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Messages - srkudai

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1
General Discussion / Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« on: February 20, 2018, 11:59:51 AM »
Annamalai Swami ji is pretty clear : stop believing that i am this body or the mind. There is no "I" in the body/mind.
Bhagavan : the body and mind have no person "in" them. Awareness does not either. see where is the "I" .
Sri Ramakrishna: it is like peeling an onion, if you keep on peeling there is no "center". if you search for i there is no i

All of them are saying just the same thing.
Just the same Truth... different styles of expressing.

if instead i say ... ill concentrate, ill please a god or ill stop my thoughts etc ... well ... they would say that i may continue these practices until one day by the grace of God i see what they are saying and drop off. :)

Love!
Silence

2
General Discussion / Re: THIS FORUM
« on: February 20, 2018, 11:55:50 AM »
Dear ksksat27,
         :)

How did you rule out the possibility that it is a "devotee ego" :P that wants Bhagavan to be "Superior" or "Different" from Advaita Vedanta ? :)

Love!
Silence

3
General Discussion / Re: THIS FORUM
« on: February 16, 2018, 10:41:35 AM »
Dear Nishta,
          :)

I do not agree that Inquiry "steals" away the habit. When the mind is totally still one may not feel like even speaking. but then, when one starts to involve in the world, one speaks and also acts. when mind is kept still for a long time, it tends to remain motionless. thats all that happens. but spirituality is not about motionless-ness of mind ... mind is like a car ... one needs to handle the mind. when moving and when still. otherwise one is not a good driver of the car.

Somehow people have a feeling that it is some kind of "spiritually superior state" to not debate :)

if a person gets excited, agitated or unhappy in a debate ... that means such a person has some "error"/"problem", a strong vasana within ... which needs to be addressed. and a vasana cannot be addressed by keeping away from it... when i face the vasana then alone can it be addressed. for example : suppose i am afraid of darkness... by avoiding darkness i only do not allow the vasana to arise. it is only when it arises that i can address it. same way, if a debate makes one agitated, better not run away from it ... face it!

and if a debate does not agitate the person... such a one should be perfectly fine to debate / not debate !

If there were no inclination to share/discuss/debate spirituality then one would not join a forum :D especially given that it takes time to even register !!

Love!
Silence

4
General Discussion / Re: THIS FORUM
« on: February 15, 2018, 12:49:40 PM »
Dear ksksat27,
           :)
Quote
so here you go...i gave some food for debates in above lines... :)  :)
:) thats very good. thats how discussions can take place and people can mutually benefit.

1. But What makes you think Traditional Advaita is different from Bhagavan's teachings ?
2. How did you come to this conclusion ?
3. Did Ramana ever say his self inquiry method is new ?

Love!
Silence

5
General Discussion / Re: THIS FORUM
« on: February 14, 2018, 05:04:53 PM »
Dear Nishta,
        :)

Do we see the practical reasons why this forum is not very active ? most of our friends here are in monologue mode , not in a dialogue mode, leave alone debates!

i personally feel that unless we question, discuss, disagree and even debate lot of things will not be learnt.
and if i cannot tolerate a debate, that means i cannot handle a debate retaining calmness and that itself is a reason for me to involve in debate and try being calm... thats the only way i can work on that vasana.

Subramanian sir writes but mostly monologues. you have a thread where replying disabled ! :)

If one is only interested in a monologue why a forum , why not write in one's own blog ?

Love!
Silence


6
Friends,
       When we try to understand or appreciate Bhagavan, we should take a holistic approach to the teaching.
When Ramana said one thing and one place and another at a slightly different place, we need to properly study it conjunction, not by ignoring one part and accepting only one part. This is a standard approach : resolve "apparent" contradictions. That is how we would gain a proper understanding of what Bhagavan was teaching. The reason we see such problems is because language is limited. Self Knowledge is a Vision, when a sincere student approaches the teacher, the teacher tries to help the student see what he is already seeing. It is like a person who has taken a shadow for a ghost. The teacher sees it as a shadow, the student sees it as a ghost. The teacher wants to make the student see it as a shadow. Simply saying that is a shadow is not going to help... he is seeing a ghost following him.

This thread is a discussion thread on the aspects of Bhagavan Ramana's teachings that have an apparent difference ... at one place we see one statement and at another place we see a slightly different answer ... ill bring these out from the sayings of Ramana and then we will see how these apparent contradictions are best resolved. This would help us gain a clearer understanding of Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi's teachings.


Love!
Silence

7
General topics / Re: peace and love
« on: December 29, 2017, 08:34:51 PM »
But there are two levels of operation:
The "Relative" or from the stand point of imagination ... for example if someone asks "please give me your passport" we do not reply "that is a fancy imagination of yours" !
:)

the other of-course is where you revel.

Leaving, returning , leaving etc ... i have gone through this game and i know that it does not matter ... if not here, the mind imagines up some other place where one writes or if no where it could be in the head ... so why leave at all ? Let the story continue as it does ...

after-all its only an imagination and there is no need to give it much importance. but may be if we keep meeting like this online ... we may keep reminding each other not to take all this seriously ... often people do fall into the trap of taking life seriously , and most of us are not exceptions to it

Love!
Silence

8
General topics / Re: peace and love
« on: December 29, 2017, 08:29:25 PM »
Dear Beloved Abstract,
         :) You are a wise person and I understand that the story you are talking about is something we all tell ourselves.
All this is also such a story we are imagining continuously.

In Yoga Vasishta there is a story of mind :

Quote

The story of Mind, From Yoga Vasishta:

There is a formidable and desolate forest in which there was a man. He was with a thousand hands and eyes. Apparently very confused, he would strike himself violently with iron bars and run about crying. Running about like that he fell in a dark well with a hidden way out.

It took him some time to find his way out and then he slowly got out of the well into a thorny forest. Then again, departing and beating himself often, running and laughing he managed to enter a cool forest of plantain trees.

but he did not remain there for long. There also he started beating himself and running, he fell into the same well again ! He was as though drunk or semi conscious!!

Vasishta ji says: Having seen this for a long time , i held him by force ... and jolted him to consciousness. I then asked him " What is this ? Who are you? Why do you run in vain ?", thus asked, he said:
"I am no body, i do nothing. You are my enemy. Having seen by you, i am lost! Then , laughing, he gave up his limbs all around"
Thus in that forest, many men like him dwell, wandering about. That forest is there even today.

Sri Rama: Sage! What is that great forest ? What is it that they are intent on doing ?

Vasishta replies:

In this great forest of worldly existence, minds indeed wander about. They are lead by me , by discrimination, to supreme tranquility. Some, by disregarding me, fall down into hells. The forest of plantains is heaven. the affliction by sorrow is the thorn. "I am lost", when he said this, it was the cry of ego ... the feeling of me and mine ! The beatings are the blows of fancies or imaginations. They are indeed caused by oneself. The mind is reduced to a state of bondage only by its own imaginations and impressions. Like a silk worm in the cocoon one binds oneself by one's own imaginations and super-impositions.
This story of mind has been narrated to you. Contemplate on it with the mind , using this discrimination observe the mind and reject the fancies or imaginations of mind.

prahaaraaH kalpanaaghaataaH kriyante svayameva hi |
sa.NkalpavaasanaajaalaiH svairevaayaati bandhanam|
mano liilaamayaiH bandhaiH koshakaarakR^imiryathaa ||

प्रहाराः कल्पनाघाताः क्रियन्ते स्वयमेव हि।
सँकल्पवासनाजालैः स्वैरेवायाति बन्धनम्।
मनो लीलामयैः बन्धैः कोशकारकृमिर्यथा॥

The beatings are the blows of fancies (or imaginations). They are indeed caused by oneself. The mind is reduced to the state of bondage only by its own net of impressions of imaginations, just as the silk worm in the cocoon confines itself by bonds with ease.


9
Dear Nishta ji and Beloved Abstract ji,
         :) can we start another thread where this may be discussed.
This is very important and useful discussion.

Love!
Silence

10
Dear Beloved Abstract,
       :)

Why does one have to stop telling the story to be oneself ?
is it not enough to just see the story as story ?

suppose i am playing the role of rama in a drama ... do i have to stop the drama in order to be myself ? :)

Love!
Silence

11
Dear Nishta ji,
      :) What Beloved Abstract is saying makes sense, albeit unrelated to the post :D

and he is nice, he has a single line all the time :) ...
Love!
Silence

12
Dear Ananda ji,
           :)

Quote
Bhagavan seems to say that we can surrender without reservations and live in the moment joyously.It then seems that the Supreme will take our activities and implant the right thoughts at the right time, so that we need not apparently,try to conjure up thoughts to initiate critical action,(critical at that juncture as we perceive it ).Our life will be on autopilot governed by the supreme and we need not incessantly worry about anything.THings will be done in the best possible way and at the right time,and without any criticism from stakeholders dependent on us.
Yes. Please have full faith.
That God is also "I AM" or "Awareness" or "Presence" or "Being". So at-once available. Not far at all.

However I would like to add a few points Anand ji:

1. This world we experience is a long dream, it has no significance what so ever. As long as we think this is "valuable", we cannot really "let go" our hold and leave it to God. No matter how many times we tell ourselves "Let me surrender".
If i think that the stone in my hand is a diamond, its hard for me to leave it , drop it off ... for the fear or loosing it and God gives no assurance that it shall not be lost !! So I cannot let go ... but if i see it as only a piece of coal, what do i do ? God is the only diamond, rest all is just saw dust ! When this understanding dawns, surrender is natural. understanding of the unreality of the world plays a very vital role in making God the center of our lives.
But this understanding , some times take a little time ...

That is why Karma yoga is suggested : Do what you feel needs to be done and then accept the result , irrespective of what happens.
This attitude eventually matures to purna vairagyam. Purna vairagyam, Atma Jnanam and Self Surrender are one and the same.

2. Suppose we have some desires and want to surrender to God out of helplessness and seek his help ... That too is ok. Most people will say that this should not be so. My take is : With God, be absolutely clear and frank : "Oh God, I have this desire. I heard that this is unreal and yet I seek this and my own capacity being limited, seek your help. Things happen by your single Glance, Please help"

God listens. I do not say all the results shall manifest etc ... i do not know what will happen ... but things shall fall in place. We look at this world as cause-effect , which is the biggest illusion we sustain. The more we sustain this illusion, the less are the chances of seeing the miracles of God. To Sri Ramakrishna someone said :"How can anything happen by God's will, this hibiscus plant  gives red flowers will it give white flowers if god wills ?" and Sri Ramakrishna said "why not?" and LO! the next day the plant flowered a red and a white flower on the same branch ! Sri Ramakrishna  ran around the temple with that branch showing everyone the miracle of God ! This world is such a bizarre thing, there is no order ... all that is happening is an active imagination ... but that imagination is not by our individual but at the level of whole mind or God... so in my view faith in God is far far more powerful than any activity we do.
 

The greatest thing with Surrender and God is, one need not worry whether the surrender is complete, incomplete etc ... What ever it is, convey it to God and seek help. Make him your guru or friend ... and slowly it brings about a transformation. And as i said, that God is not far away, but here as "I AM", as "Awareness", "Presence", "Being".

Have no doubt. Have full faith ... and yet , do what needs to be done in a given event. Appropriate action... without worrying as to what will happen.

Love!
Silence

13
General Discussion / Science And Vedanta - Additional Material
« on: December 22, 2017, 03:13:16 PM »
Friends,
 I have created a page called Science and Vedanta , the main thread. This is for additional material either related to the argument directly or indirectly.
This is the place where we can comment or discuss these ideas.

Love!
Silence

14
General Discussion / Science and Vedanta - The Main Argument Thread
« on: December 22, 2017, 03:11:34 PM »
Friends,
       I am a student of science [ math actually] and also of vedanta.
In this thread I would like to explore some of the standard ideas of vedanta and science in conjunction.

I have been studying this subject from quite some time and here I would like to present some very technical and some not so technical arguments and ideas that really fall in line with vedantic thought process ... we shall also see how many of the arguments against the vedantic perspectives are not really solid or rigorous.

Well, i shall explain the technical aspects to the extent that I understand, almost layman terms. May take a few days to even elaborately explain some of the concepts. This thread is a technical one purely for the intellect to enjoy :)

I am also creating another page where we will share some videos that are from mainstream science and also would serve as a place where we can discuss related ideas.

Love!
Silence

15
Quote
The mind, which thinks, is also not 'I'. The ignorance [the absence of all dualistic knowledge] that is combined with only viṣaya-vāsanās [dispositions, propensities, tendencies, inclinations, impulses, desires, taste or liking to experience the objects of sensory perception] when all viṣayas [sensory perceptions] and all actions have ceased [as in sleep], is also not 'I'. Having eliminated everything mentioned above as not 'I', not 'I', the aṟivu [knowledge, awareness or consciousness] that stands isolated alone is 'I'. The nature of [this] knowledge ['I am'] is sat-cit-ānanda [being-consciousness-bliss]

so we have seen that the "voice" of "I" does not arise from the physical elements or the prana vayu etc.
The elements like earth, water etc which make this body are also there in the external world and none of them have a sense of "I".
so whence is this voice called "I" arising from.

Could it be from the mind ? Infact, this body is also nothing more than mind. If we remove sensations and sensation related experiences, where is a body ? if we observe closely we might find that we store "tension" in our shoulders etc ! that just goes to show that the body is simply a kind of conglomeration of those mental sensations , as if "solidified"

what about mind ? is the "I" in the mind ? The mind also is jada like the body, we will see this. By virtue of being an "object" it becomes jada. There is an interesting way Astavakra gita starts  this same discussion, he starts with prithvi earth , agni etc... not with the body but with the 5 elements. and then everything reduces down to them. mind is nothing other than these 5 elements either !! do we see that ? mind and the 5 elements are the same. because mind can perceive these 5 elements we see only these. because mind cannot perceive anything else, everything else boils down to these !! what a mystery !!

The verse in Ashtavakra Gita is :

Quote
VERSE 3:

न पृथ्वी न जलं नाग्निर्न वायुर्द्यौर्न वा भवान् ।
एषां साक्षिणमात्मानं चिद्रूपं विद्धि मुक्तये ॥१-३॥

You are neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor air or space. To liberate, know the witness of all these as conscious self. ॥3॥


These are called pancha maha bhutas, the 5 great elements that make everything. The Vedantic model is very systematic in analyzing the world. Anything we perceive, can be made up of only these 5 elements, because we have 5 senses. What is not seen, heard, touched, tasted, smelt etc ... cannot be perceived. Because we have only 5 senses. Even when we say "Magnetic Field", we are really talking from the point of view of an "observed phenomenon". I see that iron filings move in certain ways when in the presence of a magnet -- this is an observable phenomenon and therefore I "infer" a magnetic field. So the whole objective world has to be made up of these elements.

Now all these elements and their combinations are Jada by nature ... they are lifeless. Prithvi or Earth does not have a sense of "me". Water, fire, air, space ... none of them have a sense of "me". And this body is only a combination of such elements --- it too does not have a sense of "me". This the feeling called "I" cannot be the "voice" of any of these elements.

There is a beautiful example ... suppose there is an empty room and someone goes on knocking it... there will not be any response from inside, because there is really no one to "respond" ! The room itself does not say "Hey Look here! Stop tapping me like this... i dont like it". The room and its doors and windows are jada. They have no reactions of their own.

And the space in the room also does not respond. It does not say "dont disturb me". Because it is just the accommodating entity in whose presence the "room" can "be". So space has no response.

So who can respond ? If there is some "Person" inside , he responds. So every response is of a "person" inside.

Lets extend this to our body... the body is jada, made of the 5 elements and has no response of its own. the eyes, ears etc are like the doors and windoes of the room and the body is like that room. In the presence of "Awareness" any event is perceived ... though the mechanism is not "exactly" like the example above ... the Awareness has no reaction of its own. Awareness like the space in mind is simply the "Presence" which enables a reaction. Ashtavakra says its the witness. Its witness with respect to the objects of mind.

so who says "I" ? Who is the one who reacts and performs various actions ? Who is the "doer" or "Experiencer". Neither the body nor the Awareness are !!

We  discussed the example of a room with no one inside. And compared it to the body with only awareness [resembling space] inside. The body does not have a "like/dislike" , Awareness does not have "Like/Dislike" ... so whence is like / dislike coming up ?

Well ... even as I say this, its atonce available for everyone to see whether its true or not. There is no need to believe anything here. This is really what inquiry is all about! Let further see where it leads. Please notice this interesting point ... the truth value of this inquiry is not dependent on the authenticity of Bhagavan.  Infact Bhagavan spoke of this because this is the Truth, and is atonce available for all of us to directly see.

Ok, so we examined the body, which is like the room ... jada and has no likes or dislikes.
And we have examined the Awareness, which like the space accommodates all the thoughts etc, but has no reaction of itself.

So we are obviously left with only thoughts. Lets examine them now.
[Before we examine thoughts, lets also recognize that they themselves are also jada !! This is interesting. Being objects of awareness, they ought to be jada. they are made of the same 5 elements. all our thoughts are made of words ... they are made of ideas of forms, space, heat etc. they are based on the same thing. its not as if the world has these 5 elements and hence we have the thoughts of only these 5 elements ... the actuality is the mind is these 5 elements and hence the world we see is also the same.]

Lets continue our examination ... All thoughts are momentary... they come and pass away that very moment. The sorrow, worry, hurt etc which are really thought-formations ...appear to us as not momentary. They seem to have a sense of "Continuity" and in-fact they thrive on that "Continuity" ! how come this is possible ? Lets try to see... Suppose there is a dish I hate to eat. And I am in a situation where I have to eat it. :) I am intentionally taking a simple example. A complex situation is formed by a combination of simple situations.

so I am before this dish ... I have to take it. The first thought is "Pure Perception"... Eyes see the dish and true to their report we perceive the dish. That's the first perception. and as its the job of mind, it recollects all the memories and ideas that i have stored about the dish. And then from the memory arises a thought
T1: "I do not like this dish" , then the next thought...
T2: "But I have to eat it"
T3: "I cannot bear it"
T4: "This is terrible, even the smell is horrible"
T5: "This cannot be consumed! I wonder how people ever eat this"
...

Now plz see. T1 arose and vanished that very moment and then T2 came up. Between T1 and T2 there is a gap. So whats the "Common" entity between T1 and T2 ? Who is this "I" who is common between T1 and T2 ? It cannot be the Body... body is jada. It cannot be memory also, memory is jada! It cannot be awareness, Awareness has no "Reactions of its own. its just a witness"!!!
so who is this "I" that feels terrible ?

Its like a movie that's projected on a static white screen ...
P1: First the photo of a man is projected.
P2: P1, with hand slightly raised is projected
P3: P2 with hand slightly higher than that is projected
...

and what do we see ? We see a "motion". We see as if there is someone raising the hand. We do not see static pictures. How is this possible ? We have not recognized the "gap" and so ... the screen being "Static", we have attributed the continuity of the screen to the pictures and there appears to be a movie.

In vedanta this is explained with the example of a rolling ball of fire: Fire does not have shape and the shape of the ball is attributed to the fire. Ball does not glow, the glow of the fire is attributed to the ball! This is exactly the situation within! The Awareness does not have any like/ dislike ... the like/dislike of the thoughts is projected on it. Thoughts do not have continuity and the continuity of Awareness is attributed to the "I" which is common in the thoughts.

Really there is no "I" ... only a series of static thoughts that give the impression of a "continuous" entity!!! There is no "I" within ... only Awareness and the body ... with momentary thoughts. And yet ... an "I" seems to be "Formed". And that "I" , lets call it a "Role". Its all in memory in potential form... when the object is perceived, all related memories arise in a stream and a continuous entity called "I" appears to have been formed. And its this "I" that feels hurt, worried, troubled etc! A fictitious entity from the very beginning.

Where is this "I" really ?

Not asking a question , not reasoning about it ... just seeing ... directly ... where is it ?

Love!
Silence

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