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Messages - gangajal

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Dear Subramanian,
      There is some description of the Brahma-bhutam state which is near the moksha state:

In which he (the Yogin) experiences the ENDLESS BLISS which is beyond the
ken of the senses but is intuited by the purified intellect; wherein
established, one does not waver from the Truth. (Gita 6.21)

Know that the severance of connection with pain as what is designated as
Yoga. It has to be practised tirelessly with determination (Gita 6.23)

SUPREME BLISS wells up in a Yogi, who is tranquil in mind, whose passions
are subdued, who is free from impurities and who is in the Brahma-bhutam
state. (Gita 6.27)


Dear Subramanian,

    Bhagavan Ramana is also right in choosing 18.61-62. I am giving below those verses:

O Arjuna! The Lord dwells in the heart of all beings revolving them all by
His mysterious Power Maya, as if they were objects mounted on a machine.
(Gita 18.61)

O Scion of Bharata's clan! Seek refuge in Him, making a total surrender of
your being - body, mind and soul. By His grace you will attain to supreme
peace and the everlasting abode.
(Gita 18.62)

Listen again to My supreme word, the profoundest of all spiritual teachings.
You are well beloved of Me; and so I shall tell you what is beneficial to
you. (Gita 18.64)

Let your mind be engrossed in Me. Be devoted to Me. Offer worship to Me. Be
resigned to Me. Beloved as you are of Me, I pledge in troth you shall come to
Me alone.(Gita 18.65)

Abandoning dependence on all Dharmas come to Me as the only Refuge. Grieve
not; I will deliver you from all sins. (Gita 18.66)

I think Gita 18.61-62 and 18.64-66 are imparting the same message of surrender.


General topics / Re: The Human body is a blessing or cursing
« on: October 28, 2008, 02:26:45 AM »
Dear Ramanaduli,

     The human body is both. It is a curse because it is subjected to sufferings like old age, death etc.
It is a blessing because it allows us to gain moksha.


I am posting here some excerpts of Ramakrishna Mission Swami Tapasyananda's commentary on
Gita 18.64-66. I have replaced the term faith by sraddha since I do not believe sraddha is the same as faith.

GITA 18.64

Listen again to My supreme word, the profoundest of all spiritual teachings.
You are well beloved of Me; and so I shall tell you what is beneficial to

GITA 18.65

Let your mind be engrossed in Me. Be devoted to Me. Offer worship to Me. Be
resigned to Me. Beloved as you are of Me, I pledge in troth you shall come to
Me alone.

GITA 18.66

Abandoning dependence on all Dharmas come to Me as the only refuge. Grieve
not; I will deliver you from all sins.

Commentary by Swami Tapasyananda:

The essence of the Gita teaching is clinched in the verses 65 and 66. While
the Gita teaching has a place for the renunciation of all actions by aspirants
who have attained to purity of mind, its main thrust is to recommend the
renunciation not of works but of their fruits and the sense of agency. In
verse 66 an aspirant is asked to abandon all Dharma. Dharma is interpreted
by some schools of thought as Karmas. If by Karma is meant all Vedic ritualism
and ego-centered work for selfish gains, the equation of Dharma with Karma is
all right. But it cannot be of works done as pure acts of devotion and
service. For the immediate verse (18.65) says:"Let your mind be engrossed in
Me. Be devoted to Me. Offer worship to Me. Be resigned to Me" etc. So works
of the nature of Bhakti discipline should always be performed. .....

Even in the performance of these devotional activities, there is a form of
renunciation to be practised. There is a tendency among spiritual aspirants
to feel that they have done so much of Sadhana and nothing has happened or
that they are entitled to the Lord's grace because they have done so much
of spiritual practices. There is nothing so ... unspiritual as this kind of
mentality. The Infinite Being cannot be purchased for any price of limited
commodities. A true aspirant abandons the fruits of all his Sadhanas to Him.

The Lord's grace is bestowed according to His will; man's duty is only to
pray for it and wait in patience. He is to have the abiding sraddha that
"The Lord dwells in the hearts of all beings, revolving these by his
mysterious power Maya, as one would do objects mounted on a machine" (GITA
18.61). His are the fruits and His the agency. The surrender of the fruits and
the sense of agency in regard to all one's spiritual practices even, besides
the abandonment of all non-spiritual activities, is included in the idea of
giving up all Dharma. And with this attitude of mind, an aspirant must abide
in the sraddha that the Lord is his only support, his only redeemer, the only
determiner of his destiny.

According to Sri Madhusudana Sarasvati, this surrender takes three forms
determined by the maturity of Sadhana.

1. first, there is the attitude 'I am His', second is the attitude
"He is mine', and the third, there is the experience 'He is I'. Surrender
takes these three forms according to spiritual maturity.

In explanation of these, he quotes as an example of the first attitude:

"When the sense of difference subsides, I am, O Lord, They appendage, and not
You mine. It is the wave that belongs to the ocean and never the ocean to the

2. The second stage is represented by the attitude:
"Well Krishna, Thou art forcibly snatching Thyself away from me physically.
How strange! I shall only praise Thy valour if Thou art able to extricate
Thyself out of my heart also." Here the devotee's sense of 'myness' with
regard to the Lord is so great that he feels that He can never separate
Himself from him (the devotee).

3. The third and the highest stage of surrender is represented by the
realisation embodied in the verse addressed by Yama to his emissaries in the
"Do not approach those in whom has arisen the firm conviction that all that
exists is Vasudeva, the one Supreme Lord and Master of all, dwelling within
the heart." Here the 'I' has disappeared in the "He" and there is only He.

One who resorts to Him absolutely, He offers to deliver from all sins. Sins
must be understood in a comprehensive sense, namely the effects of all Karma,
present and past, good and bad, which lead to repeated births and deaths. Even
the effects of good Karmas can be called 'sin', as they also lead to repeated
births and deaths.
In other words, the Lord promises to bestow His grace, and
to light in one's heart the lamp of wisdom that removes the darkness of
Ignorance, which is the cause of all sin. Individual sins may be absolved by
atonements (prayascitta) but sins or sinful tendency can be effaced only by
Haritosanam - by securing the grace of the Lord.

Dear Gangajal,
            :) Very interesting idea. A few questions on the practise:
a) so we sit before god and ask him to remove lust, desire, greed etc. every day for, let us say an hours time.
    that is like repeating it ?
b) how long have you been doing this ? Have the lust etc left you ?


Dear Silence,

    a)  Yes, I repeat again and again. Like I will keep repeating, "please destroy lust...", for some time. Then I will do the same
for any other problem that I have. One of the tings you have to do is to keep close watch over your conduct. For example,
do you get angry if someone criticizes you? Then you need to get control over anger. So ask God to destroy your anger.

    b) I have been doing this practice for about 9 years now. I will not say that lust etc has left me. I will say that my situation
has improved. I started to do this because I found that just doing japa is not enough. If you want to do only japa then you have
to do a minimum of 6-7 hours every day to get any effect. I found that praying to God to destroy the bad tendencies is far more
efficient and practical. After that you can do japa for half an hour.


Dear ramanaduli,
     Why don't you do mental worship and japa?


Dear David,
       Chittasuddhi or cleansing of the mind is sine qua non for all spiritual aspirants. Chittasuddhi
includes the idea of control of the senses. How can one control one's senses? I will give an answer
from the point of view of Bhakti or Raj or Karma Yoga. What people do is to concentrate their mind
at the heart center and then ask the Ishta Devata in the heart center to destroy their lust, greed etc.
Do this for an hour every day from now on. You will see improvement after some time. No Yoga will
succeed unless your mind is cleansed.


I have found the Ramakrishna Order Swami Tapasyananda's explanation of swadharma to be helpful.
I am posting here excerpts from his commentary on the Gita 18.47:

"One's own duty, even if without excellence (i.e. inferior in the scale of
worldy values), is more meritorious spiritually than the apparently
well-performed duty of another. For no sin is incurred by one doing works
ordained according to one's nature, (that is, in consonance with one's own
natural evolution.)"

Excerpts from Swami T's commentary:

This verse, which was easy for our ancients to understand, pose great
difficulty for us today. So long as Varna was identified with endogamous
caste, and valid texts ascribed particular works to each caste (18.41-45),
it was easy to find one's Svadharma. But, as already pointed out, the wording
of the Gita about Caturvanya, except as interpreted by old commentators, does
not by itself mean endogamous castes, but the four psychological types. If
this is accepted, Svadharma would mean only work that springs out of one's
nature and therefore adopted to one's natural development.

The Swami T also says in his commentary on Gita 18.45

"By being devoted to one's own natural duty, man attains to spiritual
competency. Now hear how devotion to one's own natural duty generates
spiritual competency."

 the following:

This great verse of the Gita links man's social duties with spiritual
discipline. By cultivating a special attitude towards work, work is turned
into worship, and the distance between the shrine room and the work-spot
disappears. This philosophy is based upon a fundamental faith that this world
and the progress of life in it are all under the guidance of Supreme
Intelligence, who is the master of it all, and whose will is expressed in all
its movements. If man has got this faith, man ceases to be self-centered. He
comes to view himself as a worker of God, and all that he does comes to be
done with a sense of dedication to Him. Such work, as accrues to one according
to one's nature and is done with a spirit of dedication, is called Svadharma,
one's natural duty. This outlook on one's work makes a man free from
corruption and negligence, and induces him to put his best effort into his
work. If an attitude of this type were accepted in a society as a whole, it
will be the best social philosophy, besides being a spiritual doctrine. It
will secure the social good as also bring about the individual's spiritual

A natural objection to this way of understanding chaturvarna is that all
commentators understand the four Varnas as endogamous groups called castes,
and their natural duty (swadharma) of theirs as the profession that was
traditionally and scripturally alloted to those groups under the four
distinctive names. Such interpretations of the Gita were given at a time
when these endogamous caste groups were a recognized feature of Indian
society, and thinkers considered birth in a group as tantamount to character
type. The mistake of such identification was obvious to many thinkers of the
past. So some of them have made some kinds of amends for it by admitting that
if great disparity in quality is found in the actual quality of a Kshatriya
with the traditionally ascribed qualities, he can become a Brahmana. But all
rationality seems to have been neutralised by the very strong prejudice in
favour of endogamy.

What the Lord speaks of here as chaturvarna should never be identified with
castes, because the Varna is said to be solely dependent on character formed
by the Gunas of Prakriti. It is only an ideal grouping based on psychological
principle and not on rigid hereditary basis.

Besides the Gita is a universal Gospel addressed to all mankind, for all
time, and not merely to the Indian society of a particular age. In no part
of the world except in India, caste system strictly based on birth seems to
have existed. Loose castes there have been but not rigid castes. So the old
commentators have done great injustice to Sri Krishna in watering down the
significance of his message as relevant only to members of the rigid Indian
social system.

The only practical way of applying the Gita teaching in this respect today is
to consider the duty to which one is called, as one's swadharma. Strictly
Swadharma is work according to one's nature. But until an ideal and efficient
social system comes into vogue, it may not be possible to give every one a
work for which he is suited by his character type. What could be done for
today, if one's duty is not according to one's nature, is to change it for
a more suitable one, considering the former as Paradharma, the duty of
another type of character. But today most men are found seeking not a duty
temperamentally suitable for them, but what will bring them maximum income.
When a duty is valued solely for the income it fetches, it ceases to be a
pursuit of a Dharma or spiritual value. Receiving remuneration for services
is unavoidable for man in the world, but what is unspiritual is to value
the work only for its remuneration, forgetting that the work he does is an
offering to God, irrespective of the remuneration he gets.

Dear Silence,
     [[[These discussions are very important. Each one of us comes from different back-ground and have practised Spirituality in our own lives for quite some time ... so here we are deconditioning some beliefs. We need to understand very clearly and see what is not correct as wrong. Disagreements are beautiful. Coz out of disagreements, different ideas pop up. IF all of us think the same way... its absolutely futile and boring.]]]

    Yes, I agree. However, let me also state here that not every one's opinion has the same value. I would give more weight to the opinion of a person who has had personal experience. For example, I am suspecting from Subramanian's accurate posts that he has had some personal
spiritual experience. Subramanian is not telling us merely from the intellectual level. (I hope I am not embarasing him.)

[[[Please see ... Pranayama / Bhajan clears mind ... does not clear the cause for junk in mind. So stage fear is not there in the mind, but it might appear. That there is nothing to fear has to be learnt. That is a solution. That is attacking the problem ... not the symptoms.]]]

   Yes, we must ultimately destroy the seed. That is why the highest samadhi is called nirbija samadhi. However, before you can destroy the seed, you must clean the room!


Dear Ramanaduli, Gangajal, Dr. Raju and srkudai,

Kundalini or Raja marga is one of the methods of cleaning the mind.
There are other methods under Bhakti and Karma margas.

I believe that we should stop this ping-pong game of whether plugging
or cleaning is the real cleaning.  It is for etymologists to battle out
the roots of these words and do the boxing in the ring.  I have given
my views and srkudai has given his views.  Both may be correct.
Nevertheless, I do not want to have the last laugh!

Arunachala Siva.     

Dear Subramanian,
     I would say that it is one's Guru who really does the cleaning. But then since
the Guru is non-different from Kundalini shakti which in turn is non-different from
the Self, it is finally the Self which does the cleaning. Would you agree with this?


Dear gangajal,
                   I am not upset by your comments on JK,you have got every freedom to comment anybody.But my purpose of posting to you is different.
Judging,evaluating others divert our attention from doing self-enquiry and during sadhana period it is not advisable.I feel that better we utilise
the available time for self-enquiry because life is short and time is highly precious.

Thank you DRPVSSNRAJU for the clarification. I agree with you completely. It seems that my lack of chittasuddhi was showing!

Dear Silence,
      Subramanian has explained very ably the necessity for cleaning of the mind. I have nothing to add to what he has written!


Dear gangajal,
                   What is the cleansing agent of the mind?Can the mind clean itself?

                   What is the entity that is so much concerned about chitta suddhi and Bhuta Sudhi of JK and deciding that he is not eligible for Jnana marga?Those who are interested in "who am i" enquiry should go to the source of the entity that is crticising the others.

       The cleansing agent of the mind is kundalini shakti. The mind is not cleaning itself.

        The entity, "that is so much concerned about chitta suddhi and Bhuta Sudhi of JK and deciding that he is not eligible for Jnana marga",
is the lingasarira which consists of manas, buddhi, chitta and ahamkara. Lingasarira is the Atman bound by the eight fetters.

       I felt reading your post that you are upset with my criticism of jk. Subramanian has already given his reason for throwing out jk's books.
I merely want to add that jk also forced his lover to abort a fetus. I have not attained chittasuddhi but I have not yet descended to that level.


Dear Subramanian ji,

Cleaning mind is definitely not making it calm.
Cleaning the mind is Understanding that i am the Self, and living it out! until the understanding sinks deep enough to be practical for me. That alone is cleaning mind: Associating "I" with Self, Consciousness.

Anything else is not.


Dear Silence,

      Cleaning the mind makes it calm. Cleaning the mind is not Understanding that i am the Self.
Cleaning the mind is absolutely necessary but not sufficient. Unless the Atman chooses you, you will not have the
Self experience. However, without cleansing of the mind Atman will not choose you.

     Those who ignore the cleansing of the mind end up like Jiddu Krishnamurthy. I think JK not
only did not reach the stage of chittasuddhi but he did not have even  bhutashuddhi. JK was not
fit for Jnana marga.



Dear Silence,

        You have written,

  "Without understanding if the same thing is done to keep the mind still, the basic problem is not solved, so the quietness of mind will only remain for a limited time... and soon, vanish. Coz cause of the lack of calmness is not eliminated... only mind is calmed for a few moments."

I looked at the following Gita verses:

Fix your mind on Me alone; let your reason penetrate into Me; without doubt
you will then abide in Me alone for ever more. (Gita 12.8)

If you are unable to fix your mind steadily on Me (even at the start) then try
to reach Me through the systematic practice of concentration. (Gita 12.9)

It seems to me that one does not need the type of understanding you are advocating. It is enough to accept that you are trying to fix your mind on God. If the mind refuses to remain calm then Gita 12.9 says try again. One can get control over the mind through practice. So what
role does understanding play? I would say none. One has a crude intellectual type understanding at the beginning. One's understaning
grows as one tries repeatedly to fix the mind.

Of course Gita also accepts the path of Jnana as is clear from this verse:

Those who are devoted to the Imperishable (the Impersonal Absolute) - who is
the firm support of the world and is also undefinable, unmanifested,
transcendent, motionless, and all-pervading - even they reach me alone,
striving with their senses controlled, and with mind tranquillised and set
on the welfare of all. (Gita 12.3-4)

Gita, however, says that

The obstacles facing those devoted to the Impersonal Absolute are far greater;
for the way of an unclear ideal is difficult for an embodied being to understand and follow.
(Gita 12.5)



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