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Messages - gangajal

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31
I think it is impossible in these matters to prove in any debate who is right and who is wrong. 

32
Dear Silence, Subramanian,

          Patanjali's Yoga Sutra is a dualistic system which considers Isvara as a special Purusha. On that ground alone, followers of Kevala Advaita school will not accept it. However, even Bhagavan Ramana accepts the need for activation of chakras. Just check his discussion of hrit chakra (heart chakra) in "Talks with Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi".

         Yes, I did read Sri Ramana's statement about celibacy as only an option. I do not see how it can only be an option. It is not possible to awaken the Kundalini and to activate the chakras without strict celibacy. Moreover Sri Ramakrishna stresses the need for celibacy for higher experiences.

         I also do not accept that only Jnana can lead to the Advaita experience. Even Bhakti can lead to the same experience although Bhaktas usually do not want such an experience. I recall reading somewhere Bhagavan Ramana admitting the even Japa can lead to the Advaita experience. So he must disagree with Shankara's position that only jnana can yield the Advaita experience. Of course Sri Ramakrishna says that Bhakti also leads to the Advaita experience.

        It is NOT possible to keep spiritual experiences separate from the linga sarira. We do not 'see' God because of impurities in our linga sarira. The various techniques used in sadhana, vichara, bhakti, karma, raja yoga, are there to purify the linga sarira.

        I am not advanced enough to know if Vichara is the best method for chittasuddhi!

Regards

Gangajal
         

33
Dear Avinash

What you have written here,

''I come across a basic question, in the above process are we not presupposing some kind of model to exist. .....................
I always fear if continuing to believe in such a process, there is a chance of hypnotizing myself. I hope I am able to reach you guys and am in sync with you. Initially I used to believe Sri RK very much( even now I put into practice some of his teachings). But at one stage I felt may be I am believing more ? AM not sure if this is the right way of thinking.

How does one demarcate between this "believing it as a result of our feeling  it"  and "feeling it as a result of our  believing  it""

is spot on. One can never be sure if one is not hypnotizing oneself. So one must follow what sages and saints actually say about the experience.

What Silence is not understanding is that all Yogic paths ultimately lead to the activation of Sahasrara Chakra in the linga sarira (subtle body).
The minimum requirement for that is the activation of Ajna Chakra which leads to Chitta suddhi. No one can have chittasuddhi without many years of celibacy and practice of meditation. The Yogi will have many experiences before ultimate realization. These experiences can even be at the physical level (like physiological changes of the body) and at the mental level. It is these cumulative changes which convince a person that he is not hallucinating. It is not even necessary to be convinced that the theory of the scripture is right. All one has to have is sraddha.

Gangajal

34
Dear Subramanian,
   I agree with what you have written. The sages can not express their experience. What I am
trying to tell Silence is that we will also have to have the same experience. Mere intellectual
knowledge is not enough.

Regards

Gangajal

35
Dear Gangajal,
          :) Let me tell the practise now... Coz i am sure  you are more interested in what to do. :)

Having known your are consciousness... live it. Live a Ramana's life. Just become witness of everything that happens... the mind might have lots of thoughts, worries, ideas ... allow them to remain... u just witness.

Love!
Silence


Dear Silence,

     Your claim that the scripture does not talk of any experience will mean that there is no way
to test the scriptural claims. You say here that ,'Having known you are consciousness..'. How can
one know that one is consciousness?

Look at the following statement by Subramanian,'Because they cannot express what is experiential.'
What this suggests is that one has to directly experience that one is consciousness. Simply knowing
it at the intellectual level is not enough. You will have to directly experience it. A minimum requirement
is chittasuddhi, or purification of chitta (an aspect of the mind). What is the seat of chitta? It is located in
the subtle body in the Ajna Chakra in the forehead. Chittasuddhi implies that you will have changes in
your body, Kundalini Shakti will be active in you, Ajna Chakra will have to be pierced. Then one will have
to completely activate Sahasrara Chakra which is a near impossible task.

You say, 'Live a Ramana's life'. If only it were that easy!

Gangajal

36
Dear Silence,

The statement that, 'Consciousness, Awareness -- is Brahman, Atma.' is merely
an intellectual position. I could also tell you that medical doctors say that
consciousness is a product of the functioning of the brain. So how can we know
definitively that scripture and Yogis are in fact right that 'Consciousness,
Awareness -- is Brahman, Atma' and that 'it is that which enables all
experiences... which makes experiences possible.'? It seems to me that in the
absence of any testing method there is a good possibility that the medical doctors
are in fact right!

The question that I am asking is how did the sages and saints and the rishis
who wrote the scriptural Maha Vakyas come to know that Consciousness is
Brahman and that it makes possible all experiences? Or are you asking me to
take at face value the scriptural assertion. It seems to me to be a reasonable
assumption that there must be some way to test the scriptural claim. Otherwise,
why should one believe it? This testing is what I am calling experience.

Regards

Gangajal

37
Dear Raju,
           :) Nirguna is here and now to be seen. Saguna may or may not manifest for someone.
To a bhakta how does it matter how God appears? Its God, that is suffice isnt it ? whether he comes dressed in Jeans or totally naked ... he has already consumed us ! That is the essence.

Love!
Silence

Dear Silence,
    I doubt very much what you have written,'Nirguna is here and now to be seen. Saguna may or may not manifest for someone.'.
You seem to be defining Nirguna experience at the intellectual level. Sri Ramakrishna used to say that the Saguna experience is in fact easier than the Nirguna experience since it is easier to fix one's mind on a Divine Form than fix one's mind by Vichara.

   Moreover whether you use the path of enquiry or the path of devotion, you will notice changes in your body. I have given below a quote from Sri Ramakrishna on the necessary change.

"To be able to realize God, one must practise absolute continence. Sages like
Sukadeva are examples of urdhavreta. Their chastity was absolutely unbroken.
There is another class, who previously have had discharges of semen but who
later on have controlled them. A man controlling the seminal fluid for twelve
years develops a special power. He grows a new inner nerve called medha nadi
(the nerve of memory). Through that nerve he remembers all, he understands
all.

Loss of semen impairs the strength. But it does not injure one if one loses it
in a dream. That semen one gets from food. What remains after nocturnal
discharge is enough. But one must not know a woman.

The semen that remains after nocturnal discharge is very 'refined'. The Lahas
kept jars of mloasses in their house. Every jar had a hole in it. After a
year they found that the molasses had crystallized like sugar candy. The
unnecessary watery part had leaked out through the hole."

--- Sri Ramakrishna

Even after such changes, it is difficult to experience the Nirguna Brahman because it is very difficult to remove all worldly taints. It is in fact easier to experience Saguna Brahman.

Regards

Gangajal

38
Yes, now I agree with you Silence!

39
Dear Silence,

    I was responding to your assertion that the ego is even now not there. In that post
you said that, 'Body is never alive... so it is neither born nor dies!'.   Yet you have no
problem taking medicine to cure the dead body!

   I suggest that the statement, 'Body is never alive... so it is neither born nor dies!' is not
true for us. So when is such a statement true? I think such a statement is true only when
one is in ego-less Nirvikalpa samadhi. Otherwise you will run into paradoxes!

   I also think that the ego is a real problem It is a real problem since as Sri Ramakrishna says,
'Maya is nothing but the egotism of the embodied soul. This egotism has covered everything like
a veil'. The ego is an expression of the Divine Maya shakti. This is the reason why it is non-trivial
to go past it.

Regards

Gangajal

40
Dear Gangajal,
    :)
Sorry for delaying the response...

Quote
:) Are you forgetting that both Ramakrishna and Ramana took medicines from doctors ? Ramana , i think, did not refuse to get operated... he mentioned that anesthesia is not required for operating it. Perhaps he considered it equivalent to taking drugs.
But both had pain. Ramakrishna too had suffering.

Please do not think that just because you are a Jnani you will not feel pain.
Pain will be there. Discomfort will be there --- Ramakrishna, had discomfort.
If pain is relieved, there is more comfort. Ramakrishna's Gospel talks abt it.

But Pain does not get converted into "Suffering" . Physically the pain is there, The acceptance is so complete, there is no suffering.
The Discomfort is not "unhappiness" . They are not unhappy.

You might have seen Jnani's but not recognized them. You might have met them, but coz your ur preconditionings, you may not understand them... for exampled if you think that someone should not go to a doctor if he is a jnani... Ramakrishna and Ramana are not jnani's too! Please ... a person who is ill and does not go to a doctor ... is not a jnani ... he is stupid! Please understand this.

Its like, i am an expert driver, therefore i wont take my car to the mechanic when it gives a problem.

That is a perfect sign that the person has gone nuts.
And please, just becoz Ramakrishna did it, dont throw money into waters ... if u do not want it, give it to the poor ... money is not the problem ... money does not say : " please pick me up, put in your pocket and feel proud"... we do that. We do not know how to handle money ... not knowing ourselves, we start to think that money makes us complete and become greedy. The money in your shelves does not even know u r the owner. it cannot trouble u. that is why when a thief picks it up, it does not even protest ... the thief comes, takes away the money and the money does not care! i become mad ! coz i, not knowing myself as the Self, associated my own completeness with the money. Ramakrishna was trying to get rid of his greed, but i think better would have been to give it to someone for whom it can be of use.

Lets be jnani's but also be intelligent. lets go to doctor for curing our diseases, not to a Swami. Let us go to the car machanic when car gets into trouble ... not pray before it! and for mental health ... eat good food, exercise ... but when you cannot eat some food, dont become a miserable person... when you have a body that is ill, accept ... that is the sign of a jnani.

Love!
Silence

Dear Silence,
      I read in a book that Sri Ramana refused to amputate his arm to prevent the cancer from spreading.
Any way, if as you say that one should take medicine for the illness of the body (a very sensible advice)
then how can you say that the body is dead?
      I asked a resident of a Ramakrishna Vedanta center if Sri Ramakrishna felt pain during his cancer. He told me that
according to the Swamis, Sri Ramakrishna did not feel any pain during his cancer.

Regards

Gangajal

41
Dear Subramanian and Sankar,
     Both of you are correct.

Regards

Gangajal

42
Well, Doership is not there even now.

The body and brain are dead entities.
Consciousness/God is pure witness.
Who is the doer here ?
Doership is just a thought in the mind !

That is why "Om Namh Sivaya" means I am not... Namah.... only OM, or Siva IS.
So in Siva's Siva Tandavam, i appear alive ... Truely this is a Seva even now ...
Siva is birthless and deathless.
Body is never alive... so it is neither born nor dies!


Love!
Silence

Dear Silence,
     If you really believe that 'Body is never alive... so it is neither born nor dies! ' then you
should not call a doctor when you become sick. A Jnani must consider his own body as
like dirt. Sri Ramana refused operation to save himself from cancer. Sri Ramakrishna scolded
his disciples for asking him to request the Divine Mother for curing his cancer.

    It is a non-trivial matter to be a Jnani! I am yet to see one although I sat through nearly 750
lectures given by different Swamis of Ramakrishna Order and other organizations from 1985 to 2000.

Regards

Gangajal

43
DEAR SIR,

YOUR POSSIBLE WAYS ARE TELLING THE CONCEPT OF SURRENDER, AND ULTIMATELY TO REACH THE STATE OF SURRENDER ALONE.

IS IT NOT THAT SURRENDER WHO FIXES HIS MIND AND HEART ON HIM CONTINUOUSLY ON HIM AND HAS NO DOERSHIP FOR ACTIONS PERFORMED BY HIM. WHEN WE DO WORK WITHPUT DOERSHIP IT IS SURRENDER ONLY AS I SUPPOSE; BECAUSE WE PUT ALL THE FRUITS OF ACTION ON HIM AND WE ARE FREE FROM IT.

WE MAY FOLLOW ANY WAY ONE CHOOSES BUT FINALLY HE REACHES ENQUIRY OF THE TRUTH, THEN ULTIMATELY SURRENDERS TO THE SELF. THIS IS WHAT I MEANT. WITHOUT SURRENDER ONE CAN NOT ATTAIN SALVATION, BECAUSE EGO IS THE HINDERANCE TO THE SURRENDER. AS LONG AS WE SAY SURRENDER IS DIFFICULT WE ARE NOT READY FOR SURRENDER.

AS SURRENDER REQUIRES INNOCENCE, WE ARE THINKING WITH OUR INTELLIGECE HOW CAN SURRENDER. INTELLIGENCE IS ANOTHER KIND OF ENEMY(EGO) WHICH IS OBSTRUCTING US FROM SURRENDER.

PLEASE ENQUIRE DEEPLY IN SILENCE YOU WILL FIND THE NECESSARY ANSWER.

SURRENDER ALONE SUCCEEDS.
TRUTH ALONE TRIUMPHS
KNOW THE TRUTH
BE THE TRUTH.

SIVA SIVA ARUNACHALA SIVA

Surrender is only for the aspirant. The question of surrender does not arise for a person who can directly see
that he is not the doer.

44
Conversation on the reality of Divine form in Ramakrishna Kathamrita:

Ramdayal (to Shashadhar):"The scriptures speak of Brahman's form as a
projection of mind. Who is it that projects?"

Shashadhar:"It is Brahman Itself that does so. It is no projection of
man's mind".

Pratap:"Why does Brahman project the form?"

Sri Ramakrishna:"You ask why? Brahman doesn't act in consultation with others.
It is Brahman's pleasure. Brahman is self-willed."

(Pandit Shashadhar was a famous Vedanta teacher at that time.)

45
Dear Subramanian ji, Gangajal,
                 :)

I am not yet convinced that Ramana disapproved the "cat" marga. I think he approved it when he said : surender completely... leave everything to God. Whether or not he called it "cat" marga, he mentioned specifically that one should surrender completely.

And for those who could not do it, partial surrender was suggested... this is "monkey" marga.

This is my understanding...

And Gangajal ... Ramana was a great Bhakta at heart... his Arunachala Akshara manimalai ... if u listen it has statements like :
"i have a friend, having made this faith firm, dont leave me in the ocean of Samsara" ... and
"you are more loving than a Mother, how come you do not remove my ignorance"
etc...

His bhakti was of the kind you mentioned: I requote...

Quote
"A man is truly free, even here in this embodied state, if he knows that God
is the true agent and he by himself is powerless to do anything."
--- Sri Ramakrishna

"Give up every thing to Him, resign yourself to Him and there will no trouble
for you. Then you will come to know that every thing is done by His will."
--- Sri Ramakrishna

And i think this is the essence of True Living... just leave it totally to him.... which means, you understand 100% that things happen as per God and you are not the doer ... that is things are getting done through us, we are not the doers of the actions that happen.
Firmly holding onto this conviction one gets rid of all sense of doership and firmly abides in God (Self) itself.
isnt this so ?
Just Strenghten the faith... and cling to it like a monkey until it becomes so natural that you become a cat totally.
cat attitude ... cling to it like a monkey ;)

Love!
Silence


Dear Silence,
   Yes, I agree with what you have written. The only thing is that it is a nontrivial matter to get rid of all sense of doership. Intense
spiritual practice is needed to get rid of all sense of doership.

Regards

Gangajal

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