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Messages - Subramanian.R

General Discussion / Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
« on: August 22, 2008, 02:28:06 PM »
Dear Raju and srkudai,  all this drama occurs because of chit-jada
granthi, the self-body complex.  When we say, mano-nasa, it is
not 'killing the mind', because 'mind' has not got any 'physical
entity' for killing.  It is 'leaving' the mind, or resolving the mind,
once for all and staying in the Self.  Whenever we think of
something, while watching a TV story or a cinema,  and in the process, miss a scene in TV or cinema, we say that 'mind has gone somewhere.
In other words, mind has left the scene.  Again, Raju, it is only
with the mind, the mind can be 'killed ' or left for good.
As Bhagavan says, it is like a stick that is used to stir the funeral
pyre, and after the work is over, the stick is also burnt on the pyre.
(Who am I?).

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (57)
« on: August 22, 2008, 02:13:04 PM »
The Chapter II continues....

Verse 19:- "Before all this was created there was Being alone,
one only, without a second.  So, there was neither name nor
form," said Uttalaka Aruni.  (Chandogya Up. 6.2 and 6.3.2-3)

Verse 20:-  Differences are of three kinds; The difference of
a tree from its leaves, flowers, fruits etc., is the difference
within an object.  The difference of one tree from another tree
is the difference between objects of the same class.  The differences
of a tree from a stone is the difference between objects of
different classes. 

Verse 22:-  One cannot doubt that Brahman, the One and only
reality, has no parts, for Its parts cannot be conceived of.  Names
and forms cannot be Its parts, for before creation, they did not arise.

Verse 23:-  As creation means the appearance of names and
forms, they cannot be before creation.  Therefore, like the
Space, Brahman is partless and also there is no difference within It.

Verse 24:-  The difference between objects of the same class
can have no reference to Sat, for noting else exists.  One object
differs from another on account of its name and form, whereas
Brahman is absolutely without name and form.

Verse 25:-  And about non existence; we cannot say that it exists.
So, it cannot serve a 'pratiyogin', that is, total characteristic
that is lacking in another thing.  If so, how can there be 'vijatiya'
difference, that is one's own internal contradiction, like a square-
circle.  Hence Atman and Brahman cannot have vijatiya difference.

Verse 26:- So, it is established that Sat is one only without a second.
But thre are still some who get confused by texts that 'Asat'
- nothing, existed before creation.

('Asat' or 'nothing' or 'sunya' cannot exist before creation, because
there was no time as before creation, because Brahman, is ever
present beyond time and present.  This 'sunya vadha' is from
Madhyamika school of Buddhism.)

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.         

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (56)
« on: August 22, 2008, 01:22:50 PM »
The Chapter II, is called Mahabhootha Viveka, or the Differentiation
of Five Elements.  I am giving only select verses.

Verse 1:-  Brhaman according to Sruti, the non dual reality,
can be known by the process of differntiation from the five
elements.  So the process is now being discussed in detail.

Verse 7:- The five senses successively functioning through the
external apparatus, the gross organs, the eyes, the ears etc.,
are subtle.  Their presence is to be inferred from their functions.
The often move outwards.

Verse 12:-  The mind, the ruler of the ten organs of sense and
action, is within the lotus of the Heart.  As it depends on the organs
of sense and action, for the functions in relation to the external
objects, it is called an internal organ, the anthakarana.

Verse 13:- The mind enquires into the merits and defects of
the objects which are perceived by the senses.  Sattva, rajas
and tamas are its three constituents for through them the mind
undergoes various modficiations.

Verse 14:- Non attachment, forgiveness, generosity etc., are
producs of sattva.  Anger, desires, avarice, effort etc.,  are
produced by rajas.

Verse 15:-  Lethargy, confusion, drowsiness etc., are the products
of tamas.  When sattva functions in the mind, merit is acquired.
When rajas functions demerit is acquired.

Verse 16:-  When tamas functions, neither merit nor demerit
is produced. But life is wasted for nothing.  Of the modfications
of the mind, that of I-Consciousness is the agent.  In the practical
world also, we do the same.

Verse 17:-  Is is quite evident  that the objects in which sound,
touch etc., are clearly discernible are the products of five elements.
With the help of scriptural texts and reasoning it can be conceived
that even for the senses and the mind, the subtle elements
are the basis.

Verse 18:-  Whatever of this world, is perceived, by the senses,
the organs of action, the mind, reasoning and the scriptural texts,
is referred to as 'this', 'idam' in the Sruti text, as follows.
(Idam, this, applied even to the past things is not wrong since
they are felt to be in the present by God or a sage, like Uttalaka
Aruni)  (Refer also Srimad Bhagavad Gita VII. 26).

to be contd...   

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (55)
« on: August 22, 2008, 12:49:49 PM »
The I chapter continues....

Verse 62:-  Then, the great dictum, freed from the obstacles
of doubts and ambiguity, gives rise to a direct realization of the
Truth, as a fruit in one's palm, Truth, which earlier comprehended

Verse 63:-  The knowledge of Brahman obtained indirectly
from the Guru, teaching, the meaning of the great dictum,
burns up like fire all sins, committed upto that attainment
of knowledge.

Verse 64:-  The direct realization of the knowledge of the
Self obtained from the Guru's teaching of the great dictum,
is like the scorching sun, that dispels the very darkness
of Avidya, the root of all transmigratory existence.

Verse 65:-  Thus a man distinguishes the Self from the five
sheaths, concentrates the mind on It according to the
scriptural injunctions, becomes free from the bonds of
repeated births and deaths and immeidately attains the
Supreme Bliss.


Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (54)
« on: August 22, 2008, 12:43:54 PM »
The Chapter I continues....

Verse 57:-  The mind continues to be fixed in Paramatman
in the state of samadhi as a result of the effect of will, made
prior to its achievement and helped by the merits of previous
births and the strong impressions created through constant
efforts at getting into samadhi.

Verse 58:-  The same idea Sri Krishna, pointed out to Arjuna
in various ways, e.g. when he compares the steady mind to the
flame of a map in in breezless spot.  (Srimad Bhagavad Gita 6.19).

Verse 59:-  \as a result of this nirvikalpa samadhi, millions of
results of actions accumulated in this beginningless world over
past and present births, are destroyed and pure "dharana".
a state helpful to the realization of Truth, grows.

Verse 60:-  The experts in Yoga, call this as a rain cloud of dharmas,
because it pours forth countless showers of the bliss of dharma.

(That is, a Brhamjnani's state, as that of Bhagavan's state,
is a rain cloud, and it showers bliss of dharma on the devotees
and seekers.)

Verse 61:-  The entire network of desires is fully destroyed
and the accumulated  actions known as merits and demerits
are fully routed out by this samadhi.

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (53)
« on: August 22, 2008, 12:32:08 PM »
The Chapter I continues....

Verse 51:-  The same logical fallacies may be shown in any
object having substance, species, quality, action or relationship.
So accept all these attributes as existing by the nature of things.

Verse 52:- The Self is untouched by doubts about the presence
or absence of associates, cannotations and other adventitious
relationships because they are superimposed on it phenomenally.

Verse 53:-  The finding out of the true significance of the
identity of the individual self and the Supreme, with the aid
of great sayings like Thou Art That, is what is known as
'sravana' - hearing. And to arrive at the possibility of its
validity through logical reasoning is called, memorizing and
thinking and finding logical support. 

Verse 54:-  And, when by sravana and manana, the mind
develops a fiirm and undoubted conviction, and dwells constantly
on the thus ascertained Self alone, it is called unbroken
meditation, nidhidhyasana. 

Verse 56:- When the mind gradually leaves off the ideas of
the meditation and the act of meditating and is merged on the
sole object of meditation, viz., the Self, and is steady like a
flame of a lamp in a breezless place, it is called Samadhi,
or superconscious state.

Verse 57:- Though in samadhi, there is not subjective cognition,
of the mental function, having the Self as its object, its
continued existence in that state is inferred from the recollection
after coming out of samadhi.

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (52)
« on: August 22, 2008, 12:19:33 PM »
The Chapter I continues....

Verse 44:- Brahman becomes the material and efficient
cause of the world when associated with those aspects of
Maya, in which there is a predomination of tamas and sattva
respectively.  This Brahman is referred to as "That" in the
text, Thou Art That.

Verse 45:- When the Supreme Brahman, superimposes on
Itself, Avidya, that is, sattva mixed with rajas and tamas,
creating desires and activities in It, then it is referred to as
"Thou" in the text, Thou Art That.

Verse 46:- When the three mutually contradictory aspects
of Maya are rejected, the remains the one indivisible Brahman
whose nature is Existence-Knowledge and Bliss.  This is pointed
out in the great saying:  Thou Art That.

Verse 47:-  In the sentence 'This is that Devadatta', this and
that refer to different time, place and circumstances.  When
the particular connections of this and that are rejected, Devadatta
remains as their common basis.

(Please refer my description of Jahat-ajahat lakshana, in
Viveka Choodamani.)

Verse 48:- Similarly, when the adjuncts, Maya and Avidya,
the conflicting cannotations in the proposition Thou Art That,
of Brahman and Jiva are negated, there remains the indivisible
Supreme Brahman, whose nature is existence, knowledge and

Verse 49:- (Objection): If the denoted object of Thou Art
That, that is, Brahman, is with attributes, then it becomes
unreal.  Secondly, an object without attributes is neither seen
nor is possible to conceive. 

Verse 50:-  (Reply):  Does the objection you have raised
relate to Brahman without attributes or with attributes?
In the first, you are caught in your own trap.  If the second,
it involves logical fallacies of infinite regress, resting on
oneself etc.,

(If you say, Brahman with attributes, you are caugt in your
own trap, because, then, you have to accept the Brahman
without attributes.  If this is Brahman without attributes, if
you say, 'it is not seen or conceived,' then, you have to accept
Brahman with attributes, hence this logic is infinite regress,
that is infinite looping like we see sometimes in computer, where
the same set of frames are shown endlessly repeating.  It is
like asking, which came first, the egg or the hen?)

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (51)
« on: August 22, 2008, 11:59:41 AM »
The Chapter I continues...

Verse 38:- The physical body present in one's consciousnes,
is absent in the dreaming state, but the witnessing element,
Pure Consciousness, persists in both the waking and dreaming
states.   This is the invariable presence, Anvaya, of the Self.
Though the Self is perceived, the physical body is not;
so the latter is not a variable factor.

Verse 39:- Similarly, in the state of deep sleep, the subtle
body is not perceived, but the Self invariably witnesses
that state.  While the Self persists, in all states, the subtle
body is not perceived in deep sleep and so it is called a
variable factor.

Verse 40:-  By discrimination of the subtle body and recognition
of its variable, transient character, the sheaths are understood
to be different from the Self, for the sheaths are conditions of the
three gunas, - characteristics, - and differ from each other.

Verse 41:- Avidya, manifested as the causal body or blissful
sheath, is negated in the state of deep meditation, in which
neither subject nor object is experienced, but the Self persists
in that state.  So it is the invariable factor.  But the causal body
is a variable factor, for though the Self persists, it does not.

Verse 42:- As the slender, internal pith of a munja gross
can be detached from its coarse external covering, so the
Self can be distinugished through reasoning from the
three bodie, or the five sheaths.  Then the Self is recognized
as the Supreme Consciousness.

Verse 43:-  In this way, the identity of Brahman and Jiva
is demonstrated through reaosoning.  This identity is taught
in the sacred texts in sentences such as "Thou Art That."
Their method of explaining the Truth is through the elimination
of incongruous attributes.

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.     

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (50)
« on: August 22, 2008, 11:43:18 AM »
The Chapter I continues...

Verse 26:-  To provide the Jivas, with objects of enjoyment
and make the bodies fit for such enjoyment, the all powerful
Isvara has made each of the subtle elements partake of the
nature of the others.

Verse 29:-  They are only external things and are devoid
of the knowledge of their true inner nature. They perform
actions for enjoyment and again they enjoy for performing

Verse 30:- They go from birth to birth, as worms that have
slipped into a river are swept from one whirlpool to another
and never attain peace.

Verse 31:- When the good deeds performed by them in the
past births bear fruit, the worms enjoy being lifted from the
river by a compassionate person and placed under the shade
of a tree on the bank.

Verse 32:-  Similarly, the Jivas, finding themselves in  the
whirlpool of worldly duties, receive the appropriate initiation
from a teacher who himself has realized Brahman, and
differentiating the Self from its five sheaths, attain the Supreme
Bliss of release.

Verse 33:-  The five sheaths of the Self are those of the food,
the vital air, the mind, the intellect and bliss.  Enveloped in them,
it forgets its real nature and becomes subject to transmigration.

Verse 37:- By differentiating the Self, from the five sheaths
throught the method of discrimination, between the variable and
the invariable, one who draws out one's own Self, from the five
sheaths and attain Supreme Brahman.

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (49)
« on: August 22, 2008, 11:31:43 AM »
The Chapter I continues.....

Verse 15:-  Prakrti (that is, the primordial substance) is that
in which, there is the reflection of Brahman, that is Pure
Consciousness and Bliss and is composed of Sattva, Rajas,
and Tamas (in a state of homoeneity).  It is of two kinds.

Verse 16:- When the element of sattva is pure, Prakrti is
known as Maya.  When impure (being mixed up with rajas
and tamas), it is called Avidya.  Brahman, reflected in Maya,
is known as omniscient Isvara, who controls Maya.

Verse 17:- But the other (that is Jiva, which is Brahman
reflected in Avidya) is subjected to Avidya, impure Sattva.
This Jiva is of different grades due to degrees of admixture
of rajas and tamas.  The Avidya, the nescience, is the causal
body.  When the Jiva identifies himself with this causal body,
he is called Prajna.

Verse 18:- At the command of Isvara and for the experience
of Prajna, the five subtle elements, ether, air, fire, water
and earth, arose from the part of Prakrti in which tamas

Verse 19:- From the sattva part of the five subtle elements
of Prakrti arose in turn the five subtle sensory organs of hearing,
touch, sight, taste, and smell.

Verse 20:- From a combination of them all, that is sattva
portion of the five subtle elements, arose the organ of inner
conception called antakharana.  Due to difference of function,
it is divided into two.  Manas (mind) is that aspect whose function
is doubting and buddhi (intellect) is sthat whose functions are
discrimination and determination. 

Verse 21:- From the rajas portion of the five elements, arose
in turn the organs of action known as the organ of speech,
the hands, the feet, the organs of excretion and procreation.

Verse 22:- From a combination of them of them all, arose
the vital air, prana.  Again, due to difference of functions
it is divided into five.  They are prana, apana, samana, utana
and vyana.

Verse 23:-  The five sensory organs, the five organs of action,
the five vital airs, mind and intellect, all the seventeen together
form the subtle body, which is called Sukshma or linga sarira.

Verse 24:-  By identifying himself with the subtle boyd and
thinking it to be his own, Prajna becomes known as Taijasa,
and Isvara as Hiranyagarbha.  Their difference is sthe one
betwen the individual and collective, (that is, one is identified
with a single subtle body and the otehr with totality of subtle

Verse 25:- Isvara, as Hiranyagarbha, is called 'totality' because
of his sense of idenification with all the subtle bodes of the
universe.  The other, the Taijasa, is called the 'individual'
because it lacks this knowledge and is conscious only of his
self, being identified with his own subtle body only.     

to be contd...

Arunachala Siva.       

General Discussion / Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
« on: August 22, 2008, 11:05:51 AM »
Dear srkudai and Raju,  In the movie example, the movie is the
Jagat and not I.  By seeing the character in the movie as 'I', you
are acting by superimpsing yourself in you.  The Watcher is the
Self.  When the watcher stops seeing the movie, the movie does
not stop.  Here the world does not stop.  But for whom?  For
others.  So far, you are concerned, the continuation of movie
is as good as its stopping, becuase, you are not seeing,  At night,
when you are sleeping, the world is not there for you.  But for
a mechanic doing night shift in the office, the world is.  Bhagavan's
reference is always towards the 'seeker' and all the upadesa is
for the seeker.  Hence, He does not bother, whether the world
is there for others , but only says that the world is not there for you.

Hence, I still believe that the thoughtless state is a self realized
state.  If a Jnani does work, he does so, as I told earier, with the
Suddha manas, a Pure Mind, which is like a burnt rope.  In other
words, things around a Jnani happen because of his Sannidhya,
the power of the presence.

All of us can discuss this thing further, for more light to the topic.

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (48)
« on: August 21, 2008, 07:24:46 PM »
The Chapter I continues....

Verse 8:- This consciousness, which is our Self, is of the nature
Supreme Bliis, for it is the object of greatest love, and love for
the Self is seen in every man, who wishes, 'May I never cease
to be',  'May I exist for ever'.

Verse 9:- Others are loved for the sake of the Self, but the Self
is loved for none other.  Therefore, the love for the Self is the
highest.  Hence the Self is of the nature of the highest bliss.

Verse 10:- In this way, it is established by reasoning that the
individual Self is of the nature of existence, consciousness and
bliss.  Similar is the Supreme Brahman.  The indentity of the two is
taught in the Upanishads.

Verse 11:- If the Supreme Bliss of the Self is not known, there
cannot be the highest love for it.  But it is there.  If it is known,
there cannot be attraction, for worldly objects.  That too is here.
So, we say, this blissful nature of the Self, through revealed, is
not, strictly speaking, revealed.

Verse 12:-  A father may distinguish the voice of his son chanting
(the Vedas) in chorus with a number of pupils but may fall to note
the peculiarities, due to an obstruction viz., its having been mingled
with other voices.  Similar is the case with bliss. Because of obstruction,
it is proper to say the bliss 'is known yet unknown.'

Verse 13:-  Our experience of the articles of everyday use, is
that they 'exist', they 'reveal'.  Now an obstruction is sthat which
stultifies this experience of existence and revelation and produces
the counter-experience that they are not existing, they are not

Verse 14:-  In the above, illustrated the cause of the obstruction
to the voice of the son being fully recognized is the chorus of
voices of all the boys.  Here, the one cause of all contrary experience
is indeed, the beginningless Avidya.

to be contd..

Arunachala Siva.         

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (47)
« on: August 21, 2008, 05:52:54 PM »
The first chapter, called as Tattva Viveka, or The differntiation
of the Real Principle, works out the elimination of non-Self
items, and the details are mostly known to the Forum members.
Hence, I am only mentioning some select verses.

Verse 3:-  The objects of knowledge, Jnana Indriyas, like the
sound, touch, taste etc., which are perceived in the waking
state are different from each other, but consciousness of these
which is different from this does not differ because of its

Verse 4:- Similar is the case in the dream state. Here the
perceived objects are transient and in the waking state,
they seem permanent.  So there are difference between them
But the consciousness in both the states does not differ.
It is homogeneous.

Verse 5:-  A person awaking from deep sleep consciously
remembers his lack of perception during that state.
Remembrance consists of objects experienced earlier. It
is therefore clear that even in deep sleep, 'want of knowledge
is perceived.

Verse 6:-  This consicousness (in the deep sleep state) is
indeed distinct, from the object (here, it is ignorance), but
not from itself, as is the consciousness in the state of dream.
Thus in all the three states, the consciousness, being homogeneous
is the same.  It is so, in other days too.

Verse 7:- Through the many months,years,ages and world cycles,
past and future, consciousness is the same.  It neither rises,
nor sets, unlike the Sun.  It is self-revealing.

to be contd...

Arunachala Siva.

General Discussion / Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
« on: August 21, 2008, 05:31:41 PM »
Dear srkudai,  Yesterday, I mentioned "thoughtless state is
self realization" and you had a different view.

Again,  I am quoting from Who am I?  Please read this, and
tell me, whether 'thoughtless state is self realization".

Under Question 16, Bhagavan says:  The Self is that where there
is absolutely no "I" thought.  This is called, 'Silence'.  The Self
itself is the world, the Self itself is "I".  The Self itself is God.
All is Siva, the Self.

(Here Bhagavan mentioned "I" thought, because "I" thought
is the root of all thoughts).

Again under Question 25, Bhagavan says:  "Remaining quiet is
what is called Wisdom-insight.  To remain quiet is to resolve the
mind in the Self......"

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Re: Panchadasi - (28)
« on: August 21, 2008, 05:23:06 PM »
Dear srkudai, since you showed a special liking for this chapter
on meditation, I took it up after Chitra deepa and Trupti Deepa.

Arunachala Siva.