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Messages - Subramanian.R

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (149)
« on: August 27, 2008, 01:34:24 PM »
The Chapter XIII continues...

Verse 49:- In an actual modification of the substratum, when
milk is turned into curd (for example), the former form, milk
disappears.  But in the modfication of clay into a pot or gold
into ear ring, the sustratum does not change.

Verse 50:- (Doubt): When a oot is broken into pieces hey
do not resemble the original clay, for broken pieces are only
seen.  (Reply): It is not so, for when reduced to powder,
they do.  The persistence of gold in the ear ring is very clear.

Verse 51:- When milk is turned into curd, actual change of
substratum takes place.  Milk ceases to exist as such and
cannot be recovered from the curd.  By this, the case of
a clay-pot or a gold-ring, as examples of Vivarta, does not suffer.

(Because the original substance, clay or gold, remains un-
changed, and can be recovered from the product.)

Verse 52:- According to the Arambhavadins, clay should have
two sets of properties, viz., those of the cause and those of
the effect, for they hold, the properties of the effects, are
different from those of the cause, which is, however, not
the case.

(Arambhavadins, hold that the properties of the effects are
not different from those of the cause.  Since the properties
of the material cause cannot but inhere in the effects, the
latter must have two sets of properties, those of the cause
as well as the effect.  Actually, however, we see one set of
properties.  Therefore, the theory is defective.)

To be contd.....

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (147)
« on: August 27, 2008, 01:20:50 PM »
The Chapter XIII continues....

Verse 41:-  A product of power through visible has no real
substance, as it is subject to creation and destruction.  When
it appears, it is given a name by men.

Verse 42:- When the product perishes, its name continues
to be used by men.  Since it is indicated only by name, it is
said to be of nominal existence.

(It has only a nominal existence, but no real existence.)

Verse 43:-  This form of the product (of power, like the pot)
is not real like clay, becuase it is unsubstantial, destructible,
and a mere name based upon words.

Verse 44:-  The substance clay is said to be the real entity
because by nature it is unchanged, substantial and indestructible,
at all times, before the production of the pot, after its
destruction, and even while it is manifest.

Verse 45:-  (Doubt):  If the things indicated by three terms,
that is, the manifest, the pot, and the modified form is unreal,
why is it not destroyed when the knowledge of its substratum
(clay) dawns?

(The knowledge of the rope destroys the idea of the snake.
Why should not the knowledge of the clay destroy the idea of
the pot?)

Verse 46:- (Reply):  With the knowledge of the substratum,
the pot is destroyed, for your idea of the reality of the pot
is removed.  This is what meant by the destruction of the pot
through knowledge.  It does not mean that the pot would
cease to appear.

(The objection is:  In all cases of illusion, when the Reality
is discovered, the sumperimposed thing vanishes.  The classic
example is that when rope is discovered, the superimposed snake
vanishes.  Similarly, if the pot is not reality, but  is superimposed
on clay, then on discovery of the clay the pot should cease to
exist, which is not the case.  Why?  The reply is: There are two
kinds of sumperimposition, one with adjuncts, another without
adjuncts.  In the latter case, that is, without adjuncts, as in
that of rope appearing as snake, with the discovery of the real
thing, the superimposed is not only sublated, but it vanishes
from sight. In the former case, that is, with adjuncts, as in
the case of pot and ear ring, the adjuncts respectively, are
the action of the potter's wheel, or the action of goldsmith's
strokes of hammer.)

Verse 47:-  Though a man appears head downwards, when
reflected in water, he is not so.  No one will ever mistake it
for the real person standing on the bank of the river.

Verse 48:-  According to the doctrine of the Non dualists,
such knowledge (that is the knowledge of the unreality
of the superimposed thing, the world) gives liberation,
the supreme goal of life.  As the substratum, clay is not
rejected, the appearance of the a pot in it is also accepted.)

(Like the pot in our example, the world is a sumperimpositon
on Brahman.  The appearance of a pot in the clay may be
accepted.  But the reality of clay is not denied nor that clay
has undergone any real change either.  See also 2.97, 99;
6- 12-24;)

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (146)
« on: August 27, 2008, 12:39:53 PM »
The Chapter XIII continues....

Verse 37:-  A magician's power is not apparent earlier. It is
only, when he brings it into operation, that it appears as an
army of Gandharvas and the like.

(The city of Gandharavas, as per Hindu puranas, is merely
an appearance, like rainbow, without substance.)

Verse 38:-  Thus being illusive, in the scriptures, the products
of power are called unreal whereas, reality is predicted only
of the entity in which the power inheres.  e.g. of the clay in which
pot inheres.

(See Chandogya Up.  6.1.4;)

Verse 39:-  A pot taken as a product of power is only a name
composed of words.  It is not a real entity.  Only the clay
that possesses sound, touch, form, taste and smell is a real

Verse 40:-  Of the three entities, the manifest (that is the
product of power), the unmanifest (that is the power itself)
and the substratum in which they both inhere, the first two
exist by turns (thus cancelling one another), but the third
persists in both and at all times.

(So the third alone is real and is called the Reality.)

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (145)
« on: August 27, 2008, 12:31:05 PM »
The Chapter XIII continues.....

Verse 32:- Before the creation of the pot, the power of giving
rise to a pot, is implied in the clay.  With the help of the potter
and other means, the clay is transformed into a pot.

Verse 33:-  People of immature minds, confound the properties
to the effect, with those of the cause, the clay, and speak of it
as the pot.

Verse 34:-  The clay, before the potter worked on it, cannot
be called a pot.  But is proper to call it a pot, when it acquires
the properties such as the thickness, hollowness, and so forth.

Verse 35:- The pot is not different from the clay, as it has not
existence apart from the clay.  It is neither identical with the
clay as in the unmoulded clay, it is not perceived.

Verse 36:-  Therefore the pot, a product of power, can only
be called indescribable, like the power which produces it.
Hence, the product of power when imperceptible, is simply
called, power, and when perceptible it is called a pot.

(Bhagavan Sri Ramana, used to say that the electricity as
power which is imperceptible, and the burning light and
rotating fan as perceptible.)

To be contd....   

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (144)
« on: August 27, 2008, 12:22:01 PM »
The Chapter XIII continues.....

Verse 28:- By such entertaining tales, Vasishta described the
power of Maya.  This power is now being described more fully.

Verse 29:- This power is different both from the effect and also
from its substratum.  The blister, (which is the effect) and the
charcoal (the substratum) are cognized objects. But the power
to burn is different from the effect, viz., the blister.       

Verse 30:-  The pot with its properties of thickness, roundness
and so forth, is the products of power acting on the clay, with
its five properties of sound, touch, form, taste, and smell,
but the power is different here, from both the pot and the clay.

Verse 31:-  In the power that creates the pot, there is neither
form nor quality.  As it is, it remains, even when it has produced
the effect, it undergoes no change.  It is therefore said to be
beyond thought and description.

To be contd.....

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (143)
« on: August 27, 2008, 12:14:29 PM »
The Chapter XIII continues....

Verse 24:-  'The holy princes came out their city of non
existence, and while reoaming, saw trees laden with
fruits, growing in the sky.'

Verse 25:-  ' Then the three princes, my child, went to a city
which was yet to be built, and lived there happily, passing
their time in games and hunting.'

Verse 26:- "O Rama, the nurse thus narrated the beautiful
children's tale.  The child too through want of discrimination,
believed it to be true."

Verse 27:- "Thus to those who have not discimination, the
world appears to be real like the tale repeated to the child."

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva. 

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (142)
« on: August 27, 2008, 12:03:29 PM »
The Chapter XIII continues...

Verse 20:- ' O Rama, when the all pervasive, eternal and
infinite Self assumes the power of cognition, we call it
the mind.'

Verse 21:-  ' O Prince, first arises the mind, then the notion
of bondage and release and then the universe consisting of
many worlds.  Thus all this manifestation has been fixed
or settled in human minds, like the tales told to amuse children!'

(Bhagavan also says in Who am I?  What is real is the Swarupa.
The Jagat, the individual soul, and Isvara are imaginations, (due
to the mind.) )

Verse 22:- "To amuse a child,  O mighty one, the nurse relates
some beautiful story:  'Once upon a time, there were three
handsome princes....' "

Verse 23:- " ....' Two of them were never born, and the third
was never even conceived in his mother's womb.  They lived
righeously in a city which never existed....'  "

(Viveka Choodamani also says,  The individual soul which is
itself unreal, takes up the vehicle of air, and travels in space,
to find the devil that is  like a disappeared rainbow and kills it
and conquers the city that had already been destroyed.)

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (141)
« on: August 27, 2008, 11:53:24 AM »
The Chapter XIII continues....

Verse 15:- 'With whatever power He means to sport, that
power becomes manifest.  O Rama, the power of Brahman,
which manifests itself as Consciousness is felt in the bodies
of all beings.'

Verse 16:- 'This power abides as movement in the air, as
hardness in stone, as liquidity in water, as the power to burn
in fire.'

Verse 17:-'Similarly, it abides as emptiness in the Akasa, the
Space, and as perishability in the objects which are subject to
destruction.  As a huge serpent is latent in its egg, so the
world is latent in the Self.'

Verse 18:- 'Just as a tree with its fruits, leaves, tendrils,
flowers, branches, twigs and roots is latnet in the seed,
so does this world abide in Brahman.'

(Vivkea Choodamani and Kaivayalyam say that the egg of
a peacock, latently possess all the colour of peacocok's

Verse 19:-  'Due to variations in space and time somewhere,
sometime, some powers emanate from Brahman, just as
varieties of paddy from the earth.

to be contd...

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (140)
« on: August 27, 2008, 11:45:51 AM »
The Chapter XIII continues....

Verse 11:-  Power does not exist, apart from the possessor of
power, for it is always seen as inseparable from him.  Nor can
it be said to be identified with him, for its obsstruction is met
with.  If identical, in the absence of power of what is the

(When obstructed, power is not evident but still it is there.
Like a magician, who is not working but sleeping, his power
is obstructed, not evident, but it is still there. In case of
identity, if power is absent, the posessor also will have
to be absent which it is not, in some cases. If  procreation
of a child is absent in a young lady, then her 'motherhood is
also absent.) 

Verse 12:- Power is inferred from its effect.  When its effects
are not seen we conclude that there is some obstruction to it.
For instance, if the flames of a fire do burn, we infer the presence
of some obstruction, such as incantation etc.,

Verse 13:-  The sages perceived that the power of Brahman, called
Maya, is concealed by its own qualities.  Many are the aspect of this
divine power, which is manifest as action, knowledge, and will.

(See Svetasvatara Up. 1.3; 6.8;)

Verse 14:-  "The Supreme Brahman is eternal, perfect, non dual
and omnipotent."  so says the Veda, and Vasishta supports it.

(For verses 14-17, see Yoga Vasishta, Utpatti Prakarana, 100-101;)

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (139)
« on: August 27, 2008, 11:33:44 AM »
The Chapter XIII continues.....

Verse 6:- The material cause is of three kinds. (1) the Vritttis,
which gives rise to a phenomenal appearance, not materially
related to the cause. (2) the Parinaama, which gives rise to
an effect, which is a modification or change of state of the
cause; and (3) the Aarmba, which consists of effect being
different from the cause.  The last two, which presuppose parts,
have no scope with reference partless Brahman.

(The universe cannot be the product of a real modification
of bliss, for the latter is beyond time and space.)

Verse 7:- The Arambhavadins, accept the production of one
kind of material from another, as cloth from threads and
they consider threads and cloth to be quite different from
each other.

(This is also the Vaisesika View)

Verse 8:-  Parinama is the change of one state of the same
substance into another, as milk into curd, clay into a pot and
gold into a ear ring.

Verse 9:-  But Vivarta is mere apperance of change in a thing
or its state, not a real change, like a rope appearing as a snake.
It is seen even in a partless substance e.g., the Akasa, the Space,
which has no shape or colour, appearing as the blue dome.

(This effect is only a phenomenal appearance seen in the cause.
See also 2.50-53;)

Verse 10:- So the illusive appearance of the world in the partless
bliss, can be explained.  Like the power of a magician, the
power of Maya may be said to bring the objective world into being.

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (138)
« on: August 27, 2008, 11:22:52 AM »
The XIII Chapter of Panchadasi, is called Brahmanande,
Adviatanande,  The Bliss of Nonduality.  It is through non dualism
only, one can attain the Brahman.

Verse 1:-  The bliss of Yoga which was described earlier may be
said to be bliss of the Self.  (Doubt):  How cn the bliss of the
embodied Self, which is in duality, be identified with the bliss of
Brahman, who is nondual?  (Reply): Please listen further.

Verse 2:-  As described in the Taittiriya Upanishad, the whole
world, from Akasa, the Space, to the physical body, is not
different from bliss.  Therefore, the bliss of the Self is the nature
of the nondual Brahman.

(See Taiitiriya Up. 2.1.1; 2.7.1;)

Verse 3:-  The world is born of bliss, it abides in bliss and is
merged in bliss.  How then can it be anything other than this

(Taittiriya Up.  3.6.3;)

Verse 4:-  The pot made by a potter is different from him, but
let this not create any doubt, for like the clay, bliss is the
material cause of this universe not like the potter, who is only
the efficient cause.

Verse 5:-  The existence and destruction of the pot are never
seen to rest in the potter, but the material cause, the clay.
Similarly, according to the Sruti passages their (the existence
and destruction of the universe) material cause is bliss.

To be contd...

Arunachala Siva.   

General topics / Re: WHAT IS EGO ?
« on: August 27, 2008, 11:08:46 AM »
Dear Sankar,  Raju has answered your question.  Mind is said
to be of three kinds, apart from itself.  It is ego, intellect, and
mind-stuff (vasanas).  Ego is that in which, mind thinks that
the world, the individual soul and Isvara, the personal god
are real.  Self enquiry consists in destroying the mind, ego,
the intellect and the mind-stuff.  Self enquiry leads us to merge
in the Self.

Arunachala Siva.

General Discussion / Re: WHAT IS THE MEANING OF
« on: August 27, 2008, 11:04:35 AM »
Dear Sankar,  Hari means one who is green in colour.  It
means Narayana or Vishnu.  Hara means who who dissolves
or destroys.  It means Siva.  Hara does dissolve, not only the
life but also the ego or mind.  Other words, I do not known
the meaning.

Arunachala Siva. 

Dear mikroth,  I can only say what Bhagavan Ramana said:
He says in Who am I?

"What is there, if a number of thoughts arise?  As and when
thoughts arise, you enquire, for whom are these thoughts?
(one thought or a bunch of thoughts.  It may be during enquiry,
or during stilling process.) Then these thoughts will go back
to their "birth-place" that is the Heart. If you continue, there
will be a stage, when there are no thoughts, and only the Self

Again Bhagavan says:  "It wlll be like soldiers coming out of the
fortress.  As long as there are soldiers,  you go on vanquishing them.
Then the fortress will be on your hands."

Arunachala Siva.       

Dear mikroth,  Surrender is not safer.  It is as difficult as Vichara,
the self enquiry.  We are adept in partial surrenders.  Give me only
sweet or I shall shout at you.  Do not give me neem-paste, lest
I should shout at you. Bhagavan means that surrender, 'saranagati'
in Sanskrit, is Atma Samarpanam, giving your stupid self to the Self.
The Self is considered as feet of the Guru.  Tiruvchakam, the famous
poem of Saint Manikkavachagar, is only the glorification of Siva's
feet.  He says, 'it is beyond the seven underworlds, beyond words.
That is what Arunachala Puranam, says.  Siva stood as a column of
Fire, Brahma, the creator flew on a swan to find its head and Vishnu,
the sustainer, bored the earth as a boar, to find its feet.  Both
failed!  Both could not fathom the Self, Brahman.  Muruganar's
Sri Ramana Padamalai, Guru Vachaka Kovai and Sri Ramana Sannidhi
Murai, are all eulogies on Guru's feet.     

Keep one thought "Who am I?" to find the Self, within.

Arunachala Siva.