Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - Subramanian.R

The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Re: Prarabdha
« on: August 18, 2008, 07:30:00 PM »
Dear srkudai and non duel, free will and prarabdha are no doubt
chances.  Bhagavan said that both free will and prarabdha has
no meaning for a Jnani.  Chance is the correct word.  But the
Chance will be in our favour or it will not affect us, if we get
Guru's abundant Grace.

Arunachala Siva.

Dear srkudai and non duel, any activity, even that of trying
to still the mind is a bondage.  Bhagavan always said:  BE STILL,
Summa Iru.  He did not say, Try to be still.  The difference is
like, I am going to Tiruvannamalai and I am Tiruvannamalai!

Bhagavan also said, even I shall merge with Brahman is an
activty.  I am Brahman is the correct process.

Arunachala Siva.

The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Re: Prarabdha
« on: August 18, 2008, 07:18:55 PM »
Dear non duel and srkudai,  Interesting observations.  I shall answer
non duel first.  Prarabdha is that portion of good and bad things, that
one has to experience during this life itslef.  Sanchaya, is the total
reservoir of good and bad things.  Prarabdha is a small quota given
for this life.  Agami is the good and bad things that we do in this birth,
so that it may fetch good and bad results next birth.  Every scripture
says that through Jnana, one can cancel Sanchaya.  Agami will not
arise, because you are doing good things in this life.  (Good effects
will reach God and not produce result.).  Hence Prarabdha is the
unsolved mystery!  Scriptures say that Prarabdha is like an arrow,
already shot out.  It will not see whether the victim is a cow or a
man!   But Sankara and Bhagavan Sri Ramana, say that the Prarabdha
will also not be there, because the Jnani does not feel the good and bad,
and there is no effect on him, because he has no mind.  Viveka Choodamani and Ulladu Narpadu say the identical thing. Bhagavan says
if a King has got three wives (like Dasarata in Ramayana), and if the
King dies, all the three wives become widows, and not merely two
of them.  This example also comes in Viveka Choodamani.  The
Saiva Siddhantis like Manikkavachagar, says that God with his
abundant grace, will "thin" the effect of Prarabdha for a Jnani.
Like the arrow, which is aimed at your chest, will hit your headgear
and pass away!  I take this position.  Bhagavan said during his
four surgeries in 1949-50, that the pain was like an ant-bite, and
he was mildly groaning during sleep!  Dr Guruswami Mudaliar
said, that the pain will be as excruciating as if a lorry is running
over your hand!!!

Arunachala Siva.       

Dear DRPVSSN Raju,  You are correct.  Thought process vary
with moon-digit.  Scriptures say that the moon is the governing
god for the mind, which produces thought.  Mad people get
maximum disturbance on the full moon day and vice versa.  By
constant practice, we can tell the moon not to disturb us. In
the same way the Power of the Presence of Bhagavan quitens us.
It is for us to seek Bhagavan's grace and become the correct
vessel for the ever flowing grace of Bhagavan.

Arunachala Siva.

General Discussion / Re: Anyone have info about Michael Langford?
« on: August 18, 2008, 05:57:33 PM »
Dear non duel, Thank you.  Bhagavan stressed different paths for
the seekers, depending upon his earlier pursuits.  He advocated
action, devotion, breath control and atma vichara to various people,
with a caveat that everyone should come to atma vichara at the end.
Again, in action, He stressed desireless action, in devotion, devotion
to the Self within, in breath control, concentrating on the Brahman
within and in atma vichara, the Heart.  In this connection, I like
Muruganar, Sri Sadhu Om and David Godman, for giving the direct
teachings of Bhagavan and the auxillary steps, side by side.

Sri Sadhu Om gives a beautiful example.  If one wants to go
to Vellore, on the east of T malai, and he does not know cycling.
He should practise cycling on the eastern side, so that he would
have covered some distance in reaching Vellore.  If he tries to
learn cycling on the west of T malai, then after learning cycling,
he has come back to T malai and then proceed west to reach

Bhagavan told Kavyakanata, who was the master in devotion and
action and breath control, to find out wherefrom the mantra japa
rises and then asked him to quell it there.  Whereas He told Mother
Azhagamma only to abhor the desires for good food, poppad etc.,
because she had already mastered devotion and only needed to
leave the unwanted actions to get tasty greens and poppad!

Arunachala Siva.

My dear non duel,  In my case, thoughts gush forth or quieten without
any specific pattern, be it any time of the day or any day. 
I believe these are from deep rooted vasanas (innate, inherent
tendencies).  Today I read in Indian newspapers, scientists are
working on a thought reading machine, which can also map the brain
waves during thoughts, which is more sophisticated than a lie detector.
But there are certain people, who do not reveal anything even during
a Nacro analaysis!

Arunachala Siva.

Dear DRPVSSN Raju, That is why Jesus said that children
will find it easier to enter into the Kingdom of God, than the elders.
The children are guileless, their experience of the world is much
than elders.  They speak through their hearts and not through their
mind and brain.

Arunachala Siva.


General topics / Re: Living Realised Person
« on: August 18, 2008, 05:21:31 PM »
Dear srkudai,  yes, you are correct.  Certain characteristics of
Jnanis are inscrutable.  But they are like a burnt rope, it is
neither harmful to them nor to others.  Even Sri Ramakrishna used
to have "hookah".  Saint Tirunavukkarasar says, " Even if
some one is a dog eater, if he prays to Siva, I am his servant."
Hunter Kannappa (of Kalahasti), was a meat eater.

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (8)
« on: August 18, 2008, 05:13:35 PM »
The chapter VII continues...

Verse 152:-  Thee are three kinds of fructifying karma.   1) Producing
enjoyment with desire; 2) in the absence of desire, 3) through the
desire of another.

Verse 153:- The sick attached to harmful food, the thieves, and
those who have illicit relationships with the wives of a king,
know well the consequences likely follow their actions, but
in spite of this, they are driven to do them by their fructifying

Verse 156:- If it were possible to avert the consequences of
fructifying karma, Nala (the king who lost his kingdom due
to gambling), Rama (who lost his wife because of the impossibility
of a golden deer) and Yudishtra (the Mahabharata king,
who lost his kingdom, due to gambling), would not not suffered
the miseries they were subjected to.  These were due to karma
for producing enjoyment with desire.

Verse 157:-  Listen to the questions and answers between
Arjuna and Krishna from which we know that a man has to
experience his fructifying karma though he may have no desire
to experience it.  (Arjuna went to war, even though he had no
desire, and even though he won the war, he lost all his sons.)

Verse 162:-  When a man is neither willing nor unwilling to do
a thing, but does it for the feeling of others and exprience pleasure
and pain, it is fructifying karma through the desire of others.  (Again
Rama, who went to forest to fulfill the desire of his step mother, and
Arjuna, who went to war to fulfill the desire of his wife, Draupadi.)

Verse 176:- Knowledge and fructifying karma are not opposed
to one another since they refer to different objects.  The sight
of a magical performance gives amusement to a specatator,
even though he has knowledge of its unreality. 

Arunachala Siva.


Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (7)
« on: August 18, 2008, 04:49:13 PM »
The Chapter VII continues...

Verse 85:-  The difference between Jiva and Brahman is due
to the presence or absence of the conditioning medium of
Antakharana, (the mind-intellect complex).  Otherwise, they
are identical.  There is no other difference.

Verse 87:-  The gurus affirm that the Upanishads speak of
Brahman, both by negating what is not Brahman (Not this, not this)
and by affirming the positive characteristics (That).

Verse 91:- In the perception of a jar, the intellect and the
Chidabhasa (the individual soul) are both concerned.  There,
the ignorance is negated by the intellect and the pot is revealed
by the individual soul.

Verse 93:- To perceive a jar, two factors are necessary, the eye
and the lamp.  But to perceive the lamp, only the eye is necessary.

Verse 94:-  When the intellect functions, it does only to the presence
of Chidabhasa, but in the cognition of Brahman, Chidabhasa is
merged with Brahman.  In the external perception of a jar,
Chidabhasa reveals the pot by its light and yet remains distinct
from it.

Verse  134:-  Two travellers on a journey may be equally fatigued,
but the one who knows that his destination is not far off, goes on
quicker with patience, whereas the ignorant one feels discouraged
and stays on longer on his way.

Verse 137:-  When the visitor knows that the magician's hare
and the tortoise as unreal, he desires nothing and laughs at its
deceptive nature.

Verse 142:-  Even when a man afflicted with great hunger,
does not wish to eat poison, much less one who is already
satisified with sweetmeats in his hand.

Verse 147:-  The desires are never quelled by enjoyment but
increase more like the flame of a fire fed on the oil.

Verse 150:-  A king who has been freed from prison, is
content with sovereignity over a village, where when he
had negither been imprisones nor conquered, he did not
attach much value even to a kingdom.

Arunachala Siva.     

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (6)
« on: August 18, 2008, 04:23:12 PM »
The Chapter VII, continues...

Here, I shall explain the jahat-ajahat lakshnana or the characteristics
of parital elimination.  I shall explain certain other 'lakshanas, as
given by Viveka Chodamani and other scriptures.

The Jahat-ajahat lakshana or partial elimination, is given by the
example,  "This is that Devadatta"  - meaning that this is Devadatta,
now seen in Tiruvannamalai, who was seen sometime in the past
in Madurai.  Here, we are interested in Devadatta, the person,
who remains the same.  Tiruvannamalai and Madurai, the space
is not important.  Similarly, the past and now the now, the time
is also not important.  The Jiva and Brahman are the same immutable
Consciousness.  This is also called Bhagatyaga lakshana.  That is,
sacrificing the part.

The Jahat lakshana, full elimination, is that in which the primary
or original sense of a word is eliminated.  For example, "The
street on the Thames."  Here, the street is not inside the Thames
river, but only on a side of it.  Here the river Thames is fully
eliminated as a river, but only its side is taken into account.

The Ajahat lakshana, is the primary or original sense, is not
at all eliminated.  For example, "The Red is running".  Here the
red is not eliminated at all, but only a supplmentary  implication.
having the attributes of the original (red) is taken, that is,
"The Red horse is running."

The jahat-ajahat lakshana, has already been explained in the
Shakespeare example and also in this Devadatta example.

Madhvacharya, the proponent of Dualist philosophy never
agreed to any of these three, in commenting on You are That.
He interpreted it through Samsargartha lakshnana, that is logic of
only a particular relation.  While You is the Jiva and That
is Brahman, Jiva can never merge with Brahman and only
a particular relationship of Servant-Master can be there.
He gave the example,  "Bring the cow",  here the cow is related
to the caller who says, 'Bring', that is the Master, only by way
of ownership.  The cow and the master are not the same!!!

Arunachala Siva. 

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (5)
« on: August 18, 2008, 03:26:28 PM »
Chapter VII continues...

Verse 71:-  In, "You are That", 'You' denotes the consciousness,
which is limited or circumscribed by the adjunct the inner organ
and which is the object of the word "I".

Verse 72:-  The Absolute Consciousness, conditioned by
the primeval ignorance, Maya, which is the cause of the universe,
is all knowing etc.,  and can be known indirectly, and whose
nature is Truth, Knowledge and Infinity, is indicated by the
word, "That".

Verse 74:-  In sentences like, You are That, only the logical rule
of partial elimination ** is to be applied, as in the terms of "That
is this, not others"

(that is, in "This is that Shakespeare," we negate the attributes
of time and place, both present and past and take into account
only the person himself.  Similarly, in the text,  "You are That",
we negate the conflicting attributes such as omniscience, and
the limited knowledge, which characterize Iswara and Jiva,
respectively, and taker into account only the immutable consciousness.)

This is That Shakespeare.  This Shakespeare, who is now seen here
in Tiruvannamalai is that same Shakespeare, who was seen last year,
in Paris. Here, the time, "now seen", the present, "seen last year"
the past are both eliminated, taking only the person, Shakespeare.
Again, the space, Tiruvannamalai and Paris are eliminated, since
we are interested only in the person.  This is what to be used,
in You are That; that is You, the jiva and That, the Brahman are taken
only with the immutable consciousness element, and not with eliminating
attributes of omniscience and limited knowledge of Brahman
and Jiva.   This is called Jahat-ajhat lakshana, the logical rule of
partial elimination.

**  I shall explain the logical rule of partial elimination, with
the standard examples given in Viveka Choodamani, separately.


Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (4)
« on: August 18, 2008, 02:57:59 PM »
The Chapter VII continues...

Verse 51:- Indirect knowledge, which is the cognition, "Brahman
Exists" and not the cognition, "I am Brahman" is not erraneous.
Because, in the state of direct knowledge, this indirect knowledge
is not contradicted, but only confirmed.

Verse 52:- If it could be proved that Brahman does not exist,
this indirect knowledge would be subject to refutation, but it
is well known that there is no valid evidence to refute the fact
that Brahman exists.

Verse 53:- The indirect knowledge of Brahman cannot be called
false, simply because it does not give a definitive idea of Brahman.
On that basis, then, the existence of heaven should also be false!

Verse 54:-  Indirect knowledge of Brahman, that is an object of
direct knowledge, is not necessarily false. For it does not aver
that Brahman is an object of indirect knowledge only.  Why do
we call then it indirect knowledge?  For, it does not say, "This
is Brahman",  which is direct knowledge.

Verse 56:-  Indirect knowledge removes our doubt that Brahman
may not exist.  Direct knowledge rebuts our poser that It is not
manifest or experienced.

Verse 57:-  The statement:  "The tenth man exists, is not lost"
is indirect knowledge and is not false.  Simlarly, the indirect
knowledge, "Brahman exists" is not false.  In both cases,
the obscuring of the truth due to ignorance is the cause.

Verse 58:-  By a thorough analysis of "Self is Brahman", the direct
knowledge, "I am Brahman" is acheived, just as the man
after having been told that he is the tenth, comes to reaize it
through reflection.

Verse 61:-  The Vedic texts such as, "Before the creation,
Brahman alone existed", gives indirect knowledge of Brahman.
But the text, " You are That" gives direct knowledge.

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (3)
« on: August 18, 2008, 02:39:13 PM »
The Chapter VII continues:

Verse 28:-  Seven stages can be distinguished in respect of
the Self.  ignorance, obscuration, superimposition, indirect
knowledge, direct knowledge, cessation of grief and the rise
of perfect satisfaction.

Verse 29:-  Chidabhasa (the image or individual soul) with
his mind devoted to worldly existence does not know that
there is self evident Kutastha (the Brahman).  This is

Verse 30:-  Kutastha, is not manifest, there is no Kutastha --
these are the ideas that characterize the obscuring stage,
caused by ignorance. The Chidabhasa further says, "I am
the doer and enjoyer" and expriences pains and pleasures,
and this is superimposition.

Verse 31:-  From the teacher, he comes to know of the
existence of Kutastha, indirectly.  This is indirect knowledge.
Then, by means of viveka, discrimination, he directly realizes
- " I am Kutastha".  This is direct knowledge.

Verse 32:-   Now he is free from the erroneous idea that he is
a doer and so enjoyer of the fruit of his actions.  With this
conviction his grief comes to an end.  He feels that he has
accomplished all that was to be accomplished and experiences
perfect satisfaction.  This is cessation of grief.

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (2)
« on: August 18, 2008, 02:25:35 PM »
The Chapter VII of Panchadasi, is called Tripti Deepa or the Lamp of
Perfect Satisfaction.

Verse 6:-  The jiva with Kutastha (the Brahman), as his substratum
becomes an agent and seeks liberation or pleasures of heaven
and earth. Chidabhasa (the image), the reflection of Pure Consciousness,
alone cannot be so, for superimposition is not possible without a

Verse 8:-  When the jiva gives up his attachment to his illusory
portion, the nature of the substratum becomes predominant, and
he realizes that he is association-less and of the nature of Pure

Verse 15:-  There is no harm for Chidabhasa has no real existence
independent of Kutastha, the Brahman.  An image in a mirror is
not distinct from the object of which it is a reflection. When the
adventitious factors are negated, only Kutastha, the Brahman, remains.

Verse 17:- The idea of "I am Brahman" leads to cessation of
pleasure and pain of the world.  There is a common saying, that
a sacrifice offered to a deity must be appropriate to the deity.  Here,
cessation of pleasure and pain is the sacrifice for the Brahman.

Verse 22:-  The Self is ever there and is cognized.  We speak of Its
being known, directly or indirectly, being known or unknown,  as in the
illustration of the tenth man, who was missing or who was later
found out.

Verse 24:-  Being himself the tenth, he does not find him. 'The
tenth man is not visible, he is absent,' so he says.  Intelligent
people say that this is due to his presence being obscured by
ignorance or Maya.

Verse 25:- He is grieved and cries, because he believes the tenth
to have drowned in the river.  The act of weeping, a result of
false superimposition, is due to illusion or Maya.

Verse 26:-  When told by a competent person that the tenth man
is not dead, he believes by indirect knowledge that he is alive,
just as one believes in the existence of heaven or Brahman, on
the authority of Scriptures.

Verse 27:-  When each man is told:  "You are the tenth" and he
counts himself along with the others, he stops griieving and weeping,
owing to the direct knowledge of the tenth, that is himself.


Arunachala Siva.