FALLS INTO MIND...."

First can I say that I think "Living by the Words of Bhagavan" is a wonderful book and the final 100 pages of Conversations are a precious gem from such a devotee.

But in your final statement above did you mean that Awareness falls into Mind or rather that Mind falls into Awareness.

I know words are so poor at encompassing experience. I am finding that if you take Annamalai Swami's definite "the mind does not exist" from his Last Talks this helps me further concentrate on awareness and the process of thinking (thoughts) can shut up. But this still has a "dual feel". However if it can be  maintained it "equalises". Your attention is not distracted by any thinking as such and  there is a greater wholeness but there is a residual awareness of awareness. I am trusting that this is the way to patiently maintain and pray to come back to ....  But what I know I hope for is that the Mind will fall entirely into Awareness not the way you have put it.

I hope you do not think I am being pedantic.

General topics / Re: This moment
« on: April 09, 2012, 05:24:45 PM »
Your second Eliot passage is from the ending of Little Gidding. Though Eliot  lived till 1965, it  was first written in 1941/2 whilst air raids were happening over London. He never wrote another poem - perhaps because he felt he had said it all.

Little Gidding was the first contemplative Anglican community set up in the 1620's in a village of that name. George Herbert, a poet priest, with lines such as

"A man that looks on glass
On it may stay his eye
Or if he pleaseth through it pass
And then the heav'n espy"

was a great supporter.

Little Gidding, the poem, is granite -like but marvellous. One of the early lines that made an impact on me was

"And what you thought you came for
 Is only a shell, a husk of meaning,
From which the purpose breaks only when it is  fulfilled,
 If at all. Either you had no purpose, or the purpose is beyond the end you figured
And is altered in fulfilment"

I hope you do not mind me quoting all the ending - which includes your piece - but it seems fitting after Nagaraj's opening. And those brackets - what an aside.

The moment of the rose and the moment of the yew-tree
Are of equal duration. A people without history
Is not redeemed from time, for history is a pattern
Of timeless moments. So, while the light fails
On a winter's afternoon, in a secluded chapel
History is now and England.

With the drawing of this Love and the voice of this

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
Through the unknown, unremembered gate
When the last of earth left to discover
Is that which was the beginning;
At the source of the longest river
The voice of the hidden waterfall
And the children in the apple-tree
Not known, because not looked for
But heard, half-heard, in the stillness
Between two waves of the sea.
Quick now, here, now, always—
A condition of complete simplicity
(Costing not less than everything)
And all shall be well and
All manner of thing shall be well
When the tongues of flame are in-folded
Into the crowned knot of fire
And the fire and the rose are one.

General topics / Re: This moment
« on: April 09, 2012, 04:03:15 PM »

Thank you very much.

I laughed out loud yesterday of  Dr Adalja,  on his first visit to Bhagavan, asking a question by chit which was responded to by an attendant showing him a verse from Ulladu Narpadu which  firmly stated there were not two Selves.

A whole year later he was coming down Arunachala and seeing Bhagavan coming up the narrow path,  stepped aside and stood with closed eyes and folded hands. " When Bhagavan came near me, to my utter surprise, he asked "Do you still find two ?"

I found this very funny - and I was very peaceful afterwards.

On another occasion  he asked Bhagavan  " If waking and dream states are not different, can a man realise his Self in the dream state?" Bhagavan replied " First realise the Self in the waking state and then raise the question".

Something tells me this might be Bhagavan's contribution to some of our questions here.

Jesus could also be funny  - " You moralisers.  First take the log out of your own eye and then you will be able to see clearly  (literally "to see through") to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

A log, you know  !

General topics / Re: Vasanas after knowing the truth
« on: April 07, 2012, 01:49:48 PM »

I am surprised you are, so to speak, "left alone" with this post. What you are saying is so in keeping with the importance given by Siddharameshwar Maharaj ( and no doubt others) to devotion to your Guru after Knowledge has dawned.

I am thinking that Bhagavan's walking around Arunachala and his always living there  was his equivalent.

Thank you for all your words.

Gospel of John (Jn) 8.57  " You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham !" 8.58 "Jesus said to them "Truly I say to you before Abraham was born, I am"

Just after this is the wonderful Chapter 9. This is ostensibly about Jesus healing a blind man, but under the surface there are deeper resonating meanings.

First Jesus is asked why the man was born blind. His reply is not that he has sinned or his parents but that the works of God may be displayed in him.

Jesus sends him off to a Pool in Jerusalem to wash - which might have been quite some way for a man who was blind.

When he comes back seeing, there is almost a pantomine discussion between people as to whether this is the same man they had seen previously as a beggar. Some say yes some say no. This all leads to him replying  (in exactly the same Greek words as Jesus just before in Chapter Eight)  "I am ".

There is then a long discussion between  him and the religious authorities as to how he can now see and whether Jesus who has done this is himself a sinner or not because this healing happened on the Sabbath which broke the religious laws.  The religious authorities disbelieve him and send for his parents who say that he is of age he can speak for himself !

The man who is now full of confidence says "You don't know where he (Jesus) comes from yet he opened my eyes.... Not since time began (or could be translated "out of the eternal")  has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind".

This  resonates back to the original "fall of Adam" in the Garden of Eden.

This has been traditionally interpreted as Adam's disobedience in eating, with his wife, the apple of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which of all the food in the Garden, God had told him not to eat.

But in Advatic terms  the problem lay in Adam and Eve considering themselves separate from God before they ate anything. How else could the serpent have persuaded them that somehow God was withholding something from them and that they would become God if they ate from this Tree ? The irony is huge because Good and Evil only exist  as "realities" in a state separate from God.

But to return to the poetry of the story... when  they ate the apple "their eyes were opened they knew they were naked". That is they had a Body Consciousness. They were ashamed and  covered themselves with fig leaves and hid themselves from God.

Later God came looking for them  "Where art thou ?". Adam says "I was afraid because I was naked and I hid myself". God says "Who told you that you were naked ....."

Now to return to John Chapter 9.

Jesus' opening of the blind man eyes is the undoing of  Adam's problems  in Genesis.

See also  the Gospel of Thomas Logion 37  "His disciples said; On what day wilt thou be revealed to us and on what day shall we see thee ? Jesus said : When you unclothe yourselves and are not ashamed and take your garments and lay them beneath your feet like little children and tread upon them and then shall  ye see the Son of the living One, and ye shall not fear".

In John Chapter 1 (after the prologue) there is a  progression of titles for Jesus.

The progression starts with the disciples referring to him as Master/Rabbi/Teacher  then moves on to Christ/Messiah/Anointed One.  But the progression  ends with Jesus referring to himself as the Son of Man. The chapter concludes  with Jesus saying  "I tell you the truth, you shall see heaven open and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man".

This clearly refers to the story - again in Genesis - of Jacob's Ladder. Jacob dreams of a ladder set up on earth and reaching to heaven and the angels of God ascending and descending on it. God stood above it and said " I am the God of Abraham ....and  in they seed shall all  the families of the earth be blessed".

When Jacob woke up, he said "Surely the Lord is in this place and I knew it not. How awesome is this place. This is none other than the house of God and this is the gate of heaven".

So Jesus as Son of Man is  the passageway from earth to heaven and for a new realisation of the earth.

See also in Luke 17.21 Jesus says  "the Kingdom of God will not come with observation (of external things) nor will they say "Look here it is" or "There it is "  (advaita !) for the Kingdom of God is within you". 
Gospel of Thomas Logion 3  "But the Kingdom is within you and it is outside of you. When you know yourselves then shall you be known and you shall know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty and you are that poverty". 
And later Logion 113 " His disciples said to him: On what day will the kingdom come ? Jesus said; "It cometh not with observation. They will not say Lo here ! or Lo there! But the kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth and men do not see it ".

But again to return to John Chapter 9.

The same progression of titles is here as in Chapter 1. First Rabbi,  then (only as an aside)  Christ,  and finally on the momentous occasion when the  man (the second "I am") meets again and sees for the first time Jesus.

Jesus says to him   "Do you believe in the Son of Man ? "  The man says " I believe Lord " and he worshipped him.

The Greek verb used  here  - proskunew - is terribly strong in John. It is only  used for worship of God. So this is the first and only time in the Gospel that Jesus is worshipped.  And by a devotee who prostrates himself before the person who has made him one with himself.

Gospel of Thomas Logion 106  " Jesus said:  When you make the two one, you shall become Sons (plural) of Man (singular) and when you say: Mountain be moved, it shall be moved".



Dear Ramana

Reading your concerns about free will and destiny, I keep on thinking that this is your mind whirring around. Would not Bhagavan be asking you something like  "Who is having these thoughts?" "Find out where these thoughts are coming from" and eventually "See then  whether you still have these thoughts and questions ...."

I believe you have a  Christian background - the same as mine. We have so much baggage to contend with  - in this context Calvin comes to mind. But also the difficulties of understanding  Jesus's words where from the start there was much editing, amalgamating, difficulties of establishing context and what was appropriate for one person as opposed to another at a particular time. Sayings can appear to conflict and your concerns on this subject prompted me to think  about  not being a stumbling block to others. But we can only look towards God, "the kingdom of heaven" is at least initially within us; we have to take the log out of our own  eye before we can take the speck out of others and in the end the teaching on the  question of doership or rather non doership is the same. To paraphrase  Margaret Fell the early Quaker  - we have taken the scriptures in words, but  we have to know them within ourselves.

One of the many wonderful graces of Bhagavan is that here is the same teaching and power  refreshing and illuminating the words and teaching of the  Son of Man.   (Have you read the Gospel of Thomas ?)

I  have also received much from  Sri Siddharameshwar Maharaj's  "Master of Self - Realization".  I find his way of expressing himself  very "clean".  My response to Bhagavan is more "emotional". I need both and alternate in my reading.  Sri Siddharameshwar also  uses words, expressions  and analogies which resonate Gospel words to me. It is an illuminating and affirming experience. It is all the same.

General topics / Re: Handling samsaric problems
« on: March 13, 2012, 04:25:15 PM »

Dear Achalam

I greatly appreciate Nagaraj's words.  Your final paragraph is also fine but do we not for the time being  wander back and forth between being  more centred away from  our minds and then less so. And when less so we can become agitated.

Theology is useful but can be  confusing as to where is its own centre of gravity.  Coming from a Christian perspective, a theology that is so  "Self" centred has been immensely  helpful.

  However the mind can be helped and satisfied by the conceptions and knowledge of  what has been experienced, if only temporarily, at a deeper level where ultimately theology ceases to exist.
That can help us back into focus  " a single eye" and further experience.

That all is a dream outside the Self and Annamalai Swami's advice to continue to remember  that we are not separate - even when we become agitated into thinking we are- are great props along the way.

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