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Messages - Subramanian.R

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (52)
« on: August 22, 2008, 12:19:33 PM »
The Chapter I continues....

Verse 44:- Brahman becomes the material and efficient
cause of the world when associated with those aspects of
Maya, in which there is a predomination of tamas and sattva
respectively.  This Brahman is referred to as "That" in the
text, Thou Art That.

Verse 45:- When the Supreme Brahman, superimposes on
Itself, Avidya, that is, sattva mixed with rajas and tamas,
creating desires and activities in It, then it is referred to as
"Thou" in the text, Thou Art That.

Verse 46:- When the three mutually contradictory aspects
of Maya are rejected, the remains the one indivisible Brahman
whose nature is Existence-Knowledge and Bliss.  This is pointed
out in the great saying:  Thou Art That.

Verse 47:-  In the sentence 'This is that Devadatta', this and
that refer to different time, place and circumstances.  When
the particular connections of this and that are rejected, Devadatta
remains as their common basis.

(Please refer my description of Jahat-ajahat lakshana, in
Viveka Choodamani.)

Verse 48:- Similarly, when the adjuncts, Maya and Avidya,
the conflicting cannotations in the proposition Thou Art That,
of Brahman and Jiva are negated, there remains the indivisible
Supreme Brahman, whose nature is existence, knowledge and

Verse 49:- (Objection): If the denoted object of Thou Art
That, that is, Brahman, is with attributes, then it becomes
unreal.  Secondly, an object without attributes is neither seen
nor is possible to conceive. 

Verse 50:-  (Reply):  Does the objection you have raised
relate to Brahman without attributes or with attributes?
In the first, you are caught in your own trap.  If the second,
it involves logical fallacies of infinite regress, resting on
oneself etc.,

(If you say, Brahman with attributes, you are caugt in your
own trap, because, then, you have to accept the Brahman
without attributes.  If this is Brahman without attributes, if
you say, 'it is not seen or conceived,' then, you have to accept
Brahman with attributes, hence this logic is infinite regress,
that is infinite looping like we see sometimes in computer, where
the same set of frames are shown endlessly repeating.  It is
like asking, which came first, the egg or the hen?)

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (51)
« on: August 22, 2008, 11:59:41 AM »
The Chapter I continues...

Verse 38:- The physical body present in one's consciousnes,
is absent in the dreaming state, but the witnessing element,
Pure Consciousness, persists in both the waking and dreaming
states.   This is the invariable presence, Anvaya, of the Self.
Though the Self is perceived, the physical body is not;
so the latter is not a variable factor.

Verse 39:- Similarly, in the state of deep sleep, the subtle
body is not perceived, but the Self invariably witnesses
that state.  While the Self persists, in all states, the subtle
body is not perceived in deep sleep and so it is called a
variable factor.

Verse 40:-  By discrimination of the subtle body and recognition
of its variable, transient character, the sheaths are understood
to be different from the Self, for the sheaths are conditions of the
three gunas, - characteristics, - and differ from each other.

Verse 41:- Avidya, manifested as the causal body or blissful
sheath, is negated in the state of deep meditation, in which
neither subject nor object is experienced, but the Self persists
in that state.  So it is the invariable factor.  But the causal body
is a variable factor, for though the Self persists, it does not.

Verse 42:- As the slender, internal pith of a munja gross
can be detached from its coarse external covering, so the
Self can be distinugished through reasoning from the
three bodie, or the five sheaths.  Then the Self is recognized
as the Supreme Consciousness.

Verse 43:-  In this way, the identity of Brahman and Jiva
is demonstrated through reaosoning.  This identity is taught
in the sacred texts in sentences such as "Thou Art That."
Their method of explaining the Truth is through the elimination
of incongruous attributes.

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.     

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (50)
« on: August 22, 2008, 11:43:18 AM »
The Chapter I continues...

Verse 26:-  To provide the Jivas, with objects of enjoyment
and make the bodies fit for such enjoyment, the all powerful
Isvara has made each of the subtle elements partake of the
nature of the others.

Verse 29:-  They are only external things and are devoid
of the knowledge of their true inner nature. They perform
actions for enjoyment and again they enjoy for performing

Verse 30:- They go from birth to birth, as worms that have
slipped into a river are swept from one whirlpool to another
and never attain peace.

Verse 31:- When the good deeds performed by them in the
past births bear fruit, the worms enjoy being lifted from the
river by a compassionate person and placed under the shade
of a tree on the bank.

Verse 32:-  Similarly, the Jivas, finding themselves in  the
whirlpool of worldly duties, receive the appropriate initiation
from a teacher who himself has realized Brahman, and
differentiating the Self from its five sheaths, attain the Supreme
Bliss of release.

Verse 33:-  The five sheaths of the Self are those of the food,
the vital air, the mind, the intellect and bliss.  Enveloped in them,
it forgets its real nature and becomes subject to transmigration.

Verse 37:- By differentiating the Self, from the five sheaths
throught the method of discrimination, between the variable and
the invariable, one who draws out one's own Self, from the five
sheaths and attain Supreme Brahman.

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (49)
« on: August 22, 2008, 11:31:43 AM »
The Chapter I continues.....

Verse 15:-  Prakrti (that is, the primordial substance) is that
in which, there is the reflection of Brahman, that is Pure
Consciousness and Bliss and is composed of Sattva, Rajas,
and Tamas (in a state of homoeneity).  It is of two kinds.

Verse 16:- When the element of sattva is pure, Prakrti is
known as Maya.  When impure (being mixed up with rajas
and tamas), it is called Avidya.  Brahman, reflected in Maya,
is known as omniscient Isvara, who controls Maya.

Verse 17:- But the other (that is Jiva, which is Brahman
reflected in Avidya) is subjected to Avidya, impure Sattva.
This Jiva is of different grades due to degrees of admixture
of rajas and tamas.  The Avidya, the nescience, is the causal
body.  When the Jiva identifies himself with this causal body,
he is called Prajna.

Verse 18:- At the command of Isvara and for the experience
of Prajna, the five subtle elements, ether, air, fire, water
and earth, arose from the part of Prakrti in which tamas

Verse 19:- From the sattva part of the five subtle elements
of Prakrti arose in turn the five subtle sensory organs of hearing,
touch, sight, taste, and smell.

Verse 20:- From a combination of them all, that is sattva
portion of the five subtle elements, arose the organ of inner
conception called antakharana.  Due to difference of function,
it is divided into two.  Manas (mind) is that aspect whose function
is doubting and buddhi (intellect) is sthat whose functions are
discrimination and determination. 

Verse 21:- From the rajas portion of the five elements, arose
in turn the organs of action known as the organ of speech,
the hands, the feet, the organs of excretion and procreation.

Verse 22:- From a combination of them of them all, arose
the vital air, prana.  Again, due to difference of functions
it is divided into five.  They are prana, apana, samana, utana
and vyana.

Verse 23:-  The five sensory organs, the five organs of action,
the five vital airs, mind and intellect, all the seventeen together
form the subtle body, which is called Sukshma or linga sarira.

Verse 24:-  By identifying himself with the subtle boyd and
thinking it to be his own, Prajna becomes known as Taijasa,
and Isvara as Hiranyagarbha.  Their difference is sthe one
betwen the individual and collective, (that is, one is identified
with a single subtle body and the otehr with totality of subtle

Verse 25:- Isvara, as Hiranyagarbha, is called 'totality' because
of his sense of idenification with all the subtle bodes of the
universe.  The other, the Taijasa, is called the 'individual'
because it lacks this knowledge and is conscious only of his
self, being identified with his own subtle body only.     

to be contd...

Arunachala Siva.       

General Discussion / Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
« on: August 22, 2008, 11:05:51 AM »
Dear srkudai and Raju,  In the movie example, the movie is the
Jagat and not I.  By seeing the character in the movie as 'I', you
are acting by superimpsing yourself in you.  The Watcher is the
Self.  When the watcher stops seeing the movie, the movie does
not stop.  Here the world does not stop.  But for whom?  For
others.  So far, you are concerned, the continuation of movie
is as good as its stopping, becuase, you are not seeing,  At night,
when you are sleeping, the world is not there for you.  But for
a mechanic doing night shift in the office, the world is.  Bhagavan's
reference is always towards the 'seeker' and all the upadesa is
for the seeker.  Hence, He does not bother, whether the world
is there for others , but only says that the world is not there for you.

Hence, I still believe that the thoughtless state is a self realized
state.  If a Jnani does work, he does so, as I told earier, with the
Suddha manas, a Pure Mind, which is like a burnt rope.  In other
words, things around a Jnani happen because of his Sannidhya,
the power of the presence.

All of us can discuss this thing further, for more light to the topic.

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (48)
« on: August 21, 2008, 07:24:46 PM »
The Chapter I continues....

Verse 8:- This consciousness, which is our Self, is of the nature
Supreme Bliis, for it is the object of greatest love, and love for
the Self is seen in every man, who wishes, 'May I never cease
to be',  'May I exist for ever'.

Verse 9:- Others are loved for the sake of the Self, but the Self
is loved for none other.  Therefore, the love for the Self is the
highest.  Hence the Self is of the nature of the highest bliss.

Verse 10:- In this way, it is established by reasoning that the
individual Self is of the nature of existence, consciousness and
bliss.  Similar is the Supreme Brahman.  The indentity of the two is
taught in the Upanishads.

Verse 11:- If the Supreme Bliss of the Self is not known, there
cannot be the highest love for it.  But it is there.  If it is known,
there cannot be attraction, for worldly objects.  That too is here.
So, we say, this blissful nature of the Self, through revealed, is
not, strictly speaking, revealed.

Verse 12:-  A father may distinguish the voice of his son chanting
(the Vedas) in chorus with a number of pupils but may fall to note
the peculiarities, due to an obstruction viz., its having been mingled
with other voices.  Similar is the case with bliss. Because of obstruction,
it is proper to say the bliss 'is known yet unknown.'

Verse 13:-  Our experience of the articles of everyday use, is
that they 'exist', they 'reveal'.  Now an obstruction is sthat which
stultifies this experience of existence and revelation and produces
the counter-experience that they are not existing, they are not

Verse 14:-  In the above, illustrated the cause of the obstruction
to the voice of the son being fully recognized is the chorus of
voices of all the boys.  Here, the one cause of all contrary experience
is indeed, the beginningless Avidya.

to be contd..

Arunachala Siva.         

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (47)
« on: August 21, 2008, 05:52:54 PM »
The first chapter, called as Tattva Viveka, or The differntiation
of the Real Principle, works out the elimination of non-Self
items, and the details are mostly known to the Forum members.
Hence, I am only mentioning some select verses.

Verse 3:-  The objects of knowledge, Jnana Indriyas, like the
sound, touch, taste etc., which are perceived in the waking
state are different from each other, but consciousness of these
which is different from this does not differ because of its

Verse 4:- Similar is the case in the dream state. Here the
perceived objects are transient and in the waking state,
they seem permanent.  So there are difference between them
But the consciousness in both the states does not differ.
It is homogeneous.

Verse 5:-  A person awaking from deep sleep consciously
remembers his lack of perception during that state.
Remembrance consists of objects experienced earlier. It
is therefore clear that even in deep sleep, 'want of knowledge
is perceived.

Verse 6:-  This consicousness (in the deep sleep state) is
indeed distinct, from the object (here, it is ignorance), but
not from itself, as is the consciousness in the state of dream.
Thus in all the three states, the consciousness, being homogeneous
is the same.  It is so, in other days too.

Verse 7:- Through the many months,years,ages and world cycles,
past and future, consciousness is the same.  It neither rises,
nor sets, unlike the Sun.  It is self-revealing.

to be contd...

Arunachala Siva.

General Discussion / Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
« on: August 21, 2008, 05:31:41 PM »
Dear srkudai,  Yesterday, I mentioned "thoughtless state is
self realization" and you had a different view.

Again,  I am quoting from Who am I?  Please read this, and
tell me, whether 'thoughtless state is self realization".

Under Question 16, Bhagavan says:  The Self is that where there
is absolutely no "I" thought.  This is called, 'Silence'.  The Self
itself is the world, the Self itself is "I".  The Self itself is God.
All is Siva, the Self.

(Here Bhagavan mentioned "I" thought, because "I" thought
is the root of all thoughts).

Again under Question 25, Bhagavan says:  "Remaining quiet is
what is called Wisdom-insight.  To remain quiet is to resolve the
mind in the Self......"

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Re: Panchadasi - (28)
« on: August 21, 2008, 05:23:06 PM »
Dear srkudai, since you showed a special liking for this chapter
on meditation, I took it up after Chitra deepa and Trupti Deepa.

Arunachala Siva.

General topics / Re: Spiritual being-Human being
« on: August 21, 2008, 05:19:40 PM »
Dear Raju,  Yesterday, in a post under this Topic, I referred
to Cow Lakshmi as reincarnation of Echammal and this is
not correct.  Cow Lakshmi, as Bhagavan Himself has confirmed
was a reincarnation of Keerai Patti (the Grandma of the greens).
Again, as you have correctly said, Bhagavan was not with Cow
Lakshmi, till her very end, becuase, unlike Mother Azhagamma,
she did not have any gushing vasanas, towards the last few
minutes or hours and so Bhagavan left her to merge in the Self,
peacefully, without any last minute help.

Arunachala Siva.   

General topics / Re: Meditation
« on: August 21, 2008, 04:46:51 PM »
Dear srkudai,  I shall, Bhagavan willing try to do it, after
completing Panchadasi, which is a massive work.  For Upadesa
Saram, I shall follow Osborne's translation, after consulting
Sri Sadhu Om's and Smt Kanakammal's Tamil commentary.  I want
to get the first  book, when I go to T.malai , coming Monday.  My wife
has already said that I should restrict my book purchases to less than
Rs 1000.00.  I have got  Bhagavan with me to select the best ones.

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Re: Panchadasi - (45)
« on: August 21, 2008, 04:39:41 PM »
Dear non duel,  Thanks.  I do not much about filing and arranging
through webmaster.  One can follow the traditional method of
printing and filing, till one comes to know about the advanced
variation.  As for posting, I do it in the morning, till I get my
back ache, stop and proceed after lunch.  I would like srkudai
to do the same for Ashtavakra Samhita, that is serial writing,
but not with suffering intermittent back aches!

Arunachala Siva.

Dear Raju, your post, giving additional insights is really adding
ghee to the rice.


Dear srkudai, I agree with you.  Forgetting unimportant things,
like what I ate for breakfast last Thursday, is a gift.  As regards,
the two methods, I believe Bhagavan stressed on the monkey method,
that we should hold on to Guru with our efforts.  Bhagavan says:
" God and the Guru will only show the way to release.  They will
not by themselves take the soul to the state of release.  In truth,
God and the Guru are not different.  Just as the prey which has
fallen into the jaws of a tiger has no escape, so those who
have come within the ambit of the Guru's gracious look will
be saved by the Guru and will not get lost.  Yet, EACH ONE
SOMEBODY ELSE'S.  Does he, who is Rama, require the help of
a mirro to know that he is Rama?"  (Who am I? 1902)

Perhaps, Guru's Grace, may be interpreted as a mother cat's
lifing of the baby-cat through its jaws.   But eventually we have
to be monkeys to win the game.

Arunachala Siva.     

Dear Raju, Non duel has answered your point further.  I have
the same view.

Arunachala Siva.