The Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

Ramana Maharshi => General topics => Topic started by: Jyoti on August 08, 2013, 12:44:53 AM

Title: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Jyoti on August 08, 2013, 12:44:53 AM
As I am not an Indian, Hindu mythology sometimes is confusing for me.
Two questions often come to my mind:
- Why do Shiva & Uma have children but Vishnu & Lakshmi have none?
- Why do Shiva & Uma have sons only, but no daughter?
Books about Hinduism I read often state that this reflects the preference for sons and the aversion for daughters in the Hindu society (because of dowry).
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Ravi.N on August 08, 2013, 07:20:38 AM
Jyothi,
Good observation.I will briefly place a few more observations for your consideration.
1.Brahma is the Lord of Creation and both he and his consort Saraswati do not have temple dedicated to them.Brahma is not worshipped.Vishnu and Shiva are worshipped with their consorts.
2.Vishnu is the Sustainer and he is the one who descends as avatar to destroy the 'Bad Ones' in this world.He and his consort are born and are worshipped as such.
3.Shiva is the Destroyer and yet he and his consort  have two sons Ganesh and Karthikeya who in turn have consorts.They are worshipped as well.Shiva is the one who is worshipped by the Asuras as well.He Grants boons to asuras and Vishnu is required to tackle them later!

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Nagaraj on August 08, 2013, 10:48:11 AM
Jyoti, you always ask the most unexpected questions :) initially looking at your name i presumed you to be from india and wondered how questions that you ask come from you :)

Vishnu has a son, Shashta, Aiyappan, when he became Mohini and begot this wonderful child from Shiva.

(http://www.ayyappatemple.in/images/ayyappa6.jpg)

Also, the Cupid God, Manmatha is said to be of Vishnu's source only and some times, he is considered as his child. i do not have more information, as i myself have never thought in detail about why Vishnu and Lakshmi have no children.

Personal musings, Vishnu is neither male, female or the third. Shiva had to give half of his body to Parvati and revealed Ardhanaariswara, however, Vishnu Himself is Lakshmi, or Lakshmi herself is Vishnu, they are eka swarupa, not two. Only one.

What is Vishnu:

viShNO  vEvEshti vyApnOti iti vishnuh - That which pervades everywhere is Vishnu. Such being the case, there is no another. There is no question of children.

--
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 08, 2013, 10:56:10 AM
Dear Nagaraj,


Sri Soundarya Lahari says Manmatha is the son of Amba.   Amba and Vishnu are the same.  Saint Tirunavukkarasar says
that without Hari, there is no wife for Siva. 

Arunachaa Siva.
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Nagaraj on August 08, 2013, 11:00:26 AM
Saint Tirunavukkarasar says
that without Hari, there is no wife for Siva. 

Thanks sir, reflective thoughts. Also, from a trusted source, it was revealed that in Tirupati, it is actually Mohini swarupa as told by a top priest there. it seems the idol has long hair, like a woman, and there are many mysteries surrounding it.

Some say it to be Murugan also.

wonderful thoughts sir, very reflective...
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 08, 2013, 11:05:13 AM

Dear Nagaraj,


Saint Arunagiri Nathar says that Tiruvenkatam (Tirupati) is Muruga temple only.  There are songs about Tiruvenkatam Murugan in
Tiruppugazh.  Sri Venkateswara is said to have long hair (as you have stated) and there are also small breasts and accordingly
it is Amba's idol only.  With heavy alankaram the breasts are hidden and the long hair behind is not seen.


Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Jyoti on August 08, 2013, 11:25:21 AM
Shiva is the one who is worshipped by the Asuras as well.He Grants boons to asuras and Vishnu is required to tackle them later!

Namaskar.
Is this not Devi's job?
She is a great demon fighter I read (Mahisasura, Bhandasura, Raktabija and so on).
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 08, 2013, 11:37:13 AM
Dear Jyoti,

In many instances, the boons given by Siva were wrongly misused by them and 'Vishnu came to the help of Siva.
eg. Vritthasura.

Devi is also a demon killer but it is in some other stories.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Nagaraj on August 08, 2013, 11:43:19 AM
The Gods are different aspects of same Single source, the aspect of caring, loving, affection, forms the Mother aspect, that is the Devi Tatva. The aspect of protecting from the wicked etc forms the Vishnu aspect, and the aspect of destruction is Rudra, and the aspects of creation is Brahma. These are all in the same source as your would like to see.

If you are inclined to Devi worship, then all the aspects of protection, care, destruction, creation, are found in Her. She is Poorna, complete absolute. Or if you are inclined to worship Shiva or Vishnu or any other God.

--
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Nagaraj on August 08, 2013, 11:47:32 AM
Just like it is the aspect of tongue to taste, the eyes to see the ears to hear and so on. but they are all part of the same one
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Jyoti on August 08, 2013, 11:18:45 PM
Why do Hindus not want daughters, not even the gods?
This confuses me - on the one hand you have all those powerful goddesses, on the other hand Hindu couples check the baby's sex before it is born and abort the girls.  ???
Where does that dowry tradition come from, is it from vedic times?
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Ravi.N on August 09, 2013, 07:37:07 AM
Jyothi,
Hinduism(Sanatana Dharma) is very profound and it cannot be understood by people who are caught up in the materialistic ideas and fancies.The Purusha and Prakruti aspects cannot be treated as 'Genders' but are To be treated as Principles.We should not mix up the 'Beliefs ' of common people and extrapolate it and foist it on the Deities in the puranas or Vedas.

I am posting the response to your query regarding Brahma Vishnu and Shiva in the Kanchi Mahaswami Thread.Please read it there and before you go through it,just pause a while and consider that these are profound Truths expounded by sages and not  infantile imagination of imbeciles caught up in their fancies and desires of sons versus daughters!

Please take your time to read and assimilate what is stated there.If you still have doubts,just read it again.If doubts continue,Just carry on with your sadhana and read the same passage again after an interval of time.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Nagaraj on August 09, 2013, 10:34:44 AM
Jyothi,

it appears you seem to gather information from unauthentic sources. It is important to be sure about the source and their reputation and credibility. There are innumerable sources for information in the web, but most of them are bogus and spread wrong facts.

Your observation that Hindus do not want daughters is untrue. I am not able to yet to figure out which God did not want daughters. But a general fact that yes, families prayed fervently for sons and not daughters since 12th or 13th century till the end of 18th century because of dreaded invasions who forcibly took away the girls from homes and sometimes even deserted later and so on. These fears led families to a fear in having daughters and they naturally preferred sons.

--
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Nagaraj on August 09, 2013, 10:42:05 AM
Jyothi,

regarding Dowry, let me present you the following excerpt:

Dowry was not a part of the Indian marriage before European influence crept into the society. The earliest example of Europeans practicing the dowry in India, the case of Mumbai, which was presented as part of the dowry when Princess Catherine de Braganza of Portugal was married to King Charles II in 1661. The native population disliked practicing dowry, as they believed that this would lead "obliged to buy them husbands". Writes Alex Knox, when addressed to David Doig, Lord Provost of Montrose,

"As I observed before, their marriages are all conducted by the parents during the parties infancy, the expence of this ceremoney, which is considerable according to the ranks of the persons married, is always from the bridegroom's family, nor is it customary to give any fortunes with their daughters, because it should not be said they were obliged to buy them husbands, for this custom it seems they despise the Europeans very much."

(Wikipedia)

--

Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Ravi.N on August 09, 2013, 11:28:53 AM
Jyothi/Friends,
With regard to Brahma Vishnu and Shiva I am posting excerpts from the Talk of Kanchi Mahaswami in the thread dedicated to his Talks.
The other social aspect concerning the status of women in Indian Society-I warmly recommend the Talk by Swami Vivekananda,so very incisive and objective and insightful.
Here is an excerpt:
"When I hear Western women denounce the confining of the feet of Chinese ladies, they never seem to think of the corsets which are doing far more injury to the race. This is just one example; for you must know that cramping the feet does not do one-millionth part of the injury to the human form that the corset has done and is doing — when every organ is displaced and the spine is curved like a serpent. When measurements are taken, you can note the curvatures. I do not mean that as a criticism but just to point out to you the situation, that as you stand aghast at women of other races, thinking that you are supreme, the very reason that they do not adopt your manners and customs shows that they also stand aghast at you.
Therefore there is some misunderstanding on both sides. There is a common platform, a common ground of understanding, a common humanity, which must be the basis of our work. We ought to find out that complete and perfect human nature which is working only in parts, here and there. It has not been given to one man to have everything in perfection. You have a part to play; I, in my humble way, another; here is one who plays a little part; there, another. The perfection is the combination of all these parts. Just as with individuals, so with races. Each race has a part to play; each race has one side of human nature to develop. And we have to take all these together; and, possibly in the distant future, some race will arise in which all these marvellous individual race perfections, attained by the different races, will come together and form a new race, the like of which the world has not yet dreamed. Beyond saying that, I have no criticism to offer about anybody. I have travelled not a little in my life; I have kept my eyes open; and the more I go about the more my mouth is closed. I have no criticism to offer".

Please refer to the talk-Women of India by Swamiji:
http://www.vivekananda.net/Lectures/WomenOfIndia.html (http://www.vivekananda.net/Lectures/WomenOfIndia.html)

Namaskar.

Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Jewell on August 09, 2013, 02:02:47 PM
Dear friends,

I actualy dont know from where is exsactly originating that custom,like Sri Nagaraj quoted,probably from Europe. But I know that we have it in Serbia. It is only custom,some follow it,some not,but it is still more or less  alive in rural Serbia. I remember my grandma said to me that her parents gave huge gifts for her marriage. My grandpa know to say when teasing her,that he only married her coz she was rich. :D We call that custom "miraz". From the day girl is born,all mothers start to collect things for her marriage.

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Jyoti on August 09, 2013, 06:51:17 PM



Jyothi,

it appears you seem to gather information from unauthentic sources. It is important to be sure about the source and their reputation and credibility. There are innumerable sources for information in the web, but most of them are bogus and spread wrong facts.
Well, it seems true that in India (and in China too, because of the only one child politics of the communist party) there are more men than women:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_states_and_territories_ranking_by_sex_ratio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_sex_ratio


The other social aspect concerning the status of women in Indian Society-I warmly recommend the Talk by Swami Vivekananda,so very incisive and objective and insightful.
Here is an excerpt:
"When I hear Western women denounce the confining of the feet of Chinese ladies, they never seem to think of the corsets which are doing far more injury to the race. This is just one example; for you must know that cramping the feet does not do one-millionth part of the injury to the human form that the corset has done and is doing — when every organ is displaced and the spine is curved like a serpent. When measurements are taken, you can note the curvatures. I do not mean that as a criticism but just to point out to you the situation, that as you stand aghast at women of other races, thinking that you are supreme, the very reason that they do not adopt your manners and customs shows that they also stand aghast at you.
That is true: Wearing corsets and speaking critical about foot deformation is hypocritical.


Jyothi,

regarding Dowry, let me present you the following excerpt:

Dowry was not a part of the Indian marriage before European influence crept into the society. The earliest example of Europeans practicing the dowry in India, the case of Mumbai, which was presented as part of the dowry when Princess Catherine de Braganza of Portugal was married to King Charles II in 1661. The native population disliked practicing dowry, as they believed that this would lead "obliged to buy them husbands". Writes Alex Knox, when addressed to David Doig, Lord Provost of Montrose,

"As I observed before, their marriages are all conducted by the parents during the parties infancy, the expence of this ceremoney, which is considerable according to the ranks of the persons married, is always from the bridegroom's family, nor is it customary to give any fortunes with their daughters, because it should not be said they were obliged to buy them husbands, for this custom it seems they despise the Europeans very much."

(Wikipedia)

--
Thank you for this information, I didn't know that.  :)
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Ravi.N on August 09, 2013, 08:22:25 PM
Friends,
In a lighter vein,a Good friend had posted this in David's blog:

Recently, I thinking about Sri Ramakrishna's devotion to Kali and Sri Ramana's devotion to Arunachala.
My mind wandered a little bit and I then imagined a quarrel between Kali and Arunachala over their sons - Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Ramana.

The quarrel goes like this.
Kali to Arunachala - "A fine husband you are ! You have enticed away all my sons "

Arunachala - "Why ? What is it I have done now ?"

Kali - "Look at my son - Ramana. He was with me at Madurai. And then you enticed him away to Tiruvannamalai. He left Madurai saying - 'I have in search of my Father left......' What about me ? Why coudn't he say - 'I have in search of my Mother left....' ?.
Not only that. When I asked him to come back, he talked some high sounding philosophy to me - 'the Ordainer controls the fate.......blah... blah'. As if I don't know all that.He wrote all those songs in praise of you and nothing in praise of me.
It was the same with that Seshadri. He was with me in Kanchi. He left me and ran away to you.
And what about Jesus - 'I and my Father are one'. Bah ! Why coudn't he say - 'I and my Mother are one'?
Here Kali pauses for breath and Aruanchala seizes the opportunity to have a word.(Men must wait for their womenfolk to pause for breath; then only can they squeeze in a word before the next onslaught begins)

Arunachala - "Fine, I accept your arguments about my sons - Jesus, Ramana and Seshadri. But what about your son - Ramakrishna. You wrapped you him around your finger so much, that he looked upon his own wife (Sarada) as yourself. Then, what about your other sons - Ramprasad, Muthuswamy Dikshitar, Shyama Sastri. All of them clung to your pallu and never cared to even look at me. All of them sang in praise of you only. All of them - Mamma's boys "!

Kali (a little pacified now) and smiling complacently -"Yes, you are right about Ramakrishna and others. In their case, I ensured that they were always with me and resisted all your tricks and blandishments".

Arunachala (in a further bid to mollify her) now says - "And it is simply not true that Ramana ignored you and did not sing songs in your paise".

Kali in surpise - "When did he ever sing about me ?"

Arunachala - "When Ganapati Muni sang the Uma Sahsranamam, did not both the Muni and Ramana himself confirm that the final 300 verses or so were inspired by Ramana ? The Muni was only a mouthpiece when it came to those 300 verses and Ramana was the real author.

Not only that. Did not Ramana give liberation to both his biological mother and the cow Lakshmi (both of them belonging to the female sex).

And he was the first enlightened person to clearly, un-equivocally, un-ambigiously state that when it comes to Spiritual practices - Women have the same rights as Men do. Even the Buddha hesitated before finally accepting women in his Sangha.

So you see, Ramana was if anything, more partial towards his female devotees (your daughters) than his male devotees (my sons).

Kali now completely mollified, goes off in search of Ramana, Ramakrishna, Seshadri and her other sons and Arunachala heaves a sigh of relief."

 :)
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Nagaraj on August 09, 2013, 08:28:22 PM
Somewhere Narada has played some trick :D which has resulted in such wonderful exchanges. Thanks for sharing... excellent!!!
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Jyoti on August 09, 2013, 08:36:29 PM
@Ravi N.
(http://www.smileyparadies.de/girls/smilie_girl_084.gif) (http://www.smileyparadies.de)
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Ravi.N on August 10, 2013, 08:14:23 AM
Nagaraj,
I consulted Narada and he has this to say:
"I do admit having engineered quite a few quarrels but certainly not this one.wonder how i missed this and allow another to seize the opportunity and initiative!
I think i am not updating myself about the happenings in the Bhu loka.
Thanks very much for the update!
Narayana!Narayana!Narayana"  :)
 
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Jyoti on August 11, 2013, 12:03:31 AM
Well, according to this Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narada) Narada never married but claimed to have 60 wives.
Perhaps he's just too busy these days? (http://www.smilies.4-user.de/include/Frech/smilie_frech_111.gif) (http://www.smilies.4-user.de)
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Ravi.N on August 11, 2013, 07:04:57 AM
Jyothi,
Plain logic should tell us that Narada would have been better updated with the going on in this world with just one wife!What to speak of 60 wives!Wikipedia is outdated :)
You may like to explore stories about Sage Narada:
http://www.webonautics.com/mythology/narada.html (http://www.webonautics.com/mythology/narada.html)
Namaskar
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 11, 2013, 07:08:45 AM
Dear Jyoti,

I have already written to you that you should not trust Wikipedia for understanding Hindu Puranas.  Read regular
websites or the relevant English books.  Wikipedia is many a times wrong and not merely outdated.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Some questions about Hindu mythology
Post by: ksksat27 on August 21, 2013, 11:57:31 PM

Dear Nagaraj,


Saint Arunagiri Nathar says that Tiruvenkatam (Tirupati) is Muruga temple only.  There are songs about Tiruvenkatam Murugan in
Tiruppugazh.  Sri Venkateswara is said to have long hair (as you have stated) and there are also small breasts and accordingly
it is Amba's idol only.  With heavy alankaram the breasts are hidden and the long hair behind is not seen.


Arunachala Siva.

Dear Nagaraj and Subramaniam sir,

I think in this scenario I have to disagree both of you strong  :)

This is like opening a big jar containing the mysteries as that in Padmanabha Swamy temple.

This is related to the faith of lakhs and lakhs, crores and crores of Hindu devotees spread across all over India and all over all sub castes.

I think the deity there is only Lord VenkataRamana the incarnation Srinivasa of Vishnu.

Because Sage of Kanchi has categorically praised the shrine as Perumal shrine only.

Besides, there are other 6 hills like Garudadhri, Venkatadri, Narayandri etc.

Tirumala Hills and Arunachala Hills are having strong connection --  Mother first went to Tirupati and then only she was able to settle down at Immobile Arunachala.

Arunagiri nadar's thirupugazh says about a shrine Tirumalai ,  it should be a unique shrine it is not definitely this Thirumala hills.

Though I finally found peace and solace only at Arunachala,  in my earlier days while associating with Hare Krishna,  I was having lot of devotion to Govindha nama and this lord Tirumala perumal.

There is a magnetic force that pulls everybody there to Tirumala.

Though I agree in a nirguna stand point all Gods are One,  in Saguna plane,  definitely Tirumala is abode of Lord Vishnu only.

Sri Lakshmana Swami who very rarely praises shrines or temples other than Arunachala,  once told a mother of a body that Self itself has manifested in the form of Lord Venkateshwara in Tirumala.

There are lot of testimonies to prove that that indeed is a Vishnu idol only.

Also this has to do with the faith and sincerity and loving devotion of lot of people so it is not enjoyable on our part to believe these theories.

Last but not least Sri Vaishnavas are well know to belittle Shiva many times.  And they catch this episode easily and put a counter argument saying Advaitis, Shaivas also shatter their faith by spreading these mystery stories.

So taking into consideration all this, we better leave it to be a Vishnu Idol and really focus our devotion to real Muruga shrines which are available in many thousands.