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Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (5)
« on: August 18, 2008, 03:26:28 PM »
Chapter VII continues...

Verse 71:-  In, "You are That", 'You' denotes the consciousness,
which is limited or circumscribed by the adjunct the inner organ
and which is the object of the word "I".

Verse 72:-  The Absolute Consciousness, conditioned by
the primeval ignorance, Maya, which is the cause of the universe,
is all knowing etc.,  and can be known indirectly, and whose
nature is Truth, Knowledge and Infinity, is indicated by the
word, "That".

Verse 74:-  In sentences like, You are That, only the logical rule
of partial elimination ** is to be applied, as in the terms of "That
is this, not others"

(that is, in "This is that Shakespeare," we negate the attributes
of time and place, both present and past and take into account
only the person himself.  Similarly, in the text,  "You are That",
we negate the conflicting attributes such as omniscience, and
the limited knowledge, which characterize Iswara and Jiva,
respectively, and taker into account only the immutable consciousness.)

This is That Shakespeare.  This Shakespeare, who is now seen here
in Tiruvannamalai is that same Shakespeare, who was seen last year,
in Paris. Here, the time, "now seen", the present, "seen last year"
the past are both eliminated, taking only the person, Shakespeare.
Again, the space, Tiruvannamalai and Paris are eliminated, since
we are interested only in the person.  This is what to be used,
in You are That; that is You, the jiva and That, the Brahman are taken
only with the immutable consciousness element, and not with eliminating
attributes of omniscience and limited knowledge of Brahman
and Jiva.   This is called Jahat-ajhat lakshana, the logical rule of
partial elimination.

**  I shall explain the logical rule of partial elimination, with
the standard examples given in Viveka Choodamani, separately.


Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (4)
« on: August 18, 2008, 02:57:59 PM »
The Chapter VII continues...

Verse 51:- Indirect knowledge, which is the cognition, "Brahman
Exists" and not the cognition, "I am Brahman" is not erraneous.
Because, in the state of direct knowledge, this indirect knowledge
is not contradicted, but only confirmed.

Verse 52:- If it could be proved that Brahman does not exist,
this indirect knowledge would be subject to refutation, but it
is well known that there is no valid evidence to refute the fact
that Brahman exists.

Verse 53:- The indirect knowledge of Brahman cannot be called
false, simply because it does not give a definitive idea of Brahman.
On that basis, then, the existence of heaven should also be false!

Verse 54:-  Indirect knowledge of Brahman, that is an object of
direct knowledge, is not necessarily false. For it does not aver
that Brahman is an object of indirect knowledge only.  Why do
we call then it indirect knowledge?  For, it does not say, "This
is Brahman",  which is direct knowledge.

Verse 56:-  Indirect knowledge removes our doubt that Brahman
may not exist.  Direct knowledge rebuts our poser that It is not
manifest or experienced.

Verse 57:-  The statement:  "The tenth man exists, is not lost"
is indirect knowledge and is not false.  Simlarly, the indirect
knowledge, "Brahman exists" is not false.  In both cases,
the obscuring of the truth due to ignorance is the cause.

Verse 58:-  By a thorough analysis of "Self is Brahman", the direct
knowledge, "I am Brahman" is acheived, just as the man
after having been told that he is the tenth, comes to reaize it
through reflection.

Verse 61:-  The Vedic texts such as, "Before the creation,
Brahman alone existed", gives indirect knowledge of Brahman.
But the text, " You are That" gives direct knowledge.

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (3)
« on: August 18, 2008, 02:39:13 PM »
The Chapter VII continues:

Verse 28:-  Seven stages can be distinguished in respect of
the Self.  ignorance, obscuration, superimposition, indirect
knowledge, direct knowledge, cessation of grief and the rise
of perfect satisfaction.

Verse 29:-  Chidabhasa (the image or individual soul) with
his mind devoted to worldly existence does not know that
there is self evident Kutastha (the Brahman).  This is

Verse 30:-  Kutastha, is not manifest, there is no Kutastha --
these are the ideas that characterize the obscuring stage,
caused by ignorance. The Chidabhasa further says, "I am
the doer and enjoyer" and expriences pains and pleasures,
and this is superimposition.

Verse 31:-  From the teacher, he comes to know of the
existence of Kutastha, indirectly.  This is indirect knowledge.
Then, by means of viveka, discrimination, he directly realizes
- " I am Kutastha".  This is direct knowledge.

Verse 32:-   Now he is free from the erroneous idea that he is
a doer and so enjoyer of the fruit of his actions.  With this
conviction his grief comes to an end.  He feels that he has
accomplished all that was to be accomplished and experiences
perfect satisfaction.  This is cessation of grief.

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (2)
« on: August 18, 2008, 02:25:35 PM »
The Chapter VII of Panchadasi, is called Tripti Deepa or the Lamp of
Perfect Satisfaction.

Verse 6:-  The jiva with Kutastha (the Brahman), as his substratum
becomes an agent and seeks liberation or pleasures of heaven
and earth. Chidabhasa (the image), the reflection of Pure Consciousness,
alone cannot be so, for superimposition is not possible without a

Verse 8:-  When the jiva gives up his attachment to his illusory
portion, the nature of the substratum becomes predominant, and
he realizes that he is association-less and of the nature of Pure

Verse 15:-  There is no harm for Chidabhasa has no real existence
independent of Kutastha, the Brahman.  An image in a mirror is
not distinct from the object of which it is a reflection. When the
adventitious factors are negated, only Kutastha, the Brahman, remains.

Verse 17:- The idea of "I am Brahman" leads to cessation of
pleasure and pain of the world.  There is a common saying, that
a sacrifice offered to a deity must be appropriate to the deity.  Here,
cessation of pleasure and pain is the sacrifice for the Brahman.

Verse 22:-  The Self is ever there and is cognized.  We speak of Its
being known, directly or indirectly, being known or unknown,  as in the
illustration of the tenth man, who was missing or who was later
found out.

Verse 24:-  Being himself the tenth, he does not find him. 'The
tenth man is not visible, he is absent,' so he says.  Intelligent
people say that this is due to his presence being obscured by
ignorance or Maya.

Verse 25:- He is grieved and cries, because he believes the tenth
to have drowned in the river.  The act of weeping, a result of
false superimposition, is due to illusion or Maya.

Verse 26:-  When told by a competent person that the tenth man
is not dead, he believes by indirect knowledge that he is alive,
just as one believes in the existence of heaven or Brahman, on
the authority of Scriptures.

Verse 27:-  When each man is told:  "You are the tenth" and he
counts himself along with the others, he stops griieving and weeping,
owing to the direct knowledge of the tenth, that is himself.


Arunachala Siva.       

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (1)
« on: August 18, 2008, 02:03:32 PM »
"Panchadasi"  - 15 chapters, is a composition by Sri Madhva Vidyaranya.
It is a comprehensive manual of Advaita Vedanta, running to 568 verses,
in 15 chapters. There are two types of Advaita works.  One is those,
that are intended to serve as books of instructions, for the followers,
and the Second is those that seek to show through dialectics that
the philosphical positions that oppose Advaita are not tenable.  The
Panchadasi belongs to the first type. 

After Sankara, the Advaita philosphy branched off into two broad
categories. The Vivarana school and Bhamati school.  According to
the Vivarana school, the jiva is a reflection of Brahman in nescience.
Brahman is the prototype, reflected in Iswara or personal god. This
is known as Pratibhimba Vada, the argument of reflection.  In
the Bhamati school, jiva is Brahman as defined or delimited by
nescience, or ignorance, or avidya or maya. This is known as
Avaccheda Vada, the argument of delimitation.  In the first one,
the analogy is reflection of the sun in the mirror.  In the second one,
the analogy is ether in the pot. 

Panchadasi is a large composition, and I shall write about
important chapters and from there, a few important verses.

Arunachala Siva.     

Dear PVSSN Raju, You are right, when you say, about thought-excluding
activity, because the thoughts are the villain and they create a sense
of doership.  There is a Zen story.  A Zen master was walking on the
banks of a river, with his two students.  They were about to cross the
river, where it was not very deep, but still some shallow water was there.
There was standing there a beautiful girl, who wanted to cross the
river, but was hesitating because her skirt would become wet.  The
Zen Master lifted her up, kept her on his shoulders and crossed the
stream.  On the other bank, he left her and continued to walk.  His
students became restive.  They were murmuring:  O  He is an ascetic,
a celibate, a scholar, a jnani, how can he take the girl on his shoulders
and cross?.  After a few minutes, the students asked the Master,  "Sir,
the girl..... why should you...."  Then the Zen Master repied:-
" Oh, you are telling about that girl?  I have left her a long time back.
Why are you still carrying her?"

Mind and thoughts are the devils,  Not the doership.

Arunachala Siva.

Dear DRPVSSN Raju, Yes, Bhagavan did that.  He also did the
same for Palaniswami, when he broke his toe.  But when He
had stings of honey bees, when He accidentally trampled on
the honeycomb in the Hill, and when He had a swollen left
leg, with a thousand stings, He allowed the natural healing to
take place and He did not cure Himself immediately.  Because,
in this case, He had committed an injury to honeybees and He
had to atone it.  In other cases, the accidents were natural and
so He decided to cure Himself and Palanswami immediately.

Arunachala Siva.   

General topics / Re: Spiritual being-Human being
« on: August 18, 2008, 01:01:46 PM »
Dear DRPVSSN Raju and non duel, we are all living beings,
trying to find an answer, for the question that never was!

Arunachala Siva.

Dear DRPVSSN Raju,  You are right.  Only the Self should not
be clothed with good or bad garments.  The body can be.  But
certain saints in the past had no clothing.  Even Bhagavan, was
without even any loin cloth some time, since He did not care about
anything other than the Self.  Akka Mahadevi, a famous Veera Saiva
saint of Karnataka, was wearing some leaves of the trees around her
waist.  When Allmma Prabhu, another saint asked her, why should
she care for externals, she replied, "It is not for my sake, that I am
wearing, but for the sake of people like you!!!"

Arunachala Siva.     

Dear non due, I am very pleased about your enthusiasm about
Atma Vidya Vilasam.  I am reading a Tamil version.  I am sure
Sri Ramakrishna Math does not have an English version.  I shall
try in one or two bookshops in Bangalore, which exclusively deal
with books on philosophy and religiion and if I get a good English
version, I can courier it to you.  French translation will not be available.

Arunachala Siva. 

General topics / Re: Living Realised Person
« on: August 18, 2008, 12:44:23 PM »
Dear srkudai, non duel, DRPVSSN Raju,  Very interesting exchange
of posts between you.  Very nice.  Only a few things. 

The Arundati Nyaya, as skrudai points out, the guru shows the way
and the goal has to be reached by us.  To reach the star, Arundati,
the guru shows the two leaves of the tree, through which the disciple,
should further see.  Beautiful.  Bhagavan Sri Ramana says, in Who
am I? "God and Guru will show the way to salvation but not take
you to the salvation".  In fact, Bhagavan never approved the
'cat-way' but recommended the 'monkey way.'  The mother cat will
bite the baby cat and lift it to the place, that she wants to go. The
baby need not make  any effort.   But in case, monkey's case, the baby monkey should hold to the mother. If the baby monkey falls, it is lost,
because the baby has ceased the efforts. 

Dear non duel, you are correct.  We are all bubbles in the ocean.
No one pure, no one is impure.   We are all pure.  There is neither
jnani nor ajnani, as Bhagavan says.  There is only Jnana.

Talking about Chinmayanada of Bhagavad Gita, (the Original Chinamaya Mission people), he was a great scholar and authority on Srimad
Bhagavad Gita, and there it ends.  He used to have snuff, for his
nostrils and will have a sniff of the powder, even during his lecture.
He used to say, "Even if Krishna wants to me to Vaikunta, I cannot
go without my snuff box!"

There were during Bhagavan's time the ganja-takers in the Hill.
The ganja was not banned during His days.  Even someone had
given to Him a large doze of ganja, on a few occasions and He has
taken without any effect, since it was 'offered' by a devoee!    Some
Yogi has remarked,  "Oh Siva, you are calling me, please wait, let
me take my ganja and then come with you!"

I propose to write about Panchadasi, starting from this afternoon.

Arunachala Siva.         

General Discussion / Re: Anyone have info about Michael Langford?
« on: August 18, 2008, 12:24:28 PM »
Dear srkudai,  You are right.  Sri Sadhu Om says in his Path of
Sri Ramana, that many were at the feet of Bhagavan and each
one had a different meaning in His words. For example, Bhagavan
glorified Yoga marga to Gambhiram Seshayyar, but it does not
mean that this is His teachings.  He advised Babu Rajendra Prasad,
(who became later the President of India), to continue his karma
marga, and again, it is not that He advocted karma marga.  Simlarly,
He said to Krishna Premi to pursue bhakti.  All these four paths
are described in Upadesa Saram.  The point is that when one is
reading a person like Sri Suddhanada, we must keep in mind that
Bhagavan recommended all those things that are mentioned in the
book, -  to him, -  and not to everyone, since He was only for self-enquriy.   

Arunachala Siva.

General Discussion / Re: SELF REALISATION
« on: August 18, 2008, 12:15:28 PM »
Dear DRPVSSN Raju, yes.  Experience alone is there and there
is no experiencer and experienced, the duality.  Non objective
experience is the experience of the Self and here the Experience
is the Existence.  To say, objects come and go is not correct, because,
there is no object, "the drisyam" but only "the drik", the subject.

Drik                     Drisyam
Subject               Object
Real                     Superimposed
Siva                      Maya
Seer                     Seen
Jnathuru            Jneyam
Rope                    Serpent

Arunachala Siva.   

General Discussion / Re: SELF REALISATION
« on: August 18, 2008, 12:07:26 PM »
Dear srkudai,  Non objective consciousness means only
object-less consciousness.  Bhagavan says, in Who am I?,
'vichara' means where there is no object.  Sri Sadhu Om,
also says the same thing in the Path of Sri Ramana, a 4 volume
book.  However, for Jnani, who has realized the Self, the appearance
disappearance of world and objects does not make any difference. 
It is he for whom, there is immateriality of the world and objects.
When a photograph which was seen by Bhagavan and also the
others in the Old Hall, was later misplaced and when everyone
was searching for it, someone asked Bhagavan whether he has
seen the photograph and has also seen its misplacement, Bhagavan
said, that he does not know both!

Arunachala Siva.   

Sri Sadasiva Brahmendra's life is said to be full of many miracles.
He was born in Madurai, in a Telugu Brahmin family.  After
wedding, even before he could start a family life, he left
the home and went to his guru Sri Paramasivendra.  After
a brief teaching of upanishads, his guru told him, "Keep still".
He faithfully followed and so many siddhis came to him, but
he did not care.  Once he was walking in a town, near a harem
of a Mohammeddan King.  Seeing him going naked and that too,
without garments, the King chased him and cut his hand.  Sri
Sadasiva, bent down, took his severed hand, placed it back on
his shoulder and continued to walk.  The Nawab was dumbfounded!
The Nawab fell on his feet and sought his forgivenss.  On another
occasion, when he was doing taps on the dry sands of Kaveri river,
a flash flood came and fixed him into a whirlpool.  After three months,
when the waters dried up, he stood up and walked to the banks
of the river.  On more occasion, he was misunderstood as a thief,
when he was sleeping near the rice bags held near a rice field,
and the owner raised his hand to beat him.  That fellow's hand
became paralytic.  On another occasion, when some small urchins
wanted to see Madurai and Siva temple there, he took them through
sky, showed them the place, got some sweets for eats and brought
them back safe to their village near Kaveri. 

Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi has translated a verse of
Sri Sadasiva Brahmendra, as verse 37 of Ulladu Narpadu (Anubandam).

Sri Vidyananada Giri, one of Sadavsiva's disciples, after one or two generation, came to Bhagavan and got his 'upadesa'.

Sri Sadasiva Brahmendra's 'samadhi' is in a place called Nerur,
near Tiruchirapalli.

Arunachala Siva.