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Messages - Subramanian.R

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General Discussion / Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« on: November 28, 2015, 07:12:05 AM »

I think reading and the extent of reading is also one's prarabdha.  Reading is not a pre-requisite
for Jnana. Sankara read formally everything, went to Govinda Bhagavad Pada and then got further clarifications.  He was of course, an avatara, and therefore Jnana was already there.  But still
he followed a formal way.  Bhagavan Ramana did not read much but got Atmajnana and then
read a few books as and when devotees asked for clarifications.  All Sankara Math pontiffs go
through a formal learning of Vedas and Upanishads for about 8 years.  It varies from Jnani to Jnani. 
Attaining Jnana without a formal reading, is of course, quite rare.

Arunachala Siva.


On 2nd Jan 1946, a visitor asked whether Jnanis retire generally from active life and do not engage
in any worldly activities.

Bhagavan replied:

They may or may not.  Some, even after realizing, carry on
trade and business, or rule over a kingdom, [like Janaka].
Some retire into forest and abstain from all acts except those
absolutely necessray to keep life in the body. So, we cannot
say all Jnanis give up activity and retire from life.

Visitor further asked: I want to know if Bhagavan can give concrete examples , like the butcher Dharmavyadha mentioned in our books, of Jnanis now living and doing their
ordinary daily work in life.

Bhagavan did not answer. {Readers can guess the purpose
of this question from the visitor}

Visitor:  Is renunciation necessary for Self Realization.

Bhagavan:  Renunciation and realization are the same. They are different aspects of the same state. 
Giving up the non-self is renunciation.  Inhering in the Self is Jnana or Self Realization.  One is the
negative and the other the positive aspect of the same single truth.  Bhakti, Jnana, Yoga -- are
names for Self Realization or mukti which is our real nature.

(Source: Day by Day, Devaraja Mudaliar)

Arunachala Siva.   

General Discussion / Re: Laghu Vasudeva Mananam:
« on: November 27, 2015, 05:02:26 PM »
The answer continues...

3) Lakshya-lakshana-bhava-sambandha: In the sentence Sah ayam devadattah.  That is the same
as this Devadatta, you may mistakenly take 'Sa' and 'Ayam' as indicating Devadatta in his complete
personality.  You realize the mistake of doing so, as these two terms 'that' and 'this' are about
Devadatta in different situations, and therefore your understanding of the meanings of the terms
are contradictory.  So you eliminate the contradictory aspects of your first understanding of the two
'terms', and when this is done there is identity of reference in the essential parts of the 'terms'
as indicating the Devadatta. Similarly there will be contradiction if you accept the meanings
of Tat and Tvam as indicating exclusively the Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute. For the Jiva
also is included in it. So you leave aside the parts that cause contradiction and take only the
Chaitanya that will not involve contradiction.Then you get what is called Lakshya Lakshana
Sambanda - relation  of identity between the direct and indirect meanings of the words.
This kind of relation  is also known as as Bhagatvaga lakshana and Jagad ajagad lakshana.


Arunachala Siva.   

General Discussion / Re: Laghu Vasudeva Mananam:
« on: November 27, 2015, 04:38:59 PM »
The answer continues...

2) The terms have also the Viseshana-viseshaya or qualifier and the qualified relation. Here the
term 'Sah' qualifies Devadatta, as the one seen in a particular place, and at a particular time,
and 'ayam' -this qualifies the same Devadatta seen in a different place and at a different time.
As they deny any difference in the person through the qualifications regarding the place and time
of seeing the same Devadatta, the terms have the relation of the qualifier and the qualified.

In the same way, the word 'tat', indicates the identity of the Chaitanya having entirely different
qualifications, like omniscience, omnipotence, etc., as God, and 'tvam' as the identical Chaitanya,
as Jiva,with the qualifications of very limited knowledge, body consciousness, etc., Here the identity
of the entity, the qualified, is shown through varying qualifications or attributes as in 'this'  is           
'that' Devadatta, referred to above.


Arunachala Siva.

General Discussion / Re: Laghu Vasudeva Mananam:
« on: November 27, 2015, 04:24:56 PM »
The answer continues...

1) The terms: sah and ayam --; 'that' and 'this' denote a single person, i.e. Devadatta.  As these
two terms denote the same individual - Devadatta, they mean the same person and so they are
in coordinate relation. In the same way, the sentence Tat tvam asi - the term 'Tat' and 'tvam'
denote the same consciousness. So likewise they have the same relation of identical denotation.


Arunachala Siva.   

General Discussion / Re: Laghu Vasudeva Mananam:
« on: November 27, 2015, 04:19:33 PM »
What are these three ways of connection or Sambandha?

These are:

1) Coordinate relation (Samanadhikaranya) between the terms in a sentence.

2) The relation of qualifier and qualified between the terms.

3) The relation of the terms of their meaning as directly denoting (Lakshya) the all pervading
Atman (Pratyagatman) or indirectly denoting (Lakshana) their meaning.

As an example of this, we may take the sentence - sah ayam devatttah, that is this Devatatta.
In this sentence as shown below, there are all three above mentioned relations:


Arunachala Siva.       

General Discussion / Re: Laghu Vasudeva Mananam:
« on: November 27, 2015, 02:09:44 PM »
This example may be sufficient to explain how the two names, Isvara and Jiva, come into being.
It is just a verbal difference and nothing more than.  But what is the clear and complete example
explaining how the Jiva has only very limited knowledge and Isvara is all knowing?

There are examples to illustrate this also.A huge collection of water in a lake,can meet the needs
of a whole village of many people.  It has the capacity to do this.  But a small quantity of that water
capable of filling a pot can meet the needs of one house only.  Its capacity is very very limited. Fire,
when lights a huge torch, is capable of illuminating a large area.  But the fire from a small wick can
only illuminate the inside of a small house.  Similarly when the same Atman, when it has got the all-cause
Maya as adjunct is the all knowing Isvara, and when it has the very insignificant effect-condition  known
as Avidya as adjunct, appears to be the little knowing Jiva. Thus there are no two Atmans, one all
knowing and the other of limited knowledge.  It is for this reason that Vedantic scripture, by giving three
different ways of connection - Sambandha for Tat and Tvam in the Mahavakya Tat Tvam Asi, shows
the non duality of the Atman.


Arunachala Siva.           

General topics / Re: Tevaram - Some select verses.
« on: November 27, 2015, 11:39:22 AM »

Verse 101:

உரையினால் இம்மாலை அந்தாதி வெண்பாக்
கரைவினாற் காரைக்காற் பேய்சொல் - பரவுவார்
ஆராத அன்பினோ டண்ணலைச்சென் றேத்துவார்
பேராத காதல் பிறந்து. (101)

They that hail this garland of anaphoretic Venba verses
Woven with melting love by Kaaraikkaal Pey*, will in love
Insatiate, reach the presence of the merciful Lord
And hail Him in unending devotion ever after.

(*The ghost of Karaikkal - Karaikkal Ammaiyar)

Athpuda Tiru Andati of Karaikkal Ammaiyar - concluded.)

Arunachala Siva.

General topics / Re: Tevaram - Some select verses.
« on: November 27, 2015, 11:36:34 AM »

Verse 100:

நடக்கிற் படிநடுங்கும் நோக்கில் திசைவேம்
இடிக்கின் உலகனைத்தும் ஏங்கும் - அடுக்கல்
பொருமேறோ ஆனேறோ பொன்னொப்பாய் நின்ஏ
றுருமேறோ ஒன்றா உரை. (100)

O Golden-hued ! When Your bull walks, earth trembles ; ablaze is
The direction when it looks thither world ; when it bellows
The whole world gets scared. Is Your mount a lion of the mountain
Or a thunderbolt or truly a bull ? Clarify this.

Arunachala Siva.

General topics / Re: Tevaram - Some select verses.
« on: November 27, 2015, 11:33:21 AM »

Verse 99:

செப்பேந் திளமுலையாள் காணவோ தீப்படுகாட்
டப்பேய்க் கணமவைதாங் காணவோ - செப்பெனக்கொன்
றாகத்தான் அங்காந் தனலுமிழும் ஐவாய
நாகத்தாய் ஆடுன் நடம். (99)

O One who sports a five-headed serpent that spits venom
With its mouth agape ! Is it for the beholding of Her
Of lovely young breasts or for that of the throngs of ghouls
In the fiery crematory, that You dance ? For whose sake this dance ?

Arunachala Siva.

General topics / Re: Tevaram - Some select verses.
« on: November 27, 2015, 11:30:53 AM »

Verse 98:

அழலாட அங்கை சிவந்ததோ அங்கை
அழகால் அழல்சிவந்த வாறோ - கழலாடப்
பேயோடு கானிற் பிறங்க அனலேந்தித்
தீயாடு வாய்இதனைச் செப்பு . (98)

Holding fire You dance to the tinkling of Your heroic anklet
In the fire of the crematory where ghouls dance.
Did Your hand turn red as it held the fire ? Or did the fire
Grow ruddy from its contact with Your beauteous palm ? Un-riddle this.

Arunachala Siva.

General topics / Re: Tevaram - Some select verses.
« on: November 27, 2015, 11:28:30 AM »

Verse 97:

மறைத்துலகம் ஏழினிலும் வைத்தாயோ அன்றேல்
உறைப்போடும் உன்கைக்கொண் டாயோ - நிறைத்திட்
டுளைந்தெழுந்து நீயெரிப்ப மூவுலகும் உள்புக்
களைந்தெழுந்த செந்தீ யழல். (97)

At the end of Yuga,  You rage and burn up with swelling fire
The universe ; have You (now) kept the ruddy fire
That invaded the three worlds, hidden in the seven worlds ?
Or with great valiance do You hold it in Your palm ?

Arunachala Siva.

General topics / Re: Tevaram - Some select verses.
« on: November 27, 2015, 11:26:17 AM »

Verse 96:

ஆர்வல்லார் காண அரன்அவனை அன்பென்னும்
போர்வை யதனாலே போர்த்தமைத்துச் - சீர்வல்ல
தாயத்தால் நாமுந் தனிநெஞ்சி னுள்ளடைத்து
மாயத்தால் வைத்தோம் மறைத்து.  (96)

We covered this Haran with love; shut Him within
The innards of our bosoms for others not to see;
Aren?t we the secure, valiant ones thereby?
Aren?t we, or is He, or we or He? by right of birth.

Arunachala Siva.

General topics / Re: Tevaram - Some select verses.
« on: November 27, 2015, 11:23:49 AM »

Verse 95:

அவளோர் குலமங்கை பாகத் தகலாள்
இவளோர் சலமகளும் ஈதே - தவளநீ
றென்பணிவீர் என்றும் பிறந்தறியீர் ஈங்கிவருள்
அன்பணியார் சொல்லுமினிங் கார் . (95)

Grey holy ash, and bone you wear O Lord!
Beside-Abider Uma is of goodly sublime.
Water?d Ganga is on the holy crest. The two, you leave not.
Of them which one is dearer to you, which extraction?

Arunachala Siva.

General topics / Re: Tevaram - Some select verses.
« on: November 27, 2015, 11:20:51 AM »

Verse 94:

விருப்பினால் நீபிரிய கில்லாயோ வேறா
இருப்பிடமற் றில்லையோ என்னோ - பொருப்பன்மகள்
மஞ்சுபோல் மால்விடையாய் நிற்பிரிந்து வேறிருக்க
அஞ்சுமோ சொல்லாய் அவள். (94)   

Cloud-hued fair Tirumal turned Bull,  and He is His mount.
O, lord is it for love of your consort, you stand
Not separate or for love of you she stands not? Why?
Tell, would she fear to be far from you?

Arunachala Siva.

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