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Messages - Subramanian.R

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (90)
« on: August 24, 2008, 02:47:25 PM »
Verse 21:-  That consciousness which witnesses the interval
between the disappearance and the rise of successive Vrittis,
and the period when they do not exist, and which is itself
unmodifiable, and immutable is called Kutastha.

(Kutastha is unchanging like a 'kuta', the anvil of the blacksmith!)

Verse 22:-  As in the cognition of an external pot, there is
the play of two forms of consciousness -- the reflection of
consciousness which reveals the pot and secondly the Eternal
Consciousness w;ich reveals that the pot is known.

Verse 23:-  Unlike a pot, the intellect is neither an object of
cognition nor of non cognition.  For it cannot grasp itself,
no object can do so, so it cannot be cognized.  Since again,
it removes ignorance settled on objects, it cannot be said to be
non-cognized.  Because, if you know, what is produced,  you
know what produced it as well.

Verse 24:-  Since Chidabhasa, is a double consciousness, we
see it manifested and unmanifested.  Therfore, it cannot be
called immutable Kutasthta, whereas the other is Kutastha,
for it undergoes no such change ever.

To be contd...

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (89)
« on: August 24, 2008, 02:37:21 PM »
The Chapter VIII continues...

Verse 16:-  The cognition, "This is a pot" is due to Cidabhasa,
but the knowledge, "I know the pot" is derived from

Verse 17:-  Just as in object outside the body, Chidabhasa
has thus differentiated from Brahman, so within, the body
too Chidabhasa is to be differentiated from immutable Kutastha.

Verse 18:-  As fire pervades red-hot piece of iron, as Chidabhasa
pervades the I consciousness as well as lust, anger and
other emotions.

Verse 19:-  Even as a red-hot piece of iron manifests itself
only and not other objects, similarly the modifications of the
intellect, Vrittis, aided by Chidabhasa manifest themselves
only that is the things which they cover and not others.

(Manasa Ullasa - 4.2)

Verse 20:-  All the modfications are produced one and after
another, that is wtih gaps in between, and they become latent,
during deep sleep and in the states of swoon and Samadhi.

(Refer Who am I?  for this idea also)

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.     

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (88)
« on: August 24, 2008, 02:29:57 PM »
The Chapter VIII continues....

Verse 11:-  But will it not go against Surevsara's opinion
expressed in the following Vartka? "According to the
authoritative books on Vedanta, an object of cognition,
in matters of external objects, is that Samvit or Consciousness
which is the result of the act of congnition."

(This Vartika of Suresvara has not been traced.)

Verse 12:  Here, by Samvit or Consciousness, what Suresvara
means, is the reflected consciousness, for the great Sankaracharya,
himself, (Suresvara's Guru) in his Upadesa Sahasri* has made the
distinction between Brahman-caitanya and the 'resultant'-
chaitanya, amply clear.

* - Upadesa Sahasri (14.7-8)  of Sankara, has already been covered
in the Forum posts.
Brahman-caityanya is Pure Consciousness, the knowledge of the
knowledge of a pot.  resultant-caitanya, is the other, the knowledge
of a pot.

Verse 13:-  Therefore, the reflection of consciousness produced
on the pot is the cause of its cognition and the knownness or
knowledge of this cognition, exactly as its ignorance, is the work
of Brahman-caityanya.

Verse 14:-  The Vritti of intellect, the reflection of the Cit on
the pot, and the object, the pot --- all three are made known
by Brahman-caitanya.  Whereas, the object, the pot's existence
at a particular place, is known as the reflection of Cit on the pot,
is as much as it is the 'resultant' consciousness.

Verse 15:-  So the knowledge of a pot involves double consciousness,
viz., Brahman consciousness and Vritti-cum-Chidabhasa
consciousness, covering the pot.  The Brahman consciousness
which accompanies what the Naiyayikas* call knowledge of
knowledge, the knowledge which follows the cognition of object.

(* mean, broadly logicians)

to be contd...

Arunachala Siva.


Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (87)
« on: August 24, 2008, 01:28:04 PM »
The Chapter VIII continues....

Verse 6:-  Cognition or knowledge of external things is the
action thereon of  the intellectual modficiation tipped with Chidabhasa,
like the steel head of a spear.  And non cognition is the beginningless
but not endless dullness of an external thing, covering its revelation.
Thus, an external thing is spoken of in two ways, as a thing,
pot, known or unknown as the intellectual modification,
spearheaded  by Chidabhasa pierces its cover of dullness or not.

Verse 7:-  If the cognition of an unknown pot can be had through
Brahman, why not that of a known pot?  It does produce the
cognition, for the Chidabhasa ceases functioning, as soon as
the pot is made known.

Verse 8:- If the intellect is without Chidabhasa, the cognition
of an object cannot take place.  For how long does intellect in
such a case differ from a lump of lcay which is unconcsious
and insentient?

(Manasa Ullasa - 1.22 - 23)

Verse 9: Nowhere is a pot said to be known when it is
besmeared with clay.  Similarly, when a pot is beseameared
with a Vritti only, and not along with Chidabhasa. it cannot be
said to be known, for both the clay and the Vritti themselves,
unconscious and insentient.

(Mere clay before it is made into a pot, is never known
as a pot and called as such.)

Verse  10:-  Hence cognition of a pot, is that reflection of
cosciousness  on the pot which is produced as a result of
the enveloping operation of the Vrriti cum Chidabhasa.
Brahman or Pure Consciousness cannot be this resultant
reflection of consciouisness in as much as it being the
eternal and immutable existence, exists prior to cognition.

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (86)
« on: August 24, 2008, 12:54:56 PM »
The Chapter VIII of Panchadasi, is called "Kutastha Deepa"
or "the Lamp of Kutastha".  Kutastha, as already explained,
is the indwelling Principle.

Verse 1:-  Just as a wall illumined by the rays of the sun is
more illumined when the light of the sun is reflected in a
mirro falls on it, so the body illumined by Kutastha is more
illumined by the light of Kutastha reflected in the intellect,

See also Upadesa Sahasri 15.33

Verse 2:-  When many mirrors reflect the light of the sun on
to a wall which is already illumined by the sun, spaces between
the vaious reflections are illumined by the sun alone.  And
if the reflections are not there, the wall still remains illumined.

(The body is already illumined by the Self, with good intellect,
is illumined by two lights and hence more.)

Verse 3:-  Similarly, both in the intervals between the
modfications of the intellect (Vrittis), in which is Chidbhasa
is relfeccted, and during their absence in deep sleep, Kutastha
abides self illumined and Kutastha is therefdore to be known as
different from Chidabhasa.

(Bhagavan has spoke about this trice of Supreme Consciousness.
He said, in the morning, as one wakes up, even before the
the first thought, I thought, springs forth, there is a small
fraction of a second, in which, the Consciousness shines.  I
have myself experienced this.  The intervals can be between
two states of waking, dream and sleep or between two thoughts
or modifications.)

Verse 4:-  An external object, such as a pot, is cognized through
the Vrittis, (modifications of the intellect) assuming its form,
but the knowledge "I know the pot" comes directly through
Pure Consciousness, Brahman.

(Read this verse very carefully.  There are two knowledges.
First, the knowledge of the pot and the second is the knowledge
of the knowledge of the pot.  The second is also called the
knowledge I know the pot.  The first knowledge removes any
ignorance about the pot.  This is the work of Vrittis.  That a thing
that was unknown to me up to the last moment, becomes known
to me the next moment, is due to my intellect assuming the Vriti
of the thing, here the pot.  When this work is done, the Vritti
subsides.  The Vritti being temporary, its work cannot but be
temporary.  So for the knowledge of the pot to be effective,
to be of use, must be deposited with something that is permanent,
so that it can be RECALLED,  when necessary or used any way

Verse 5:-  Before the rise of he Vritti, that is before the intellectual
operation my experience was "I" do not know that there is pot
over there.  After the rise, the experience  is "I know that thre
is a pot over there."  This is the difference, the intellectual operation
or Vritti brings about.  But both the above experiences of knowledge or non-knowledge of the pot are due to the Brahman.

(Since Brahman, is self revealing, it does not need a back up support.)

to be contd...

Arunachala Siva.                 

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (85)
« on: August 24, 2008, 12:28:45 PM »
The Chapter V continues....

Verse 5:-  Before the creation, there existed the Reality, one
only, without a second and without name and form.  That, 
it even now exists (after creation), is indicated by 'That'.

(This is 'Tattvamasi" from Chandogya Upanishad 6.8.15
in Sama Veda.  It means:  "You are That".  You are that Brahman,
which existed even before creation and is now and will exist
even after dissolution.)

Verse 6:- The principle of Consciousness which transcends
the body, senses, and mind of the enquirer is here denoted
by the word 'Thou'.  The word 'art' shows their identity.
That identity between Thou and That has to be experienced
through (self enquiry).

Verse 7:-  By pronouncing the word 'This", it is meant that
the Atman is self luminous and directly experienced.  That is
known as "Pratyagatman" which is the indwelling principle,
covering everything between egoity and the body. 

(This is "Ayamatma Brahman" in Maandukya Upanishad, 2
from Atharvana Veda. Pragyatma is also called Ayamatma,
the indwelling Atman, in Vedic texts.  To this egoity and
all other things are external.)

Verse 8:-  The essence of the entire visible universe is
denoted by the word Brahman.  That Brahmanis of the
nature of the self luminous Atman within. 


Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (84)
« on: August 24, 2008, 12:17:46 PM »
The V Chapter, called ' Mahavakya Vivka' - the fixing
the meaning of the Great Sayings, discuss the four great
sayings of Upanishads.  There are four such sayings and the
Chapter takes up all of them.

Verse 1:-  That by which a man sees, hears, smells and
speaks and distinguishes the sweet and bitter tasting etc.,
is called Consciousness.

(This verse discusses, "Prajnanam Brahman" from Aitreya
Upanishad 3.1.1. in Rig Veda.  Here, it says, Consciousness
is that which is responsible for sense-perception. When
these adjuncts are negated, Consciousness is Brahman.)

Verse 2:-  The one Consciousness which is in Brahma, (here the
god of creation and not Brahman), Indra and other gods, as
well as in human beings, horses, cows etc., is Brahman.
So, the Consciousness in me is Brahman.

(Aitreya Up. 3.1.3.)

Verse 3:- The infinite, supreme Self, remains manifested in
this world, as the witness of the functions in the body, fit
for Self-Knowledge and is desingnated as "I".

(This verse discusses, "Aham Brahmasmi". in Brahadaranyaka
Upanishad 1.4.10 in Yajur Veda.  It says, " I am Brahman".
When united with human intellect, Brahman can know Its
own nature.  The hypothesis of Aiovdya explains, the why
of creation.  Time is Its creation.  Cause is the sequence of
events and is in time.   Hence, to ask of the cause of Avidya
is illogical.  Also, refer Mundaka Upanishad 3.2.9)

Verse 4:-  By nature infinite, the Supreme Self is described
here by the word Brahman.  The word 'Asmi' (am) denotes
the identity of 'Aham' (I) and Brahman.  Therefore, "I am
Brahman" is the meaning of the text. 

(In Bible, it was told to Abraham,  "I AM".  It was not said
I am thinking I am !  Becuase "I" is beyond thinking!)

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.   


Dear Sankar and non duel, It take a shorter or a longer time,
depending upon the carry bag of 'vasanas'.  It took only an
instant for Bhagavan for He was an 'avatara' and there was
no 'probation' period for Him.  For others to may take more
time, sometimes even 96 years, as Chandogya Upanishad says
or many more births.

Arunachala Siva.     

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Re: Panchadasi - (83)
« on: August 24, 2008, 11:51:03 AM »
Dear Sankar, I have been giving some stories of Bhagavan's
life in my posts.  Today,  I have said about the 'halo' around
His head.  Yesterday, I wrote about lunar eclipse story.  Earlier,
I wrote about Rangan being presented with a sandal wood
walking stick by Bhagavan.  One more story, now for you.

Once a well read Nepali fuedal landlord came to see Bhagavan
with his servant, who was an illeterate.  When he arrived,
it was mid afternoon and Bhagavan was resting.  So, the landlord
prepared a large question sheet and rehearsing his answers and
was ready to confront Bhagavan.  He asked his servant to go and
check up whether Bhagavan has resumed His evening sitting,
after rest.  The servant went there and came back after sometime,
and told the landlord, ALL THE ANSWERS for his question paper,
and the landlord was dumbfounded.  He rushed to Bhagavan,
prostrated to Him and said that his servant was more lucky to
get the answers first.  Everyone laughed and then said, "Bhagavan
did not speak to your servant anything!  He simply looked intently
at the servant, when the latter cried and prostrated and went back.
This is the Power of the Silence and the Presence!  Bhagavan used
to say:  Silence in the uninterruped speech. (Maharshi's Gospel).

Arunachala Siva.       

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Re: Panchadasi - (82)
« on: August 24, 2008, 11:41:52 AM »
Dear non duel,  Thanks for the information.  I have not read
Divne Life Society's book.  Panchadasi is a standard advaitic
text, like Viveka Choodamani and there are many English
translations.  I have got a book from Sri Ramakrishna Math,
and the Math has got good translations of many such texts.
Going through the web, I have not tried.  Any book is okay,
but the RK Math's are the standard, for its faithful translation,
Sanskrit-English version, cross references from other books
and no printer's devils!

This reminds me a story of Sri Ramakrishna.  Someone asked
him, whether he had read Panchadasi.  The Guru Dev replied:
I do not know all these books. I do know only what my Mother
has told me!" (Gospel and Life and Teachings of SRK).

Arunachala Siva.


General topics / Re: Life-Death
« on: August 24, 2008, 11:33:35 AM »
Dear Sankar, Turn the mind or the ego inside.  The Guru outside
will push it inwards.  The Guru within, the Paramatman will pull
it from inside.

Arunachala Siva.

« on: August 24, 2008, 11:31:13 AM »
Dear Sankar, I have no quarrel and I agree with you.  Practice
should go on, to obtain the fruits of the scriptural books.  A
gram of practice is worth more than a tonne of reading and

Arunachala Siva.

General topics / Re: Samkhya (Sankhya) and Advaita
« on: August 24, 2008, 11:28:32 AM »
Dear who,  in Sankhya philosphy, there is a Purusha (the Supreme
Brahman, with attributes, saguna) and Prakriti, (jiva with three
gunas) and there are 24 other tattvas, principles, like five elements,
five senses etc.,  Sankhya said that Prakriti should join the Purusha
in the heavens, after death.  Advaita said that Prakriti should
merge in Brahman in life or at the time of death, and there is no
question of 'joining' or 'heavens'.  Kapila is said to have coded
the Sankhya philosophy.  Sankhya sometimes also refers to the

Arunachala Siva.       

« on: August 24, 2008, 11:24:09 AM »
Dear Sankar and Raju,  Both the Buddha and Bhagavan attained
self-realization.  But there are differences.  First, Bhagavan attained
the Self Realization in Madurai house itself.  He is a Jivan Mukta,
from that time.  He did not become a Jivan Mukta, after he came
to Tiuvannamalai.  Buddha, became enlightene, after facing the
demons and difficulties, and after that only he became self realized.
They say, Buddha became enlightened at the age of 80, whereas
in Bhagavan's case iit was in His 16th year.  Second,  Bhagavan had
difficulties for food, codpiece, etc., and had some opposistion from the bogus  sadhus in the Hill.  He did not have any problem with demons or

An interesting story in this context.  A yogi, who could visualise
the 'halo' around Jnanis, came to Bhagavan and said:  The Buddha's
halo was around 800 metres long on both sides of his head.  Sri
Aurobindo had it for about 200 metres, but Bhagavan had a 'halo'
which stretched miles and miles on both sides.  Bhagavan said to
him:  Why are you bothered about other Jnanis' 'halo'.  Try to
measure your 'halo'!

Arunachala Siva.     

My dear non duel, Yes.  Thoughts are the barrier.  As in the
pole-vault game, one has to keep the one long stick of Who am I?
and jump over the other thoughts, the horizontal stick!  Upanishads
say that the Brahman, the Self, is beyond the Vedic words, which
are unclean with saliva, because of mouthing the scriptures!

Arunachala Siva.