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Messages - Subramanian.R

General topics / Re: Life-Death
« on: August 23, 2008, 11:43:10 AM »
Dear Sankar,  I am telling you too.  Do not get into whirlpool
of words.  Sastra vasana will not take us anywhere.  Be still
and the Awareness shines.

Arunachala Siva.

General topics / Re: Life-Death
« on: August 23, 2008, 11:41:13 AM »
Dear Raju,  Kindly do not get into the deluge of words.  We are all,
as srkudai said, ever the Awareness.  But, what is obstructing is
the ego.  Bhagavan says, "Leave the mind, the Awareness shines."
See His words.  He did not say, "Awareness will appear', but said
'Awareness shines".  The Awareness is ever present,  as

Arunachala Siva.

General topics / Re: Life-Death
« on: August 22, 2008, 06:33:06 PM »
Dear Raju, Yes, the Self can be realized while being alive.  Such
people are Jivan Muktas. eg. Bhagavan.  Some others realize
during the last moments of death and then there is  the fall of the body.
They are Videha Muktas.  While Jivan muktas can give teaching
to the unillumined, the Videha muktas can do nothing of that sort.
That way, they are very 'selfish'.

Arunachala Siva. 

Dear srkudai and Raju, Both are complientary and do not
contradict each other.  But to think surrender is easier than
self-enquriy is not correct.

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (67)
« on: August 22, 2008, 06:20:23 PM »
The Chapter II continues....

Verse 106:-  A realized soul is not affected by delusion and it
is the same whether he dies healthy or in illness, sitting in
meditation or rolling on the ground, conscious or unconscious.

Verse 107:-  The knowledge of the Vedas, acqured during the
waking conditon, is daily forgotten during dream and sleep,
but it returns on the morrow.  Similar is the case with the
knowledge of Brahman. 

Verse 108:-  The knowledge of Brahman, based on the evidence
of the Vedas, is not destroyed unless proved invalid by some
stronger evidence.  But in fact, there is no stronger evidence
than the Vedas. 

(Prasna Up.  6.3)

Verse 109:-  Therefore the knowledge of the nondual Reality,
thus, established by the Vedanta is not falisfied even at the last
moment, whatever interpretation be taken.  So, the discrimination
of the elements from the Brahman, the non dual reality, surely
ensures peace abiding or bliss ineffable.  This is the Peace
that passeth understanding.


Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (66)
« on: August 22, 2008, 06:12:00 PM »
The Chapter II continues....

Verse 97:- If we abstract from the cosmos the Existence, which
underlies it, all the world and all objects are reduced to a mere
illusory appearnce. What does it matter even if they continue
to appear.

Verse 98:-  When a deep impression has been creatd in the
mind about the elements and their derivatives and Maya being
of the same category, viz., non existence, the understanding
of non duality of the Real Entity, as Nondual, will never
be subverted.

Verse 99:-  When the Reality has been comprehended as
Non dual Brahman and the world of duality has been differentiated,
their pragmatic action, however, will continue as before.

Verse 102:-  When the intellect disregards the notions of duality,
it becomes firmly established in the conception of non duality.
The man who is firmly established in the conviction of non duality
is called a Jivan mukta, a liberated in life.

Verse 103:- Sri Krishna say in the Gita:- This is called as
having one's being in Brahman. O Arjuna, None attaining this,
will be deluded.  Being established therein, even at the last
moment, a man attains oneness with Brahman.  (Gita 2.72.
This is called Videha mukti, liberation at time of fall of the body.)

Verse 104:- "At the last moment" also means the moment at
which the mutual identification of the illusory duality and the
the one secondless reality, is annhilated by differentiating from
each other, and nothing else.

Verse 105:-  In common parlance, the expression 'at the last
moment' may mean at the last moment of life.  Even at that
time, the illusion that is gone does not return and there is no

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (65)
« on: August 22, 2008, 05:58:33 PM »
The chapter II continues....

Verse 78:-  The real entity (Brahman) is all pervasive.  The
range of Maya is limited.  That of akasa is more limited. And
that of air, water etc., yet more so limited.

Verse 79:-  The following are the properties, air is known
to possess.: ability to absorb moisture, percetibility to the
sense of touch, speed and motion.  Existence and the properties
of Maya and akasa are also found in air.

Verse 80:- When we say, air exists, we mean that it does so
by virtue of the universal principle of existence. If the idea
of existence is abstracted from air, what is left is the nature
of Maya, that is a non-entity.  The property of sound that is
found in the air is that of akasa.

Verse 86:-  What is real in air is Brahman, Sat. Other particles
are unreal as akasa.  Having made a deep impression in your
mind, about the unreality of air, by reason and meditation,
give up the false notion about the reality of air.

Verse 87:-  In the same way, we can think of ire, which has
a more limted range than air.  A similar consideration will
point to the relative existence of the other elements like
water, earth which envelop the universe.

Verse 96:-  The cosmos contains the fourteeen worlds and all
the living beings suited to each world.

(The cosmos is Brhamanda, as per Hindu thought, and it consists
of 14 worlds, Bhuh, Bhuvah, Svah, Mahat, Janah, Tapah, Satya,
or Bramhaloka, and Atala, Vitala, Sutala, Talatala, Rasatala,
Mahatala, Patala, in the upper and lower directions of the world).

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.     

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (64)
« on: August 22, 2008, 05:41:53 PM »
The Chapter II continues....

Verse 71:-  As there is a difference between a class, and a
member of a class, a living man and his body, and the possessor
of an attribute and the attribute, so there is a distinction between
existence (Brahman) and akasa,  What is there to wonder at?

Verse 72:-  If you say, that granting intellectually that there is
a distinction between askasa and Brahman, yet in practice,
one does not feel convinced of it, we ask, is such a absurd
conclusion due to lack of concentration or tenacious doubt?

Verse 73:- If the first, be attentive by fixing the mind through
meditation.  If the other, then study the matter carefully with
the help of reasoning and evidence.  Then the conviction of
the truth of the distinction between Brahman and akasa
will be firm.

Verse 74:-  By means of profound meditation, evidence and
logical reasoning,  Brahman and akasa can be known to be
different from one another.  The akasa will not appear as
real nor having the property of space giving.

Verse 75:-  To a knower,  akasa, always shows its illusoriness,
an Brahman also always shines unassociated with its properties.

Verse 76:- When one's impressions about the true nature of
Sat and akasa, are thus quite deepened, by constant reasoning
and meditation, one is amazed to see a person attributing
reality to akasa, and suffering from ignorance about the reality
beiong pure existence void of all attributes.

Verse 77:-  Thus when the unreality of akasa and the reality
of Brahman are firmly established in the mind, one should
follow the same method and differentiate Brahman, whose
nature is pure existence, from air, water, fire, and earth.

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva. 

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (63)
« on: August 22, 2008, 05:19:34 PM »
The chaper II coninues....

Verse 65:-  It is common knowledge that correct understanding
makes a thing appear as it is, in itself, and illusion makes it
appear differently.

Verse 66:-  A thing appears to be quite different after a thorough
discussions of the Vedic passage concerned, from what is appeared
before such a discussion.  So let us now discuss the nature of

Verse  67:- Brahman and akasa are different entities.   Their
names are different, and the ideas conveyed by their names
are too different.  Brahman pervades air and other objects.
Such is not the case with akasa.  This is what we know to be
the difference.

Verse 68:-  The entity, Sat being more pervading is the locus
or substance.   And akasa, being less pervading a content,
or an attribute. When by the excercise of reason or intellect,
Sat is separated from akasa, tell me what the nature of akasa,
is, it is reduced to nothing.

Verse 69:-  If you hold that when existence is abstracted from
it, akasa will still remain as space, then we should say that it
is regarded as 'nothing'. If you say:  It is different from Asat
as well as Sat, for you do not  admit anything which is different
from both, which we of course hold.

Verse 70:-  If you argue that akasa is evident, then we reply,
let it be, it is to the credit of the powers of Maya.  The appearance
of an object which in fact non existent, is an illusion, mithya,
which is again the power of Maya, just as the elephant seen
in a dream!

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.       

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (62)
« on: August 22, 2008, 05:01:29 PM »
The Chapter II continues...

Verse 58:-  Sruti, the wellwisher of the questioner, being
asked whether Maya pervades the whole or part of Brahman,
speaks of the partless as having parts in order to explain the
non dual nature of Brahman, by giving illustrations.

Verse 59:- With Brahman, as its basis, Maya created  the
various objects of the world, just as a variety of pictures
are drawn on a wall by the use of different colours.

Verse 60:- The first modification of May is Akasa, the Space.
Its nature is space that is, it gives room to things to exist and
expand.  Akasa, derives its existence from Brahman, its

Verse 61:-  The nature of Brahman is existence only.  Brahman
is spaceless, but Akasa, has both space and existence as its nature.

Verse 62:- Akasa also has the property of conveying and
communicating sound, which Brahman, does not have. Thus
Akasa, has two properties, sound and existene, whereas Brahman
has only one - existence.

Verse 63:-  The same Sakti, the power, that is Maya, which has
conjured up akasa, in the real entity, Sat or Existence, has also
produced the differences between them, as of substance and
property, in the reverse way, after having shown their identity.

Verse 64:-  It is Sat, which appears as akasa, but ordinary
people, and the logicians say that existence is a property of
akasa.  This is only to be expected, because Maya is a conjurer!

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (61)
« on: August 22, 2008, 04:34:14 PM »
The Chapter II continues.....

Verse 52:- If it is argued that increase in one's power lead
to the prolongation of his life, we counter it by saying that
the prolongation is not the result of power but the effects
thereof, such as war, agriculture etc.,

Verse 53:- Power is now here considered to be independent
of its substratum.  Before creation, no effects of power
existed.  What grounds are there for assuming a duality?

Verse 54:-  Power does not operate in the whole of Brahman,
but only in a part of it.  Earth's power of producing pots is
not seen in all earth, but in a portion of earth viz., mud or clay,
that is mixed with water.

Verse 55:-  The Sruti says:  "Creation is only a quarter of Brahman,
the other three quarters are self-revealing, that is, not dependent
on Maya's effects for its revelation.  Thus does the Sruti say, "Maya
covers but a part of Brahman".

(Purusha Sukta 3;  Chandogya Up. 3.12.5.  Brahman is no doubt
partless, but Its parts have been hypothetically taken to show
the littleness of creation.)

Verse 56:- In the Gita, Sri Krishna says to Arjuna:  "The world is
sustained by a part of Mine," indicating is sustained by a part
of the Lord.  (Gita 10.42)

Verse 57:- The Sruti supports the same view, "The Supreme
Spirit, pervading the world on every side, yet extends ten
fingers beyond it."  In the Sutras too, Brahman is declared
to transcend the world of differences.

(Literally, the ten fingers; realistically, that Brahman is beyond
space. It may also mean ten directions.  Svetasvatara Up. 3.14;
Brahma Sutras 4.4.19.  Sri Sankara, apart from 8 major upanishads,
has also written a commentary on Svetasvatara Upanishad, because
of its advaitic content.)

to be continued......

Arunachala Siva.

General Discussion / Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
« on: August 22, 2008, 04:03:41 PM »
Dear Raju, in spiritual game, every one is a winner, because
everyone gets gold medal, that is Light.  There is no silver and
bronze here.

Dear srkduai, the when the person who is an audience in the
movie, becomes the Witness, it does not matter, whether the
play stops or not.  If by inter galactic wars, all the universe
perishes, even then Brahman is a Witness, though the 'play'
has stopped.  At that time, the 'maha-maya' curls up into the
Brahman.  Or Sakti is united with Siva, till the next play starts,
for her to do her mischief.

Arunachala Siva.

General Discussion / Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
« on: August 22, 2008, 03:54:39 PM »
Dear srkudai,  You said it.  In retrospect, I think, Bhagavan
said this "Suddha manas" concept for two reasons.  One is
to clarify the doubt of the seekers, as how can Bhagavan do
all the work in this world,  without mind.  Second, many of us are damn afraid of mano-nasa, thinking that we would then go mad!  Bhagavan
said:  All right, do not be afraid, have a Suddha manas.  This reminds
me of a story in management.  A person had a monkey, hung
permanently around his neck and the knot was so tight that
no one could untie it.  One doctor said:  All right, I shall sedate
you, so that the monkey will not trouble you and he was put
on sedation.  Another came and said:  No I shall not sedate you,
I shall sedate the monkey, and the monkey was sedated so that
it could not trouble that man.  After sometime, nothing worked.
Then one another doctor came and said:  It is simple, I shall
untie the knot;  he untied it, with some difficulty and both the
man and the monkey became peaceful.  After some time,
the man came again!  I am so much used to monkey and now I am
not able to live without the monkey!  Then the doctor said:
All right, I shall paint a monkey on your chest!  You can always
"feel"  that the monkey is ever with you.  He did the painting,
and the man became peaceful without any further problem.
The painted monkey, is perhaps, the Suddha manas!

Arunachala Siva.

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (60)
« on: August 22, 2008, 03:42:52 PM »
The Chapter II continues....

Verse 47:-  As the power to burn exists in fire, the power
of Maya, which has not existence independent of Brahman,
and which is inferred by the effect only, exists in Brahman.
Before the effect appears, the power behind the effect is not
directly experienced by anyone anywhere.

Verse 48:-  The power of a substance is not the substance
itself, as for instance, the power to burn is not the fire itself.
Similarly, Maya which is the power of Brahman, is not Brahman.
If Power is something other than Brahman, then define its

Verse 49:-  If you say the nature of Maya is 'nothingness',
then you contradcit yourself in as much as you said that
'nothing' is the effect of Maya.  And as we have said, an
effect of a thing cannot be its nature, an effect being posterior
to the thing.  So you will have to admit that Maya, is neither
'sunya' nor Sat.  But it is, as it is, something undefinable
by either term.

Verse 50:- This peculiar nature of Maya is corroborated by
the Vedic text* which purports there was neither non existence,
nor existence then, (that is before creation), but there was
darkness, (Maya), is due to its association with existence, not
by virtue of itself, in as much as, existence is denied to it.

(Nasadiya Sukta in Rig Veda, 10.129.1 or;
 Satapatha  Brahmana;
 Taitriya Upanishad; )

* The Vedic text alluded here is the famous: " Tama asit
tamasa gudhamagre", that is before creation there was
darkness Brahman, covered by darkenss (Maya).  The first
'tamas' is not the same as the second 'tamas', that is
'tamasa', for a thing cannot be covered by itself. As before
creation, there was nothing else except Brahman and its
power Maya, but the opponents would interpret it as above.
And that is why, "Tamaso ma jyotir gamaya" means "from
darkness of Brahman-Maya, lead us to "Brahman, the effulgent."

Verse 51:-  Hence like nothingness, Maya also cannot be a
distinct entity in Its own right.  In the world too, an able
man and his ability to do great feats, are not considered
two but one.

to be contd.....

Arunachala Siva.   

Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (59)
« on: August 22, 2008, 03:20:39 PM »
The Chapter II continues....

Verse 35:-  If you affirm that name and form attributed to an
existing thing are both cretions of Maya, an illusory principle,
then tell us what is the substratum upon which Maya creates
names and forms.  For illusion also, without a substratum,
is never seen.

Verse 37:-  We all use the expressions:  'What has to be done
has been done', 'speech is spoken', 'a burden is borne'.  The
Vedic text 'Existence was' is meant only for those whose minds
are accustomed to such expressions. 

Verse 39:-  Objections are raised and answers are given only
from the point of duality.  From the standpoint of pure non
duality, neither questions nor answers are possible.

Verse 40:-  What remains after dissolution is an unmoving and
ungraspable, unnamed and un-namable, unmanifest, indefinite
something, beyond light and darkness and all pervadiing.

(Yoga Vasishta)

Verse 44:-  Brahman the pure existence without any reference
to the world, can be experienced without an iota of doubt, when
ann mentations cease.  And what we experience is not nothing,
for we are not conscious of the perception of nothing.

Verse 46:- When the mind is void of all mentations, we experience
the Witness or obscuring Cosciousness, in its purity as calm and
unagitated.  Similarly, prior to the functioning of Maya, the
existence, Sat, remained in its purity as quiescence, calm and

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.