Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - Subramanian.R

47026
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (113)
« on: August 25, 2008, 04:10:13 PM »
The Chapter XI continues...

Verse 30:- (Objection):  'The sleeping state of some other person
may be an illustration. (Reply):  You are indeed a clever man.
You have no knowledge of your own experience in deep sleep.
But you are going to prove by giving the illustration of another
man's deep sleep, and yet you profess to know that of another.

(The experience in deep sleep state can be explained with
one's own reference only.  Bhagavan has also mentioned this.
How do you know that the other man, who slept, had a hunger
in the sleep, unless, he himself wakes up and tells you?)

Verse 31:- (Objection):  The other person is in deep sleep
since he is inactive as in my case. (Reply):  Then from the force
of your illustration, you admit the self-revealing nature of the truth
in your own sleep.

Verse 32:-  (How?) There no sense organs, for you may say
you are inactive.  There is no illustration for the illustration
adduced by you in admissible.  And yet, there is the non-dual
which you admit.  That is what is known as the self-revealing
nature of the non dual.  So you are forced to admit it.

to be contd.....

Arunachala Siva.       

47027
My dear mikroth,  I am happy with your meaningful new post.
Be they westerners or orientals, the doubts arise everywhere,
because the Self does not make it easy for a particular set of
people in geography.

Now I shall explain with two or three examples:

1.  Bhagavan did not name his book, (or later someone named
it after consulting Him) as" Atma Vichara or An enquiry into the
 Self," because the Self cannot be enquired into!  Only the Anatma,
the nonself can be enquired into.  Hence He gave a new name,
Naan Yaar in Tamil, or Who am I? in English.

2. Bhagavan never said 'Whence' or 'Wherefrom', to mean
the 'place'.  He always meant, 'Whichfrom', if such a phrase can
be permitted in English.  For example, we ask, 'Wherefrom the
butter"?  A puritan English answer would be, 'from the milk-pot!'
But, everyone says, 'from the milk', meaning the Thing from which
the butter came and not the place.

3. Again the 'coming' and 'going' can be explained further, not
with this example, but with a different example.  When you see
snake, in the dark, which is really a rope, and when someone brings
'light' to enable you to see the rope, has the rope 'come' and the
snake 'gone'?  No, only one Thing is there.  As soon as the rope
is understood, the snake disappears.  Similarly, when you under
stand and enquire into the mind and its mischief making consort,
the ego, they disappear and the Self 'reveals'or the Self is understood!

3. When someone, who came from London, asked Bhagavan,
'Where I can go?', meaning how to realize the Self, Bhagavan
replied:  'Go to where you came from!'.  He did not mean definitely
London, the place, but the Self, the Thing, from which the ego
came. 

4.  Similarly, when some one asked, "Who am I?", Bhagavan
did not reply.  After several attempts, when the questioner
reframed the question, "Where is the Self?", He answered,
"The Self is there 'where' I is lost!"   Hereagain, the Self is
there in 'which' I is lost!

5.  Again, because the seekers wanted a place during the
practising period, He mentioned the right side of the heart,
which He called, the Heart. 

6. You may see from his Ulladu Narpadu, For verses on Existence,
the place is never mentioned.  Only in the Supplement to Forty
Verses on Existence, He mentioned a place for enquiry, by quoting
from Sanskrit poems called Ashtanga Hrudayam.

7.  All of us are seekers only, hence the place is important till
we know the Self.

Arunachala Siva.
     

47028
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (112)
« on: August 25, 2008, 02:51:20 PM »
The Chapter XI continues....

Verse 26:-  Was it non duality or duality or something different
from both?  It cannot have been the last, because it is impossible
to conceive so.  It cannot have been duality because it had not
yet emerged.  Hence, non duality alone remains.

Verse 27:- (Objection);  The truth of non duality is established
by argument only and not by experience, it cannot cannot be
experienced.  (Reply): Thenm tell whether your argument can or
cannot be supported by illustration. It must be one or the other.

Verse 28:-  You deny the possibility of the nondual experience.
At the same time, if you say, there is no illustration in support
of the argument that establishes non duality, it would be a
wonderful logic?  You cannot say there is no illustration in its
favour, for an argument must be supported by an illustration.
In case there are examples, please give an acceptable one.

Verse 29:- (Objection): Here is the argument with illustration.
In dissolution there is non duality, since duality is not experienced
there, as in deep sleep.  (Reply): Please give an illustration to
support your affirmation of the absence of duality in deep sleep.

(Because, the objector cannot cite his own experience in sleep,
for he has denied experience of non duality.  He must give
an external example.)

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.     

47029
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (111)
« on: August 25, 2008, 02:40:10 PM »
The Chapter XI continues.....

Verse 22:- (Objection):  Granting that there is no happiness
in duality, there is not happiness in non-duality either.  If
you maintain that there is, then it must be experienced,
and then there will be grief.

Verse 23:-  (Reply): 'Let there be no experience of happiness
in the state of non duality.  But non duality is itself Bliss. 'What is
the proof?'  'The self reealing requires no other proof.

Verse 24:-  Your objection itself is evidence of self-revealing
nature of the existence of the self-conscious non duality.
For, you admit the existence of the secondless and merely
contend that it is not bliss.

(The saying that there is no happiness in the condition of
non duality, you only entertain a doubt regarding the existence
of happiness, but now about non duality)

Verse 25:-  (Objection): I do not admit non duality but only
accept it as a hypothesis to be refuted.  (Reply):  Then tell us
what existed before duality emerged.

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.

47030
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (110)
« on: August 25, 2008, 02:32:49 PM »
The Chapter XI continues....

Verse 17:-  The infinite Self alone is bliss.  There is no bliss
in the finite realm of the triad.  This, Sanatkumara told
the grieving Narada.

(See Chandogya Up. 7.1.3; 7.23.1;)

Sanatkumara, said to be the 'avatara' of Skanda, preached
what is 'bhuma-vidya' to Narada.  The 'bhuma vidya'
is the realization of the 'bhuma', all expansive Self.

Verse 18:-  Even though Narada was versed in the Vedas,
the Puranas, and the various studies, he was full of grief
becuase of not knowing the Self.

(See Chandogya Up. 7.1.2.)

Verse 19:-  Before, he began the study of the Vedas, he
was subject to the three usual kinds of misery, but afterwards
je was more grieved because of the added afflictions of the
practices of the study, the fear of forgetting and slips or
defeat and conceit. 

Verse 20:- 'O Sage, said Narada, to Sanatkumara, 'learned
as I am in studies, I am subject o grief.  Please take me beyond
this ocean of misery.'  The Sage told Narada, in reply, that the
farther shore of the ocean of misery is the bliss of Brahman.

(See Chandogya Up. 7.1.26)

Verse 21:-  As the happiness derived from sense object is
covred by thousands of afflictions, it is misery only.  Therefore,
there is no happiness in the limited.

('Limted' here means that which is not expansive.  The All
expansive, limitless bliss is the Self.)

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.
 

 

47031
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (109)
« on: August 25, 2008, 02:02:53 PM »
The Chapter XI continues....

Verse 13:-   All beings are born of bliss and live by It, pass
on to It and are finally re-absorbed in It.  There is therefore,
no doubt that Brahman is Bliss.

(See Taittiriya Up. 3.6.1; 2.7.1)

Verse 14:-  Before the creation of beings, there was only
the Infnite and no triad of knower, known and knowing.
Therefore,in dissolution also, the triad ceases to exist.

(See Chandogya Up. 7.24.2;)

Verse 15:-  When created, the intellect-sheath is the
knower, the mind sheath is the field of knowledge. Sound etc.,
are the objects known.  Before creation, they did not exist.

Verse 16:-  In the absence of this triad, the secondless indivisible
Self alone exists.  The Self alone existed before the projection
of the world.  Similarly, It exists in the states of Samdhi,
deep sleep and swoon.

(See Prasna Up. 4.1-2;  Brahadranyaka Up. 4.2.23-32;
Katha Up. 2.2.8)
(This idea has also been said in Bhagavan's Who am I?)

To be contd...

Arunachala Siva.
   
   

47032
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (108)
« on: August 25, 2008, 01:54:40 PM »
The Chapter XI continues...

Verse 9:-  "The man of steady wisdom, having known the effulgent
Self, leaves behind, even in this life, all joys and sorrows".  "He is
not scorched by thoughts of the good or bad deeds, which he
may have done or omitted to do."

(See Katha Up. 1.2.12;  Brahadaranyaka Up. 4.4.22;)

Verse 10:-  Thus many texts in the Sruti, Smritis and Puranas
declare that the knowledge of Brahman destroy all sorrows
and leads to bliss.

(Srutis are Vedas and Upanishads;  The Smritis are other
books dealing with philosophy.  The Puranas are stories
of 'avataras' and gods and saintly people.)

Verse 11:-  Bliss of three kinds. The bliss of Brahman, the bliss
which is born of knowledge and the bliss which is produced
by contact with outer objects.  First, the bliss of Brahman is
being described.

Verse  12:-  Bhrugu learnt the definition of Brahman from his
father Varuna and negating the food sheath, the vital sheath,
the mind sheath and the intellect sheath, as not being Brahman,
he realized Brahman in the bliss sheath.

(See Taittiriya Up. 3)

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.

47033
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (107)
« on: August 25, 2008, 01:44:17 PM »
The Chapter XI continues....

Verse 6:-  Such a knower through his knowledge takes himself
beyond good and evil, and is ever engaged in meditation on the
Self.  He looks upon good and bad actions as the manifestations
of His Self.

(See Brahadaranyaka Up. 2.4.4-7)

Verse 7:-  "When a man has seen the Highest, the knots
of his heart are sundered.  All his doubts are displelled,
and all his actions perish".

(See Mundaka Up. 2.2.9)

Because a Jnani has no thoughts and actions, there are no
good and bad.

Verse 8:- "Knowing Him, one crosses the death, there is
no other path than this."  "When a man has known the
effulgent Self, all his bonds are cut as under, his afflictions
cease.  There is not  further birth for him."

(Svetasvatara Up. 6.15, 1.10;)

to be contd.....

Arunachala Siva.

47034
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (106)
« on: August 25, 2008, 01:37:31 PM »
The Chapter XI of Panhadasi, is called Brhamanande Yoganande,
The Bliis of Yoga.

Verse 1:-  We now describe the bliss of Brahman knowing which
one becomes free from presen and future ills and obtains
happiness.

(See Taittiriya Upanishad 3.6.1)

Verse 2:-  "A knower of Brahman achieves the Supreme",
"A knower of the Self goes beyond sorrow", "Brahman is
Bliss", "One becomes blissful through the attainment of
the blissful Brahman", and in no other way.

(See Taiitiriya Up. 2.1.1;  Chandogya Up. 7.1.3;)

Verse 3:-  He who establishes himself in his own field, becomes
fearless, but he who perceives any difference from the Self is
fear. 

(See Taittiriya Up. 2.7.1; Brahadaranyakya Up.  1.4.2;
Katha Up. 2.1; 10.11;)

When tiger, panther, poisonous snakes came to Bhagavan
Ramana, in the Hill,  He showed no fear, whereas others who
were with Him ran for life.  When thives came to the hut, others
got angry or afraid.  But Bhagavan was unmoved.  He who sees
nothing other than the Self within, has no fear.

Verse 4:-  Even Wind, Sun, Fire, Indra, and Death having
performed the religious practices in earlier lives, but failing
to realize their identity with Him, carry out their tasks in
fear of Him.

(See Taittiriya Up. 2.8.1;  Katha Up. 2.3.;)

In Hindu pantheon, the posts of manager of five elements,
celestial beings and death are only temporary and are given
by God, for some period of time.  The managers are not liberated.
They have to retire from their posts, once the period is over. In
Saiva Siddhanta, it is said, after compeltion of four yugas, eons,
even Vishnu and Brahma have to vacate their posts!  Siva is
Brahman, ever present, even after countless Vishnus and Brahmas!

Verse 5:-  One, who has attained the bliss of Brahman experiences
fear from nothing.  Anxiety regarding his good and bad actions
which consumes other like fire, no longer scorches him.

(See Taittiriya Up. 2.9.1;)

to be contd....

Arunachala Siva.     

.
 

47035
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (105)
« on: August 25, 2008, 12:18:37 PM »
The Chapter X continues....

Verse 23:-  Whatever form the intellect imagines, the Supreme
Self illumines it as its witness, remaining Itself beyond the
grasp of speech and mind.

Verse 24:-  If you object, "How such a Self could be grasped
by me?" our answer is, "Let it not be grasped.  When the duality
of the knower and the known comes to an end, what remains
is the Self.  There is no need for any grasping.

Verse 25:-  Since Atman is self-luminous in its nature, its
existence needs no proof.  If you need to be convinced that
the existence of Atman needs no proof, hear the instruction
of the Sruti, from a spiritual teacher.

Verse 26:-  If you find the renunciation of all perceptible
duality impossible, refelct on the intellect and realize the
Witness Consciousness, as the one witness of all internal
and external creations of the intellect.

Concluded.

Arunachala Siva.
   

47036
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (104)
« on: August 25, 2008, 12:12:03 PM »
The Chapter X continues....

Verse 19:-  Similarly, the Witness-Consciousness though
really fixed in its own place and neither going out nor
returning within, yet appears to move owing to the restless
nature of the mind.

Verse 20:-  The Witness Consciousness can neither be called
external nor internal.  Both these terms have references only
to the mind.  When the mind becomes fully tranquil, the witness
exists where it abides.

Verse 21:-  If it be said that, when all mental operations cease,
there is no space at all, we reply: let it have no space.  It is
all pervasive, because of the mind's creation of space.

(dear srkudai and others, kindly note, when the minds operations
cease, it is all pervasive.  Thoughtless state is the Self, the Real)

Verse 22:-  Whatever space, internal or external, the intellect
imagines, is pervaded by the Witness Consciousness.  Similarly,
will the Witness Consciousness be related to other objects.

To be contd.,

Arunachala Siva.       

47037
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (103)
« on: August 25, 2008, 11:59:20 AM »
The Chapter X continues...

Verse 14:-  In this illustration, the patron is the ego, the
various sense objects are he audiences, the intellect is
the dancer, the musicians playing their instruments are the
sense organs, and the light illuminating them all is the
Witness-Consciousness.

Verse 15:-  As the light reveals all the objects remaining
in its own place, as the Witness-Consciousnes itself ever
motionless, the illumines the objects with and without,
including the operations of the mind.)

Verse 16:-  The distinction between the external and internal
objects refers to the body and not to the Witness-Consciousness.
Sense objects are outside the body whereas the ego is within
the body.

Verse 17:-  The mind seated within goes out again with the
sense organs.  In vain, people seek to impose the fickleness
of the mind illumined by the Witness-Consciousness on the latter.

Verse 18:-  The streak of sunlight coming into the room, through
an opening is motionless.  But one dances one's hand in the
rays, the light appears to be dancing.

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.
 

47038
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (102)
« on: August 25, 2008, 11:50:45 AM »
The Chapter X continues....

Verse 10:-  The Witness, like the lamp in a dancing hall, reveals,
all those as 'I see', 'I hear', 'I smell', 'I taste', and 'I touch'
as pieces of knowledge.

Verse 11:-  The light in the dancing hall uniformly reveals the
patron, the audience and the dancer.  Even when they are
absent , the light continues to shine.

Verse 12:-  The Witness-Consciousness lights up the ego,
the intellect, and the sense-objects.  Even when ego etc.,
are absent, it remains self luminous as ever.

Verse 13:-  The unchangeable Witness is ever present as
self luminous Consciousness.  The intellecdt, functions
under its light and dances in a variety of ways.

( All the readers may kindly see, Bhagavan's Cinema Screen
example and understand the comparison.)

To be contd....

Arunachala Siva.   

47039
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (101)
« on: August 25, 2008, 11:44:26 AM »
The Chapter X continues...

Verse 6:-  He who thinks 'I am' is the agent.  Mind in his
instrument of action, and the actions of the mind are two types,
in succession, internal and external.

Verse 7:-  The internal modification of the mind takes the form
of "I".  It makes him as an agent.  The external modification
assumes the form of 'this'.  It reveals to him, the external things.

Verse 8:-  The external things (that are cognized) by the mind
in a general way, their special qualifications having been
jumbled up, are cognized by the five sense organs quite distinctly
as sound, touch, colour , taste and smell.

Verse 9:-  That Consciousness which reveals at one and
the same time the agent, the action, and the external objects
is called 'Witness', 'Sakshi'. in the Vedanta.

to be contd....

Arunchala Siva.   

47040
Translations and Commentaries by Forum Members / Panchadasi - (100)
« on: August 25, 2008, 11:37:57 AM »
The Chapter X, of Panchadasi, called  'Nataka Deepa',
The Lamp of the Theatre, describes the duality, bondage
and release.

Verse 1:-  Before the projection of the world the Supreme
Self, the secondless, all bliss and ever complete, alone
existed.  Through His Maya, He became the world, and
entered into it as the Jiva, the individual self.

(See Chandogya Up. 6.2.1; Brahadaranyaka Up. 3.9.34, 5.1.1.;
Svetasvatara Up. 4.10; Taittiriya Up. 2.7, 2.6;)

Verse 2:-  Entering the superior bodies like that of Vishnu,
He became the deities.  And remaining the inferior bodies
like that of men, He worhsips the deities!

Verse 3:-  Due to the practice of devotion in many lives,
the Jiva desires to reflect upon his nature.  When by enquiry
and reflection, Maya is negated, the Self alone remains.

(Devotion, 'bhakti' precedes wisdom, 'jnana'.  Bhagavan Sri
Ramana has also said, devotion is the mother of jnana.  See
Upadesa Saram also.)

Verse 4:-  The duality and misery of the secondless Slef, whose
nature is bliss, is called bondage.  Abiding in Its own nature is
said to be liberation.

(To curl up in the place from which you sprang up, is karma,
bhakti, yoga and jnana - Upadesa Saram of Bhagavan).

Verse 5:-  Bondage is caused by want of discrimination, and
is negated by discrimination.  Hence, one should discriminate
about the individual and Supreme Self.

(See Who am I?)

To be contd.

Arunachala Siva.