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Messages - Subramanian.R

Dear DRPVSSN Raju, the six centres of Mooladhara etc., are
different.  The Ashtavakra, denotes eight bends in the Sage's
body, due to some illness.

Arunachala Siva.

General Discussion / Re: Seeker-Goal
« on: August 20, 2008, 07:18:23 PM »
Dear srkudai,  Yes, all paths lead to the Ramana Way.  He had
no quarrel with any other paths.  When Aurobindo said that
there is a Super Mind, which is beyond mind, Bhagavan said:
there are no two minds, but only one mind and only vasanas
are many.  But He permitted certain devotees to go to Aurobindo
to puruse the path most suited to them.

Arunachala Siva. 

General Discussion / Re: Rise of thought-Attention
« on: August 20, 2008, 07:14:33 PM »
Dear non duel,  These are all discussions for the benefit of all.
But no one is forced to accept one or all of them.  Zen koans
are given by the Master and each one works it out in the way
it is suitable to them.  Bhagavan always went by the way of the
questioning devotee and then eventually brought him to the
Self enquiry.  He agreed to Gambhiram Seshayyar in Raja Yoga,
agreed to Krishna Premi in Bhakti Yoga, agreed to Ramanatha
Brahmachari in Karma Yoga.  Ultimately everyone has to
arrive at Jnana Marga, the Self Enquiry.

Arunachala Siva. 

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (33)
« on: August 20, 2008, 05:30:46 PM »
The Chapter IX continues....

Verse 45:-  The future impediment has been illustrated in the
case of Vamadeva.  He overcame it in one birth and Bharata
in three births.

Verse 46:-  In the Gita, it has been told that a Yogi who has not
attained illumination in this life, may be freed from the impediments
after many births.  Yet his practice of enquiry is never fruitless.

(Bhagavad Gita 6.41-45)

Verse 47:- Because of his practice of enquiry such a Yogi enters
into the heaven of the meritorious and then if he is not feed from
desires, he is born again in a pious and prosperous family.

Verse 48:-  Or, if he has no worldly desires, he is born in a
famiy of Yogis who have pure intellect due tp their practice
of enquiry into the nature of Brahman, for such a birth is
hard to obtain.

Verse 49:- He regains the Yogic intellect acquired in his previous
birth and so strives more vigorously.  This birth is indeed hard
to achieve.

Verse 50:- He is borne on by the momentum of his Yogic practices
in the previous birth even against his inclination.  Thus after
many births he achieves perfection and as a result is liberation.

Verse 51:- A man who has a strong desire for Brahmaloka, but
suppresses it and practices enquiry about the Self, will not have

(Mundaka Upanishad, 3.2; 1.2)

Verse 52:-  As the scriptures say, the monk, who has well
ascertained the meaning of Vedanta, goes to the realm
of Brahma and is released at the end of the four Yugas along
with Brahma.

(Mundaka  Upanishad 3.2.6; Brahadaranyaka Up. 6.2.15)

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (32)
« on: August 20, 2008, 05:18:07 PM »
The Chapter IX continues...

Verse 38:-  In spite of repeated enquiry a man does not
realize the truth because of three impediments.  This has
been clearly pointed out in his Vartika by Acharya Suresvara.

Verse 39:- If you ask why the realization (which did not arise
before) comes now, we shall reply that knowledge comes only
with the total removal of impediments, which may be past,
present and future.

Verse 40:-  Therefore only by studying the Veda and Its
meaning, a man is not rleased.  This has been shown in
the example of hidden gold.

(Chandogya Upanishad 8.3.2.  A man may walk on the ground
but may not know that there is gold hidden below.)

Verse 41:-  There is the popular song saying that a monk
could not realize the truth, the impediment being his past
attachment to his queen, or a she-buffalo! (Past impediment)

Verse 42:-  His teacher instructed him of Brahman knowing
his attachment to her, that Brahman was her substratum!
When the impediment was removed, the monk realized the
truth immediately!

Verse 43:-  The impediment of the present are : a) binding
attchments to the objects of the senses, b) dullness of the
intellect, c) indulgence in improper and illogical arugumens,
and d) the deep conviction that the Self is an agent and enjoyer.

Binding attachment to senses:-  eg. every one of us!
dullness of the intellect:- eg. Hastamalaka, disciple of Sankara.
indulgence in logic and arguments:- eg. Narayana Bhattatri,
who spoke ill of Poonthanam in Guruvayoor.       
deep conviction that the Self is an agent: -  all dual philsophers.

Verse 44:-  Through the practice of inner control and other
qualifications and through hearing the truth and so forth,
suitable for counteracting the impediments, the latter slowly
perish and one realizes his Self as Brahman.

(Brahadaranyaka Upanishad.  Viveka Choodamani)

to be contd.....

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (31)
« on: August 20, 2008, 04:37:51 PM »
The Chapter IX continues....

Verse 32:-  If even by enquiry, one does not get the direct
knowledge of Brahman, as the Self, one should repeatedly
practise enquiry, for enquiry, it is proscribed, should continue
until direct knowledge dawns.

Verse 33:- If a person does not realize the Self even after
practising till death, he will surely realize it in a future life,
when all the obstancles will have been eliminated.  (Vichara
in one birth will not go vain.)

Verse 34:-  Knowledge will arise either in this birth or
the next, says the author of Brahma Sutras.  The Sruti
also says that sthre are many who listen to the teachings
on non duality and yet do not realize in this life.

(Brahma Sutra 3.4.51 ; Katha Upanishad 2.7)

Verse 35:-  By virtue of the practice of spiritual enquiry in
a previous birth, Vadmadeva had realization even while
in his mother's womb.  Such results are also seen in the
case of studies.

( Vamadeva's story:-  Aitreya Upanishad 2.5)

Verse 36:- In spite of reading many times a boy may not be
able to memorize something, but some times, next morning
without any further study, he remembers all that he had read.

Verse 37:-  As the seed in the field or in the womb matures
in time, so in the course of time,  practice of self enquiry
gradually ripens and bears fruit.

to be contd...

Arunachala Siva.

Dear sr kudai,  A very good piece.  Please select a few verses
and explain.  It is neither indirect, no direct, and as you said
in English, one can say only as Non Indirect perception. Self
is not an object to be perceived, it is not something which
Guru can make you to realize, because Guru can only show
the way and confer his grace upon you to merge in the Target.

Dear Raju, Even though we call it as Direct perception, since
it is an Experience and not a Perception, there cannot be
a correct translation.  That way, in Sanskrit, certain words
cannot be translated.  For example, for Brahman, we say the Self,
because there is no correct word available.  Bhagavan said,
"Thaan" to denote the Self and "Naan" to denote the mind &
ego.  In English, Osborne used I-I and I, mainly for want
of correct equivalent.  This gave rise to another problem.
Why I-I and I?  Why not "I" and 'i" ?  There is no end.
That is why, Upanisahads say,  "Brahman is That, to which
words try to go and come back, failing!"

Arunachala Siva.   

General topics / Re: Spiritual being-Human being
« on: August 20, 2008, 04:08:33 PM »
Dear non duel,  Cool answer.  In the Self, which is the One
without second, there is no spirit, no human, because to
adjectify the Self, we are doing dis-service.  The question
was raised from Raju's point of view and the answer was
given from non duel's point of view.  But ultimately, there is
neither Raju nor non duel.  But you may appreciate the fact
that all such questions are raised from the duality point of
view and also all answers are given from the duality point of
view.  In the Self, where is the questioner and answerer?
This is what Gaudapada Karika says, when it states:
"There is no creation, no dissolution..." etc.,

Anger was again inferred by me and you say that there was
no anger.  That is all. 

If there is no duality and all is the Self, then, as I said the Forum
has to close the shutters, because all are the Self.

Arunachala Siva.       

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (30)
« on: August 20, 2008, 03:59:59 PM »
The Chapter IX continues....

Verse 22:-  As the perception of duality is opposed to an
indirect knowledge of non duality, a man of faith, expert
in scriptures, can easily have the indirect knowledge of Brahman.

Verse 23:- The perception of a stone image is not opposed
to an indirect knowledge of the deity, whom the image represents.
Which devotee contradicts the idea of Vishnu in the image?

Verse 24:-  The disbelief of those who have no faith, need not
be considered, for the believing alone authorized to perform
the Vedic actions.

Verse 25:-  An indirect knowledge of Brahman can arise even
though a single instruction by a competent teacher, Guru.  It
is like the knowledge of the form of Vishnu which does not
depend on the intellectual enquiry.

Verse 26:- As there may be doubts about them, ritualistic works
and methods of worhsip have been discussed (in the scriptures).
Who otherwise could have synthesized the directions about them,
scattered as they are over many branches of Vedas?

Verse 27:- Such rituals and methods of worship are have been
colleced and co-ordinated in the Kalpa Sutras.  With their
help, man who has faith, may practise them without further

(Kalpa Sutras are six in number, compiled by Jaimini, Asvalayana,
Apasthamba, Bodhayana, Katyayana and Vikhanasa.  They
are Vedanga, a sub-branch of Vedas.)

Verse 28:- The methods of worship are described in other
works by seers.  Those who are full of ratiocination go to
a teacher and lern the methods from him.

(worship methods, Bhakti Sutras, are compiled by seers like

Verse 29:- To determine the correct meaning of Vedic texts
let the learned resort to enquiry, but practical worship can
be performed, with benefit, according to the teachings of a
competent teacher.

Verse 30:-  The direct realization of Brahman, however, is
never possible only from the instructions of a competent
teacher without the practice of self-enquiry.

(Vichara, enquiry, includes both critical reflectionand also
one pointed meditation, see Viveka Choodamani.)

Verse 31:- Want of faith alone obstructs the indirect knowledge;
want of enquiry is however, is the obstacle to the direct

(See Viveka Choodamani and Aparoksanubhuti)

to be contd...

Arunachala Siva.             

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (29)
« on: August 20, 2008, 03:28:19 PM »
The Chapter VI continues...

Verse 11:-  Otherwise, how could images of clay, wood and stone
be worshipped as deities or how could a woman be worshipped
as fire?  (In Panchagni Vidya, a woman is worshipped as fire.)

Verse 12:-  From the knowledge and (or) adoption of a wrong
means, sometimes, by accident, as in the sitting of a crow
on the branch of a palm tree and in the instantaneous fall of
a fruit thereof, a desired result is obtained.  This knowledge
and (or) adoption of a wrong means is called a Samvadi Bhrama,
or a leading error or error leading to a right knowledge.

Verse 13:-  The leading error though a wrong notion is potent
enough to give the correct result.  So also the meditation or
worship of Brahman leads to liberation.

Verse 14:-  After indirectly knowing the one indivisible homogeneous
Brahman from the books on Vedanta, one should meditate on or
think repeatedly " I am Brahman".

Verse 15:-  Without realizing Brahman, to be one's own Self,
the general knowledge of Him, derived through study of scriptures
viz., Brahman is, is here called indirect knowledge, just as our
knowledge of the forms of Vishnu etc., is called.

Verse 16:-  One may have knowledge of Vishnu from scriptures
as having four arms etc., but if one does not have a vision of Him,
he is said to have only indirect knowledge, inasmuch as he
has not  seen Him with his eyes.

Verse 17:- This knowledge because of its defect indirectness
is not false, for the true form of Vishnu has been revealed by
the scriptures, which are authoritative.

Verse 18:-  From the scriptures a man may have a conception
of Brahman as existence, consciousness and bliss but he cannot
have a direct knowledge of Brahman, unless Brahman is cognized
as the inner witness in his own personality!

Verse 19:-  As the knowledge of Sat-Chit-Ananda has been
acquired in the scriptural method, it, though an indirect
knowledge, is not an illusory one.

Verse 20:- Though Brahman has been described as being
one's own Self, one cannot understand It without the

Verse 21:-  As long as the delusion that the body is the Self,
is strong in a man of dull intellect, he is not able to know Brahman
as the SELF.

Arunachala Siva. 

General topics / Re: Spiritual being-Human being
« on: August 20, 2008, 03:08:24 PM »
Dear DRPVSSN Raju,  Excellent insights.  Thank you.  In Tamil
books it is said that Cow Lakshmi was Echammal in its previous
birth.  The white peacock was Madhava Swami, as David Godman
writes. There is one more incident mentioned in Arunachala Purana,
that an advanced soul was born again as a bush of thorns, in the Hill,
to clear the prarabdha, and it caught fire and disppeared, when
some great Jnani trampled on it!  There are also stories like this
in Srimad Bhagavatam also.  Like Gajendra, for example.

Arunachala Siva. 

General Discussion / Re: Self-consciousness-Thinking
« on: August 20, 2008, 02:59:50 PM »
Dear Raju and srkudai,  Nice exhange of ideas and all is well
that ends well.  As Socrates said:  I have every right to say
that you are wrong.  But I have no right for stopping you
from what you say."   We are all having doubts and seek
clarifications from other members and if they say some thing,
it is for us to get convinced and accept or reject.  But, we have
no right to prevent their opinions/views/convictions.

Dear srkudai,  You have said:  Thoughtlessness is NOT Self realization.
I am still pondering over it.  I shall not answer till I know what
is right or wrong.  But who am I to prevent you from saying what
you feel or get convinced about?

Arunachala Siva.

General Discussion / Re: Self attentiveness-self forgetfulness
« on: August 20, 2008, 02:51:31 PM »
Dear Raju (Oh!  non duel saved us from the difficulty of addressing you!)
and srkudai,

Bhagavan says in Who am I?:

Remaing quite is what is called wisdom insight.  To remain quiet
is to resolve the mind in the Self.  Telepathy, knowing the past,
present and future happenings, clairvoyance do not constitute

Desirelessness is Wisdom.  The two are not different.  They are
the same.  Desirelessness is refraining from turning the mind
towards any object.  Wisdom means appearance of no object.
In other words, not seeking what is other than the Self is
Desirelessness.  Not leaving the Self is Wisdom.

Inquiry consists in retaining the mind in the Self.  Meditation
consists in thinking that one's Self is Brahman, Existence-

Inquiring into the nature of one's self that is in bondage
and realizing one's own true nature is release       

Is it not the same as leaving the bag and picking up the bag
and vice versa?

Arunachala Siva.

General Discussion / Re: Seeker-Goal
« on: August 20, 2008, 02:41:24 PM »
Dear DRPVSSN Raju and srkudai,  Nice exchange of ideas.  "We
are all such stuff as dreams are made on and our little life is rounded
with a sleep."   There is a story about Kaduveli Siddhar, a Brahma
Jnani.  The King wanted to test him and sent a courtesan to attract
him.  The lady won the battle,  Kaduveli Siddhar married her, begot
a kid and was looking after the kid, whenever the lady went for
a dancing job.  She told the King also about her victory over the
Siddhar.  One day, when she was away, the baby cried for milk,
and the Siddhar ran to the King's court to give the baby to the
lady, who was dancing.  Everyone was laughing at the Siddhar.
"See here is a man who is said to be a Brahma Jnani but had a
baby through illicit relationship.".  The lady was dancing, and
suddenly her anklet got snapped and she was bending to set it
right.  The Siddhar said, "I shall set right the anklet, and meantime,
you feed the baby."  The King roaring with laugher asked the
Siddhar, "Are you a Brahma Jnani, still?"  Then the Siddhar
said pointing to a stout pillar in the hall,  " Oh Pillar!  If you
are the Brahman and I am a Brahma Jnani, please open up
and consume me!".  The pillar opened up, the Siddhar went into
the pillar and the pillar got closed as before!     

Dear 'kudai',   Ultimately, the bhavana that comes out of faith,
is a great thing in our path for self enquiry. 

Arunachala Siva.

The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Re: Prarabdha
« on: August 20, 2008, 02:30:14 PM »
Dear srkudai,  Your writing about 4 margas and 'the conviction'
is excellent.  Bhagavan always says that 'the conviction' is the
essential thing, be it a god or a guru.  This is explained in detail,
in Ribhu Gita.  As you know it is called 'bhavana' is Sanskrit and
Ribhu Gita spends an entire chapter on 'bhavana', which is the
most important requirement in any path.  Bhagavan asks: When
you travel in a first class compartment, and tell the guard or
conductor to wake you up at a particular station, and the  go
to sleep, you have a conviction that the guard will wake you
up at proper time and at proper destination.  Why not you have
the same conviction with your Guru?"   Thus the same principle
is to be adopted in our pursuit of self enquiry.  Ribhu Gita says,
"Forsake all the bhavanas and keep only the bhavana, I am Brahman,
and this will lead you to merge in Brahman."

Nice post.

Arunachala Siva.