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Ramana Maharshi => General topics => Topic started by: mcozire on March 25, 2014, 08:54:13 PM

Title: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: mcozire on March 25, 2014, 08:54:13 PM
Hey everyone!

I have become a little perplexed from trying to understand Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj view on Reality, and Truth.

I am starting to come to this view that, it is in fact this 'world', the 'body', this present manifestation that is the actual truth, and that the spiritual realms of heavens and all that are completely fabricated, and god also. Also that when this life is up, it's over. I am coming to this understanding, from both Sri Ramana, and Sri Nisargadatta. Especially Sri Nisargadatta. He simply says that it is the body, that is the food stuff, for the conciousness, and that conciousness is everywhere present.

Ok this is no problem, but then he goes onto say that this creation came spontaneously, with out reason, or volition, in that sense then, is this whole thing just random? Isn't that what the atheists say? That there was no creator, it is just random, by chance, spontaneous.

He also goes onto completely deny reincarnation, in the sense that there is no one actually here, so who would re incarnate? In that sense then my existence is completely meaningless, I literally spontaneously came about, I live this pre-scripted life, and then I die. That is that. Reincarnation is a story we tell ourselves, just to get by, and so are the heavens? And god? That is the picture I am getting from Nisargadatta at the moment.

There certainly is no trace of there being, a being who is actively engaged in controlling, looking out for, helping, engaging with, befriending all the beings currently alive. It appears as if it is just the scientific explanation of a mechanical play unfolding, the three gunas at play as Nisargadatta says.

I think what is frustrating me at the moment is that, I guess on one level, I would like to feel 'protected' and actively loved by a supreme being, one that I can have a relationship with, rather than just being a spontaneous accident in conciousness, where I actually don't exist, and I will die, and that's the end of that.

Can someone help me find my feet again in all this :/

Many many thanks,
Mark.
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: Jewell on March 25, 2014, 10:43:16 PM
Dear mcozire,

Seeing Your question,i recognized many things very similar which were subject of my long analisis and,well,my own questioning. I am not sure if i actually understood anything properly,but there is certainly the way i am thinking and something i believe to be true.

How i see it,Maharaj is speaking from some ultimate stand point,than,it is important to whom He said all that,what He actually wanted to convey,and why. Some things i took like literal,some i did not,coz many things are said coz of ego only and our present identification with the body. Also,i accept now only the things after i see them directly through my experience. Sure there is a certain trust from the begining,in essence of teaching,but that also i analised. Well,we all do that. That's for practice.
My own thinking is that the world and other realms are true,or untrue in a same way. Only,this present reality i take for more real,for simple reason it is actual,and i experience it momentary. It has that 'Now' factor,which no other has. But i believe there are many realms appart from this world. I simply trust in all these stories about them. I feel this way.

What i took like illusion is my own subjective look on same,and this limited perception too. I believe Nisargadatta wanted to point on this 'me','i,'you',ego itself when speaking about reincarnation. Who is there to reborn? Just sum total of desires,memories,fears,longings... There is no actual entity. On other hand,He says that there is actual identity,like pure,not egoistic,which is inherent in nature. That actualy explains why each of us is unique and different,why even realised people act in very specific way. But that is also not explanation,coz all happening and apparent acting is part of karma,destiny,play in general. Who would know... ::)
So,somehow,i cannot say there isn't,but i cannot say there is too,coz that would apply duality where there is non. So,i took that like many identities of God,many faces of God,or the Self. That Self is also explanation for me,who is controller of everything. I like to think God,the Self. And because all this is the Self,wholevworld,absolutely everything,there is no need for any controll coz control itself is inherent in it and creation in general. Like some laws,like law of karma which makes balance. This is some not concluded view. I do not even wish to have one anymore,coz i realised,it will be just supperficial and not complete. I personaly like to think about God who become all this and plays with Himself. I feel more comfortable like this.  I see from many things that it is the Self only here,but i like to call it God. Maybe it is coz of protection,but i feel more is there. I simply love God,trust in Him,and ivcannot call myself God at present,coz i feel this subjective,limited ,little 'i'. I somehow feel both is true.

From all what You said,i think that only our personal existence is meaningless,coz it is falce,and there is no me,you. We do not live,there is just life. Totality. I think Nisargadatta says that. Not personality,not mine,not selfishness,just One,just the Self,just God.
Whatever i conclude it must be wrong,coz my picture is very limited at present. So i do not think much about these now. But i cannot accept one thing,and that is mechanical part of all this happenings. It somehow destroys all beauty,all complexity,all greatness of everything. I like to think more like it is something uterly alive. Not dead. And i believe in destiny,so see this split. I cannot even explain to myself. :)
The point is,i realised,many things Maharaj said depend a lot on listener. Not so much coz of Ultimate Truth,how much coz of fact what is needed for that particular listener and braking of His ego. I have read many things He said pretty much different. But,the essence is always the same. There is no ego,no you no me,no birth,no death,just Reality,the Supreme,perfect,Undivided. I took that like,there is only God,without selfishness,without ego. All else,the world,Souls,is yet to be seen and understood.
I hope this help in any way. But do not took it like sugestion,follow your own heart and experience. Coz all differ,and this is just one incomplete thinking of me.


With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: Jewell on March 25, 2014, 11:33:48 PM
Just one thought more,thinking about what You said,about Controler. I believe all is in control of God Almighty,but not like someone sitting on the throne,but in a way that,all is Him,and Him only,so there contol even isn't question anymore. He does not have what to control,all is spontaneus happening of Him and through Him.

Than,all is the way it is supposed to be,and all is fine. Just Divine play of Supreme God,who is you,who is me,who is the world,who is existence and non existence,absolutely everything.

Thank You for the question dear Mark. I now realise that if i truly think that,where is the question of liberation and struggle?! If all is Him,than all is His play,no more space for me ...

But can this little i understand that,that is the question.
Thank You!

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: Vladimir on March 26, 2014, 12:28:23 AM
Namaste, Mcozire,
Do you really want to find your feet again in Maya?
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: mcozire on March 26, 2014, 02:10:35 AM
Hi there Vladimir. You made me laugh to myself, no I suppose I don't want to find my feet in maya again.
I suppose I can look at my original question as if it were the mind, looking for things to latch onto, and be happy with them for a time.

When in fact what it means to be liberated, is from all these concepts and notions we fill our mind with?

But I can't help asking you know.

Thank you Jewell for your very considerate reply, and I get exactly where you are coming from.

The problem I have though is that it seems that the highest teaching, teaches us that this manifestation, came about spontaneously, with out reason, and that it is just 'doing it's thing'.

Where as the other picture would be that the 'One god' created all that is, with a plan, a design, with a purpose. They seem contradictory. You see I am perfectly ok with accepting, either one, I would just like to be clear on the matter.

You see we hear of the Supreme Personality of God, to me this means 'I', the jiva, even if it is 'unreal' at the highest juncture, can have a relationship with a personal god, that is all powerful etc. That I can pray to this god for guidance, for help, for direction, and that it would come.

However the picture that Sri Nisargadatta paints, is all together quite different. Never is there a mention of this kind of God. He has said in fact "God is the end of all desire and knowledge."

From what I can gleen from his teachings, and Sri ramanas, for the moment is that there is essentially, a 'film' showing at the moment, the ego 'I' is this one typing now, the character in the film, the one trying to get free, ask about god etc. and then there is the silent witnessing awareness, a 'dimensionless point' as Sri Nisargadatta explains it, simply observing the film going on. There is no god, other than this silent witnessing awareness, the 'Self', but this Self is not a personal god like I have mentioned above where the character in the film can have a relationship with.

So the question that remains is, can this 'film-character' this 'I' the jiva, have a relationship with a 'film-all-powerful-god'? And can it hang out with him/her in another realm after death.

OR

Is this just a spontaneous manifestation unfolding, with just the awareness of it occurring.


Many many thanks,
Love Mark.

Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: Jewell on March 26, 2014, 03:55:04 AM
Dear Mark,

Well,my way of thinking is not that God created this all in a way i can picture some man doing it. For the simple reason it is too much complex creation for something like that. For me God is something all pervasive,Totality,who can be both,personal,or not. I believe He is both in the same time. How,i do not know. But if He is AllMighty,what is not possible for Him. I guess this is my explanation,coz i do not have any better. I don't know if He has some plan in view,and i do not think so. I actually do not know.

In the same time,God is our own Self,one and only reality. Only thing which seem to be unreal is this notion of 'me',the ego.

I also think,so long we believe we are ego,we can pray to God,or to Guru,coz we anyway do all sorts of other ego things. Is that a must,i cannot say. I believe it is our own Self which helps us when we pray. That's why prayer gets answered when we have faith and we pray intensly. That's why we create our own reality in some way.
 I do think it is spontaneus,everything. Maharaj message is that we are That,ultimatievly. The Self. And there is nothing but the Self. That is our true nature. But for me that Self is not this self i know,but something higher and greater. That same All Powerful God. Not me,but Him.
 And,at present,i prefer to call it God,coz i feel this subjective feeling of myself,this little i,and i feel all i do and say comes from it. That's why i feel more right to say God,not the Self,coz 'Self' is pulling me toward thinking it is ego self. I saw(for myself strictly),that it is best to drop my own existence,and picture of God is helping me with that. And again,like i mentioned,i believe God is much more of person or all else,which i can ever comprehend.
I think Maharaj message is in essence 'There is no birth or death'. It is for ego only. There is only the Self. So there is a self enquiry. To realise Our true nature. For me,that same Self is God too. It can be everything.  I somehow do not see the difference.
So what i wanted to convey is that nothing is wrong in personal God,coz we also form personal relation with our Guru too. I do not see any difference. Sure,there is a big difference when approach is question,coz we can have only one. I seem to have both,but i believe,it only looks like that. God is separate only to relation with ego,without it,it is One Supreme Reality and Truth.

For instance,i believe Bhagavad Gita is true,and all that happened. And in the same time,all what happened has great symbolic too. Both possible in the same time. I call this Greatness of God. And i am aware that do not explains anything,but how can i even understand something so great. Is this one more mind play,i do not know. I will see.

I hope You get the picture,if that is even possible coz i am not sure i am getting it. :)
What is most important in the end,is to continue to read Maharaj and Bhagavan coz their words have the power to do miracles and burn this silly ego. And ego frustrated is a good thing i guess. Like You in a way mentioned it to Vladimir.
Ultimatievly i think now,both,the Self and God are just medicine for ego sikness. What is the Truth,we will see.

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: Jewell on March 26, 2014, 04:45:08 AM
Thinking more about what You said,dear Mark,it appears that You think mostly on contradiction betwean the words of Maharaj,and for instance Bhagavad Gita,or Shrimad Bhagavatam. I thought same also. But now,i seem to fail to see the difference betwean them. Like it is only difference in traveling,but not in destination. Destination is in both ways non duality. And difference from stand point. I somehow see it this way...
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: Jewell on March 26, 2014, 05:40:48 AM
And...i did it again. Mark,You are asking one thing,i am answering something completely from my point of view... Like two deaf men speaking. ;D

Conclusion:

 :-X
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: Ravi.N on March 26, 2014, 05:57:37 AM
Mark/Jewell/Friends,
I truly appreciate the wonderful perspectives that jewell has shared here reconciling apparent (and not actual)contradictions about God,self,Reality.
Mark,what you have expressed -"It appears as if it is just the scientific explanation of a mechanical play unfolding, the three gunas at play as Nisargadatta says"-This is what is known as the SAnkya viewpoint and although advaita Vedanta makes use of some elements of this standpoint ,it also questions this view and rejects this as unsatisfactory!
The dilemma that you have brought out is something that besets most seekers.The actual problem is to do with Neo advaita-and not the traditional advaita Vedanta.Neo advaita dispenses with all the fundamentals that are absolutely essential for spiritual growth and maturity-It dispenses with upAsana(all forms of worship,Meditation,beneficial Karmas)and Iswara(Personal God).It summarily rejects all this preliminary and very very important phases of spiritual growth as unnecessary excursions of what it deems as 'ego' and posits what it calls as the Ultimate Reality or Truth-The unchangeable Self.
Traditional Advaita Vedanta does not have this one sided ,extreme view.
Jewell has wonderfully pointed out this when she says-The Journey is different but the destination is the same.(paraphrased).While we may make use of all the good pointers by neo advaitic teachers(I do not mean that Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj is one-For he also belongs to a lineage of gurus-Only that the traditional aspects of this lineage are ignored by most publishers of his talks and works),it is best to keep our mind and heart open to all that is best in the dvaitic (dualistic)traditions as well.This would mean devotion to personal God,Relationship with Him,Surrender to Him.Have this faith in Him as the purushottama,The Supreme Being who is in all things as the inner ruler and also above all things,and who listens to our prayers and who knows what is best for us and who will give us all the love and Knowledge(That we can ever hope to get rejecting Him as unreal!).
I will post a few excerpts from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna that deals with the questions that you have raised.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: Ravi.N on March 26, 2014, 06:12:26 AM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,Chapter 6-The Master with the Brahmo devotees:

There are three classes of physicians: superior, mediocre, and inferior. The physician who feels the patient's pulse and just says to him, 'Take the medicine regularly' belongs to the inferior class. He doesn't care to inquire whether or not the patient has actually taken the medicine. The mediocre physician is he who in various ways persuades the patient to take the medicine, and says to him sweetly: 'My good man, how will you be cured unless you use the medicine? Take this medicine. I have made it for you myself.' But he who, finding the patient stubbornly refusing to take the medicine, forces it down his throat, going so far as to put his knee on the patient's chest, is the best physician. This is the manifestation of the tamas of the physician. It doesn't injure the patient; on the contrary, it does him good.

Three types of gurus
"Like the physicians, there are three types of religious teachers. The inferior teacher only gives instruction to the disciples but makes no inquiries about their progress. The mediocre teacher, for the good of the student, makes repeated efforts to bring the instruction home to him, begs him to assimilate it, and shows him love in many other ways. But there is a type of teacher who goes to the length of using force when he finds the student persistently unyielding; I call him the best teacher."

No finality about God's nature

A BRAHMO DEVOTEE: "Sir, has God forms or has He none?"

MASTER: "No one can say with finality that God is only 'this' and nothing else. He is formless, and again He has forms. For the bhakta He assumes forms. But He is formless for the jnani, that is, for him who looks on the world as a mere dream. The bhakta feels that he is one entity and the world another. Therefore God reveals Himself to him as a Person. But the jnani-the Vedantist, for instance-always reasons, applying the process of 'Not this, not this'. Through this discrimination he realizes, by his inner perception, that the ego and the universe are both illusory, like a dream. Then the jnani realizes Brahman in his own consciousness. He cannot describe what Brahman is.
"Do you know what I mean? Think of Brahman, Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute, as a shoreless ocean. Through the cooling influence, as it were, of the bhakta's love, the water has frozen at places into blocks of ice. In other words, God now and then assumes various forms for His lovers and reveals Himself to them as a Person. But with the rising of the sun of Knowledge, the blocks of ice melt. Then one doesn't feel any more that God is a Person, nor does one see God's forms. What He is cannot be described. Who will describe Him? He who would do so disappears. He cannot find his 'I' any more.

Illusoriness of "I"

"If one analyses oneself, one doesn't find any such thing as 'I'. Take an onion, for instance. First of all you peel off the red outer skin; then you find thick white skins. Peel these off one after the other, and you won't find anything inside.
"In that state a man no longer finds the existence of his ego. And who is there left to seek it? Who can describe how he feels in that state-in his own Pure Consciousness-about the real nature of Brahman? Once a salt doll went to measure the depth of the ocean. No sooner was it in the water than it melted. Now who was to tell the depth?

continued....
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: Ravi.N on March 26, 2014, 06:19:56 AM
Friends,
Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna continued...

Sign of Perfect Knowledge

"There is a sign of Perfect Knowledge. Man becomes silent when It is attained. Then the 'I', which may be likened to the salt doll, melts in the Ocean of Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute and becomes one with It. Not the slightest trace of distinction is left.
"As long as his self-analysis is not complete, man argues with much ado. But he becomes silent when he completes it. When the empty pitcher has been filled with water, when the water inside the pitcher becomes one with the water of the lake outside, no more sound is heard. Sound comes from the pitcher as long as the pitcher is not filled with water.
"People used to say in olden days that no boat returns after having once entered the 'black waters' of the ocean.
"All trouble and botheration come to an end when the 'I' dies. You may indulge in thousands of reasoning, but still the 'I' doesn't disappear. For people like you and me, it is good to have the feeling, 'I am a lover of God.'

Personal God for devotees

"The Saguna Brahman is meant for the bhaktas. In other words, a bhakta believes that God has attributes and reveals Himself to men as a Person, assuming forms. It is He who listens to our prayers. The prayers that you utter are directed to Him alone. You are bhaktas, not jnanis or Vedantists. It doesn't matter whether you accept God with form or not. It is enough to feel that God is a Person who listens to our prayers, who creates, preserves, and destroys the universe, and who is endowed with infinite power.
"It is easier to attain God by following the path of devotion."
BRAHMO DEVOTEE: "Sir, is it possible for one to see God? If so, why can't we see Him?"
MASTER: "Yes, He can surely be seen. One can see His forms, and His formless aspect as well. How can I explain that to you?"

Intense longing enables one to see God

BRAHMO DEVOTEE: "What are the means by which one can see God?"

MASTER: "Can you weep for Him with intense longing of heart? Men shed a jugful of tears for the sake of their children, for their wives, or for money. But who weeps for God? So long as the child remains engrossed with its toys, the mother looks after her cooking and other household duties. But when the child no longer relishes the toys, it throws them aside and yells for its mother. Then the mother takes the rice-pot down from the hearth, runs in haste, and takes the child in her arms."

Continued...
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: Ravi.N on March 26, 2014, 06:24:24 AM
Friends,
Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna continued...

Why so much controversy about God?

BRAHMO DEVOTEE: "Sir, why are there so many different opinions about the nature of God? Some say that God has form, while others say that He is formless. Again, those who speak of God with form tell us about His different forms. Why all this controversy?"

MASTER: "A devotee thinks of God as he sees Him. In reality there is no confusion about God. God explains all this to the devotee if the devotee only realizes Him somehow. You haven't set your foot in that direction. How can you expect to know all about God?

Parable of the chameleon

"Listen to a story. Once a man entered a wood and saw a small animal on a tree. He came back and told another man that he had seen a creature of a beautiful red colour on a certain tree. The second man replied: 'When I went into the wood, I also saw that animal. But why do you call it red? It is green.' Another man who was present contradicted them both and insisted that it was yellow. Presently others arrived and contended that it was grey, violet, blue, and so forth and so on. At last they started quarrelling among themselves. To settle the dispute they all went to the tree. They saw a man sitting under it. On being asked, he replied: 'Yes, I live under this tree and I know the animal very well. All your descriptions are true. Sometimes it appears red, sometimes yellow, and at other times blue, violet, grey,
and so forth. It is a chameleon. And sometimes it has no colour at all. Now it has a colour, and now it has none.'
"In like manner, one who constantly thinks of God can know His real nature; he alone knows that God reveals Himself to seekers in various forms and aspects. God has attributes; then again He has none. Only the man who lives under the tree knows that the chameleon can appear in various colours, and he knows, further, that the animal at times has no colour at all. It is the others who suffer from the agony of futile argument.

"Kabir used to say, 'The formless Absolute is my Father, and God with form is my Mother.'

"God reveals Himself in the form which His devotee loves most. His love for the devotee knows no bounds. It is written in the Purana that God assumed the form of Rama for His heroic devotee, Hanuman.

continued...
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: Ravi.N on March 26, 2014, 06:39:00 AM
Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna continued...

Vedantic Non-dualism

"The forms and aspects of God disappear when one discriminates in accordance with the Vedanta philosophy. The ultimate conclusion of such discrimination is that Brahman alone is real and this world of names and forms illusory. It is possible for a man to see the forms of God, or to think of Him as a Person, only so long as he is conscious that he is a devotee. From the standpoint of discrimination this 'ego of a devotee' keeps him a little away from God.

"Do you know why images of Krishna or Kali are three and a half cubits high? Because of distance. Again, on account of distance the sun appears to be small. But if you go near it you will find the sun so big that you won't be able to comprehend it. Why have images of Krishna and Kali a dark-blue colour? That too is on account of distance, like the water of a lake, which appears green, blue, or black from a distance. Go near, take the water in the palm of your hand, and you will find that it has no colour. The sky also appears blue from a distance. Go near and you will see that it has no colour at all.

"Therefore I say that in the light of Vedantic reasoning Brahman has no attributes. The real nature of Brahman cannot be described. But so long as your individuality is real, the world also is real, and equally real are the different forms of God and the feeling that God is a Person.

"Yours is the path of bhakti. That is very good; it is an easy path. Who can fully know the infinite God? and what need is there of knowing the Infinite? Having attained this rare human birth, my supreme need is to develop love for the Lotus Feet of God.
"If a jug of water is enough to remove my thirst, why should I measure the quantity of water in a lake? I become drunk on even half a bottle of wine-what is the use of my calculating the quantity of liquor in the tavern? What need is there of knowing the Infinite?


Friends,We clearly see how although the Master expounds the Nirguna(attributeless)Brahman ,he also emphasizes the worship of Saguna Brahman(Brahman with attributes,Personal God ) as indispensable for attaining it.The Gospel is a wonderful book and all aspirants will immensely benefit by reading this book-The teachings are immensely practical and the Master always gives a 'handle' for the aspirant to catch hold of,and find his way through uncertainty and doubt.
I am not suggesting this book just because it is 'My Favourite' but because of the immensely Practical and simple way that The Master explains the most abstruse aspects of advaita,at the same time always striking the Right balance between theory and practice,emphasizing the later.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: Nagaraj on March 26, 2014, 07:39:59 AM
Dear Mark, friends,

i just have the following to share -

Once the Buddha was staying in a town in northern India called Kesaputta where the Kalama clan lived.  The Kalamas visited the Buddha and asked him:

" There are some holy men and priests, Venerable Sir, who come and claim that only their teaching is right and condemn the teachings of others. Then some other holy men and priests came to Kesaputta; and they, in turn, claim that their teaching is right and others wrong.  As a result, doubt has come to us.  Which of these holy men and priests spoke the truth "

The  Buddha replied: ?It is proper to doubt in things that are doubtful.  Come, O Kalamas:

1) Do not believe anything based on revelation
2) Do not believe anything through tradition handed down from the past
3) Do not believe anything through hearsay (gossip, rumour, etc.)
4) Do not believe anything because it accords with the holy scriptures
5) Do not believe anything through logic
6) Do not believe anything because it is a point of view.
7) Do not believe anything through having considered the reasons
8') Do not believe anything because one is convinced of some theory
9) Do not believe anything through the testimony of some reliable person
10) Do not believe in anything thinking, " This person is a great preacher ".
 

" Kalamas, when you yourselves know what is evil, blameworthy and censured by the enlightened wise, abandon those things.  When you yourselves know that these things are good, not blameworthy, but praised by the wise, accept and practise them "



We have to jump into the waters and find for ourselves by our own first hand experiences, take all hints and tips from all corners (आ नो भद्राः क्रतवो यन्तु विश्वतः ), be open minded, but just keep continuing your journey by yourself by trust in God. Merely all answers are only given to quieten the questioning mind. All questions are as good as all the answers. Questions are untrue, in reality, but in our journeys, they are a necessary evil :) Both questions and Answers are two thorns, one used to remove the other and and both to be thrown off in the end.

Face the darkness, be there around and see it for yourself, and your will get to know yourself. Above all, realise YOUR OWN TRUTH, and do not try to realise somebody else's truth. Finally whether it matches with some truth is only academics. The only Goal is is to be at peace, no mater what comes and goes, your inner equipoise remains undisturbed. All else is just academics! If you are at peace at a cost of not falling in any teaching or religious school, it does not matter! Be yourself!

Best,
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: Jewell on March 26, 2014, 04:22:23 PM
Quote from Sri Ravi:

Quote
   "All trouble and botheration come to an end when the 'I' dies. You may indulge in thousands of reasoning, but still the 'I' doesn't disappear. For people like you and me, it is good to have the feeling, 'I am a lover of God.'   

This is one,just beautiful,beautiful thought! I am deeply thouched with it...
What more to say after something like this.
I completely agree with You that true Advaita something very different than how is presented nowdays. Somehow,all these phylosophies only confuse. And they distord the true words of our Masters.Trust in this,trust in that... But,the fact is,we already trust in something,our heart feels it,and that is the only Truth there is. In the end,only silence is pontent. And our heart speaks the language of silence.

Thank You,dear Sir!

Dear Sri Nagaraj,

This is one beautiful post and message. Be yourself! Like Mark,i was faced with same dilema. If i follow my Master words,i forget about Sri Krishna,and if i follow Sri Krishna,i am infidel to my Master. But then i said to myself:"You fool! Your Master IS Sri Krishna,Your Krishna IS your Master!" I failed to understand them both. Who knows what Maharaj would say to me,coz He always adressed specific kind of people. What heart says is what Master will say. That is the message of both Maharaj and Bhagavan,of Buddha,of Jesus. The truth is only one,how will we call it means little. If love from God is there,who can say this is not right. If Sri Krishna,if Jesus come to us,than this is our truth. Like You said,all is just academics. Truth is in our hearts,in us. And so far i saw,only that feeling is right. Away with mind,away with reason! Who can ever understand the greatness of God and His real image. We shape it according to our understanding.
Thank You,dear Sri Nagaraj!

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: mcozire on March 26, 2014, 04:48:03 PM
Thank you so much Ravi.N, Nagaraj, Jewell, it is so wonderful to have such wise and kind people here to take comfort in. Many thanks again.

I feel refreshed reading these comments, but also a little sad, and or lost, or something, but hope as well!

When I read the words of Sri Ramakrishna, saying there must be 'Intense longing (enables one) to see God', I felt at once sad in my heart, I think it was because I felt I didn't have intense longing, but then I wondered, is not this saddens, the very longing?

I guess I feel like I am in a part in my life where I am 'between two banks' my old life is changing, but I do not see anything in front of me? Or something :/

I think what is worrying me the most at the moment is that, I am to be married soon, and I am delighted about it! But also, I feel as if I have no particular desire for any kind of work! But I must work to support my future family. In fact, it is strange, I feel desireless, yet restless, when I look around I do not see anything I wish to do, yet I am restless to do something!

Or perhaps there is just desire there to be doing something, but nothing in particular, .. he he.. as you can see I'm quite confused!

At night I can mentally wipe away all the things that come in front of me, even comes in front of my mind, can I wipe away 'myself', and be ok with that, and then I do, and I am left in that empty awareness, but I do not stay there for long.

I know that my only true desire is truth, I know this for certain, but sometimes it feels as if that the search for god doesn't 'work' with the world? Or something?

Anyways, forgive me for my ramblings, many many thanks for your replies and help. I do feel in my heart that it is the one thing, in many variations. And when I look back on it, my problems only came about when I tried to think out Sri Nisargadatta view on Reality, which I know he would have emphatically shot down!

So much thanks, so much love,
God bless.
Mark.
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: Jewell on March 26, 2014, 06:00:44 PM
Dear Mark,

How You described Your feelings and thoughts,is something,i think,we all are going through more and less. It is hard battle indeed. But thinking deeply about it,i think it is hard battle only for ego. I aslo found myself in these contradictory urges and struggles,when on on hand we don not feel the need to live active life,and than,there is actual desire to live it.
See,analising myself i came to understanding that i do not feel desire to ingludge in all sorts of wordly thing,and i wish only rest from all this,from myself mostly. But than,going deeper,i saw i actualy want it in one hand,only,i want it in my way. :)
But even that is not completely true. This ego needs food,needs desires,needs hope. When at some point that hope is taken,it is left empty handed,nowhere to go,nothing to do,nothing to hope for. And when it sees how its desires are completely contradictional,how anything except God cannot give him happiness,how it cannot even truly say that it wants something,coz these wantings seem to be so delusional and vain,it found itself in darkness. But this darkness is good. I think that is the fight betwean light and darkness,Reality and dellusion. Like that very struggle Sri Arjuna is going through. And Sri Krishna ask Him to fight,to go through everything dettached.
But it is hard,very hard. But,also,very possible.

I think some urges come from God,some from this ego,but i what i saw so far,all this sadness is just ego sadness. There is only why,and we can reveal it through deep analisis only. Why i have found like helpful to myself is to face it. Completely! To see what it is.

Like both Maharaj and Bhagavan would say:" To whom is sadness,to whom is indiference,to whom is pain?!"
Don't worry about future,to whom is future?. Let God,let Your own Self guide You and do what ever is necessary coz we are not doers in the first place. I am telling that to myself all the time. Like Sri Krishna said(in my own words),Leave fruits to Myself,You just fight unattached.

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: Ravi.N on March 27, 2014, 06:34:27 AM
Mark,

Quote
I think what is worrying me the most at the moment is that, I am to be married soon, and I am delighted about it! But also, I feel as if I have no particular desire for any kind of work! But I must work to support my future family. In fact, it is strange, I feel desireless, yet restless, when I look around I do not see anything I wish to do, yet I am restless to do something!

Entering into wedlock is a Huge responsibility and quite a noble one as well if lived with selflessness and in a spirit of service.Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

Traits of a true devotee

"There are certain signs by which you can know a true devotee of God. His mind becomes quiet as he listens to his teacher's instruction, just as the poisonous snake is quieted by the music of the charmer. I don't mean the cobra. There is another sign. A real devotee develops the power of assimilating instruction. An image cannot be impressed on bare glass, but only on glass stained with a black solution, as in photography. The black solution is devotion to God. There is a third sign of a true devotee. The true devotee has controlled his senses. He has subdued his lust. The gopis were free from lust.

You are talking about your leading a householder's life. Suppose you are a householder. It rather helps in the practice of spiritual discipline. It is like fighting from inside a fort. The Tantriks sometimes use a corpse in their religious rites. Now and then the dead body frightens them by opening its mouth. That is why they keep fried rice and grams near them, and from time to time they throw some of the grains into the corpse's mouth. Thus pacifying the corpse, they repeat the name of the Deity without any worry. Likewise, the householder should pacify his wife and the other members of his family. He should provide them with food and other necessities. Thus he removes the obstacles to his practice of spiritual discipline.

Those who still have a few worldly experiences to enjoy should lead a householder's life and pray to God".

There are several wonderful guidelines for the householder to live by-Fundamentally one should learn to give up one's likes and dislikes and perform all actions in a spirit of non-attachment.

The True thing is not to let desire govern one's works but to do what is required to be done whether one has the inclination or not.What needs to be done has to be done-Be it earning money,looking after other members of the family,and all other duties that are incumbent on a Householder.Alll these have to be considered well and one should then enter the Householder's Ashrama with one hundred percent commitment and trust in God.

Wishing you the very Best.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: mcozire on March 30, 2014, 11:29:34 PM
Many thanks Jewell, and Ravi.N.

I find both your words and advice comforting, and I will surely revisit them many times.

Thanks again,
Much love,
God bless,
Mark.
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: ksksat27 on April 04, 2014, 07:19:12 PM
Hey everyone!

I have become a little perplexed from trying to understand Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj view on Reality, and Truth.

I am starting to come to this view that, it is in fact this 'world', the 'body', this present manifestation that is the actual truth, and that the spiritual realms of heavens and all that are completely fabricated, and god also. Also that when this life is up, it's over. I am coming to this understanding, from both Sri Ramana, and Sri Nisargadatta. Especially Sri Nisargadatta. He simply says that it is the body, that is the food stuff, for the conciousness, and that conciousness is everywhere present.

Ok this is no problem, but then he goes onto say that this creation came spontaneously, with out reason, or volition, in that sense then, is this whole thing just random? Isn't that what the atheists say? That there was no creator, it is just random, by chance, spontaneous.

He also goes onto completely deny reincarnation, in the sense that there is no one actually here, so who would re incarnate? In that sense then my existence is completely meaningless, I literally spontaneously came about, I live this pre-scripted life, and then I die. That is that. Reincarnation is a story we tell ourselves, just to get by, and so are the heavens? And god? That is the picture I am getting from Nisargadatta at the moment.

There certainly is no trace of there being, a being who is actively engaged in controlling, looking out for, helping, engaging with, befriending all the beings currently alive. It appears as if it is just the scientific explanation of a mechanical play unfolding, the three gunas at play as Nisargadatta says.

I think what is frustrating me at the moment is that, I guess on one level, I would like to feel 'protected' and actively loved by a supreme being, one that I can have a relationship with, rather than just being a spontaneous accident in conciousness, where I actually don't exist, and I will die, and that's the end of that.

Can someone help me find my feet again in all this :/

Many many thanks,
Mark.

Mark,

Beautiful, your questions are beautiful,  you have studied Nisarghadatta , that is beautiful,  you want to be loved by God and feel that sense of etenrtiy and protection that is beautiful.

Please do read and reply to my answers.

First thing, first,  it is never easy to understand Sri Nisarghadatta Maharaj.

Whatever you have interpreted from his sayings are really not fully correct.

Sri Maharaj was a fully enlightened jnani from Dattatreya sampradaya.

The main teaching of Sri Maharaj is to say in that "I am" feeling all the time.  He promised us that it will reveal all mysteries.  Please do that to your best.

Also if you want to get his teachings well, have a photo of Dattatreya and Nisargha and sincerely pray to him.

It works for me like that.

Maharaj character is this: suddenly to embrace a dog eater and next moment he will throw away a supremely pious person.  We can never predict.  But with humility one can really really get a lot from him.  You read his seeds of consciousness.  it is really wonderful.

I dont know how I shall put it, but Maharaj never meant atheism.   Re-incarnation he did reject in his very last days because Maharaj stabalized himself into a peculiar nirvana absolute state from where he was beyond the witness of the hiranygagarba princple.  You message me, we will discuss a lot about Maharaj.  He is a ocean, everytime you read about him you get a new meaning.

Once he told that people earn punyas by reading his teachings but he is not cared about it.

Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: ksksat27 on April 04, 2014, 07:32:34 PM
Mark,

This is taken from Ultimate medicine, conversations on the last year of the Master's physical life. Amazing indeed.


Maharaj: For meditation you should sit with identification with the
knowledge "I am" only and have confirmed to yourself that you are not
the body.  You must dwell only in that knowledge "I am"--not merely
the words "I am."  The design of your body does not signify your
identification.  And also, the name which is given to you or to the
body is not your correct identity.  The name which is imposed on you,
or the name which you have heard about you--you have accepted that
name as yourself.  Similarly, since you have seen your body, you
think you are the body.  So you have to give up both these
identities.  And the indwelling knowledge that you are, without
words, that itself you are.  In that identity, you must stabilize
yourself.  And then, whatever doubts you have, will be cleared by
that very knowledge, and everything will be opened up in you... 

Visitor: My question is, is there a useful way for arriving at moksha
and are there particular signs for distinguishing which paths are the
best for us?

M: You just listen to all this, whatever is being said here; follow
that, abide in that and be that.  Don't ask me about other paths. 
The path I am expounding, you listen to that, and abide in it...

V: I am interested especially in practice, how to start it.

M: Forget all about physical disciplines in this connection.  I am
telling you that the indwelling principle.  "I am," the knowledge
that you are, you have to *be* that.  Just be that.  With that
knowledge "I am," hold on to the knowledge "I am."

V: It is difficult to abandon attachment to action; even in this way
it is not easy always to remember "I am," the truth of the atman.

M: You know that you are sitting here; you know you are, do you
require any special effort to hold on to that "you are"?  You know
you are; abide in that.  The "I am" principle without words, that
itself is the God of all Ishwaras.
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: Beloved Abstract on April 16, 2014, 07:21:55 PM
i would say ... do not get too attached to any view on truth
views come and go , they are not truth itself
instead , investigate the self and see in the stillness if there is any boundary between you and truth
 :)
Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: mcozire on April 17, 2014, 03:40:33 PM
Hey everyone!

Sorry only checking back in now.

Thank you so much ksksat, yes indeed, the I AM meditations are what I have grown most fond of, and a part of my mind knows that this is where it is, no doubt. Than you for that passage from the Ultimate medicine, it really does say it all.

When I hear, Christ say 'Abide in me, as I abide in you' I think of it in this way, to remain in the 'I am'

Thank you again, I may drop you a message from time to time :)

"Investigate the self and see in the stillness if there is any boundary between you and truth

Thank you Beloved Abstract, this really resonated with me.


Where I am now at the moment, is I am wondering how the mind creates such problems, even with things so simple. How do we have so many 'main' religions, and then so many sects within those religions, how has the mind made such a mess, of something that is so simple?

God is one, beyond the concept of one. There is no god, except god.


I guess now, I really am just wanted to be with that one, and I am realising that I am using the wrong tool, the mind, as in it wants to categorically, systematically, know what god is, which is the real 'one'. But that's not how it works is it?

So I think I really need to move from the mind, to the heart now. I feel like almost throwing away all my books, and even my computer at times.

Many thanks for all your comments, and support. This really is a wonderful place.

God bless,
Mark.

Title: Re: Getting to terms with Sri Nisargadatta Maharajs view on the Truth.
Post by: ksksat27 on April 20, 2014, 06:05:05 PM
Hey everyone!

Sorry only checking back in now.

Thank you so much ksksat, yes indeed, the I AM meditations are what I have grown most fond of, and a part of my mind knows that this is where it is, no doubt. Than you for that passage from the Ultimate medicine, it really does say it all.

When I hear, Christ say 'Abide in me, as I abide in you' I think of it in this way, to remain in the 'I am'

Thank you again, I may drop you a message from time to time :)

"Investigate the self and see in the stillness if there is any boundary between you and truth

Thank you Beloved Abstract, this really resonated with me.


Where I am now at the moment, is I am wondering how the mind creates such problems, even with things so simple. How do we have so many 'main' religions, and then so many sects within those religions, how has the mind made such a mess, of something that is so simple?

God is one, beyond the concept of one. There is no god, except god.


I guess now, I really am just wanted to be with that one, and I am realising that I am using the wrong tool, the mind, as in it wants to categorically, systematically, know what god is, which is the real 'one'. But that's not how it works is it?

So I think I really need to move from the mind, to the heart now. I feel like almost throwing away all my books, and even my computer at times.

Many thanks for all your comments, and support. This really is a wonderful place.

God bless,
Mark.

dear Mark,

until you feel from your Heart to throw away the mind, dont throw it away for other's sake. be it atheism doubt , be it whatever it is,  stay with those disturbing thoughts for some time.  one day from innermost recess you will throw away all that.

until that moment, please dont throw away your mind's murmurs.  because it will get suppressed and again start later.

there are so many subsects because each mind is very very unique.  one rose is simply flowering in the Garden of God only for that mind.

until you find your rose,  all the sub sects will show itself until your mind catches That which will lead it go back from where it emerged.