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Messages - Pythagoras

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1
Hi all,

I would like to know your guy's thoughts on sexual energy? I am celibate, I hear one must convert that energy into spiritual energy as it travels from the root chakra up the spine. Idk what to do? Sometimes the energy is very intense

2
Dear ksksat27,

Your words are golden and all that is needed to be said.

Thank you, thank you.

Namaskar,

Pythagoras

3
pythagoras,

Quote
my main itch is that from whatever you said, I HAVE NO CONTROL WHATSOEVER. In other words, life is autopilot, it just happens on its own without our effort

Do you wish to have control?

 
Quote
Therefore no free-will, no effort because everything has been predestined. You have no control over what's to happen. Everything will happen accordance to God as it has always happened

If you are convinced about this, and that you have no choice to exercise,why not just leave it to God and be at peace and inner rest?Where does the 'itch' step in?

Namaskar

Ravi,

You seem not to understand either. All I want is the clarification: IF ALL IS THE WILL OF GOD. HOW CAN YOU SAY I HAVE EFFORT? I HAVE NO CHOICE. I JUST WANT A CONFIRMATION OR IF NOT WHY.

THE INDIVIDUAL AS THEY SAY HAVE FREE WILL, BUT UNTIL HE REALIZE HE DOESN'T HAVE FREE WILL. HE IS STILL AN INDIVIDUAL AND STILL HAS TO WORK HIS WAY AND DO SELF-INQUIRY. BUT THT IS NEITHER HIS EFFORT OR WILL. ALL IS IN THE HANDS OF GOD. SO HOW CAN YOU SAY "I MUST HAVE EFFORT. EFFORT IS NECESSARY."

YOU SAY YES THAT IT IS THE WILL OF GOD. LET HIM TAKE CARE OF IT. OKAY NO PROBLEM. I JUST WANT TO UNDERSTAND CORRECTLY, IF I AM GOING TO SURRENDER. HOW CAN YOU SAY THERE IS NO FREE WILL YET THERE NEEDS TO BE EFFORT? YOU ARE TAKING FROM THE STAND POINT OF BOTH THE INDIVIDUAL AND THE SELF.

We have been going on about this for a week and none of you guys have an answer or direct response to my questions but rather sidestep every question with some thing else.

4
Dear Nagaraj,

I have no care for contradictory as that was not my itch, you seem to have missed what my itch was.



--

5
Dear Eranilkumarsinha & Nagaraj

"Yes, from the stand-point of the Reality Itself, there is no creation and no dissolution. There is no bondage either, nor there is anyone who is doing spiritual practice, nor there is anyone who is seeking spiritual liberation, and of course, there is no one who is liberated.  One who is established in the Self sees this by his knowledge of Reality. Neither there is free-will nor there is destiny. This is the ultimate truth."

YES. This is ultimate truth. It seems that I have two stand-points. One from the Reality itself, and apparently an individual since I am arising these questions and the only question I have is about free-will and destiny only because I would like to clear it up. Once it is cleared up, what individual is there?

"I understand that you are attracted by the Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan. In my view, this is the best thing that can happen to an individual in this world. I can only say that when one has reached the state of Enquiry, there is nothing to worry about whatsoever, because Sri Bhagwan Himself has assured such a one that in the end all will be well.

However, I would like to add that one should push the Enquiry deeper and deeper, with perseverance and steadfastness, till the unreality of the ego-mind-body complex is revealed and the Substratum is realised. This, in my view, is the  one infallible way to reconcile the conflicting ideas, concepts and thoughts arising in the mind."

Yes. Very well as I agree. But my main itch is that from whatever you said, I HAVE NO CONTROL WHATSOEVER. In other words, life is autopilot, it just happens on its own without our effort. Of course we will carry on whatever we have been doing and our practice of self-inquire will not change since discussing this because whatever must happen, happens. So indeed effort will be there but I do not think we should think it is our effort because then it would become doership. Does that make sense?

I have never disagree that we do not need effort. All I have said was that we can do whatever we want, but it is only accordance to the will of God. Since I have said that, people have said "you can't just let babies do whatever they want", well as I have said, nothing will change. You will continue doing whatever you have done because it must happen, so you are not automatically going to let babies do whatever they want because your intuition won't let you and that is also from the will of God but what I'm saying is the doership should not there. Therefore no free-will, no effort because everything has been predestined. You have no control over what's to happen. Everything will happen accordance to God as it has always happened.

All in all, I only have this discussion is to make sure if I am understanding it correctly, contradictory may have arise because I am taking from both standpoints as I have realize now, I say there is no effort by I take that as the stand-point from Reality, but then again if I am taking the standpoint of Reality, why do these question arise? So there goes the individual stand-point. But free-will/predestined are my only questions, once that is cleared, the Reality standpoint will be the only things.

Namaskar,

Pythagoras

6
Dear Ravi,

Although I have tried to read it, I do not really understand it. Do you mind telling me the essence of it

Namaskar

7
Thank you Ravi,

Indeed I understand effort is necessary but I cannot accept that to think we have a choice to make an effort as many have said we "have" the choice.  If you can accept that we have no free will what makes you think we have the free will to put effort into our spiritual practice. I am not at all saying that effort is not necessary and whatever free will we have as an individual, putting that into spiritual practice can only be the best thing the individual can do. But time after time again, how can we say consciously say that it is our EFFORT.

Please check out this short interesting video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3AiOS4nCE

After watching, how can we say we have consciously make any effort when it has already been made 6 seconds before we decide to chose.

Do you really have a choice to Self-enquire? What make you think you do? We, like every objects, cannot do anything without the will of God, therefore I say effort is only up to God.

Namaskar



8
"Sri Bhagwan has also taught that there is state beyond effort and effortlessness, and up to that state of spontaneity, practice is sine-qua-non. Why? Because you are raising questions and doubts, and that certainly means you have strayed away from the Self, and not quite staying in the Self."

I agree 100%. Effort is a must, but I do not think it is up to us to have that effort or not because if think that we need effort we are thinking we are the doer. Therefore effort is only for the individual. But although I agree that we are not the body, mind, the doer, since i am asking these questions, this means that I have been gone down to the separate individual again because such questions would not arise if I believe I was not the doer. So again, so long as i am asking these questions effort is a must, but i do not believe it is not up to me for the effort. It seems contradictory. How can this be?

Namaskar.

9
I ACCEPT THAT I AM NOT THE BODY, I AM NOT THE DOER, I HAVE NO FREE WILL, I HAVE NO CHOICE.

YET IT STILL MAKES ME AN INDIVIDUAL BECAUSE I STILL HAVE QUESTIONS.

I BELIEVE THAT THERE CANNOT BE ANY EFFORT BECAUSE WE HAVE NO FREE WILL AND IT IS NOT UP TO US.

BUT ARE YOU SAYING, BECAUSE I AM AN INDIVIDUAL (SINCE QUESTION AND DOUBT ARISES) THAT I MUST HAVE EFFORT.

SO NOW I AM SAYING, OKAY SURE, I WILL CONTINUE MY SELF-INQUIRE AS USUALLY BUT IS IT REALLY MY EFFORT?? BECAUSE IN TOTALLY IT IS FROM THE WILL OF GOD. SO EFFORT WILL HAPPEN WHEN IT HAPPENS BECAUSE WHAT IS BOUND TO HAPPEN WILL HAPPEN AND THERE IS NO ESCAPING. THAT IS WHY I SAY THERE IS NO EFFORT.

BUT YOU SAY THERE IS NO EFFORT ONLY IF YOU HAVE REALIZE YOURSELF AND EFFORT IS STILL NECESSARY (FOR THE INDIVIDUAL) UP UNTIL REALIZATION HAPPENS.

BUT IT IS NOT UP TO US IS IT??? IT CANNOT BE.

10
if you have indeed reached a state of Awareness where you no longer identify with the 'I am the body' and 'I am the door' ideas, these questions and doubts should not have arisen in the first place. In that state only Self remains, and you are the Self, or you are yourself,  AND  OF  COURSE  TO  BE  YOURSELF  REQUIRES  NO  EFFORT.

Well lets say in daily life, the "I am the doer idea" is gradually decreasing but the Self is not completely apparent yet, therefore effort is necessary. OK I AGREE.

BUT HOW CAN THAT EFFORT BE MINE? IT IS THROUGH THE WILL OF GOD. SO INEED EFFORT IS NECESSARY FOR THE INDIVIDUAL BECAUSE HE HAS NOT SEEN THE SELF YET, BUT AT THE BIGGER PICTURE HE IS NOT DOING ANY EFFORT AT ALL BECAUSE IT IS THE WILL OF GOD.


THE WAY I LOOK AT IS IT THAT THINGS IN DAILY LIFE HAPPEN AND I TRY TO KEEP IN MIND WHENEVER I CAN THAT I AM NOT THE DOER. SO TAKING THIS STANDPOINT OF THE SELF, THERE IS NO EFFORT. HOWEVER, I AM STILL MIX BETWEEN THE KNOTS BECAUSE I HAVE NOT FULLY REALIZE THE SELF SO EFFORT IS NECESSARY BUT IT IS ONLY THROUGH THE WILL OF GOD.
BUT BUT, FREE WILL AND DESTINY ARE ONLY TO THE BODY, SO WHY AM I WORRIED ABOUT IT? BECAUSE I BELIEVE THERE IS NO EFFORT, IT WILL HAPPEN IF IT HAPPENS, I HAVE NO CONTROL, NO CHOICE, NO FREE WILL. SO I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW CAN ONE HAVE EFFORT? EFFORT IS ONLY FOR THE INDIVIDUAL BUT IS IT REALLY HIS CHOICE? HE HAS NONE.

YES I ACCEPT THAT I AM NOT THE BODY BUT QUESTION STILL ARISES. THAT MEANS I MUST KEEP INQUIRING AND HAVE EFFORT. BUT, IT IS NOT MY EFFORT THOUGHT, IT IS GOD'S WILL. THEREFORE I HAVE NO EFFORT.

THE QUESTION ARISES THEREFORE THAT MEANS THE SELF IS NOT EVIDENT TO ME YET. BUT IS THAT MY CHOICE? I HAVE NO CHOICE.

SO WE SAY THAT FREE WILL IS ONLY FOR THE INDIVIDUAL AND THE INDIVIDUAL MUST HAVE EFFORT. SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT FROM THE INDIVIDUAL AS APPARENT I AM RIGHT NOW, THAT I HAVE A CHOICE/FREEDOM/ETC? BUT I DENY AND REJECT THAT I HAVE NO CHOICE AND THAT I HAVE NO FREE WILL.


INDEED EVERYTHING RAVI AND ERANILKUMARSINHA SAYS ARE VERY TRUE BUT SOME REASONS I AM NOT GETTING IT.

I THINK I AM CONFUSED AND HAVE MIXED BOTH OF THE STANDPOINT OF THE INDIVIDUAL (BECAUSE I STILL ASK QUESTIONS) AND THE SELF (BECAUSE I BELIEVE THERE IS NO FREE WILL)

I DON'T KNOW HOW I CAN CLEAR THIS UNDERSTANDING UP.

NAMASKAR

11
Dear Eranilkumarsinha and Ravi

Thank you all for your detailed and well thought posts thank you guys for trying to help me have a clearer and better understanding, please bear with me as I am still a novice and still learning so sometimes I ask ignorant questions. I appreciate your time and effort.

Namaskar,

Pythagoras


12
Dear Ravi,

I have gone over them and from my understanding, the viewpoints are from a feeling of separation.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

You: You must have effort

Me: You say I must have effort as If I had a choice as any choice is only for the aspirant who feels a sense of separation. Therefore there
is no effort at all in my spiritual practice because it is not up me that is making the choices. Therefore you do have a free will and you can do anything you want (in a sense of non-doership.), but that free will is not up to you paradoxically.

You: Do we just leave it to the child to go its wanton ways- all play and no work? We discipline it and see that the child pays attention to the studies and works hard to come out with flying colors/grades in the examination. We do not leave it out saying that whatever the child is destined for will anyway come to pass, whatever be the effort or lack of it that it may either do on its own or forced to do by its parents.

Me: Well that is not up to you and that stand point is only from a sense of separation that you have responsibilities to do or that you must do something. So do you really have a choice?

- - - - - - - - 

Now you seem to think that this is flawed as I am not looking for an agreement rather I would like to know where am I seeing this wrong?

With tender love,

Pythagoras



13

I have been responding all along to your questions assuming that they are 'open' questions and that you needed a response.I understand now that you already are clear on this and that you have a definitive point of view,and are only looking for responses that affirm that point of view.
If your objective is to enlighten us with some of these ideas,I can only submit that I am aware of these things and more-only I do not agree with it.I will leave it at that.

Namaskar

Dear Ravi,

I am not looking for a response that affirm 'that' point of view, but to know if I am right or not and my replies are simply to investigate this manor as I am trying to figure this out because I see that you & the devotees have an extensive amount of knowledge on these topics and perchance from my viewpoint and yours, we can dissect this to help me have a better understanding.

I am not posting this to try to enlighten anyone. It is that whatever I have said, whatever you said does not seem to resonate with me merely because it could be that I do not understand clearly and this is why I keep am posting in hopes I can try to find the right answer/understanding.

From my 'viewpoint' can you understand where I am coming from? It just does not make sense to me.

14
Just what is our experience right from Childhood?A child goes to school and learns lessons and passes examinations.What is our advice to the child? Do we just leave it to the child to go its wanton ways- all play and no work?We discipline it and see that the child pays attention to the studies and works hard to come out with flying colors/grades in the examination.We do not leave it out saying that whatever the child is destined for will anyway come to pass,whatever be the effort or lack of it that it may either do on its own or forced to do by its parents.


Sir, you have no control over that, even if you wanted to, how can you when it is already in the will of God, the thought itself is already predetermine and must carry on what it is suppose to do.

An argument often arises in opposition to the concept of no responsibility. If there is no responsibility, what is to prevent an individual from being irresponsible, perhaps even indulging in the desire to steal or murder? If stealing or murder happens, then it happens, if not, it doesn?t. This is true both before and after a person questions the concept of responsibility. Everything happens as it must, whether or not the concept of responsibility exists. It is very clear that the concept of responsibility has not prevented stealing and murder from happening in the past. Everything is part of the impersonal functioning of Consciousness, including stealing and murder. In addition to producing suffering, the concept of responsibility encourages a sense of moral outrage to arise when the event occurs, and a sense of moral retribution when the "perpetrator" has been caught and punished. Both reinforce the concept of separation. Of course, there is no perpetrator. We must clearly understand, however, that the widespread beliefs in the concepts of responsibility and retribution are also part of the functioning of Consciousness. It is all happening as it must. (Even though the sage has no sense of personal responsibility, he/she is highly unlikely to steal or murder because the sage sees no separation between individuals.

Please read Sections 5.9, 5.10, 5.11, 5.12 http://www.faculty.virginia.edu/consciousness/new_page_8.htm#5.9.

"Breathing goes on by itself while the deluded individual thinks it is he who is breathing. Thoughts come from outside, arising spontaneously through intervals of mental vacuum, and he thinks it is he who is thinking. The thoughts get transformed involuntarily into action, and he thinks it is he who is acting. All the while, he is doing nothing but to misconstrue the actions of the Totality as his own action."

Therefore the free will one thinks one is doing such an example: putting in effort in self-inquiry, can only be the standpoint from the individual. The who one thinks he can make a choice whether to do anything he likes or not, it is still not up to him. But only by thinking he is the doer. So I say, anyone can do anything they want, have the free will to do whatever they would like, but it is not their free will because whatever action, thought, must already be preordained.

Furthermore, no choice even in itself can ever be entirely free because genetics and conditioning are always inseparable components. Thus, in traditional thinking, it is in fact impossible to determine that a choice was ever really freely made; hence, it is never really possible to assign blame, credit, or responsibility for any choice.

Namaskar,

Pythagoras

15
Dear Pythagoras,

Looking at your questions and reflections, i believe and recommend you read the lectures of Swami Rama Tirtha. Most of your doubts and questions will assuredly be cleared. Swami Rama Tirtha was a giant among Sages.

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Dear Pythagoras,

Thank you for your recommendation. Is there by chance you can link me on what he says on predetermination or free will? I cannot seem to find it.

Namaskar

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