Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - gangajal

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
Dear Silence,
     Thank you for the information regarding Tirupathi.



Dear Subramanian,

     Thank you for the clarification.



Dear Silence,
      I have a question for you about a completely different topic. Do you know the policy of Lord Venkataswara temple in Tirupati. Do they allow white Hindus to enter the temple?



Dear Gangajal,

That statement essentially is a restatement of what i was saying: You are not the Doer. Things happen through you, you are not the one who is doing. A devotee of Ramana says: I am like a flute... it is the wind that whistles. Please see the simplicity of this...

There is nothing like "Attainment" of self ... You are it. But doership has to die... but doership dies of itself ... in due course. That you are inquiring into Spirituality is already a sign that your "doer-ship" 's time has come...

So this is how it happens ... someone who wants to know the Truth ... if he is ready , hears this: You are not the Doer ... and if he is truely ready "FLASH" he is free.

If he is not ready, he might take a different track ... keep on putting limitations on himself ... and one fine day, he would hear this again --- lo! Flash, he is free.


Dear Silence,

      It would be lovely if it happens like ,"You are not the Doer ... and if he is truely ready "FLASH" he is free. ". In reality Spiritual practice is a hard slog trying to remove impurities or obstacles.

     Let me tell you a conversation with some of us and a certain Swami S some years ago. I attended 4 lectures by the Swami on Pancadasi. After the lecture ended some of us met the Swami outside the lecture hall. An American asked the Swami whether he knew anyone who has experienced Savikalpa Samadhi. The Swami smiled and said yes. Then he asked us if we noticed anything wrong with his behavior. I
got the distinct impression that he was stuck at some point and he was trying to find out the reason for his spiritual problem. People fail because they have failed to completely purify their heart.



Disidentifying with the nonself amounts to attaining the self because you are already that.Spiritual discipline is a process of negation of nonself
rather than attaining the self.


Yes! Yes! Yes!

No amount of spiritual practice can yield Ultimate Realization. All that spiritual practices do is reduce the obstacle somewhat. As both you and Subramanian have written there are 2 other factors, Atman choosing and time.



Dear Subramanian,

     What you have written here, "But Atman can be attained only through self enquiry, the jnana marga. " is the standard Kevala Advaita position. I am posting below a Sri Ramakrishna quote which does not agree with the Kevala Advaita position:

"Bhaktiyoga is the religion for this age. But that does not mean that the lover
of God will reach one goal and the philosopher (Jnani) and worker (Karmayogi)
another. It means that if a person seeks the knowledge of Brahman he can
attain It by following the path of Bhakti too.
God, who loves His devotee,
can give him the knowledge of Brahman if He so desires.

But the Bhakta wants to realize the Personal God endowed with form and talk
to Him. He seldom seeks the knowledge of Brahman. But God, who does everything
at His pleasure, can make His devotee the heir to His infinite glories if it
pleases Him.
He gives His devotee both the love of God and knowledge of
Brahman. If one is able to reach Calcutta, one can see the Maidan and the
musuem and other places too. The thing is how to reach Calcutta."

--- Sri Ramakrishna

Dear Subramanian, Silence,

         Most people fail to find the cause. This is true even for the vast majority of monks. This is
the reason why most monks fail to get ultimate realization.

         In fact all that spiritual practices do is to purify our hearts, i.e., treat the symptoms. Very few people can
treat the cause of their symptom. One reason why they fail is actually stated in the Upanishads:

"That Self cannot be gained by the Veda, nor by understanding, nor by much
learning. He whom the Self chooses, by him the Self can be gained. The Self
chooses him as his own.
"(Mundaka Upanishad III.2.3)

Self realization is a gift of the Atman. No one can attain it through one's own effort. What one can do on one's
own effort (even here help from Guru is useful) is to purify one's heart.  So if Atman has not chosen you then no
human effort to treat the cause will succeed.

Another reason is time. If the time is not right the spiritual aspirant will not succeed. I have posted below Vyasa's lecture on
the importance of time:

No man can acquire anything by his own acts or by sacrifices and worship. No
man can give anything to a fellow man. Man acquires everything through Time.
The Supreme Ordainer has made the course of Time the means of acquisition.
By mere intelligence or study of the scriptures, men, if Time be unfavorable,
cannot acquire any earthly possession. Sometimes an ignorant fool may succeed
in winning wealth. Time is the efficacious means for the accomplishment of
all acts. During times of adversity, neither science, nor incantations, nor
drugs, yield any fruits. In times, however, of prosperity, those very things,
properly applied, become efficacious and bear success. By Time the winds blow
violently; by Time the clouds become rain charged; by Time tanks become
adorned with lotuses of different kinds; by Time trees in the forest become
decked with flowers. By Time nights become dark or lighted. By Time the moon
becomes full. If the Time for it does not come, trees do not bear flowers and
fruits. If the Time for it does not come, the currents of rivers do not
become fierce. Birds and snakes and deer and elephants and other animals
never become excited when the Time for it does not come. If the Time for it
does not come, women do not conceive. It is with Time that winter, and summer,
and the rainy seasons come. If the Time for it does not come, no one is born
and no one dies. If the Time does not come, the infant does not acquire the
power of speech. If the Time does not come, one does not acquire youth. It is
with Time that the seed sown puts forth its sprouts. If the Time does not
come, the Sun does not appear above the horizon, nor, when the Time for it
does not come, does he repair to the Asta hills. If the Time for it does not
come, the Moon does not wax nor wane, nor the ocean, with its high billows,
rise and ebb. .... The irresistible course of Time affects all mortals. All
earthly things, ripened by Time, suffer destruction. Some slay some men. The
slayers again are slain by others. This is the language of the world. Really,
however, no one slays and no one is slain. Some one thinks men slay (their
fellow-men). Another thinks men do not slay. The truth is that the birth and
destruction of all creatures have been ordained to happen in consequence of
their very nature. ... This body even is not mine. Nothing in this earth is
mine. Or, the things of this earth belong as much to others as to me. The
wise, seeing this, do not suffer themsleves to be deluded. There are thousands
of causes for sorrow, and hundreds of causes for joy. These everyday affect
the ignorant only, but not him that is wise. These in course of Time, become
objects of affection or aversion, and appearing as bliss or woe revolve (as if
in a wheel) for affecting living creatures.

(Mahabharat: Santi Parva Section XXV)



Dear Silence,
      Yes, what you have written is theoretically correct.However, your advice to 'Correct the cause, not the symptoms.', seems to me
not to be practical. I think the symptoms also need to be treated. Otherwise the patient may die! One has to first cleanse the mirror of the
heart. Otherwise it is impossible to attain Self realization.



Linga Sarira is a reflecting medium of Pure conscious being.At present that mirror is ridden with dust of tendencies.
Tendencies persists only with our encouragement to them.The very attending to the tendencies is to give them
strength.Whatever the spiritual practice one has to withdraw attending to the tendencies and clean te mirror of
the mind so that there is exact reflection of pure conscious being in it.In self-enquiry we attend to the source of
the mind rther than the contents of the mind.Once we stop attending to the contents of the mind their grip on
the mind becomes less and less,finally the contents die a natural death because of lack of food supply,their food
being attention.Unless the mirror of the mind is cleaned reflection of Pure conscious being in it is not possible.

Absolutely wonderful, DRPVSSNRAJU! You have very clearly made the point I was trying to make.



The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Re: Instant Liberation.
« on: September 29, 2008, 11:37:39 PM »
Dear Silence,Subramanian,

        Sri Ramakrishna says that people like Sankara who did write many books and worked very hard kept an 'ego of knowledge'
to do the various work that they did. Such 'ego of knowledge' is only possible for those who are liberated. An un-liberated Jiva will
certainly not be able to do such a thing without a sense of doership.
       Silence, you have written, 'i agree, my sense of doership is not totally vanquished.'. This seems to contradict the title of
your thread,"Instant liberation". One would have expected you to be instantly liberated!!



Dear Silence,
 Let me point to the following points in 'Genuine directions to the true seeker(3)' posted by Subramanian:

29. Heart is the temple and seat of God.

30. The first lesson of the sannyasis is to keep a pure heart.

A pure heart is the minimum requirement for spiritual practice to succeed. This pure heart is attained by Chittasuddhi. The seat of Chitta is Ajna Chakra. So one can NOT avoid cleaning the linga sarira in any spiritual practice.



The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Re: Instant Liberation.
« on: September 26, 2008, 11:49:24 PM »
Hi Friends,

so want to have instant liberation ? Right now ? Ok ... ill consider three classes of people here :
a) Those who are laughing at me!
b) Those who are neutral
c)  Those who are hoping.

for (a) and (b) this is not the post.

For (c) ...

The technique is simple : You are not the doer. Things are just happening through you. You are not the doer.

Its Release, if you meditate on it and understand.


Dear Silence,
      The very fact that you are posting this suggests that you have the idea of doership. No one can post something without the ego.
So yes, if you do not have the sense of doership then you are free. The problem is in trying to attain that state.



Dear Silence,

      Yes, from the point of view of vyavaharika level you can interpret the word unreal to mean transitory. From the point of view of paramarthika I believe that the universe and its living beings do not exist. I am also glad that you feel your mind! I also agree with you that, 'the root of the problem is mental identification with mind and body  ... We have to see the problem and eliminate it. So we need not eliminate mind ... nor eliminate the body ... we need to eliminate identification with these.'.

      My problem is with your statement, 'Don't touch any of these ... just curl back into the Consciousness ... and then, the body, subtle body and mind are where they are... you are pure witness of them all !'  Surely you can see that your advice not to touch any of these directly contradicts your statement,'Chitta Suddhi is not "Controlling Mind" ... it is purification ...'. How would you purify your chitta without 'touching' it? I know you have argued that purification means,'not identifying with all these ... That is all ... Nothing else what so ever. A mind that does not identify "I" with body , subtle body and mind is simply the mind that is pure... coz it works right way.'  What I am saying is that it is not possible for a mind full of lust, greed, anger, jealousy, ego, deception etc to not identify with the sthula and linga sarira.

     No spiritual practice will succeed unless you cleanse your chitta of lust, greed, anger, jealousy, ego, deception etc. Such a cleansing will automatically open your Ajna Chakra which is the seat of chitta!  It doesn't matter whether you use the path of enquiry or the path of Yoga or any other path to cleans your mind.

    You have stated that,'No Ajna chakra, no Pranayama, pratyahara etc... All that is futile waste of time. Someone who is not convinced will do them to learn they are waste of time ! [Pranayama can have physical benefits not ... spiritual]'. Some people might think these are waste of time. Then there are others who do not find these waste of time. It all depends on one's experience.



I notice that many followers of Advaita mix the positions proper for paramarthika with those proper for vyavaharika level.
Such mixing leads to claims that purity leads us away from Advaita and that linga sarira does not matter in Advaita. The unreality
of the world is a paramarthika satya. It is not true from the point of view of vyavaharika.

Dear Avinash,
     You have raised the following issues:

1. You find the concept of purifying linga sarira to be ambiguous. You are saying that since 'purity or impurity is a relative phenomena. What seems to pure to one could be impure to another. The same holds true for the concept or right and wrong.'.

2. You feel that the concept of linga sarira is itself a wrong reference frame as far as Advaita is concerned. Hence,
you say that 'when the reference frame is itself wrong, the attributes that we define in that frame has no meaning.'
You also say,'once one is affirming the existence of purity, he is indirectly affirming the duality aspect. SO as long
as one is stressing on the purity aspect, he is more moving away from the aspect of advaita.'.

3. The patanjali yoga sutras have no locus standi as far as Advaita Vedanta is concerned.

4. You also say that,'Ramana points out so does SRK, committing sin is humane. But brooding on that is really sinful.
And as long as we experience this linga sarira we belong to humane creed.'.

This would be my answer to your 4 issues or questions:

You have actually answered your questions when you say in point 4 that, 'as long as we experience this linga sarira we belong to humane creed'. Indeed, you are right. Right now, unless you or any other member are Self realized, you feel the existence of the mind.
Neither the body nor the mind nor the world are unreal to you. You have yourself admiited that when you have written that you experience the 'linga sarira' in point 4. It does not matter what Advaita is saying.

So what can we deduce from the fact that the mind is real to us and that it is a small fraction of the linga sarira? We deduce that it is IMPOSSIBLE to claim that linga sarira is a wrong reference frame simply because it is unreal as far as Advaita is concerned. Even Shankaracharya admits this when he says that 'Chittasuddhi' is sine qua non for a spiritual aspirant. The seat of Chitta is in Ajna Chakra in the linga sarira. No one can reach the ultimate state without gaining control of the Ajna Chakra. The piercing of Ajna Chakra leads gradually to 'Chittasuddhi'.  If the linga sarira is a wrong reference frame then why would Shankaracharya ask for chittasuddhi when chitta is part of the linga sarira?

This also answers the issue you raised about the relativity of purity and impurity. The piercing of the chakras of the linga sarira is the definition of purity. The issue of  relativity of phenomena is a non sequitur issue.

It is true that Advaita does not accept the dualistic stance of Patanjali's Yoga Sutra. Nevertheless, the practice of stilling the mind is accepted by Advaita.

As far as I know Sri Ramakrishna did ask us not to brood over sins. He also asked us not to commit sins.

So when does the Advaitic concepts od unreality of linga sarira apply? It certainly does not apply to us who are experiencing the mind part of the linga sarira. Only that person can say that the linga sarira is unreal who has actually 'seen' that. Otherwise even a beginner would commit sin, kill, rape and loot and say that he is doing nothing since stressing on the purity aspect implies moving away from the aspect of advaita.

Any way this is my opinion.



Pages: 1 [2] 3 4