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Messages - Subramanian.R

General Discussion / Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
« on: August 22, 2008, 03:54:39 PM »
Dear srkudai,  You said it.  In retrospect, I think, Bhagavan
said this "Suddha manas" concept for two reasons.  One is
to clarify the doubt of the seekers, as how can Bhagavan do
all the work in this world,  without mind.  Second, many of us are damn afraid of mano-nasa, thinking that we would then go mad!  Bhagavan
said:  All right, do not be afraid, have a Suddha manas.  This reminds
me of a story in management.  A person had a monkey, hung
permanently around his neck and the knot was so tight that
no one could untie it.  One doctor said:  All right, I shall sedate
you, so that the monkey will not trouble you and he was put
on sedation.  Another came and said:  No I shall not sedate you,
I shall sedate the monkey, and the monkey was sedated so that
it could not trouble that man.  After sometime, nothing worked.
Then one another doctor came and said:  It is simple, I shall
untie the knot;  he untied it, with some difficulty and both the
man and the monkey became peaceful.  After some time,
the man came again!  I am so much used to monkey and now I am
not able to live without the monkey!  Then the doctor said:
All right, I shall paint a monkey on your chest!  You can always
"feel"  that the monkey is ever with you.  He did the painting,
and the man became peaceful without any further problem.
The painted monkey, is perhaps, the Suddha manas!

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (60)
« on: August 22, 2008, 03:42:52 PM »
The Chapter II continues....

Verse 47:-  As the power to burn exists in fire, the power
of Maya, which has not existence independent of Brahman,
and which is inferred by the effect only, exists in Brahman.
Before the effect appears, the power behind the effect is not
directly experienced by anyone anywhere.

Verse 48:-  The power of a substance is not the substance
itself, as for instance, the power to burn is not the fire itself.
Similarly, Maya which is the power of Brahman, is not Brahman.
If Power is something other than Brahman, then define its

Verse 49:-  If you say the nature of Maya is 'nothingness',
then you contradcit yourself in as much as you said that
'nothing' is the effect of Maya.  And as we have said, an
effect of a thing cannot be its nature, an effect being posterior
to the thing.  So you will have to admit that Maya, is neither
'sunya' nor Sat.  But it is, as it is, something undefinable
by either term.

Verse 50:- This peculiar nature of Maya is corroborated by
the Vedic text* which purports there was neither non existence,
nor existence then, (that is before creation), but there was
darkness, (Maya), is due to its association with existence, not
by virtue of itself, in as much as, existence is denied to it.

(Nasadiya Sukta in Rig Veda, 10.129.1 or;
 Satapatha  Brahmana;
 Taitriya Upanishad; )

* The Vedic text alluded here is the famous: " Tama asit
tamasa gudhamagre", that is before creation there was
darkness Brahman, covered by darkenss (Maya).  The first
'tamas' is not the same as the second 'tamas', that is
'tamasa', for a thing cannot be covered by itself. As before
creation, there was nothing else except Brahman and its
power Maya, but the opponents would interpret it as above.
And that is why, "Tamaso ma jyotir gamaya" means "from
darkness of Brahman-Maya, lead us to "Brahman, the effulgent."

Verse 51:-  Hence like nothingness, Maya also cannot be a
distinct entity in Its own right.  In the world too, an able
man and his ability to do great feats, are not considered
two but one.

to be contd.....

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (59)
« on: August 22, 2008, 03:20:39 PM »
The Chapter II continues....

Verse 35:-  If you affirm that name and form attributed to an
existing thing are both cretions of Maya, an illusory principle,
then tell us what is the substratum upon which Maya creates
names and forms.  For illusion also, without a substratum,
is never seen.

Verse 37:-  We all use the expressions:  'What has to be done
has been done', 'speech is spoken', 'a burden is borne'.  The
Vedic text 'Existence was' is meant only for those whose minds
are accustomed to such expressions. 

Verse 39:-  Objections are raised and answers are given only
from the point of duality.  From the standpoint of pure non
duality, neither questions nor answers are possible.

Verse 40:-  What remains after dissolution is an unmoving and
ungraspable, unnamed and un-namable, unmanifest, indefinite
something, beyond light and darkness and all pervadiing.

(Yoga Vasishta)

Verse 44:-  Brahman the pure existence without any reference
to the world, can be experienced without an iota of doubt, when
ann mentations cease.  And what we experience is not nothing,
for we are not conscious of the perception of nothing.

Verse 46:- When the mind is void of all mentations, we experience
the Witness or obscuring Cosciousness, in its purity as calm and
unagitated.  Similarly, prior to the functioning of Maya, the
existence, Sat, remained in its purity as quiescence, calm and

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.     

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (58)
« on: August 22, 2008, 03:08:43 PM »
The Chapter II continues...

Verse 27:-  As man who has fallen into the sea, is bewildered
and loses the power of exercising his senses, so they too become
afraid and nervous when they hear of the Reality as only
without parts!

Verse 28:- The teacher Gaudapada speaks of the great fear
of some yogins who are devoted to Brahman with form,
regarding the objectless superconscious state.

(Maandukya Upanishad, Gaudapada Karika 3.39)

Verse 29:- This identification with the ungrasped and ungraspable
Reality is difficult to achieve.  But, they are indeed, seeing the fear in
the fearless. 

(Gaudapada's Asparsa Yoga, in Karika, the touch of the untouch.)

Verse 30:- The highly respected Bhagavatpada Sankara, also refers
to the Madhyamikas, experts in dry rationcination, contradicting
the Vedic views, as confused regarding the self-existent Brahman,
who is beyond thought.

Verse 31:-  These Buddhists merged in darkness and seeing through
the one of inference and neglecting the authority of the Vedas, reached
only 'nothingness'.

Verse 33:- The sun does not have the attributes of darkness. Nor
is it itself of the nature of darkness.  As existence and nonexistence
are similarly contradictory.  You cannot predicate something about
nothing, so how do you say 'nothing existed'?

Verse 34:-(Buddhists):- According to your Vedanta, the names
and forms of Space and other elements are conjured up by Maya,
in or on Sat, the existence or reality.  Similarly, according to us,
they, names and forms, are illusively produced by Maya in or on
Non existence, Asat. (Reply):  Then, may you live long, that is,
you have fallen into a logical trap.  Akasa etc., cannot exist
without the substratum of Brahman and if 'nothing' or Sunya
is also like that, then it also has a real substratum and if so,
you are accepting the Vedantin's position.

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.         

Dear Raju,  Bhagavan during death experience, used the
thought :  Who am I?.  After this enquiry, He realised
the Self-consciousness.   When some one asked Bhagavan
"How much time did you take?", Bhagavan replied: "Where
is the question of time?" meaning that the realization was
instantaneous, because He was an avatara, with no carry bag
of 'vasanas'.  For others, it may take any amount of time.  Certain
students of Bosho school of Zen, work out just one 'koan' for a
few hours and had realization!  Others took years.  In Chandogya
Upanishad, you get stories, that someone took three instalments
of 32 years each, totally 96 years, to merge in the Self.  The Guru
had asked him to go and graze the cows on three occasions of 32
years each.  In Katha Upanishad, Nachiketas just took three days
in Yama's abode to get self realization.

Arunachala Siva.   

General Discussion / Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
« on: August 22, 2008, 02:28:06 PM »
Dear Raju and srkudai,  all this drama occurs because of chit-jada
granthi, the self-body complex.  When we say, mano-nasa, it is
not 'killing the mind', because 'mind' has not got any 'physical
entity' for killing.  It is 'leaving' the mind, or resolving the mind,
once for all and staying in the Self.  Whenever we think of
something, while watching a TV story or a cinema,  and in the process, miss a scene in TV or cinema, we say that 'mind has gone somewhere.
In other words, mind has left the scene.  Again, Raju, it is only
with the mind, the mind can be 'killed ' or left for good.
As Bhagavan says, it is like a stick that is used to stir the funeral
pyre, and after the work is over, the stick is also burnt on the pyre.
(Who am I?).

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (57)
« on: August 22, 2008, 02:13:04 PM »
The Chapter II continues....

Verse 19:- "Before all this was created there was Being alone,
one only, without a second.  So, there was neither name nor
form," said Uttalaka Aruni.  (Chandogya Up. 6.2 and 6.3.2-3)

Verse 20:-  Differences are of three kinds; The difference of
a tree from its leaves, flowers, fruits etc., is the difference
within an object.  The difference of one tree from another tree
is the difference between objects of the same class.  The differences
of a tree from a stone is the difference between objects of
different classes. 

Verse 22:-  One cannot doubt that Brahman, the One and only
reality, has no parts, for Its parts cannot be conceived of.  Names
and forms cannot be Its parts, for before creation, they did not arise.

Verse 23:-  As creation means the appearance of names and
forms, they cannot be before creation.  Therefore, like the
Space, Brahman is partless and also there is no difference within It.

Verse 24:-  The difference between objects of the same class
can have no reference to Sat, for noting else exists.  One object
differs from another on account of its name and form, whereas
Brahman is absolutely without name and form.

Verse 25:-  And about non existence; we cannot say that it exists.
So, it cannot serve a 'pratiyogin', that is, total characteristic
that is lacking in another thing.  If so, how can there be 'vijatiya'
difference, that is one's own internal contradiction, like a square-
circle.  Hence Atman and Brahman cannot have vijatiya difference.

Verse 26:- So, it is established that Sat is one only without a second.
But thre are still some who get confused by texts that 'Asat'
- nothing, existed before creation.

('Asat' or 'nothing' or 'sunya' cannot exist before creation, because
there was no time as before creation, because Brahman, is ever
present beyond time and present.  This 'sunya vadha' is from
Madhyamika school of Buddhism.)

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.         

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (56)
« on: August 22, 2008, 01:22:50 PM »
The Chapter II, is called Mahabhootha Viveka, or the Differentiation
of Five Elements.  I am giving only select verses.

Verse 1:-  Brhaman according to Sruti, the non dual reality,
can be known by the process of differntiation from the five
elements.  So the process is now being discussed in detail.

Verse 7:- The five senses successively functioning through the
external apparatus, the gross organs, the eyes, the ears etc.,
are subtle.  Their presence is to be inferred from their functions.
The often move outwards.

Verse 12:-  The mind, the ruler of the ten organs of sense and
action, is within the lotus of the Heart.  As it depends on the organs
of sense and action, for the functions in relation to the external
objects, it is called an internal organ, the anthakarana.

Verse 13:- The mind enquires into the merits and defects of
the objects which are perceived by the senses.  Sattva, rajas
and tamas are its three constituents for through them the mind
undergoes various modficiations.

Verse 14:- Non attachment, forgiveness, generosity etc., are
producs of sattva.  Anger, desires, avarice, effort etc.,  are
produced by rajas.

Verse 15:-  Lethargy, confusion, drowsiness etc., are the products
of tamas.  When sattva functions in the mind, merit is acquired.
When rajas functions demerit is acquired.

Verse 16:-  When tamas functions, neither merit nor demerit
is produced. But life is wasted for nothing.  Of the modfications
of the mind, that of I-Consciousness is the agent.  In the practical
world also, we do the same.

Verse 17:-  Is is quite evident  that the objects in which sound,
touch etc., are clearly discernible are the products of five elements.
With the help of scriptural texts and reasoning it can be conceived
that even for the senses and the mind, the subtle elements
are the basis.

Verse 18:-  Whatever of this world, is perceived, by the senses,
the organs of action, the mind, reasoning and the scriptural texts,
is referred to as 'this', 'idam' in the Sruti text, as follows.
(Idam, this, applied even to the past things is not wrong since
they are felt to be in the present by God or a sage, like Uttalaka
Aruni)  (Refer also Srimad Bhagavad Gita VII. 26).

to be contd...   

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (55)
« on: August 22, 2008, 12:49:49 PM »
The I chapter continues....

Verse 62:-  Then, the great dictum, freed from the obstacles
of doubts and ambiguity, gives rise to a direct realization of the
Truth, as a fruit in one's palm, Truth, which earlier comprehended

Verse 63:-  The knowledge of Brahman obtained indirectly
from the Guru, teaching, the meaning of the great dictum,
burns up like fire all sins, committed upto that attainment
of knowledge.

Verse 64:-  The direct realization of the knowledge of the
Self obtained from the Guru's teaching of the great dictum,
is like the scorching sun, that dispels the very darkness
of Avidya, the root of all transmigratory existence.

Verse 65:-  Thus a man distinguishes the Self from the five
sheaths, concentrates the mind on It according to the
scriptural injunctions, becomes free from the bonds of
repeated births and deaths and immeidately attains the
Supreme Bliss.


Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (54)
« on: August 22, 2008, 12:43:54 PM »
The Chapter I continues....

Verse 57:-  The mind continues to be fixed in Paramatman
in the state of samadhi as a result of the effect of will, made
prior to its achievement and helped by the merits of previous
births and the strong impressions created through constant
efforts at getting into samadhi.

Verse 58:-  The same idea Sri Krishna, pointed out to Arjuna
in various ways, e.g. when he compares the steady mind to the
flame of a map in in breezless spot.  (Srimad Bhagavad Gita 6.19).

Verse 59:-  \as a result of this nirvikalpa samadhi, millions of
results of actions accumulated in this beginningless world over
past and present births, are destroyed and pure "dharana".
a state helpful to the realization of Truth, grows.

Verse 60:-  The experts in Yoga, call this as a rain cloud of dharmas,
because it pours forth countless showers of the bliss of dharma.

(That is, a Brhamjnani's state, as that of Bhagavan's state,
is a rain cloud, and it showers bliss of dharma on the devotees
and seekers.)

Verse 61:-  The entire network of desires is fully destroyed
and the accumulated  actions known as merits and demerits
are fully routed out by this samadhi.

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (53)
« on: August 22, 2008, 12:32:08 PM »
The Chapter I continues....

Verse 51:-  The same logical fallacies may be shown in any
object having substance, species, quality, action or relationship.
So accept all these attributes as existing by the nature of things.

Verse 52:- The Self is untouched by doubts about the presence
or absence of associates, cannotations and other adventitious
relationships because they are superimposed on it phenomenally.

Verse 53:-  The finding out of the true significance of the
identity of the individual self and the Supreme, with the aid
of great sayings like Thou Art That, is what is known as
'sravana' - hearing. And to arrive at the possibility of its
validity through logical reasoning is called, memorizing and
thinking and finding logical support. 

Verse 54:-  And, when by sravana and manana, the mind
develops a fiirm and undoubted conviction, and dwells constantly
on the thus ascertained Self alone, it is called unbroken
meditation, nidhidhyasana. 

Verse 56:- When the mind gradually leaves off the ideas of
the meditation and the act of meditating and is merged on the
sole object of meditation, viz., the Self, and is steady like a
flame of a lamp in a breezless place, it is called Samadhi,
or superconscious state.

Verse 57:- Though in samadhi, there is not subjective cognition,
of the mental function, having the Self as its object, its
continued existence in that state is inferred from the recollection
after coming out of samadhi.

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (52)
« on: August 22, 2008, 12:19:33 PM »
The Chapter I continues....

Verse 44:- Brahman becomes the material and efficient
cause of the world when associated with those aspects of
Maya, in which there is a predomination of tamas and sattva
respectively.  This Brahman is referred to as "That" in the
text, Thou Art That.

Verse 45:- When the Supreme Brahman, superimposes on
Itself, Avidya, that is, sattva mixed with rajas and tamas,
creating desires and activities in It, then it is referred to as
"Thou" in the text, Thou Art That.

Verse 46:- When the three mutually contradictory aspects
of Maya are rejected, the remains the one indivisible Brahman
whose nature is Existence-Knowledge and Bliss.  This is pointed
out in the great saying:  Thou Art That.

Verse 47:-  In the sentence 'This is that Devadatta', this and
that refer to different time, place and circumstances.  When
the particular connections of this and that are rejected, Devadatta
remains as their common basis.

(Please refer my description of Jahat-ajahat lakshana, in
Viveka Choodamani.)

Verse 48:- Similarly, when the adjuncts, Maya and Avidya,
the conflicting cannotations in the proposition Thou Art That,
of Brahman and Jiva are negated, there remains the indivisible
Supreme Brahman, whose nature is existence, knowledge and

Verse 49:- (Objection): If the denoted object of Thou Art
That, that is, Brahman, is with attributes, then it becomes
unreal.  Secondly, an object without attributes is neither seen
nor is possible to conceive. 

Verse 50:-  (Reply):  Does the objection you have raised
relate to Brahman without attributes or with attributes?
In the first, you are caught in your own trap.  If the second,
it involves logical fallacies of infinite regress, resting on
oneself etc.,

(If you say, Brahman with attributes, you are caugt in your
own trap, because, then, you have to accept the Brahman
without attributes.  If this is Brahman without attributes, if
you say, 'it is not seen or conceived,' then, you have to accept
Brahman with attributes, hence this logic is infinite regress,
that is infinite looping like we see sometimes in computer, where
the same set of frames are shown endlessly repeating.  It is
like asking, which came first, the egg or the hen?)

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (51)
« on: August 22, 2008, 11:59:41 AM »
The Chapter I continues...

Verse 38:- The physical body present in one's consciousnes,
is absent in the dreaming state, but the witnessing element,
Pure Consciousness, persists in both the waking and dreaming
states.   This is the invariable presence, Anvaya, of the Self.
Though the Self is perceived, the physical body is not;
so the latter is not a variable factor.

Verse 39:- Similarly, in the state of deep sleep, the subtle
body is not perceived, but the Self invariably witnesses
that state.  While the Self persists, in all states, the subtle
body is not perceived in deep sleep and so it is called a
variable factor.

Verse 40:-  By discrimination of the subtle body and recognition
of its variable, transient character, the sheaths are understood
to be different from the Self, for the sheaths are conditions of the
three gunas, - characteristics, - and differ from each other.

Verse 41:- Avidya, manifested as the causal body or blissful
sheath, is negated in the state of deep meditation, in which
neither subject nor object is experienced, but the Self persists
in that state.  So it is the invariable factor.  But the causal body
is a variable factor, for though the Self persists, it does not.

Verse 42:- As the slender, internal pith of a munja gross
can be detached from its coarse external covering, so the
Self can be distinugished through reasoning from the
three bodie, or the five sheaths.  Then the Self is recognized
as the Supreme Consciousness.

Verse 43:-  In this way, the identity of Brahman and Jiva
is demonstrated through reaosoning.  This identity is taught
in the sacred texts in sentences such as "Thou Art That."
Their method of explaining the Truth is through the elimination
of incongruous attributes.

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.     

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (50)
« on: August 22, 2008, 11:43:18 AM »
The Chapter I continues...

Verse 26:-  To provide the Jivas, with objects of enjoyment
and make the bodies fit for such enjoyment, the all powerful
Isvara has made each of the subtle elements partake of the
nature of the others.

Verse 29:-  They are only external things and are devoid
of the knowledge of their true inner nature. They perform
actions for enjoyment and again they enjoy for performing

Verse 30:- They go from birth to birth, as worms that have
slipped into a river are swept from one whirlpool to another
and never attain peace.

Verse 31:- When the good deeds performed by them in the
past births bear fruit, the worms enjoy being lifted from the
river by a compassionate person and placed under the shade
of a tree on the bank.

Verse 32:-  Similarly, the Jivas, finding themselves in  the
whirlpool of worldly duties, receive the appropriate initiation
from a teacher who himself has realized Brahman, and
differentiating the Self from its five sheaths, attain the Supreme
Bliss of release.

Verse 33:-  The five sheaths of the Self are those of the food,
the vital air, the mind, the intellect and bliss.  Enveloped in them,
it forgets its real nature and becomes subject to transmigration.

Verse 37:- By differentiating the Self, from the five sheaths
throught the method of discrimination, between the variable and
the invariable, one who draws out one's own Self, from the five
sheaths and attain Supreme Brahman.

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (49)
« on: August 22, 2008, 11:31:43 AM »
The Chapter I continues.....

Verse 15:-  Prakrti (that is, the primordial substance) is that
in which, there is the reflection of Brahman, that is Pure
Consciousness and Bliss and is composed of Sattva, Rajas,
and Tamas (in a state of homoeneity).  It is of two kinds.

Verse 16:- When the element of sattva is pure, Prakrti is
known as Maya.  When impure (being mixed up with rajas
and tamas), it is called Avidya.  Brahman, reflected in Maya,
is known as omniscient Isvara, who controls Maya.

Verse 17:- But the other (that is Jiva, which is Brahman
reflected in Avidya) is subjected to Avidya, impure Sattva.
This Jiva is of different grades due to degrees of admixture
of rajas and tamas.  The Avidya, the nescience, is the causal
body.  When the Jiva identifies himself with this causal body,
he is called Prajna.

Verse 18:- At the command of Isvara and for the experience
of Prajna, the five subtle elements, ether, air, fire, water
and earth, arose from the part of Prakrti in which tamas

Verse 19:- From the sattva part of the five subtle elements
of Prakrti arose in turn the five subtle sensory organs of hearing,
touch, sight, taste, and smell.

Verse 20:- From a combination of them all, that is sattva
portion of the five subtle elements, arose the organ of inner
conception called antakharana.  Due to difference of function,
it is divided into two.  Manas (mind) is that aspect whose function
is doubting and buddhi (intellect) is sthat whose functions are
discrimination and determination. 

Verse 21:- From the rajas portion of the five elements, arose
in turn the organs of action known as the organ of speech,
the hands, the feet, the organs of excretion and procreation.

Verse 22:- From a combination of them of them all, arose
the vital air, prana.  Again, due to difference of functions
it is divided into five.  They are prana, apana, samana, utana
and vyana.

Verse 23:-  The five sensory organs, the five organs of action,
the five vital airs, mind and intellect, all the seventeen together
form the subtle body, which is called Sukshma or linga sarira.

Verse 24:-  By identifying himself with the subtle boyd and
thinking it to be his own, Prajna becomes known as Taijasa,
and Isvara as Hiranyagarbha.  Their difference is sthe one
betwen the individual and collective, (that is, one is identified
with a single subtle body and the otehr with totality of subtle

Verse 25:- Isvara, as Hiranyagarbha, is called 'totality' because
of his sense of idenification with all the subtle bodes of the
universe.  The other, the Taijasa, is called the 'individual'
because it lacks this knowledge and is conscious only of his
self, being identified with his own subtle body only.     

to be contd...

Arunachala Siva.