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Messages - Subramanian.R

47476
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (63)
« on: August 22, 2008, 05:19:34 PM »
The chaper II coninues....

Verse 65:-  It is common knowledge that correct understanding
makes a thing appear as it is, in itself, and illusion makes it
appear differently.

Verse 66:-  A thing appears to be quite different after a thorough
discussions of the Vedic passage concerned, from what is appeared
before such a discussion.  So let us now discuss the nature of
akasa.

Verse  67:- Brahman and akasa are different entities.   Their
names are different, and the ideas conveyed by their names
are too different.  Brahman pervades air and other objects.
Such is not the case with akasa.  This is what we know to be
the difference.

Verse 68:-  The entity, Sat being more pervading is the locus
or substance.   And akasa, being less pervading a content,
or an attribute. When by the excercise of reason or intellect,
Sat is separated from akasa, tell me what the nature of akasa,
is, it is reduced to nothing.

Verse 69:-  If you hold that when existence is abstracted from
it, akasa will still remain as space, then we should say that it
is regarded as 'nothing'. If you say:  It is different from Asat
as well as Sat, for you do not  admit anything which is different
from both, which we of course hold.

Verse 70:-  If you argue that akasa is evident, then we reply,
let it be, it is to the credit of the powers of Maya.  The appearance
of an object which in fact non existent, is an illusion, mithya,
which is again the power of Maya, just as the elephant seen
in a dream!

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.       

47477
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (62)
« on: August 22, 2008, 05:01:29 PM »
The Chapter II continues...

Verse 58:-  Sruti, the wellwisher of the questioner, being
asked whether Maya pervades the whole or part of Brahman,
speaks of the partless as having parts in order to explain the
non dual nature of Brahman, by giving illustrations.

Verse 59:- With Brahman, as its basis, Maya created  the
various objects of the world, just as a variety of pictures
are drawn on a wall by the use of different colours.

Verse 60:- The first modification of May is Akasa, the Space.
Its nature is space that is, it gives room to things to exist and
expand.  Akasa, derives its existence from Brahman, its
substratum.

Verse 61:-  The nature of Brahman is existence only.  Brahman
is spaceless, but Akasa, has both space and existence as its nature.

Verse 62:- Akasa also has the property of conveying and
communicating sound, which Brahman, does not have. Thus
Akasa, has two properties, sound and existene, whereas Brahman
has only one - existence.

Verse 63:-  The same Sakti, the power, that is Maya, which has
conjured up akasa, in the real entity, Sat or Existence, has also
produced the differences between them, as of substance and
property, in the reverse way, after having shown their identity.

Verse 64:-  It is Sat, which appears as akasa, but ordinary
people, and the logicians say that existence is a property of
akasa.  This is only to be expected, because Maya is a conjurer!

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.

47478
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (61)
« on: August 22, 2008, 04:34:14 PM »
The Chapter II continues.....

Verse 52:- If it is argued that increase in one's power lead
to the prolongation of his life, we counter it by saying that
the prolongation is not the result of power but the effects
thereof, such as war, agriculture etc.,

Verse 53:- Power is now here considered to be independent
of its substratum.  Before creation, no effects of power
existed.  What grounds are there for assuming a duality?

Verse 54:-  Power does not operate in the whole of Brahman,
but only in a part of it.  Earth's power of producing pots is
not seen in all earth, but in a portion of earth viz., mud or clay,
that is mixed with water.

Verse 55:-  The Sruti says:  "Creation is only a quarter of Brahman,
the other three quarters are self-revealing, that is, not dependent
on Maya's effects for its revelation.  Thus does the Sruti say, "Maya
covers but a part of Brahman".

(Purusha Sukta 3;  Chandogya Up. 3.12.5.  Brahman is no doubt
partless, but Its parts have been hypothetically taken to show
the littleness of creation.)

Verse 56:- In the Gita, Sri Krishna says to Arjuna:  "The world is
sustained by a part of Mine," indicating is sustained by a part
of the Lord.  (Gita 10.42)

Verse 57:- The Sruti supports the same view, "The Supreme
Spirit, pervading the world on every side, yet extends ten
fingers beyond it."  In the Sutras too, Brahman is declared
to transcend the world of differences.

(Literally, the ten fingers; realistically, that Brahman is beyond
space. It may also mean ten directions.  Svetasvatara Up. 3.14;
Brahma Sutras 4.4.19.  Sri Sankara, apart from 8 major upanishads,
has also written a commentary on Svetasvatara Upanishad, because
of its advaitic content.)

to be continued......

Arunachala Siva.

47479
General Discussion / Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
« on: August 22, 2008, 04:03:41 PM »
Dear Raju, in spiritual game, every one is a winner, because
everyone gets gold medal, that is Light.  There is no silver and
bronze here.

Dear srkduai, the when the person who is an audience in the
movie, becomes the Witness, it does not matter, whether the
play stops or not.  If by inter galactic wars, all the universe
perishes, even then Brahman is a Witness, though the 'play'
has stopped.  At that time, the 'maha-maya' curls up into the
Brahman.  Or Sakti is united with Siva, till the next play starts,
for her to do her mischief.

Arunachala Siva.


47480
General Discussion / Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
« on: August 22, 2008, 03:54:39 PM »
Dear srkudai,  You said it.  In retrospect, I think, Bhagavan
said this "Suddha manas" concept for two reasons.  One is
to clarify the doubt of the seekers, as how can Bhagavan do
all the work in this world,  without mind.  Second, many of us are damn afraid of mano-nasa, thinking that we would then go mad!  Bhagavan
said:  All right, do not be afraid, have a Suddha manas.  This reminds
me of a story in management.  A person had a monkey, hung
permanently around his neck and the knot was so tight that
no one could untie it.  One doctor said:  All right, I shall sedate
you, so that the monkey will not trouble you and he was put
on sedation.  Another came and said:  No I shall not sedate you,
I shall sedate the monkey, and the monkey was sedated so that
it could not trouble that man.  After sometime, nothing worked.
Then one another doctor came and said:  It is simple, I shall
untie the knot;  he untied it, with some difficulty and both the
man and the monkey became peaceful.  After some time,
the man came again!  I am so much used to monkey and now I am
not able to live without the monkey!  Then the doctor said:
All right, I shall paint a monkey on your chest!  You can always
"feel"  that the monkey is ever with you.  He did the painting,
and the man became peaceful without any further problem.
The painted monkey, is perhaps, the Suddha manas!

Arunachala Siva.
        

47481
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (60)
« on: August 22, 2008, 03:42:52 PM »
The Chapter II continues....

Verse 47:-  As the power to burn exists in fire, the power
of Maya, which has not existence independent of Brahman,
and which is inferred by the effect only, exists in Brahman.
Before the effect appears, the power behind the effect is not
directly experienced by anyone anywhere.

Verse 48:-  The power of a substance is not the substance
itself, as for instance, the power to burn is not the fire itself.
Similarly, Maya which is the power of Brahman, is not Brahman.
If Power is something other than Brahman, then define its
nature. 

Verse 49:-  If you say the nature of Maya is 'nothingness',
then you contradcit yourself in as much as you said that
'nothing' is the effect of Maya.  And as we have said, an
effect of a thing cannot be its nature, an effect being posterior
to the thing.  So you will have to admit that Maya, is neither
'sunya' nor Sat.  But it is, as it is, something undefinable
by either term.

Verse 50:- This peculiar nature of Maya is corroborated by
the Vedic text* which purports there was neither non existence,
nor existence then, (that is before creation), but there was
darkness, (Maya), is due to its association with existence, not
by virtue of itself, in as much as, existence is denied to it.

(Nasadiya Sukta in Rig Veda, 10.129.1 or 8.7.17.1;
 Satapatha  Brahmana 10.5.3.2;
 Taitriya Upanishad 2.8.9.3; )

* The Vedic text alluded here is the famous: " Tama asit
tamasa gudhamagre", that is before creation there was
darkness Brahman, covered by darkenss (Maya).  The first
'tamas' is not the same as the second 'tamas', that is
'tamasa', for a thing cannot be covered by itself. As before
creation, there was nothing else except Brahman and its
power Maya, but the opponents would interpret it as above.
And that is why, "Tamaso ma jyotir gamaya" means "from
darkness of Brahman-Maya, lead us to "Brahman, the effulgent."

Verse 51:-  Hence like nothingness, Maya also cannot be a
distinct entity in Its own right.  In the world too, an able
man and his ability to do great feats, are not considered
two but one.

to be contd.....

Arunachala Siva.   

47482
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (59)
« on: August 22, 2008, 03:20:39 PM »
The Chapter II continues....

Verse 35:-  If you affirm that name and form attributed to an
existing thing are both cretions of Maya, an illusory principle,
then tell us what is the substratum upon which Maya creates
names and forms.  For illusion also, without a substratum,
is never seen.

Verse 37:-  We all use the expressions:  'What has to be done
has been done', 'speech is spoken', 'a burden is borne'.  The
Vedic text 'Existence was' is meant only for those whose minds
are accustomed to such expressions. 

Verse 39:-  Objections are raised and answers are given only
from the point of duality.  From the standpoint of pure non
duality, neither questions nor answers are possible.

Verse 40:-  What remains after dissolution is an unmoving and
ungraspable, unnamed and un-namable, unmanifest, indefinite
something, beyond light and darkness and all pervadiing.

(Yoga Vasishta)

Verse 44:-  Brahman the pure existence without any reference
to the world, can be experienced without an iota of doubt, when
ann mentations cease.  And what we experience is not nothing,
for we are not conscious of the perception of nothing.

Verse 46:- When the mind is void of all mentations, we experience
the Witness or obscuring Cosciousness, in its purity as calm and
unagitated.  Similarly, prior to the functioning of Maya, the
existence, Sat, remained in its purity as quiescence, calm and
unruffled.

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.     

47483
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (58)
« on: August 22, 2008, 03:08:43 PM »
The Chapter II continues...

Verse 27:-  As man who has fallen into the sea, is bewildered
and loses the power of exercising his senses, so they too become
afraid and nervous when they hear of the Reality as only
without parts!

Verse 28:- The teacher Gaudapada speaks of the great fear
of some yogins who are devoted to Brahman with form,
regarding the objectless superconscious state.

(Maandukya Upanishad, Gaudapada Karika 3.39)

Verse 29:- This identification with the ungrasped and ungraspable
Reality is difficult to achieve.  But, they are indeed, seeing the fear in
the fearless. 

(Gaudapada's Asparsa Yoga, in Karika, the touch of the untouch.)

Verse 30:- The highly respected Bhagavatpada Sankara, also refers
to the Madhyamikas, experts in dry rationcination, contradicting
the Vedic views, as confused regarding the self-existent Brahman,
who is beyond thought.

Verse 31:-  These Buddhists merged in darkness and seeing through
the one of inference and neglecting the authority of the Vedas, reached
only 'nothingness'.

Verse 33:- The sun does not have the attributes of darkness. Nor
is it itself of the nature of darkness.  As existence and nonexistence
are similarly contradictory.  You cannot predicate something about
nothing, so how do you say 'nothing existed'?

Verse 34:-(Buddhists):- According to your Vedanta, the names
and forms of Space and other elements are conjured up by Maya,
in or on Sat, the existence or reality.  Similarly, according to us,
they, names and forms, are illusively produced by Maya in or on
Non existence, Asat. (Reply):  Then, may you live long, that is,
you have fallen into a logical trap.  Akasa etc., cannot exist
without the substratum of Brahman and if 'nothing' or Sunya
is also like that, then it also has a real substratum and if so,
you are accepting the Vedantin's position.

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.         

47484
Dear Raju,  Bhagavan during death experience, used the
thought :  Who am I?.  After this enquiry, He realised
the Self-consciousness.   When some one asked Bhagavan
"How much time did you take?", Bhagavan replied: "Where
is the question of time?" meaning that the realization was
instantaneous, because He was an avatara, with no carry bag
of 'vasanas'.  For others, it may take any amount of time.  Certain
students of Bosho school of Zen, work out just one 'koan' for a
few hours and had realization!  Others took years.  In Chandogya
Upanishad, you get stories, that someone took three instalments
of 32 years each, totally 96 years, to merge in the Self.  The Guru
had asked him to go and graze the cows on three occasions of 32
years each.  In Katha Upanishad, Nachiketas just took three days
in Yama's abode to get self realization.

Arunachala Siva.   

47485
General Discussion / Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
« on: August 22, 2008, 02:28:06 PM »
Dear Raju and srkudai,  all this drama occurs because of chit-jada
granthi, the self-body complex.  When we say, mano-nasa, it is
not 'killing the mind', because 'mind' has not got any 'physical
entity' for killing.  It is 'leaving' the mind, or resolving the mind,
once for all and staying in the Self.  Whenever we think of
something, while watching a TV story or a cinema,  and in the process, miss a scene in TV or cinema, we say that 'mind has gone somewhere.
In other words, mind has left the scene.  Again, Raju, it is only
with the mind, the mind can be 'killed ' or left for good.
As Bhagavan says, it is like a stick that is used to stir the funeral
pyre, and after the work is over, the stick is also burnt on the pyre.
(Who am I?).


Arunachala Siva.   

47486
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (57)
« on: August 22, 2008, 02:13:04 PM »
The Chapter II continues....

Verse 19:- "Before all this was created there was Being alone,
one only, without a second.  So, there was neither name nor
form," said Uttalaka Aruni.  (Chandogya Up. 6.2 and 6.3.2-3)

Verse 20:-  Differences are of three kinds; The difference of
a tree from its leaves, flowers, fruits etc., is the difference
within an object.  The difference of one tree from another tree
is the difference between objects of the same class.  The differences
of a tree from a stone is the difference between objects of
different classes. 

Verse 22:-  One cannot doubt that Brahman, the One and only
reality, has no parts, for Its parts cannot be conceived of.  Names
and forms cannot be Its parts, for before creation, they did not arise.

Verse 23:-  As creation means the appearance of names and
forms, they cannot be before creation.  Therefore, like the
Space, Brahman is partless and also there is no difference within It.

Verse 24:-  The difference between objects of the same class
can have no reference to Sat, for noting else exists.  One object
differs from another on account of its name and form, whereas
Brahman is absolutely without name and form.

Verse 25:-  And about non existence; we cannot say that it exists.
So, it cannot serve a 'pratiyogin', that is, total characteristic
that is lacking in another thing.  If so, how can there be 'vijatiya'
difference, that is one's own internal contradiction, like a square-
circle.  Hence Atman and Brahman cannot have vijatiya difference.

Verse 26:- So, it is established that Sat is one only without a second.
But thre are still some who get confused by texts that 'Asat'
- nothing, existed before creation.

('Asat' or 'nothing' or 'sunya' cannot exist before creation, because
there was no time as before creation, because Brahman, is ever
present beyond time and present.  This 'sunya vadha' is from
Madhyamika school of Buddhism.)

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.         

47487
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (56)
« on: August 22, 2008, 01:22:50 PM »
The Chapter II, is called Mahabhootha Viveka, or the Differentiation
of Five Elements.  I am giving only select verses.

Verse 1:-  Brhaman according to Sruti, the non dual reality,
can be known by the process of differntiation from the five
elements.  So the process is now being discussed in detail.

Verse 7:- The five senses successively functioning through the
external apparatus, the gross organs, the eyes, the ears etc.,
are subtle.  Their presence is to be inferred from their functions.
The often move outwards.

Verse 12:-  The mind, the ruler of the ten organs of sense and
action, is within the lotus of the Heart.  As it depends on the organs
of sense and action, for the functions in relation to the external
objects, it is called an internal organ, the anthakarana.

Verse 13:- The mind enquires into the merits and defects of
the objects which are perceived by the senses.  Sattva, rajas
and tamas are its three constituents for through them the mind
undergoes various modficiations.

Verse 14:- Non attachment, forgiveness, generosity etc., are
producs of sattva.  Anger, desires, avarice, effort etc.,  are
produced by rajas.

Verse 15:-  Lethargy, confusion, drowsiness etc., are the products
of tamas.  When sattva functions in the mind, merit is acquired.
When rajas functions demerit is acquired.

Verse 16:-  When tamas functions, neither merit nor demerit
is produced. But life is wasted for nothing.  Of the modfications
of the mind, that of I-Consciousness is the agent.  In the practical
world also, we do the same.

Verse 17:-  Is is quite evident  that the objects in which sound,
touch etc., are clearly discernible are the products of five elements.
With the help of scriptural texts and reasoning it can be conceived
that even for the senses and the mind, the subtle elements
are the basis.

Verse 18:-  Whatever of this world, is perceived, by the senses,
the organs of action, the mind, reasoning and the scriptural texts,
is referred to as 'this', 'idam' in the Sruti text, as follows.
(Idam, this, applied even to the past things is not wrong since
they are felt to be in the present by God or a sage, like Uttalaka
Aruni)  (Refer also Srimad Bhagavad Gita VII. 26).

to be contd...   

Arunachala Siva.

47488
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (55)
« on: August 22, 2008, 12:49:49 PM »
The I chapter continues....

Verse 62:-  Then, the great dictum, freed from the obstacles
of doubts and ambiguity, gives rise to a direct realization of the
Truth, as a fruit in one's palm, Truth, which earlier comprehended
indirectly.

Verse 63:-  The knowledge of Brahman obtained indirectly
from the Guru, teaching, the meaning of the great dictum,
burns up like fire all sins, committed upto that attainment
of knowledge.

Verse 64:-  The direct realization of the knowledge of the
Self obtained from the Guru's teaching of the great dictum,
is like the scorching sun, that dispels the very darkness
of Avidya, the root of all transmigratory existence.

Verse 65:-  Thus a man distinguishes the Self from the five
sheaths, concentrates the mind on It according to the
scriptural injunctions, becomes free from the bonds of
repeated births and deaths and immeidately attains the
Supreme Bliss.

Concluded.

Arunachala Siva.   

47489
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (54)
« on: August 22, 2008, 12:43:54 PM »
The Chapter I continues....

Verse 57:-  The mind continues to be fixed in Paramatman
in the state of samadhi as a result of the effect of will, made
prior to its achievement and helped by the merits of previous
births and the strong impressions created through constant
efforts at getting into samadhi.

Verse 58:-  The same idea Sri Krishna, pointed out to Arjuna
in various ways, e.g. when he compares the steady mind to the
flame of a map in in breezless spot.  (Srimad Bhagavad Gita 6.19).

Verse 59:-  \as a result of this nirvikalpa samadhi, millions of
results of actions accumulated in this beginningless world over
past and present births, are destroyed and pure "dharana".
a state helpful to the realization of Truth, grows.

Verse 60:-  The experts in Yoga, call this as a rain cloud of dharmas,
because it pours forth countless showers of the bliss of dharma.

(That is, a Brhamjnani's state, as that of Bhagavan's state,
is a rain cloud, and it showers bliss of dharma on the devotees
and seekers.)

Verse 61:-  The entire network of desires is fully destroyed
and the accumulated  actions known as merits and demerits
are fully routed out by this samadhi.

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.   

47490
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (53)
« on: August 22, 2008, 12:32:08 PM »
The Chapter I continues....

Verse 51:-  The same logical fallacies may be shown in any
object having substance, species, quality, action or relationship.
So accept all these attributes as existing by the nature of things.

Verse 52:- The Self is untouched by doubts about the presence
or absence of associates, cannotations and other adventitious
relationships because they are superimposed on it phenomenally.

Verse 53:-  The finding out of the true significance of the
identity of the individual self and the Supreme, with the aid
of great sayings like Thou Art That, is what is known as
'sravana' - hearing. And to arrive at the possibility of its
validity through logical reasoning is called, memorizing and
thinking and finding logical support. 

Verse 54:-  And, when by sravana and manana, the mind
develops a fiirm and undoubted conviction, and dwells constantly
on the thus ascertained Self alone, it is called unbroken
meditation, nidhidhyasana. 

Verse 56:- When the mind gradually leaves off the ideas of
the meditation and the act of meditating and is merged on the
sole object of meditation, viz., the Self, and is steady like a
flame of a lamp in a breezless place, it is called Samadhi,
or superconscious state.

Verse 57:- Though in samadhi, there is not subjective cognition,
of the mental function, having the Self as its object, its
continued existence in that state is inferred from the recollection
after coming out of samadhi.

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.