The Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nagaraj on February 08, 2013, 03:20:21 PM

Title: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 08, 2013, 03:20:21 PM
Friends,

It just occurred to me to bring this topic in order to find out how many are already married and how many are unmarried and how many are thinking of remaining unmarried in-order to lead a spiritual life. May be, the above groups may be able to think and progress on the lines of the group they belong and discuss, maybe, on how to really go from here.

I know, we are all here and we do get some good satsang, but sometimes, it becomes a routine exercise as a part of our daily lives. its also perhaps we can say, an alarm for ourselves, are we really serious about our quest? and if so how to really proceed from where we are. i proposed to raise such topics from the results of this poll.

Your suggestions are welcome. Thank you. Expecting each one of you to exercise your vote.

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 08, 2013, 04:01:36 PM
Nagaraj,
I am married and have voted accordingly.I do not get the drift of what you have expressed.I request you to elaborate a little on this.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 08, 2013, 04:11:03 PM
Thanks Sri Ravi,

yes, my communication is not that good, i generally face this issues and end up having to explain in a better manner.

My objective is to basically bring a clear perspecitive, we all need to plan and address our problems for the betterment.

I have noticed generally, sometimes (not all times) that a married persons perspective some times does not match with a person who is unmarried yet. The spiritual requirement and nourishment of both are actually differing and the reality is truly we do not have direct access to a genuine Guru on hand. The point of view of an already married person in his experience may not match with the point of view of a person who perhaps is thinking seriously in maybe not to get married at all (such ones may have their reasons).

I am not sure if i have been clear enough but hope you have got atleast a jist of what i am trying to bring into light.

based on the results (maybe) depending on the interest of fellow-members, we can open a thread and bring about into light seriously who is truly eligible to remain unmarried if one is qualified so, what steps such a person has to take etc...

on the other hand, it is also noticed the point of view of an unmarried person does not really cater to the spiritual requirement of a married person.

And those who are undecided about their lives, and those who are planning to get married and what they should plan etc...

These are the general points that i wished to take this poll further to.

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 08, 2013, 04:45:45 PM
Nagaraj,
Thanks.Except for the outer lifestyle,there is no difference inwardly!
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 08, 2013, 04:57:58 PM
Except for the outer lifestyle,there is no difference inwardly!

Sri Ravi, true, ultimately, this is the final conclusion, but most often this discernment does not really help persons of all all stations in practical day to day affairs, unless one exercises pure will with a steadfast mind.

But, truly we cannot deny that the external lifestyles does have an impact inwardly, unless one is truly Ramana himself. There arises a perhaps requirement of discipline, which is most necessary.

For instance, we are generally over influenced with spiritual ideas and ignore the aspect of changing ones external lifestyle for the betterment believing that everything is internal, and this continues for years without proper progress or may be with just some good feelers in between.

For a serious pursuit of God, certain disciplines are truly necessary, and external modifications and disciplines may be only incidental for inner upliftment, but what i felt strongly is the real need for one to realise that yes, change is necessary, not everything is internal, external lifestyles discipline is essential.

We may be spending hours together in spiritual topics, reading, contemplating etc... but that may not really mean anything.

I truly felt, discipline is very essential. For all stations of life. What should be the discipline is the subject in question, for each station of life.

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 08, 2013, 05:06:27 PM
Nagaraj,
Yes,outer discipline is very much needed.What you say is quite in order.The Disciplines are also fundamentally the same based on Dispassion and Discrimination.It is as important for a Householder to master all passions as for a renunciant,if at all he is a earnest seeker.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 08, 2013, 05:16:04 PM
Sri Ravi,

yes, we have to strive to first be that 'earnest seeker' thank you. That is the aspiration, and we have to ask ourselves if we are honestly striving for it, mostly we will be far from it.

What i meant originally was only that yes, whether a householder or not, all have to master all passions.

What are the disciplines of a householder.
What are the disciples of a person who is yet to get married.
What are the disciples of a person who is choosing not to get married.
What are the points one has to consider if one is uncertain of his life.

Again going back,

We are only just looking back on Dharma of a Householder, brahmacharya. But it is important we get acquainted with this, at least i am very much interested.

Again, i feel we have to distinguish between 'Duty' and 'Dharma' We may fulfil our duty on dot for our ashrama but, what are we all have to achieve (master of all passions), and the means, i felt a need to look into it.

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 08, 2013, 05:30:07 PM
Nagaraj,
There can be guidelines only and one should not put oneself in a straitjacket.I warmly recommend the book 'spiritual Practice' by swami Ashokananda.He has covered these aspects in a wonderful way.You may download it here:
http://www.estudantedavedanta.net/spiritual%20practice.pdf (http://www.estudantedavedanta.net/spiritual%20practice.pdf)
The Basic instinct that has to be mastered is the Sex instinct;if this is mastered,all the rest are only offshoot of this.This is why Sri Ramakrishna emphasizes 'Kamini' and 'Kanchana'>this is a deep subject and one that every earnest seeker should be aware of,and learn to handle intelligently.This cannot be tackled through any formula ridden approach.The key to this is to live more and more from the core of our being.Yet to reach there also requires a certain mastery over passion.so,it is a tandem approach that one has to take.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 08, 2013, 05:43:10 PM
Sri Ravi,

Thanks so much, i just glanced thorough this book, truly this is the book i would very much like to read very carefully. I will try and get a book copy too, from Ramakrishna Math. Thank you so much. and yes, i see the importance of your observation, that one should not put oneself in a straitjacket that is the key!

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on February 08, 2013, 06:10:32 PM
So far in this forum, I have never found a discussion where marriage / bachelorship was a hurdle / needing a different path. So I dont understand the need behind this. I agree with Ravi Ji.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 08, 2013, 06:40:50 PM
Sanjaya/Friends,
our friend Nagaraj is a deep and earnest seeker.He brooks no compromises and wants to be sure that none is ever entertained.He is just wanting to make sure that one is absolutely serious about the sadhana.
In general,a vast majority of people have only a passing interest.Fewer still have a sustained interest in matters spiritual.Fewer than these are those who consider it important.Fewer than these are those who consider it as vital.Fewer than these are those who are passionate about it.Fewer than these are those who Live it.
Our friend Nagaraj wants to live it.For all the rest,depending on where they are,teachings of a compromised type are the only staple food!Sri Ramakrishna used to term this as 'Do this as well as that'!
Full marks to our friend here!This sort of a mettle is indeed needed.
Namaskar.

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Jewell on February 08, 2013, 06:44:33 PM
Dear Sri Nagaraj,

My opinion is the question of marriage is not question for reason at all. It is not something which can,or should be decided in some dry,reasonable,planing matter. Marriage is the matter of the heart,and heart only. And i believe thats why people dont succeed in marriage these days. They chose to be married from the wrong reasons. Marriage is not some buisniss contract,it is the thing which should come because of love. Then it is simple. If i love someone,and love him truly and deeply,then marriage can be good solution. Then no matter what problems we have,it wont matter,we will survive anything. In good and worse. Specialy because of children. For me,that holds enourmous responsability,and only childrem who come from love can be truly loved and healthy. Love is only reason for marriage. I dont think it should be decided otherwise.
I was strugling myself with that decision for long time,and finaly i have decided that only my heart will decide for such a thing. I can live in both way happily,it doasnt matter. That is my destiny. But that is fir me decision which cannot be handled rationaly. It not supose to be. Love is love. Love is complete trust. No matter what that brings. If it brings hell,then so be it. But i know why i decided that way,i would never look back. If someone chose to marry,it should be long term decision,for the rest of ones life. And if you end up in hell,it doasnt matter. You love,you can bare anything. Love is not expectation,love is total trust,sharing,giving.

And if i never feel love,then best way is to be alone. Marriage will then be a hypocricy. Why should i marry if i dont love. It is doomed already.
In either case,love is the key. And thats Gods decision,not mine.

So,in my case,there is no real decision on my part. It is the heart matter. Then what ever life brings,its good. It is His will only.

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Jewell on February 08, 2013, 07:22:58 PM
Sanjaya/Friends,
our friend Nagaraj is a deep and earnest seeker.He brooks no compromises and wants to be sure that none is ever entertained.He is just wanting to make sure that one is absolutely serious about the sadhana.
In general,a vast majority of people have only a passing interest.Fewer still have a sustained interest in matters spiritual.Fewer than these are those who consider it important.Fewer than these are those who consider it as vital.Fewer than these are those who are passionate about it.Fewer than these are those who Live it.
Our friend Nagaraj wants to live it.For all the rest,depending on where they are,teachings of a compromised type are the only staple food!Sri Ramakrishna used to term this as 'Do this as well as that'!
Full marks to our friend here!This sort of a mettle is indeed needed.
Namaskar.

Dear Sri Ravi,

Yes,i agree completely that we should be completely devoted to our quest. And if someone thinks he should chose solitary life for the sake of spirituality,than he should chose that. But,for me,if someone feels that way,he will decided it whitin a second. That same decision can be also simple running from something,and i think we should be honest to ourselvs,why are we deciding this,or that way.
Nothing should stand betwean us and this path,and we should never compromise it. But,many times it is not matter of compromise at all...

Also,i would like to add something,on Sri Nagaraj's sentence tha we dont have a living Guru. Althrough i understand what You wanted to convey,i wish to add something.
What is the Guru,doas He lives? What is this life,is it real?
We have a living Guru,dear Sri Nagaraj! We have a Bhagavan! More alive then any of us!!!

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Jewell on February 08, 2013, 08:00:55 PM
Dear Sri Tushnim,

How will someone live depend on that one himself,in any circoumstances one is,it doasnt matter. That is correct. And i truly believe that we all live and chose what we must. Our apparent chosing is nothing but illusion. So,everything is the way it must be.
But i am against arranged marriage. Maybe that dont change anything,arranged or not,all is the matter of luck and must. It can be good,it can be bad,no matter it is arranged or not. But i am against that very idea. It is somehow dry,ugly way. It makes marriage a contract,a thing if politics. And how can someone live someone,or raise familly if he doasnt know anything about himself first,or about life. Marriage should not be a matter of society convinience and rules. I would never accept that kind of marriage. No matter how we call it,marriage is betwean people who love eachother,even if they dont live together. That kind of love maybe never happen,maybe it is childish dream,but i will pursue it to the edge of doom. Only that can be callet marriage,all else are only contracts.
It puts almost all marriages to be for wrong reasons,but even this subject cannot be put in some finish matter. It all depend on individual case,all other circoumstances. Good or bad,in the end only God knows.
And,indeed,what ever we chose only marks our progress of spirituality,if we chose it for the right reasons,from the very heart.

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: ramana_maharshi on February 08, 2013, 08:02:11 PM
yes agreed with everyone's views.

Even i feel  for spiritual life  (minimum responsibilites) surely is a great aid for which obviously bachelor life has huge advantage.

Simple watch ramana maharshi's life ... he ran from his home and never married though he tried to console few people who want to copy/cat his life style.

But as udai garu said it only destiny ,prarabdha on which our paths are dependent.

Anyways in this i really love bhagavn's statement when someone asked that he wants to run away from his home..

bhagavan said : no dont do that
devotee: then why did u run away and not suggesting the same for others..
bhagavan: If that has been your prarabdha that question itself should not have raisen.

So its clear that only when one is totally convinced and has deep deep vairagya one takes that bold decision and never asks other person's opinions.

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 08, 2013, 08:09:19 PM
Udai,
I do not care for this sort of a revelling;It does not mean anything to me.I appreciate the Ranti deva type of revelling.True spirituality is not to impregnate oneself in some fortress and to pass through vicissitudes of life in an unassailable manner.It is to be connected to the whole of Life and this is the last word in spirituality.

This is what Sage Thayumanavar says so wonderfully:

தம்முயிர்போல் எவ்வுயிருந் தானென்று தண்ணருள்கூர்
செம்மையருக் கேவலென்று செய்வேன் பராபரமே!

When shall I do the biddings
Of the holy ones with compasssion filled,
Who hold all lives as their own?
Oh Para Param!

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on February 08, 2013, 08:15:36 PM
Friends,

It is not something to be gained by doing something in some way or the other. I may not communicate it correctly. But you can be sure, whenever you get a thought that "I have to do it this way to get that since I am in this situation" - it is the big bloated "I" ego using its so-called amazing tools of brain and mind  which is saying this.

Yes - we can always quote two different great jnanis who may have made statements which  to our little ego's evaluation "seemingly" will be for or against this idea. But no doubt - Only ego will make you "work" to get "there". So does it mean - it involves no effort. My take is - Just try that and you will know that takes the biggest effort - to not do anything ("inside" not "outside"). "Finding a path that suits a situation" is a nice gimmick of ego. Ego says - "OK, So you are in so and so situation? We will find a path for you in this situation". 

I think there may be at least some readers in this forum who visit and read very regularly for years, but do not make any posts - and I envy them - because it is an amazing death of ego to not to have a pressing desire to respond / react to ideas which dont suit one. There the attachment to a path also dies, all efforts die and then the Grace inside starts leading you, per my humble opinion. As long as you feel, you can do something and gain this or that, Arunachala will let you play :) with your toys.

Pranamams to Arunachala - The Supreme Truth,
Sanjay
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 08, 2013, 08:51:07 PM
Friends,
Uncertainty and ambiguity are the warp and woof of one's life on this earth.One does not even know what is driving one to wherever it does.One conveniently calls it Prarabdha and is satisfied that one has had a measure of what is happening!
Things being such,it is only earnestness that can provide a toe hold and one definitely needs to orient himself according to the best of Light available at his or her disposal.This will necessarily mean  due evaluation of all that one has experienced,all that others have experienced and the pros and cons of one approach over the other,etc.
To blame the poor 'ego' bloated or otherwise is just begging the question!We are the Ego and Ego alone.Let anyone dare say otherwise. :)
The 'Ego' is not a concept or an imaginary ghost to be exorcised;it is us and no degree of theory or abstraction or ratiocination is  going to eliminate it.Sadhana is for the ego and by the Ego only.All glory to the blessed ego. :)
As long as the Ego exists and cannot be denied or wished away,an appropriate path exists and it is only use of intelligence to determine the most appropriate means and methods  that is in order.One definitely needs to think over the momentous and irreversible decisions in life and cannot leave it to chance.
It is from this perspective that our friend Nagaraj's soul searching is quite appropriate and valid too.This sort of a decision has been taken by Swami Vivekananda ;he did deliberate between living a Royal Life viz a viz that of a Renunciant.It took some years for him to choose what ultimately he was destined to!So,I would say that our friend here is in good company.It is better to be deterministic than to be fatalistic and bank on prarabdha to carry one.What if prarabdha carries one to the wrong shore?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on February 08, 2013, 08:58:56 PM
Quote
It is better to be deterministic than to be fatalistic and bank on prarabdha to carry one.What if prarabdha carries one to the wrong shore?

What are you banking on Prarabdha to take you? Where to? What is right shore and what is wrong shore? How did you determine there are two shores - why not more? As long as, the concept of two shores exists and you wanting to go to the right shore - yes - let us put in the effort to reach there till we realize supreme surrender is the only way. No - you are wrong when you say it is surrendering to fate or prarbdha. Surrendering to fate or prarabdha - internally you will rot. You will know it, You will feel it. But in supreme surrender you only have joy - immense joy. No shores to go. No path to take. Just be... birth comes.. death comes... just be...

NO more comments from me on this topic - so as to avoid any unnecessary deviations. Let me allow my friend Nagaraj garu to use the thread for the purpose he created it.

Arunachala Siva
Sanjay
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 08, 2013, 09:20:20 PM
sanjaya,
I am unable to make out what you have posted.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: deepa on February 09, 2013, 12:43:31 AM

I went through these "supposed" frustrations caused in marriage. It seemed to me that my married life was coming in the way of spiritual progress. It seemed to cause agitations.

Swamiji said this perception is also only caused by ego. Ego aims for progress, gets frustrated with supposed "failures", gets elated with "supposed" progress, sets milestones. He said our situation in life, marriage, people around us, events are given only as a opportunity for us to find out the truth. Running away will not help us find the truth. (Nochurji also said similarly in Dakshinamurthy sthothram lecture)

For e.g., when we see a snake in the night, we can run away from it, but our fear will come again when we come near the path again. But if we go near the snake with a flashlight, first, we realize it is not a snake. Then, on further scrutiny, we realize that it is only a rope. Samsara (married life) is like that. You go near it/live it to understand first what is anatma, and then realize atma.

All the values mentioned in chapter 12 and chapter 13 can be practiced within grihastha life. (I was thinking of "asakthir anabhishvangah putra dhara grihadishu yesterday - how do you do your duty to family "asakthir" - without attachment and  "anabhishvangah" - with equipoise)

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on February 09, 2013, 05:47:29 AM
Very Well written, Deepa. You are blessed.

Sanjay
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on February 09, 2013, 05:52:33 AM
sanjaya,
I am unable to make out what you have posted.
Namaskar.

:) Vice versa. So best left there till Arunachala wills otherwise.

Sanjay
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 09, 2013, 07:06:35 AM
Sanjaya,
If we understand the 'context' of this thread,we will be in a position to understand each other better.
I have posted in this thread a few posts,and these are designed to address the particular needs of a seeker within this context.I have done this consciously.I am quite familiar with each and every inch of this 'context' and have been at this 'Crossroad' and fully understand the dilemma that an earnest seeker will face.This is why I have recommended the Book,spiritual Practice by Swami Ashokananda.
This 'Dilemma' cannot be sorted out by any degree of general advice-it has to be handled by the seeker alone.This is how Ralph Waldo Emerson puts it:
Quote
There is a time in every man's education when he arrives at the conviction that envy is ignorance; that imitation is suicide; that he must take himself for better, for worse, as his portion; that though the wide universe is full of good, no kernel of nourishing corn can come to him but through his toil bestowed on that plot of ground which is given to him to till. The power which resides in him is new in nature, and none but he knows what that is which he can do, nor does he know until he has tried
The Earnest seeker faces this sort of a 'Half conviction,Half dilemma'-He definitely needs to see that he lives upto the full potential with which he is not yet fully acquainted;he needs to take care that he does not squander it away by a reckless choice or by following a routine beaten track mechanically.At the same time,he also needs to be wary that he does not overestimate his capacity to walk the path of a celibate and later on find himself in a quandry.
We cannot be citing the likes of Sri Ramakrishna or Sri Bhagavan and say -If we were like them-we would not have raised this topic in the First place!This is something that goes without saying,but this sort of a view is too over simplified and does not address the needs of this thread.
To marry or not to marry -This is a Big decision that an earnest seeker has to carefully consider.This is not a trivial question at all.This choice cannot be left to chance.It cannot be left to providence.
The needs of the one who is at the 'crossroads' are very  different  than the one who has already taken the plunge.For the one who has taken the plunge and finds himself wherever,it is easy to reconcile with it in a spirit of 'surrender'?Does he have any other choice?No!
Not the same for the one who is young and is carefully considering the Best route to God.Those who can remain single by choice(and not by default!)for God are  Blessed.They are like 'unpecked fruits',as Sri Ramakrishna says.Again as he says 'They are like warriors in the open'.
They do not have to slave for the sake of kith and kin.They do not have to serve God and mammon.Certainly that sort of a 'Freedom' and 'Surrender' is of a very tall order and is worthy of our highest adoration.No householder can measure upto that.
I have kept in view some of these thoughts in my posts in this thread.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 09, 2013, 08:40:10 AM
Friends,
An excerpt from TGN's talk:
                                                    COMPULSION  FOR  MARRIAGE
There is an insect called mayfly which lives for less than 24 hours.  A mosquito has a life-span of two months and a rat runs about for two years.  These beings do all what a human does, expect going to school and college and earning a living.  They too hurry hither and thither for food, they too seek the company of the opposite sex and bring forth progeny like Xerox-copies !
Coming to think of it, two factors are overwhelmingly  present in the psyche of all living beings: (i) the instinct for survival even against odds; and (ii) the urge to ensure continuity of species.  It is for the first of these requirements that Nature has fitted out every being with sting or nails or teeth.  For fulfilment of the second need, certain hormones are generated at the appropriate age in the metabolic routine.  When there is hormonal imbalance of a particular order, a need would come to be felt for seeking the company of the other sex.  In beings on the lower scales of evolution up to animals, the urge abates once the hormonal balance is restored.Any surplus within the physical body is a burden that manifests as unrest; and the excretion of the surplus is experienced as pleasure by the mind although actually it is only relief.
The sixth sense is absent in lesser beings up to animals and they live by instinct.  The tiger, for instance ceases hunting for prey when its abdomen is filled for the day and it does not catch and store deer or sheep for the morrow and the days after.  So is their preoccupation with the opposite sex.
Man alone, of all living beings, has the sixth sense.  That is why the poet Alfred Lord Tennyson (1809-1892)- do even Professors of Literature remember him these days? – called man ‘the roof and crown of things’. The sixth sense is endowed to man by Nature so that he may embark on the inquiry to ascertain the purpose of life and devise ways and means to get that purpose fulfilled.  But, alas, the homo-sapien is putting the sixth sense to all uses except the primary purpose ! The thought of the transient pleasure of meeting the need to continue his own species is stored and remembered by the sixth sense which makes him hanker for it again and again even after the basic need is past.  This thought results in over-expending of the life-energy, which alone is any living being’s opening balance or Capital.  Don’t you hear a sad J. Krishnamurti warning you, ‘A life was given to you, the most precious thing possible.  And what have you done with it?  You have distorted it’.
The pressure for the perpetuation of the clan is the outcome of the soul’s imperative need to clear the imprints it has acquired through the generations.  Any object or article has an inherent quality.  For example, coolness is the inherent quality of the water.  When poured in a vessel and placed over fire, water acquires heat, which is not natural to it.  Effort is required to induce a quality into an object, which thereafter would be striving on its own to shed the addition.  Likewise the soul.  In the embodied condition, it projects as the mind, becomes cribbed  and cabined (as Shakespeare would put it), engenders the ego branching out as the ‘I’ and ‘Mine’ notions, develops likes and dislikes (ragam and dwesham), slips into the six temperamental moods ranging from kamam to matscharyam and draws on to itself countless stigmas in the form of imprints.
In its sustained endeavour to restore itself to its native state of  pristine purity, when the soul realizes that the job of clearance cannot be completed in the course of the physical body’s life-time, it has perforce to rope in some working partners in the shape of spouse and sons and daughters.  When this work-force too is in the same state of intoxication with worldly objects; the family-line has to necessarily continue from generation to ignorant generation.  History repeats itself in a most ignoble and inglorious manner. What shame, this !
I have explained to you the science behind marriage.  The institution of marriage has to be harnessed to what the Totality of Nature intended it to be.  In case some of you, boys and girls, would prefer to remain single for life, it is possible for you to do so, as long as you evolve a scheme of living, which would aid the clearing of imprints.  I shall share more information with you, depending on the earnestness you display during the question-time for which we could perhaps allot an hour even

Excerpt from a talk by Sage TGN to college-students
 
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 09, 2013, 10:20:28 AM
Sri Ravi,

Thanks for the wonderful posts, they are most beneficial, and are to be read again and again, it is commonly applicable to everybody, no matter which station one is. This reminded me the teachings of Yama in Katha Upanishad. Yama begins his teaching by distinguishing between preyas, "what is pleasant", and shreyas, "what is beneficial."

(A similar distinction between the pleasant and the beneficial was made in ancient Greek philosophy by Plato.)

Yama's teaching also notably includes the Ratha Kalpana (parable of the chariot, Verses 1.3.3–4), Yama's parable consists of the following equations:




atman, the "Self" is the chariot's passenger
the body is the chariot itself
consciousness (buddhi) is the chariot driver
the mind (manas) is the reins
the five senses (indriya) are the chariot horses
the objects perceived by the senses are the chariot's path


  (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_EVFeFJfPBBw/TNTiOafM52I/AAAAAAAAAWU/n1il3JS1-Cc/s1600/krishnayoga.jpg)

I see the dangers of casual approach to life and stations of life after having had small glimpses or tastes of deep spirituality. I beg forgiveness, but in general i have noticed here and elsewhere, a sense of debunking of traditional spiritual practices and disciplines among many Ramana followers if not all.

Many have taken to the famous jargon "Summa Iru" or "Just Be" as the father of all and the only teaching and thereby debunking all the other disciplines necessary. I realised over introspection, (Can't talk for others) but i am truly far from just being, i am not engaging all of my waking times in communion. All who say, "Just Be" they may introspect within themselves, if they are Just Being at this very moment, or are we truly engaging in Self Enquiry in all our waking hours? I am sure not! Sometimes it appears to me 'Just Being' has taken the place of even Self Enquiry, where sadhakas feel, Enquiry is no more required and they are practicing 'Just Being' Teaching of Bhagavan have been distorted, i felt, from my perspective.

I truly felt this is a wake up call. We all should first know where we truly stand in the scheme of things, leaving aside Bhagavan Ramana or Sri Ramakrishna, They are the Supreme Self, Are we even closer to either devotees such as Muruganar or Master Mahashay? We are not, at least I am not.

The body needs to be governed and disciplined, it does not get disciplined simply saying "Just Being" and being far from it in reality. We need to assess ourselves truly by being an honest witness of ourselves and take necessary steps and take ownership of our lives and govern ourselves for the better.

Sri Jewel, yes, as you have said, Self is the Guru, Krishna says in Gita -

उद्धरेदात्मनात्मानं नात्मानमवसादयेत् ।
आत्मैव ह्यात्मनो बन्धुरात्मैव रिपुरात्मनः ॥

uddharedātmanātmānaṁ nātmānamavasādayet,
ātmaiva hyātmano bandhurātmaiva ripurātmanaḥ.

By the self thou shouldst deliver the self, thou shouldst not depress and cast down the self (whether by self-indulgence or suppression); for the self is the friend of the self and the self is the enemy.

and he also says -

तद्विद्धि प्रणिपातेन परिप्रश्नेन सेवया ।
उपदेक्ष्यन्ति ते ज्ञानं ज्ञानिनस्तत्त्वदर्शिनः ॥

tadviddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā,
upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninastattvadarśinaḥ.

Learn that by worshipping the feet of the teacher, by questioning and by service; the men of knowledge who have seen (not those who know merely by the intellect) the true principles of things, will instruct thee in knowledge.

So, what is wise as i see, is yes, one had we must be aware and harness ourselves with the words of Sages that Self is God, Guru is truly within and go on with our lives but at the same time, we should be wise enough to not get stuck with just this ideal alone and stop our efforts and desire to truly meet a real Guru. Both go hand in hand. Truly wisdom calls from within to not rationalise as just this or just that what we say generally is that we need to be open minded.

Thanks all for your comments. The conviction in my quest has only increased now, over various opinions and questions posted in this post.

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 09, 2013, 10:42:27 AM
I just wanted to add an extention to the example of Yama as given in the previous post.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_EVFeFJfPBBw/TNTiOafM52I/AAAAAAAAAWU/n1il3JS1-Cc/s1600/krishnayoga.jpg)

When we say 'Just be' It is like this,

The intellect is says Just be, do not react, just keep quiet, while the horses are dancing in field of activity, and what we do is attribute the field of activity to the hands of prarabdha karma and keep quiet doing nothing, neither the horses are tamed neither the intellect is harnessed and is shown its faulty advise, one gets stagnated over this going no where.

Those who say, body is not Self, and one has to keep quiet also are not correct, its like saying, let the intellect say, do somethings, you keep quiet, let the horses say and go hither tither you just be. This is not spirituality, this is not what "Just Be" is.

To be master of the entire thing is the aspiration, the horse should stop upon your command, the intellect should act upon your command, the reigns should only move when you command the intellect, and horses move only upon the command of the intellect commanded by you.

there are a lot of things, we just cover them all up by just saying and practicing "Just Being" blindly. Without the mastery of Body, nothing will last. Thank you. Carrying on with Self Enquiry without keeping the chariot in check also is futile. One has to govern oneself overall.

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 09, 2013, 03:35:10 PM
Nagaraj/Friends,

Quote
To be master of the entire thing is the aspiration

This is what our Lady AnDAL refers to in this verse from Tiruppavai:

தூமணி மாடத்து சுற்றும் விளக்கெரியத்
தூபம் கமழத்
துயிலணைமேல் கண் வளரும்
மாமான் மகளே மணிக் கதவம் தாழ் திறவாய்
மாமீர் அவளை எழுப்பீரோ! உன் மகள் தான்
ஊமையோ அன்றி செவிடோ அனந்தலோ
ஏமப் பெருந் துயில் மந்திரப் பட்டாளோ!
மாமாயன் மாதவன் வைகுந்தன் என்றென்று
நாமம்  பலவும் நவின்றேலோர் என்பாவாய்

O Daughter of our uncle who is asleep on the soft couch placed in the immaculate and well-appointed chamber on the High,where lamps are burning all around and the air is laden with the aroma of incense!O do open the latch of the ornate door.Oh Aunt,would you not waken the girl?Pray tell us whether your daughter is dumb or deaf or simply sunk in stupor or confined to deep sleep through some incantation!Otherwise how could she be unresponsive to the several names we chant such as "the lord of mightily wondrous deeds","the repository of the fruits of penance"and "the deity of Vaikunta"?

In this wonderful verse AnDAL is referring to the adept who is in Nirvikalpa samadhi and yet the 'Lamps are burning all around and the air is laden with the aroma of incense'-TGN refers this as all round illumination,where the wisdom informs every quarters and manifests in thought,word and deed-and permeates all the senses;No quarter for any darkness!

I will be covering it in my tiruppavai thread hopefully.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 09, 2013, 08:20:18 PM
Nagaraj/Friends,
What is meant by  'summa iru' ? An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Those whose spiritual consciousness has been awakened never make a false step. They do not have to reason in order to shun evil. They are so full of love of God that whatever action they undertake is a good action. They are fully conscious that they are not the doers of their actions, but mere servants of God. They always feel: 'I am the machine and He is the Operator. I do as He does through me. I speak as He speaks through me. I move as He moves me.'
"Fully awakened souls are beyond virtue and vice. They realize that it is God who does everything".

This is a clear measure to examine the 'summa Iru' that one may imagine oneself to be in.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Jewell on February 09, 2013, 09:57:32 PM
Dear Sri Nagaraj,

For me Be Still mean Abide in the Self,and Self enquiry is just that. The one Who is "debunking" traditional practices is Bhagavan Himself. For the simple reason,we dont need it,if we are trully devoted to Him. He gave us metod,which is something like shorcut through danse forest. Chosing other spiritual practices over it,is like having short way map wr chose to go around,not only this forest,but few more. I dont see the need for that,exept it is some sort of,i must say,attachment towards it,or that very idea how that way should look like. For me,the only means for progress is patience,steadiness and above all,faithfullness to ones Guru. If we chose self enquiry that should mean we took Bhagavan to be our Guru,then all other search for other Guru is unnecessary. If we dont have faith in the teaching,how we ecspect to progress.At least,thats my seeing of it. With what kind of things and difficoulties someone have encounters,only each one of us know for himself. Inner life of anyone is very complex and unique,so what ever i say can be very false. But in one thing i am sure. Faith and steadiness are very important. And absolute madness after it,which means sincere wish. With it,no amount of self enquiry can be hard. I never doubded You have it. Maybe You are more close then You think. We cannot messure progress in our ways. It depends on what we expect.True,this path is very hard and difficult,and life appart from that. But i always remember Graham post in this very forum,when He encountered difficulties and loss of faith. He said to Bhagavan something like:"What kind of Guru are You,leaving Your ernest devotees. " In the same moment voice shouted loudly:"You believe illusion to be real." That experience changed all outlook of Sir Graham. I would never forget that post. I just wanted to share it.
And in my case,and i believe in general too,self inquiry is the tool for quieting the mind and senses.

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 09, 2013, 10:39:36 PM
Dear Sri Jewel and friends,

Firstly i want to clarify this topic is really not about 'path' or change og paths oreven about marriage or bachelorhood being hindrance. I humbly request members to lindly read with a little more attention before conveying your views then it will be a fine discussion that truly benefits everybody. The topic is really carried out of its true purpose now, really.

Debunking other spiritual practices, did ramana say so? Why do we differentiate any spiritial discipline at all? 

patience is all yes, but in the pretext of patience is the key are each onr of us really striving with madness as uou havr observed? Am afraid not. Are we truly practicing self enquiry constantly? Am afraid not. Being still, to me is    bi-product of our sadhana, and not something that is practiced.

How much have we all reslly mastered our stomach, the cravings for food and taste, are we masters of our stomach? Are we masters of our mind? Do we not watch television, are we not instigated by mere arguements even here or whrn we see newspapers and television? Have we mastered them. Have we mastered the dependence on money people telationships love and others? Where do we stand we need to be fair. Have we genuienly taken steps to transcend these defaults in us? Have we all mastered our bodies, and sensual cravings? Dont we want to enjoy an occassional movie, fun  etc

I do not see we are truly performing self enquiry as the only sadhana, if bhagawan meant self enquiry alone is enough it should unsaid be understood that one is already very close renunciate meaning one has truly givrn himself in working out ones external hsbits. How much dependent are we on money, promotoons and job?

We need to reassess truly well of ourselves. Other spiritual diaciplines include monitoring these aspects, and they are not counter to self enquiry.

We have to face it, we need to.afopt certain changes.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 09, 2013, 10:42:21 PM
Posted from mobile, spelling, language excuse pls
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Jewell on February 09, 2013, 11:06:49 PM
Dear Sri Nagaraj,

I truly dont know about others and it is not my concern. All i am saying,is comming from my experience only. I can live without fun,without television,movies,etc. I dont care about money or about sensual plesures. I only cannot live without love. But that was all happening becouse of self enquiry. With time,with constant trying to Abide in the Self,that Abindance must increace.
But,i love life,and if tomorow i have idea to have fun,i will have fun. Why not? Do i need to beat myself to death for the sake of spirituality?! I cant live without fun,and in the same time i am torturing myself because i dont want to want it. How sick is that! What am i,sadist! I dont want to led go this person,but i want Immortality with it. How ambitious! If i cant leave my passions,then i cant. Period. He whi gave me will need to bear me just like this. Coz i am what i am. He made me luke this.
And even that is nonsence. There is no me. Only that we need to drop. With it all else goes. Drop or not,it is like it is. All this is just ego playing,nothing more.
Everything is anyway in His hands. If i need to play,then i will play.  Nothing other is not left. It is the dream anyway.
And i dont mean,let become clowns and going crazy,but to do what ever is felt it need to be done.

I dont know if You understood,i hope You did.

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 09, 2013, 11:20:39 PM
Nagaraj/Jewell/Friends,
Who is Guru?Guru is not an 'individual' .Guru ,God, Self are synonymous.I wish to share this wonderful excerpt from 'The Human Gospel of Sri Ramana maharshi' by V Ganesan.Ganesan,as we know is the Grandson of Chinna Swami,and has had the benefit of growing up in Bhagavan's presence.
Here is the Excerpt:
"In 1960, I moved to Ramanashram. I worked diligently at Ashram duties but I was not completely happy. I couldn‘t put my finger on what was missing, and how I could be more fulfilled. Though I received a lot of well-meaning advice from peers at the Ashram, I was simply not fulfilled. My Teacher, T. K. Sundaresa Iyer then said to me, ―If you are not satisfied with our advice, then you should go and get it from an acknowledged jnani.‖ He then directed me to Papa Ramdas of Kanghangad in Kerala, who in turn sent me to his spiritual heir, a saint called Krishna Bai or Maatha ji.
I asked her, ―How should I serve my Master? What is my practice?‖ She replied, ―Old devotees of Bhagavan have already left the Ashram. Go bring them back, attend to them, and serve them until their last day. This is your service, your life. It is your Seva.‖ I was taken aback. I had closely studied Eastern and Western philosophy. Nowhere had I heard of serving the guru‘s devotees as a form of practice. She added, ―Another important hurdle is that since you are related to Ramana Maharshi, everybody will tell you and treat you like you are already liberated. They will tell you that according to the Hindu scriptures, a realized Master‘s relatives are already realized beings. Seven generations preceding and the subsequent seven generations are supposedly free of karma. Be here now. It is a golden chain into the non-existent past. It is a lie. You must earn your bread—your spiritual bread. God is absolutely impartial. You are to practice Ramana Maharshi‘s teachings, so pursue Self-Enquiry for your Self.‖
Overwhelmed by the magnitude of the task before me, I shed tears, ―Mother, I am leaving, and you will be far away!‖ ―I am going to guide you,‖ she reassured me. ―You are six hundred miles away from me! How are you going to guide me?‖ I looked at her questioningly. She replied, ―Don‘t worry about that. I will be guiding you every moment.‖ (Sure enough, I can palpably feel her guidance even now.)

continued....
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 09, 2013, 11:22:39 PM
Nagaraj/Jewell/Friends,

Who is a Guru ....continued....

Here are a few interesting and instructive observations.
1.T K Sundaresa Iyer is a direct disciple and devotee of Sri Bhagavan and had grown up in Bhagavan's presence as a Boy.(At The Feet of Bhagavan will clearly bring out the Depth of his devotion and intimacy and knowledge of Sri Bhagavan's teachings).What did he tell Ganesan?Did he ask him to stick to Bhagavan as Guru?NO!
Instead he advised him:"then you should go and get it from an acknowledged jnani" and sent him to papa Ramdas who in turn directs him to his disciple Mataji Krishnabai!
2.How many links here? Four links in the chain -Sri Bhagavan-TKS-Papa Ramdas-Mataji Krishnabai!Yet Guru is one Only!
The Key thing is that when a Disciple is not in a position to establish a connection  with the inner Guru or God or Self,He definitely needs the guidance of a Living Guru-Living Guru means 'outer Guru' .We cannot get sentimental and feel scandalized and say -'Well,Bhagavan is there as a Living guru.Why look for another Guru'-We also need to understand who this 'Bhagavan' is.
If Bhagavan is the Self,certainly the 'Living Guru'(the outer one with a different Name and Form)is also the Self.With this 'outer Guru' ,we can express our difficulty and get it sorted out.This is certainly a wise thing to do and one need not feel that one has 'Switched' guru.
3.This is why Sri Ramakrishna Makes it clear over and over again:
"Satchidananda alone is the Guru. If a man in the form of a guru awakens spiritual consciousness in you, then know for certain that it is God the Absolute who has assumed that human form for your sake".
4.Did not Ganesan acknowledge the guidance from Mataji Krishnabai?He does in a most grateful manner.In fact there is more to the story than what is posted here.Ganesan was at the 'crossroad' and was contemplating a life of celibacy.His brothers had got married.He was totally unsure about what the future and whether he could continue in his path of celibacy and dedicate himself fully to spiritual Living.Mataji gave him the assurance that he will live the life of a celibate and blessed him with a prophecy-'The Moment that he completes his service to the devotees of Bhagavan(He played a big role in taking care of them until their mahasamadhi which he handled deftly by having their bodies interned in the ashram compound),you will be free from the Responsibilities of running the ashramam'.This is exactly how it turned out to be.After the mahasamadhi of Ramasami pillai,Ganesan handed over charge to his brother and left the ashramam.He now lives in his home near Yama lingam,in Tiruvannamalai.
There is thus a Big difference between what we practice from the Books and what direct guidance from a 'Living Guru' can accomplish,so to say.All the same,one need not feel diffident on this score;if there is earnestness and Faith,patience and Steadiness as jewell has beautifully put it-one may draw upon Grace to lift oneself into its fold.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Jewell on February 09, 2013, 11:36:55 PM
Dear Sri Nagaraj,

Just to add,all what i have said is something i am telling to myself. That is my thoughys based on all my pondering. It reveals my adressing to myself. I realised that my very search is based on selfishness only. Why i want Immortality? Because i want lasting happiness and pleasures. Would i wont it,if i didnt realised they are trancient,and not permanent. No. Why should i. Sure,it is ment to happen,for the simple reason this individual is nonexistent,and whole life and death illusion only. So,search is bound to happen one day. The Perfect Reality is shrinking on one not existent entity,sure it is ment to be brocken.
But,my own reasons are ego reasons only. I realised i never wanted extinction,but eternal life,a happy one. There lies paradox. I want all that,but i know i need to be without desires and wantings,and then i am strugling with it. The one who is himself desire wants to be desireless,wants to be perfect. Can it? Or it just need to see his nonexistence.

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Jewell on February 09, 2013, 11:56:23 PM
Dear Sri Ravi,

All what i have said have ameaning only in context of what is said,in all. You certainly right about Guru,but like i said,my point is all what i wrote in general. Looking only fragment of it loses the meaning i wanted to convey. And it is subtle. Anyway,it is beautiful post You have posted.
Also,i didnt mention marriage or celibacy anywhere,it is the question of intimacy,and very private one,and for me,not truly important for the spirituality in general. I dont think we can chose anything against Gods wish. It is against very nature of Maya and God. All chose what they want and must.

What i wrote is adressing Sri Nagaraj's previous post.

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 12:31:20 AM
Nagaraj/Jewell/Friends,
Bhagavan's life itself is a Great teaching;if we examine how he lived his life in the ashramam,we will see that all the best of traditional wisdom is upheld.I have to differ with our friend Jewell here-Bhagavan clearly upheld all the Best in Traditional wisdom-Right till today,there is Veda parayana ,there is a GO-shala in the ashramam,there is a Meru Chakra installed and empowered by Bhagavan in Matru bhuteswara temple,there is Traditional puja performed to Ramaneswara Mahalingam as well as Matrubhuteswara,there is poor feeding.
There is no other way it can be.Sri Bhagavan never advocated self-enquiry as an 'exclusive Practice';he did admit all other practices like puja, Japa,Dhyana-and gave them their due place depending on the predeliction and need of seekers.He did translate Major works of Adi Sankara like vivekachudamani and atma Bodha.
It is indeed true that he gave self-enquiry as a direct path;yet it can in no way be said that he debunked the Traditional approach or its values.His appalam song clearly brings out his upholding all the elements and prerequisites for sadhana.
In fact,the fundamentals of sense-restraint,Disciplined and balanced living are something that just cannot be de-emphasized and debunked.Whosoever does it cannot be Guru,however intelligent he or she be.It is indeed unfortunate that a lot of neo advaitic nonsense is finding favour -and the worst thing is the belittling of this wonderful Life and Living as a 'Dream' as 'unreal' etc  and yet having a soft corner for all creature comforts and luxuries!This sort of pseudo spirituality is truly a danger as it totally runs counter to the affirmation of the Life in spirit.
Life has to be lived in right earnest and the Vedic wisdom always have upheld living a full 100 years in the plenitude of wisdom and Love.
I fully concur with our friend nagaraj here that more care and attention needs to be paid to the fundamentals of spiritual living;this just cannot be ignored or avoided.
Namaskar.
 
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 12:39:25 AM
Jewell,
I have posted on the 'Guru' on a as is where is basis.I have not 'responded or reacted' to what you have posted.I had thought of posting this earlier in the day but got hold of the material only now.It has nothing at all to do with what you have posted now.
My previous post where I have commented on the Traditional approach viz a viz Bhagavan's self enquiry is the one I have posted in response to your post.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Jewell on February 10, 2013, 12:48:21 AM
Dear Sri Ravi,

Why Bhagavan held traditional practices is very questionable. Many do that because is simple smart thing to do. It brings more people,they more easily have trust in such a Guru,and people simple get whst they want and need. Belief that something will helo is essential. It doasnt have anything with the Truth. I am not against traditional approach. That is not the meaning of my post.
And about discipline and restraint i dont want to talk. I will talk about it with the one who lives that kind of life. Only with that kind of man. Who is himself capable to stand behind that with His own exsample. If someone can show me such a man,and not to be a sage,or a lifeless stone,i will listen very cafefully. Sur,they are some exceptions.
Anyway,that wasnt also a point! So i will leave this disscution here!

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 01:04:06 AM
Jewell,
I have posted in an impersonal way and purely in objective fashion.It is not meant to disrespect your view point or you as a person.You may choose to ignore it if it does not please you.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 01:54:46 AM
Jewell/Friends,
Quote
I realised i never wanted extinction,but eternal life,a happy one. There lies paradox. I want all that,but i know i need to be without desires and wantings,and then i am strugling with it. The one who is himself desire wants to be desireless,wants to be perfect. Can it? Or it just need to see his nonexistence.

Yes,this is the paradox.How to reconcile Freedom with Discipline?This is an interesting topic.
Logically,if there is no 'I',then all associated problems ,paradoxes cease!Is advaitic solution then the only definitive one?Does it mean that the other schools of Visishtadvaitic or Dvaitic systems are intrinsically flawed ?Then how come the Great ones who championed them could have said what they did?Were they mistaken?Did they mislead their followers?To me,the answer is an emphatic NO!This may not be an appropriate thread for this discussion,but nevertheless the interesting thing is that in all the three schools or Philosophical systems,the Fundamentals of spiritual Living are the same!We may examine it in the Rough Note book thread,if we are interested.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 08:11:28 AM
udai,
It is upto you to evaluate where you are,who and what you are.This is all that I can say.Anything subjective is suspect;more when the subjective element is thrown outwardly for display.

I would like you to examine your statement:
Quote
Ofcourse both the people have to have maturity ... otherwise a buddha may love angulimala , but angulimala still tries only to hit

What happened to Angulimal?Love is a wonderful thing and not just angulimal,but even a Ravana will respond to it.This is what connecting with the whole of Life means.
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"Some friends said to Ravana: You have been assuming different forms for Sita . Why don't
you go to her in the form of Rama?' Ravana replied: 'When I contemplate Rama, even the
position of Brahma appears insignificant to me, not to speak of the company of another
man's wife! How could I take the form of Rama for such a purpose?'

If we are in Rama,even Ravana will respond.

Let me put it the other way.To find out where we are,just get a feedback from one's wife and children or other kith and kin.What do they have to say?This should tell the actual story.Ofcourse,I do not mean that they will be in a position to divine the state of your mind;yet definitely they will be in a position to state whether your understanding of them  is adequate or not.This 'Harmony' is a clear sign of your progress.This is the one and only objective Yardstick.All other things are dabbling in Mysticism only.Nothing more.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 08:24:10 AM
Friends,
In a lighter vein:
A Man was going around claiming to his friends,'I know the Chief Minister'.
One acquaintance asked;'We would like to know whether the Chief Minister knows you' :)

Namaskar
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 08:32:00 AM
Friends,
This is what Sage Tiruvalluvar says:

ஈதல் இசைபட வாழ்தல் அதுவல்லது
ஊதியம் இல்லை உயிர்க்கு

Giving(of oneself)and living in Harmony;Other than this
There is no nourishment for the soul.

Namaskar
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 08:34:29 AM
Udai,
Please take your time to deliberate on what is posted.We are not interested in 'Thoughts' but actual living.You may deliberate and then do as you please.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 08:49:02 AM
udai,
Again more thoughts of 'Bondage' and 'Freedom'.Right now,Do you think 'I am Free'?Free from What?Who is Free?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 09:33:56 AM
udai,
You just keep harping on this theme of Bondage and Freedom.The Freedom that is related to Bondage is no freedom at all.
To be afraid of so called Bondage and inventing a 'Mental schema' for freedom from it,is to be caught up and stagnate in it;It is just another form of mind culture only;this does have an utility.I am not denying this.Yet it is more an imitation than the Real thing.
This is all there to it.The 'acid Test' is like the feedback,which no one needs to shy away from,just because it may induce in one a sense of Bondage'!
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"It is a joy to merge the mind in the Indivisible Brahman through contemplation. And it is
also a joy to keep the mind on the Lila, the Relative, without dissolving it in the Absolute.
"A mere jnani is a monotonous person. He always analyses, saying: 'It is not this, not this.
The world is like a dream.' But I have 'raised both my hands'. Therefore I accept
everything
.
Parable of the weaver woman
"Listen to a story. Once a woman went to see her weaver friend. The weaver, who had been
spinning different kinds of silk thread, was very happy to see her friend and said to her:
'Friend, I can't tell you how happy I am to see you. Let me get you some refreshments.' She
left the room. The woman looked at the threads of different colours and was tempted. She
hid a bundle of thread under one arm. The weaver returned presently with the refreshments
and began to feed her guest with great enthusiasm. But, looking at the thread, she realized
that her friend had taken a bundle. Hitting upon a plan to get it back, she said: 'Friend, it is
so long since I have seen you. This is a day of great joy for me. I feel very much like asking
you to dance with me.' The friend said, 'Sister, I am feeling very happy too.' So the two
friends began to dance together. When the weaver saw that her friend danced without
raising her hands, she said: 'Friend, let us dance with both hands raised. This is a day of
great joy.' But the guest pressed one arm to her side and danced raising only the other. The
weaver said: 'How is this, friend? Why should you dance with only one hand raised? Dance
with me raising both hands. Look at me. See how I dance with both hands raised.' But the
guest still pressed one arm to her side. She danced with the other hand raised and said with
a smile, 'This is all I know of dancing.
' "

I generally offer these excerpts on a as is where is Basis and leave it to the reader to take what he finds in it.I will make a departure here,to put it in the proper context.
The 'Raising of one Hand' is the mind's claim for freedom from Bondage.yet,it is bondage of a kind only,whether one would like to accept or not.
'Both The Hands Raised' is the clear State of Freedom,a Freedom that is absolute ,when one stays connected with the whole of Life.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 10, 2013, 09:35:32 AM
Dear Sri Udai,

I really do not have that much interest in substantiating elaborately, the subtle flaw in your approach. I am very well aware of what you have been conveying for quite some time now. The reason is because, I am more interested in my own self. I am definitely here only for a selfish reason of helping myself out. However I would like to express a couple of thoughts. The Self is ever untouched, the Self in Duryodhana too was untouched just as in Yudhishtira, Arjuna and Krishna, Ravana and Rama as well, but we only worship Sri Krishna and Sri Rama. You need to ponder a little bit more on this.

I am Self, it is unsaid, I am truly untouched by anything that happens before me, or what i also do, I am going to the extent of saying, i am confident enough to say, I can kill somebody and remain untouched and go to jail and get a third degree treatment and still remain untouched. But I do not want a jnana like this. The Jnana that i desire is one like Lord Rama, who is hailed as Maryada Purushottam, as Lord Krishna and not something lesser than that.

The Senses may go to thousands of places, yet I am still untouched by that, the intellect may reason a thousands of things, yet I, as the  Self, am untouched and absolutely peaceful. But still, i do not want to ignore this Temple that is this body, the horses, the senses.

You have been only giving importance to the Kshetrajna and no importance to Kshetram, you have consistently been differentiating with the two and see no need for the Kshetram to merge with the Khsetrajna as one.

Your approach seem to to suggest that there is no need to unite the entire chariot as given in the example of Yama to Nachiketa.

Unfortunately, your idea of freedom, according to my limited understanding, does not really meet the Freedom as understood from the words of Sages and scriptures.

If you are Free, why are you striving to explain to Freedom that you are already free? To whom are you conversing with? Who is in bondage? and who is Free? What are you doing? these are some questions you may need to inquire.

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 09:55:03 AM
udai,
Forget Ramana.He will understand What sri Ramakrishna has said.Have you understood it?This is upto you,whether you wish to be caught up in sastra Jnana or whether you wish to pursue Sadhana.I have no need or wish  to prove you Right or Wrong.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 10:04:38 AM
udai,
Forget the 'Monotonous aspect.We will come to it later.Just focus on the parable and my footnote.Let us discuss that.Then we will see what the 'Monotone' signify.Sri Ramakrishna explains it clearly.It has to do with the subject of Harmony that I have already mentioned.We will see it later.
Did you get what the 'Single hand raised' and 'Both the Hands raised' signify?
Namaskar
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 10:14:19 AM
udai,
The two hands raised does not mean 'Bhakti and 'Jnana'.As,I have said,it signifies going beyond Bondage and Freedom.Such a one is a true jivanmukta and he is,so to say,connected with the whole of Life.He perceives Brahman everywhere,from ant to Brahma.
Please go through my footnote on the parable.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 10:47:57 AM
Udai,
Thanks very much for going into this.Just how do we read this parable based on what actually is said therein-This is indeed wonderful.

It starts with Rejection and ends in unconditional acceptance.
The Mind feels the Bondage to the Objects and desires freedom from this Bondage-This is what the 'world', that it sees and experiences through the senses, means to it.It does this by Rejection in its effort to be free from it.However much it may keep rejecting,it still remains connected to what it 'Rejects';true it experiences a Degree of Freedom from whatever it has rejected.This is 'One Hand Raised' and with the other hand it is still subtly holding onto what it wants to be free from!The Master explains this by something Hidden under the other arm tucked in!
The Mind that is trying to free itself cannot free itself from itself.This is something that no jnani has explained the 'mechanics' of it.They all refer to it as an act of Grace only.Anyway,let us not discuss this for now.
What the Master says is that 'Both his hands are free' -meaning that he has gone beyond this battle of Freedom and Bondage.
The Lila does not mean Bhakti-The Lila signifies the Full perception of world as Brahman.What is discarded as 'Illusion' is to see the world as world.
We will see how the Master says elsewhere:
Paths of negation and affirmation
MASTER: "Let me tell you the truth. He [meaning Dr. Sarkar] is now following the path of
negation. Therefore he discriminates, following the process of 'Neti, neti', and reasons in
this way: God is not the living beings; He is not the universe; He is outside the creation.
But later he will follow the path of affirmation and accept everything as the manifestation
of God.
"By taking off, one by one, the sheaths of a banana tree, one obtains the pith. The sheaths
are one thing, and the pith is another. The sheaths are not the pith, and the pith is not the
sheaths. But in the end one realizes that the pith cannot exist apart from the sheaths, and the
sheaths cannot exist apart from the pith; they are part and parcel of one and the same
banana tree. Likewise, it is God who has become the twenty-four cosmic principles; it is He
who has become man.

Namaskar
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on February 10, 2013, 10:58:02 AM
BTW, a humourous observation on Nagaraj garu's original poll results  - Married people top the chart. Looks like marriage has some special ingredient to turn people towards the path of Truth :). It seems to be the one unfailing sadhana which works :) - marriage .

Sanjay
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 11:08:24 AM
sanajaya,
 :)
It may also mean that married people spend more time just 'Logged in',thanks to the spouses!Whether this is sadhana or otherwise is another matter!
Reminded of the lady Proposing to G. Bernard Shaw  :)
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 06:59:44 PM
udai,
You may consider what has been stated or go along your way.You keep saying 'Nothing troubles me'-For me this is only a 'Subjective' -As I have already said that it does not mean much.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 10, 2013, 07:09:18 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Different groups of devotees
M: "Sir, what is the meaning of the realization of God? What do you mean by God-vision?
How does one attain it?"
MASTER: "According to the Vaishnavas the aspirants and the seers of God may be divided
into different groups. These are the pravartaka, the sadhaka, the siddha, and the siddha of
the siddha. He who has just set foot on the path may be called a pravartaka. He may be
called a sadhaka who has for some time been practising spiritual disciplines, such as
worship, japa, meditation, and the chanting of God's name and glories. He may be called a
siddha who has known from his inner experience that God exists. An analogy is given in
the Vedanta to explain this. The master of the house is asleep in a dark room. Someone is
groping in the darkness to find him. He touches the couch and says, 'No, it is not he.' He
touches the window and says, 'No, it is not he.' He touches the door and says, 'No, it is not
he.' This is known in the Vedanta as the process of 'Neti, neti', 'Not this, not this'. At last his
hand touches the master's body and he exclaims, 'Here he is!' In other words, he is now
conscious of the 'existence' of the master. He has found him, but he doesn't yet know him
intimately
.
"There is another type, known as the siddha of the siddha, the 'supremely perfect'. It is quite
a different thing when one talks to the master intimately, when one knows God very
intimately through love and devotion. A siddha has undoubtedly attained God, but the
'supremely perfect' has known God very intimately.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Vinod on February 11, 2013, 02:06:21 AM
Friends,

It just occurred to me to bring this topic in order to find out how many are already married and how many are unmarried and how many are thinking of remaining unmarried in-order to lead a spiritual life. May be, the above groups may be able to think and progress on the lines of the group they belong and discuss, maybe, on how to really go from here.

I know, we are all here and we do get some good satsang, but sometimes, it becomes a routine exercise as a part of our daily lives. its also perhaps we can say, an alarm for ourselves, are we really serious about our quest? and if so how to really proceed from where we are. i proposed to raise such topics from the results of this poll.

Your suggestions are welcome. Thank you. Expecting each one of you to exercise your vote.



Dear Nagraj,

I am unmarried & not sure were my destiny takes me on this. Some times I feel difficult to follow the quest of spirituality & however try my level best to be on it. When I was not spiritual I was not concerned of any thing & used to do any thing with out a second thought but now even though some times I cannot control my sences but still I give a second thought wether to do a thing or not.

I agree on a point which u have made, that it becomes routine for us coming to this forum & forget to implement what we learn from here or take it forward. It all depends on us & how serious are we, so it is a personal quest & how commited one is. However even if it becomes a routine exercise it acts as a reminder or a wake up call at times. I am so thank ful to this forum that what ever spirituality I have gained, its only through this platform with the sympathy & grace of Arunaachala & our master.

Om Arunaachaleshwaraaya Namaha!
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: deepa on February 11, 2013, 06:43:29 AM
Vinod-ji
It is nice that you are at a juncture to make this decision.

I know 2 people who wanted to become sanyasis, but who did not get their guru's blessings to do so. One of them was my maternal grandfather - I thank his guru, otherwise I would not be here writing this  ;)

In a sense, those who commit to sanyasa already know that the world the "anatma" (not just say the words, but truly see the world as anatma). They may not have realized the "atma" yet, atleast the first part of ignorance is already addressed maybe in previous births. 
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Vinod on February 11, 2013, 09:12:09 AM
Deepa Ji,

Talking about Sanyasis, there are also certain set of people who dont want to take any responsibilities & as an excuse adopt an option called Sanyasi. My nephew, he is the only son to his parents who r financially very weak & he did not study well, doesnt do any work & reads all the mythological/spiritual books & preaches his parents not to eat non veg & other things & fails his primary responsibilities being a son.

My friends Uncle is a married guy, also had kids but after few years of married life he left his family & now lives somewhere near parvathamalai hills as a sadhu. So there are certain set of people who adopt spirituality(as an excuse) & become sanyasi to escape from the worldly responsibility.

There are also beggers who transform themselves as a sadhu to earn easy money & do all things which they are not supposed to do.

There are also category like Nityaananda etc on whom I dont want to waste time by typing.

***My comments are purely personal & not to hurt any ones feelings/sentiments***

Om Arunaachaleshwaraaya Namaha!
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 11, 2013, 09:29:56 AM
Dear Sri Vinod,

I am unmarried & not sure were my destiny takes me on this. Some times I feel difficult to follow the quest of spirituality & however try my level best to be on it. When I was not spiritual I was not concerned of any thing & used to do any thing with out a second thought but now even though some times I cannot control my sences but still I give a second thought wether to do a thing or not.

I agree on a point which u have made, that it becomes routine for us coming to this forum & forget to implement what we learn from here or take it forward. It all depends on us & how serious are we, so it is a personal quest & how commited one is. However even if it becomes a routine exercise it acts as a reminder or a wake up call at times. I am so thank ful to this forum that what ever spirituality I have gained, its only through this platform with the sympathy & grace of Arunaachala & our master.

I would just like to express some of my thoughts. Firsty, I came to understand, that what has already happened, were the results of our prarabdha, there  is no way we can think about our past, what we did in the past, has brought us to where we are now. I believe, we have the wisdom to chose our course of actions now, for the ultimate good with the help of scriptures and the words of Gurus. Also, it is only our past good actions or deeds that only bring us near even such a light, otherwise we will be one among everybody, moving about just existing away the life.

Life has to be lived, and consciously, as we have been bestowed with the power of discrimination, so we have the ability to discriminate. IT is very important to sit and carefully look at your life at this juncture, as it is these few years that will decide the course of your future. It is common in families to start looking for marriage when the boy or girl is around the primal age (Pls read Sri Ravi's posts, he has covered the subtle points, so appropriate) the boy or girl also, imagine, yes, everybody get married, so i should also get married and things eventually take shape thus.

One has to ponder about marriage, find out what marriage really is, what are the true commitments of marriage, the responsibilities towards one's spouse, how the life is going to take shape, what is the purpose, what is the common goal, what should be the ideals and so on. Majority of marriages taking place today is simply marriage of convinience, the ironically, the primary ideal being earning, reproducing, working, sending kids to school, buying house, and saving for retired life, and once retirement comes, people do not seem to have a clue as to what to do, how to pass time, and i have seen so many brood saying i have wasted my youth, i got so many opportunities to learn vedas, spiritual wisdom came ringing towards me, but i did not recognise the importance of that. I was more eager to flourish in life, earn money, build luxury, name, and so on. These days, people openly say that their first kid was just accident, its really shocking, the world is so unconsciously living, just existing.

Secondly, if you are deeply spiritual, you are obliged to think twice and thrice before getting married, and really take extreme patience and communicate with great clarity what is your purpose of life is to the girl who is getting married and even if it takes time, it is best to get married to one who is atleast wiling to be supportive to a moderate extent if not completely. Without taking such points into considerations, if you get married to some girl whose horoscope matches with yours, then the entire life will be a compromise, but turns out to be a great life teacher.

On the other hand, if you truly feel, you are not inclined to lead a married life, prefer the life of solitude, you have to think twice thrice and even much more, firstly, I believe you must take your parents into confidence, mostly from your mother. Mother's acceptance is the ultimate word. Sort out the matter with your parents, explain patiently about your purposes and slowly you can make them understand. But then even after you get their acceptance, it is not done yet, you have to sort your own life from here. What are you going to do. How are you going to lead your life, you need to be anchored in the proper way and also require tapas, these things, you must slowly discern and make your way out, and remembering your parents on hand as well.

Another point of importance is, indecision is curse, if you feel you are spiritually inclined and have less or no interest in worldly life and get married, it would be a grave injustice done upon the girl whom you will marry who will have atleast some aspirations, if she is not yet deeply spiritual. while you may have no interest in money luxury life and your spouse having reasonable flare for all the wonderful things of life, this is very bad, this should not happen, else you must be spiritually strong enough to earn money just for the sake of your spouse, reasonably do justice to the marriage.

What are the options if you are not married, you can remain brahmacharya life long, naishtika brahmacharya, or sanyasam. What kind of life are these, you need to acquaint further from reliable source. We all need Physical Guru. Only one is million may not need, Rarest of rare was Bhagavan. Muruganar, Annamalai Swami and many others came running towards Bhagavan, did they not have enough knowledge, did Muruganar who drank the nectar of Bhagavan's teachings still required the presence of Bhagavan. So, we must also not fall to the "knowledge Trap" I have always believe that even Ignorance trap can be escaped slowly, but knowledge trap is very very tough!

Long back when Abdul Kalam was president, in an interview, the interviewer addressed him as a bachelor, Dr Kalam took quick notice and corrected him saying, don't say I am a bachelor, I am brahmacharya. There is a huge difference between the two. There is no purpose living a bachelor life, but one must aspire to live the life of Brahmacharya if unmarried.

I know of many to are unmarried, who are good people, but are just existing it away. The aspiration aimed should be God.

These, i have very generally mentioned, there are very many subtle points which one needs to carefully discern oneself.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 11, 2013, 09:45:30 AM
Another point, which i forgot to mention is unsaid understood, however,

if we recklessly decide not to marry in order to lead a spiritual life and later we find ourselves neither here nor there is the worst of worst thing that can happen.

This is tricky and yet very important point of life. One has to be very careful.

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 11, 2013, 10:06:27 AM
Talking about Sanyasis, there are also certain set of people who dont want to take any responsibilities & as an excuse adopt an option called Sanyasi. My nephew, he is the only son to his parents who r financially very weak & he did not study well, doesnt do any work & reads all the mythological/spiritual books & preaches his parents not to eat non veg & other things & fails his primary responsibilities being a son.

My friends Uncle is a married guy, also had kids but after few years of married life he left his family & now lives somewhere near parvathamalai hills as a sadhu. So there are certain set of people who adopt spirituality(as an excuse) & become sanyasi to escape from the worldly responsibility.

I wanted to express on the above concerns. There are many who criticize even Buddha, Raghavendra for they left left their wives and small kid in the lurch and became a Sadhu. Perhaps it is not that easily observed in Buddha or Raghavendra because they are famous.

But the truth is, i heard from some wise person is this, that upon extreme dispassion and with the taste of yathartham (fact) they realise  that they are absolutely helpless to care for their family, it is this profound wisdom that makes them leave their family, as they realise what they truly are, unsaid (nothing!)

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: silentgreen on February 11, 2013, 10:19:29 AM
d: Shall I marry?

cguru: You know yourself. What is your deepest aspiration will prevail whether you are married or not. Whatever helps that, try to pursue that path.

d: umm...I am still not able...you know me very long, why don't you suggest?

cguru: Then listen to this story and decide. A son who was spiritually minded after his studies wrote to his parents that he wont return and taking a job live a contemplative life. The parents by trick brought him home somehow and took him to a party to socialize. The son stood in a corner since he was not accustomed to all these neither liked such environment. The parents said that you go around and ask normal question like "are you married?", "how many children do you have?" etc.

The son went to a lady.
son: Are you married?
lady1: Yes
son: How many children do you have?
lady1: Two, one boy, one girl
son: Nice, so what are they studying ....etc etc... and the conversation went on for 15 minutes.

After the initial success the son was enthused and went to another lady.
son: Are you married?
lady2: No
son: How many children do you have?
lady: (Angrily) Whaaat?

The son realised his confusion and somehow escaped. He then went to another lady.

son: How many children do you have?
lady3: Four
son: Are you married?
The lady shouted, gathered some people and threw the son out of the party.

The son thought: if this is my condition before marriage, what will be my condition after marriage. Let me return to my own life.

d: Oh! my god
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 11, 2013, 10:25:04 AM
Dear Silentgreen,

I wonder how you craft out such excellent conversations :D It is definitely fit to be published as a book!

d: Shall I marry?

cguru: You know yourself. What is your deepest aspiration will prevail whether you are married or not. Whatever helps that, try to pursue that path.

Brilliantly put!

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 11, 2013, 11:17:51 AM
vinod/Nagaraj/friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"Are father and mother mere trifles? No spiritual practice will bear fruit unless they are
pleased. Chaitanya was intoxicated with the love of God. Still, before taking to the
monastic life, for how many days did he try to persuade his mother to give him her
permission to become a monk! He said to her: 'Mother, don't worry. I shall visit you every
now and then.'
(To M., reproachfully) "And let me say this to you. Your father and mother brought you up.
You yourself are the father of several children. Yet you have left home with your wife. You
have cheated your parents. You have come away with your wife and children, and you feel
you have become a holy man. Your father doesn't need any money from you; otherwise I
should have cried, 'Shame on you!
'"
Everybody in the room became grave and remained silent.
MASTER: "A man has certain debts to pay: his debts to the gods and rishis, and his debts
to mother, father, and wife. He cannot achieve anything without paying the debt he owes to
his parents. A man is indebted to his wife as well. Harish has renounced his wife and is
living here. If he had left her unprovided for, then I should have called him an abominable
wretch
.
"After attaining Knowledge you will regard that very wife as the manifestation of the
Divine Mother Herself. It is written in the Chandi, 'The Goddess dwells in all beings as the
Mother.' It is She who has become your mother.
"All the women you see are only She, the Divine Mother. That is why I cannot rebuke even
Brinde, the maidservant. There are people who spout verses from the scriptures and talk
big, but in their conduct they are quite different. Ramprasanna is constantly busy procuring
opium and milk for the hathayogi. He says that Manu enjoins it upon man to serve the
sadhu. But his old mother hasn't enough to eat. She walks to the market to buy her own
groceries. It makes me very angry
.
Through divine love man transcends his worldly duties
"But here you have to consider another thing. When a man is intoxicated with ecstatic love
of God, then who is his father or mother or wife? His love of God is so intense that he
becomes mad with it. Then he has no duty to perform. He is free from all debts. What is
this divine intoxication? In this state a man forgets the world. He also forgets his own body,
which is so dear to all
. Chaitanya had this intoxication. He plunged into the ocean not
knowing that it was the ocean. He dashed himself again and again on the ground. He was
not aware of hunger, of thirst, or of sleep. He was not at all conscious of any such thing as
his body."

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on February 11, 2013, 08:02:29 PM
Udai garu

Your posts are a bit harsh - but I like them ;) - you know why? They carry subtle messages that stand on their own feet without needing any quotes, stories, jnanis shoulders to lean on to. And truth is that which can stand alone on its own feet without needing supporters.

-Sanjay
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: deepa on February 11, 2013, 08:06:35 PM
vinod/Nagaraj/friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"Are father and mother mere trifles? No spiritual practice will bear fruit unless they are
pleased.

Ravi-ji,
I have not read the Gospel (though I have read some of the Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda). These are so simple, yet so profound.

Regarding the quote above regarding mother/father, how much does one balance keeping them pleased versus our sadhana. For e.g., we visit India for about 3-4 weeks which is split between both sets of parents. I usually want to take 2-4 days visiting TVmalai and Kanchipuram.

I realize place is not important, but at this stage of my growth, I believe it is very important for me to "recharge" at both these places. I also believe it is very important for my children to imbibe this early on (there is difference of opinion on this also in the family). Since my children also learn music and know stories, I love taking them to our temples in Tanjore/Kumbakonam area also. Since my in-laws are not spiritually bent, this annual trip causes such agitation among all of us (also between me and my husband since I crave this visit more than he does).

I understand they want to spend time with us and kids. But I feel like while we should do our duty to parents, but not at the expense of our sadhana. I am not able to avoid the pull of Bhagawan and also meditating in Periyava's samadhi. When I visit, I am able to detach from even that agitation and also come back to a renewed commitment for sadhana. Though I also realize they will be upset.

Is there a way to handle this at all?


Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: atmavichar100 on February 11, 2013, 09:29:34 PM
Quote
I understand they want to spend time with us and kids. But I feel like while we should do our duty to parents, but not at the expense of our sadhana. I am not able to avoid the pull of Bhagawan and also meditating in Periyava's samadhi. When I visit, I am able to detach from even that agitation and also come back to a renewed commitment for sadhana. Though I also realize they will be upset.

Is there a way to handle this at all?

Dear Deepaji

It is a very tricky situation balancing the views of the husband/in-laws along with one's personal sadhana ( i.e here visiting the Samadhi Shrine of Bhagwan Ramana and Kanchi Maha Swamigal etc ) . I suggest you appeal directly  to both these Mahans themselves to find out a way for you that helps u achieve what you want without upsetting your in-laws and husband . God , Gurus bless the deep and sincere prayers of their devotees .

Om Peace .
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: deepa on February 11, 2013, 09:56:56 PM

Thanks, atmavicharji.

I have cried in surrender.. spent all my tears last year on my inability to handle work/life as well as my "perceived" poor progress in sadhana (unable to meditate, losing patience, etc). My swamiji (from our local Chinmaya mission) has guided me to get out of that spiral and move on, by not giving place for any negative emotions towards others and myself. It has made a big change in my spiritual studies.

While earlier I would have been irritated with in-laws, family, etc, now, I am more compassionate - everybody has their own journey and their own pace. I have to surrender to Bhagawan and my guru to guide me through day-to-day decisions.

However, I still am caught between sadhana and samsara (which I guess is a good reason for this thread itself!)
When I gave up silk (and my daughter followed me), I made my mother "sad". When I refuse to eat certain foods, I make friends "sad". When I follow certain sadhana practices/values, I make my family "sad".

So, a general question, I have is - we can definitely deal with others' "needs" with compassion/sense of duty, but do we have to give into others' "wants"? With the understanding of happiness that we have, is it necessary to expend ourselves to keep all around us "happy"?



Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 11, 2013, 10:47:24 PM
Deepa,
I fully appreciate your earnestness and deep interest in laying a sound spiritual foundation for your children.You are truly blessed,being devoted to Kanchi Mahaperiyava and Sri Bhagavan.
I do understand how important and helpful it is for you to recharge and 4 days out of a 3-4 week stay in Tamil nadu is quite a reasonable time allotment for all concerned.
As I understand,your question is
1.where to draw the line when it comes to duty towards our parents?Just what is meant by Pleasing them,as Sri Ramakrishna has said?
2.How to minimize conflict?Not just in this situation but in any situation.

We can only express our Love and take care of their physical needs in terms of monetary aid if need be,take their blessings-The Key thing is not to be indifferent to their needs and estrange them.We cannot make others 'Happy'-that clearly is not in our hands but we certainly should not be the cause of their unhappiness.This we can avoid by not losing our temper and enter into heated exchange.This in itself will minimize the conflict.
The calmer and composed we are ,the lesser will be the opposition from any quarter.

Ultimately what we sow,we reap and if we stay positive and wish others well,the same thing comes back to us.The other persons are not the cause but they are just conduits through which whatever has to reach us reaches us.The moment we understand this simple law,it becomes easier for us to assume responsibility for whatever we do and whatever the outcome;We stop blaming others and this automatically lessens conflict,and not just that,we start getting a positive response from all sides.With this responsibility comes empowerment as well.

Sadhana can go on all the while and every situation can be used to our advantage in removing the dross and fueling the inner fire.

I am happy that you found the excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna engaging and helpful.Here is another excerpt from The Gospel on the theme of our discussion:
The Master was told that now and then Ram cooked his own food at home.
MASTER (to M.): "Do you too cook your own meals?"
M: "No, sir."
MASTER: "You may try it. With your meals take a little clarified butter made from cow's
milk. That will purify your body and mind."
A long conversation ensued about Ram's household affairs. Ram's father was a devout
Vaishnava and worshipped Krishna daily at home. He had married a second time when
Ram was quite young. Both the father and the stepmother lived with Ram at Ram's house.
But Ram was never happy with his stepmother, and this sometimes created a
misunderstanding between himself and his father.
They were talking about this when Ram said, "My father has gone to the dogs!"
MASTER (to the devotees): "Did you hear that? The father has gone to the dogs and the
son is all right!"
RAM: "There is no peace when my stepmother comes home. There is always some trouble
or other. Our family is about to break up. So I say, let her live with her father."
GIRINDRA (to Ram): "Why don't you too keep your wife at her father's
home?" (Laughter)
MASTER (smiling): "Are husband and wife like earthen pots or jars, that you may keep the
pot in one place and the lid in another? Siva in one place and Sakti in another?"
RAM: "Sir, we are quite happy. But when she comes the family is broken up. If such is the
case-"
Our duties to father and mother
MASTER: "Then build them a separate home. That will be a different thing. You will
defray their monthly expenses. How worthy of worship one's parents are! Rakhal asked me
if he could take the food left on his father's plate. 'What do you mean?' I said. 'What have
you become that you cannot?' But it is also true that good people won't give anyone, even a
dog, the food from their plates."
GIRINDRA: "Sir, suppose one's parents are guilty of a terrible crime, a heinous sin?"
MASTER: "What if they are? You must not renounce your mother even if she commits
adultery. The woman guru of a certain family became corrupt. The members of the family
said that they would like to make the son of the guru their spiritual guide. But I said: 'How
is that? Will you accept the shoot and give up the yam? Suppose she is corrupt; still you
must regard her as your Ishta. "Though my guru visits the tavern, still to me he is the holy
Nityananda."

I will post some more excerpts from The Gospel that deals with this theme.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 11, 2013, 11:07:22 PM
Deepa/Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Tarak of Belgharia arrived with a friend and bowed low before Sri Ramakrishna, who was
sitting on the small couch. The room was lighted by an oil lamp. A few devotees were
sitting on the floor.
Tarak was about twenty years old, and married. His parents did not allow him to come to
Sri Ramakrishna. He lived mostly at his home near Bowbazar. The Master was very fond of
him. Tarak's friend had a tamasic nature; he rather scoffed at the Master and religious ideas
in general.
MASTER (to Tarak's friend): "Why don't you go and visit the temples?"
FRIEND: "Oh, I've seen them before."
MASTER: "Is it wrong for Tarak to come here?"
FRIEND: "You know best."
MASTER (pointing to M.): "He is a headmaster."
FRIEND: "Oh!"
Master warns Tārak
Sri Ramakrishna asked about Tatak's health and talked with him at length. Tarak was ready
to leave. Sri Ramakrishna asked him to be careful about many things.
MASTER: "My good man, beware. Beware of 'woman and gold'. Once you sink in the
maya of a woman, you will not be able to rise. It is the whirlpool of the Visalakshi. He who
has fallen into it cannot pull himself out again. Come here now and then."
TARAK: "My people at home don't let me."
A DEVOTEE: "Suppose someone's mother says to him, 'Don't go to Dakshineswar.'
Suppose she curses him, saying, 'If you go there you will be drinking my blood!'"
MASTER: "A mother who says that is no mother; she is the embodiment of avidya. There
is no sin in disobeying such a mother. She obstructs her son's path to God. There is no harm
in disobeying your elders for the sake of God. For Rama's sake Bharat did not obey his
mother Kaikeyi. The gopis did not obey their husbands when they were forbidden to visit
Krishna. Prahlada disobeyed his father for God. Vali disregarded the words of Sukracharya,
his teacher, in order to please God. Bibhishana went against the wishes of Ravana, his elder
brother, to please Rama. But you must obey your elders in all other things
.

Sri Ramakrishna knew that tarak will renounce the world.He became Swami Shivananda,one of the monastic disciples of Sri Ramakrishna.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 11, 2013, 11:16:37 PM
Deepa/Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Purification of mind
There is no use in merely making a noise if you want to establish the Deity in the shrine of
your heart, if you want to realize God. First of all purify the mind. In the pure heart God
takes His seat. One cannot bring the holy image into the temple if the droppings of bats are
all around. The eleven bats are our eleven organs: five of action, five of perception, and the
mind.
First of all invoke the Deity, and then give lectures to your heart's content. First of all dive
deep. Plunge to the bottom and gather up the gems. Then you may do other things. But
nobody wants to plunge. People are without spiritual discipline and prayer, without
renunciation and dispassion. They learn a few words and immediately start to deliver
lectures. It is difficult to teach others. Only if a man gets a command from God, after
realizing Him, is he entitled to teach.

Thus conversing, the Master came to the west end of the verandah. M stood by his side. Sri
Ramakrishna had repeated again and again that God cannot be realized without
discrimination and renunciation. This made M. extremely worried. He had married and was
then a young man of twenty-eight, educated in college in the Western way. Having a sense
of duty, he asked himself, "Do discrimination and dispassion mean giving up 'woman and
gold'?" He was really at a loss to know what to do.

M. (to the Master): What should one do if one's wife says: 'You are neglecting me. I shall
commit suicide?'
 
MASTER (in a serious tone): "Give up such a wife if she proves an obstacle in the way of
spiritual life. Let her commit suicide or anything else she likes. The wife that hampers her
husband's spiritual life is an ungodly wife."

Immersed in deep thought, M. stood leaning against the wall. Narendra and the other
devotees remained silent a few minutes. The Master exchanged several words with them;
then, suddenly going to M., he whispered in his ear: "But if a man has sincere love for God,
then all come under his control - the king, wicked persons, and his wife. Sincere love of
God on the husband's part may eventually help the wife to lead a spiritual life. If the
husband is good, then through the grace of God the wife may also follow his example."

This had a most soothing effect on M.'s worried mind. All the while he had been thinking:
"Let her commit suicide. What can I do?"


Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: deepa on February 11, 2013, 11:22:22 PM
Ravi-ji
Very powerful story from the Gospel. For mahatmas, the "sin" was not visible.. they only saw the pure Atman. It is hard to do, but something I need to aspire for.

Swamiji also said what you suggested - be firm in your values, but always follow them with humility. As you say, I do avoid conflicts, try to explain as well as possible, try to do "prayaschitta" by doing something special for them. Inspite of that, if they feel "unhappiness", I leave that to Bhagawan.

Swamiji also says when you follow something strongly, people not following it get a uncomfortable feeling. So, I try to be as low-key as possible, but the draw of satsang is too strong!! (which is why even in the middle of a busy day at work, I try to visit this forum  :D)

Anyway, thanks to all of you for your valuable guidance.
Deepa





Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 11, 2013, 11:25:06 PM
Deepa,
you may mail me .My email id is niveditahr@rediffmail.com
I wish to share a wonderful small book by Master TGN called இல்லற வாழ்க்கையில் இணக்கமும் இனிமையும்.TGN is a living jnAni and this book is a rare treasure that we gift to most couples and elders as well.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Jewell on February 11, 2013, 11:29:39 PM
Quote
      So, a general question, I have is - we can definitely deal with others' "needs" with compassion/sense of duty, but do we have to give into others' "wants"? With the understanding of happiness that we have, is it necessary to expend ourselves to keep all around us "happy"?   

Dear Deepaji,

This is wonderful observation of Yours,and my answer on this is,absolutely Not. It is quite impossible to make everyone happy,specially when everyine around You have expectation how You should live;and how You should behave. More because,people in general are driven with completely wrong values,and all what we all do is pretty much selfish. I was going through some similar situation,and the moment i desided to say no to demand of others,was the best moment in my life. Sometimes,no matter we do,people will be unsatisfied,and find mire ways to ask this and that. And actualy,we dont do anything,all are live their life in the best way we can,so there is no question of doing something wrong. We cannot please all,and we dont need to,coz,first,they sometimes have some totaly unreasonable expectations,which doasnt have anything with reality of things,and second,we are not here to become comodity,but masters of our destiny.
For me,most important thing is to respect all,to help in the best way we can,to comfort,to give joy,all in all,to be fair and rightous. But,no one have the right to interfere in our life. That is,if You ask me,very selfish and unreasonable expectation. I can give them all,but i cannot sold then my soul. Specialy,when their demands dont have anything with the truth,but are driven with their own fears,expectations,and unfullfiled dreams. So,to do all in the best possible way,to be human and good,but to hold Your integrity and values no matter what. Everything have its limits.
Then,all are bound to follow that,when they see You dont do actualy nothing wrong. And,sooner or later,they all see that,believe me. It is my impression. Also,our goal is most important of all,and for me if someone wants to be free he needs to be free in every way,to shun all chains. When we do that,sure,in best and most painles way,God cleans our path for us. Then,there is no more question of compromise,coz all around us,start sudenly being supportive. Than,puzzle is getting to be solved,and that sure means all will be like it supose to be. We sure dont let go our family to struggle,and leave our duties,which are anyway even just human way,we would not leave even stranger to suffer. That is my thinking and experience.

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: deepa on February 11, 2013, 11:31:10 PM
There is no harm
in disobeying your elders for the sake of God. For Rama's sake Bharat did not obey his
mother Kaikeyi. The gopis did not obey their husbands when they were forbidden to visit
Krishna. Prahlada disobeyed his father for God. Vali disregarded the words of Sukracharya,
his teacher, in order to please God. Bibhishana went against the wishes of Ravana, his elder
brother, to please Rama. But you must obey your elders in all other things
.

I like this!!



Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Vinod on February 12, 2013, 05:07:27 AM
Talking about Sanyasis, there are also certain set of people who dont want to take any responsibilities & as an excuse adopt an option called Sanyasi. My nephew, he is the only son to his parents who r financially very weak & he did not study well, doesnt do any work & reads all the mythological/spiritual books & preaches his parents not to eat non veg & other things & fails his primary responsibilities being a son.

My friends Uncle is a married guy, also had kids but after few years of married life he left his family & now lives somewhere near parvathamalai hills as a sadhu. So there are certain set of people who adopt spirituality(as an excuse) & become sanyasi to escape from the worldly responsibility.


I wanted to express on the above concerns. There are many who criticize even Buddha, Raghavendra for they left left their wives and small kid in the lurch and became a Sadhu. Perhaps it is not that easily observed in Buddha or Raghavendra because they are famous.

But the truth is, i heard from some wise person is this, that upon extreme dispassion and with the taste of yathartham (fact) they realise  that they are absolutely helpless to care for their family, it is this profound wisdom that makes them leave their family, as they realise what they truly are, unsaid (nothing!)



Dear Nagraj,

People like them are not worth to be compared with such great souls & I understand what you are trying to say here. But the people I have mentioned, they "adopted" spirituality for being lazy, so they can escape from their responsisbility. U can find many people like them these days who are also earning easy money with out bending their backs, which shouldnt be the way.

Buddha & Raghavendra are exceptions & were totally inclined to spirituality. They did not use it as an excuse to escape from the responsibilities. Since it was was their passion/reason to survive they have excelled in it.

Om Arunaachaleshwaraaya Namaha!
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: deepa on February 12, 2013, 07:13:15 AM

There are still situations where they are me drawn to Sanyas and not able to participate in grihasthashrama. One example is Swami Shantananda Puri of Vashista Guha who is usually at Ramanashram during winter months. He usually stays in a room behind the samadhis of Major chadwick, Sadhu Om, etc. He waited until his son was settled and his wife could be cared for before taking Sanyas.

It may be a loss for his family, but countless people have benefited from his teaching and guidance.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: atmavichar100 on February 12, 2013, 07:18:27 AM
Quote
Dear Nagraj,

People like them are not worth to be compared with such great souls & I understand what you are trying to say here. But the people I have mentioned, they "adopted" spirituality for being lazy, so they can escape from their responsisbility. U can find many people like them these days who are also earning easy money with out bending their backs, which shouldnt be the way.

Buddha & Raghavendra are exceptions & were totally inclined to spirituality. They did not use it as an excuse to escape from the responsibilities. Since it was was their passion/reason to survive they have excelled in it.

Om Arunaachaleshwaraaya Namaha!

Vinod/Nagaraj/Others

If spiritual feelings dominate a person , he/she will have less inclination to work i.e less inclination to be more Rajasic but will have more sattvic feelings . Problem is many people become more Tamasic and mistake it for sattva . A saint and a lazy person will look same from outside i.e both of them will not be very active but a saint will be inwardly awake and alert while a lazy person will be inwardly dull and lazy .
Last Sunday I was listening to Swami Paramarthananda's Gita Lecture on Ch-5 "Sannyasa Yoga" and he said that people taking to Sannyasa without adequate preparation will face a big downfall as in Sannyasa there is no duty / compulsion to earn one's living and unless one is under the Guidance of a Good Guru / Ashram which trains that person systematically in spiritual sadhana ,if that person is left to himself then he will become lazy and develop Tamasic qualities as an "Empty Mind is a devil's workshop" .
That is why in Sivananda Ashram when u join there , they give u lot of work to remove the Tamas first and side by side train you in spiritual sadhana and follow the normal order i.e first convert Tamas to Rajas and then Rajas to Sattva .The same also applies to other Traditional Organizations like Ramakrishna Mutt ,Chinmaya Ashram etc .
So we need to be careful to see that our interest in spiritual matters do not make us more Tamasic and more than that we must not mistake our Tamas as Sattva .
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: atmavichar100 on February 12, 2013, 07:27:20 AM

There are still situations where they are me drawn to Sanyas and not able to participate in grihasthashrama. One example is Swami Shantananda Puri of Vashista Guha who is usually at Ramanashram during winter months. He usually stays in a room behind the samadhis of Major chadwick, Sadhu Om, etc. He waited until his son was settled and his wife could be cared for before taking Sanyas.

It may be a loss for his family, but countless people have benefited from his teaching and guidance.

Deepaji

You must read Ch-5 of Bhagavad Gita "Sannyasa Yoga" which talks about Arjuna's dilemma between following Karma Marga / Sannyasa Marga .
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Vinod on February 12, 2013, 08:05:50 AM
Dear Deepa & Atmavichar,

Thats affirmative!

Om Arunaachaleshwaraaya Namaha
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: deepa on February 12, 2013, 08:42:42 AM
Quote
.
So we need to be careful to see that our interest in spiritual matters do not make us more Tamasic and more than that we must not mistake our Tamas as Sattva .

Yes, I agree that I fall a prey to this sometimes. Dropping of some interests leaves us more time free that in turn make me lazy. I set myself some goals to read, learn something new, listen to lectures, etc. if I don't replace old activities with new, I fear i will become too tamasic.

The goal is be silent and still, without feeling restless or sleepy. But not there yet.


Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 12, 2013, 11:01:26 AM
Television

One who is genuienly serious of spiritual quest, should stop watching television altogether. For such a serious person, whatever station of life one may be in, watching television must be stopped. I believe there is no such thing like moderation for wathing television.

What may help us from watching television? We may ponder.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 12, 2013, 11:11:58 AM
Udai, please cease from spoiling the sanctity of this thread. Thank you!
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: atmavichar100 on February 12, 2013, 11:24:09 AM
Television

One who is genuienly serious of spiritual quest, should stop watching television altogether. For such a serious person, whatever station of life one may be in, watching television must be stopped. I believe there is no such thing like moderation for wathing television.

What may help us from watching television? We may ponder.

Nagaraj

I agree that watching excess of TV mindlessly, surfing too much on net mindlessly is quite harmful ( note the word mindlessly ) . The problem is not much on TV/Internet but our reckless and mindless way in which we use them .
I knew a person who claimed that he is very spiritual and removed TV from his house saying he wanted to be away from the harmful effects of TV . But the problem was in office he surfs the net a lot as he was curious of what is happening in the world . He claimed he does not watch Cricket Match on TV but in office he was constantly looking at Cricinfo for Cricket updates when a match was in progress . Actually he is not supposed to surf the net during office hours as the Company is paying him to do the work . After few months he was sacked from his work for being highly unproductive in his work .
Another person I know wanted to cut on his eating by half and started eating only 50% of what he used to eat daily i.e instead of 4 Idlis he started eating 2 , instead of one big bowl of rice he stared eating a half a bowl of rice and so on . But he did not loose weight as he was secretly munching salted cashed / nuts /dry fruits/Chocolates  and I saw lot of dry fruit packs/Chocolates  in his draw . Actually dry fruits /Chocolates have more calories than 2 Idlis or some excess rice .Just because they are in small quantities it is not visible as Calories but as he was hungry the body was seeking other avenues to compensate the hunger in the form of dry fruits and chocolates .
This is the problem with many spiritual people .
Actually if we try to avoid something forcibly ,what we try to avoid will come in another form and trouble us  . So let us be  quite practical and avoid extremes . Once you progress on the spiritual path then many un-necessary things ( basically tamasic / rajasic activities ) will automatically drop by themselves .
I will later share a personal example of Swami Sivananda Himself of how going to extremes early on the spiritual path is dangerous .
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: silentgreen on February 12, 2013, 11:25:37 AM
Hi Nagaraj,

I completely agree with you. Those who are serious will understand and follow it. This is like Brahmacharya.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Vinod on February 12, 2013, 11:48:18 AM
Dear Atmavichar,

Very beautifully explained with due respect and non offensive way  and esp without making fun of others expressions.

Om arunaachaleshwaraaya namaha
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Vinod on February 12, 2013, 12:30:25 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

I forgot to express my gratitude for the valuable suggestion u have shared reg marriage and life.

Many thanks!

Om Arunaachaleshwaraaya Namaha!
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: ramana_maharshi on February 12, 2013, 12:40:54 PM
Anything which is useful for spiritual sadhana is suggested.

Nothing wrong in watching TV once in a while and mainly to watch any spiritual programmes.

Remember even bhagavan glanced newspapers in daily basis and occasionly discussed politics.

Also bhagavan also watched few spiritual movies for a while in the ashram.

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: atmavichar100 on February 12, 2013, 12:41:57 PM
Here is a real life story from Swami Sivananda's life as explained by one of his direct disciples Swami Chaitanyananda is his book "A Saga of Spiritual Unfoldment  " .

When Swami Sivananda came to Rishikesh first as a wandering monk and was staying at Swarg Ashram  , he just got only some dry rotis and simple dal as food and initially it was ok for him but day in and out having the same food again and again for many months  was really a challenge for him  and he got fed up. One day a Rich devotee who knew Swami Sivananda from his Poorva Ashrama days gave him Rs.5/- ( In today's equivalent it is equal to Rs.500/-) and he immediately went to the Bazzar area in Rishikesh and found a Sweet Shop and bought 3 kgs of sweets ( Jilabeis ) for that Rs.5 and ate all in one stroke .
Swami Sivananda used to highlight this incident from his own life to struggling sadhaks that mind will always find a way to trick a person and one needs to be careful about it and not go to extremes on the spiritual path .
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 12, 2013, 12:42:15 PM
Nagaraj/Silentgreen/Krishna/friends,
All your statements are valid in a general sense.Yet we are considering the norms for a serious seeker and I certainly agree with Nagaraj.This is what TGN recommends and if my view is of any consequence,I will certainly emphasize this.
Papa Ramdas was once asked by Dilip Dadaji(Dilip Kumar Roy):Papa ,what is the way to attain Sri Krishna?
Papa replied :'If you wish to attain Krishna,you must love him not among other things but above all things"

Udai had asked:How is it watching a TV different than being connected on the Net(PC)?It is simple.No TV Program is free of commercials and there is simply no way one can filter these.We certainly can control what we browse and can be selective about it.

The other day I heard a simple thing from one colleague of mine(The Lord arranges for such lessons for us from anyone even from the least expected quarters!)
He was talking on some trivial thing and came up with this quip:
A man approached his Guru and asked:Can I meditate(smarana) when I am smoking?
Guru:Assuredly you can
Man:Can I smoke when I am meditating?
Guru:Surely not!

Where is the difference in as much as samuel johnson described a smoker as Fire at one end and fool at the other?
It depends on where one's priorities are.
If the priority is smoking(smoker described above!),surely it can  accommodate something that can help the person eventually to free himself from its entrapment.
On the other hand if the priority is meditation,surely no such thing as smoking can be admitted.Even if one is sitting on the fence as far as priority is concerned,it is better to initially persuade the mind to give up contact with such a thing.Certainly the will power gained coupled to the benefits of meditation will tilt the balance in favour of meditation,and the very desire to smoke will wither away.
In fact,it will become difficult for the devotee to watch any TV program or cinema,as his mind is turned within and not available for recreation.He hardly even hears what sound emanates from TV and what sights it displays.

Does this mean absent mindedness or lack of control?NO.He is just not interested.This is all to it.

So,to get back,yes this thread which considers what a sincere seeker should set as top priority;the verdict is clear.The Chaff is chaff and Grain is Grain.Never can the two be considered on par.No quarters to any such compromises.

I fully agree with Nagaraj.I do not for a moment suggest that others should not watch TV or entertain themselves in any other way.Please do so by all means if you wish it that way.

Wishing you the Very Best.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: silentgreen on February 12, 2013, 02:07:31 PM
d: Should we watch TV?

cguru: Yes

d: Yes?

cguru: No

d: No?
Which one?

cguru: This thread is about marriage. If you are married to TV, watch TV. If you are married to Sadhana, do Sadhana. Decide whom you want to marry.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Ravi.N on February 12, 2013, 02:25:30 PM
silentgreen,
 :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 12, 2013, 02:59:09 PM
 Friends,
Thanks to all for all your thoughts. Each one us truly benefit accorfing to our individual journeys. I think one point is taken for naturally known to each one of us that anything that has to com or change, has to come from within. There is no doubt one should not force onto oneself anything. It is known that such self coersion wont help one in any way. The purpose of all discussions specially in this topic and in general, in this forum ought to help one acquiant one with oneself the highest ideal. It is absolutely upto the sadgaha's wisdom to work his salvation, as said by buddha. Assuming on one hand that the highest ideal has to come naturally and mot forced opon oneself, and wait for it to happen of its own accord, nothing will happen, bhagavan has said grace is always there its entirely upto sadhaka to take it, if we go with a small cup, we get that much and if we go with bigger, we get that much. If we remain with vague ideals that nothing needs to be done, it would be a grave error.

Mind requires something to feed upon, bhagavan said it feeds on what you give, if you give world, objects it feeds on that if we give god, it will feed on god. Our highest aspiration has to be to feed on God. Here i remember akshara manamalai, which speaks of beong eaten by him having come to feed on him.

It is to bring to light to ourselves how much we are slaves of ourind, television is one big example, and is truly a great hindrance to ones progress.

Carl jung, said, nobody comes to consciousness without pain. Spiritual life and goal is not as easy as it is popularly costrued, specially those that encourage to just be, nothing neef be done, on the other hand, our minds being slaves of so mamy things, we are not even aware about.

If not completely, as sadhakas, we ought to strive for the ideal.

we need to prepare ourselves mentally wiser and clearer and avoid such obvious impediments such as television and the likes, many other.

Thank you, from mobile.


From mobile, spellings, sentences excuses pls.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 12, 2013, 05:28:19 PM
ask a person who lives and abides as Self and let him tell.

Ok swamiji

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: deepa on February 12, 2013, 07:43:34 PM
Mind requires something to feed upon, bhagavan said it feeds on what you give, if you give world, objects it feeds on that if we give god, it will feed on god.

Very true, Nagaraji-ji. Mind needs to grab onto something like the stick given in elephant's trunk.

On this topic, Swami Chinmayananda (I think in book "Self unfoldment") talks about suppression and sublimation. Suppression of desires will not help - since it depends on the mind's willpower. Willpower, is after all, just a function of ego and not reliable. When ego gets disturbed/upset,  willpower weakens and the desire will come back exponentially higher in power. (this is why all the starvation diets don't work - people who lose weight by starving put it all back!!)

Sublimation is when we think of our desire, analyze it and weaken the desire itself by contemplation. It can also help if a lower desire is substituted with a higher/more sublime one - for e.g., desire for watching TV with desire for reading a good book or listening to a lecture. Many of our desires are out of habit - we can slowly switch them into something better for us by building new habits to replace the old.

I feel automatically, our desires and interests change with sadhana.. they automatically drop away and don't give us as much joy as they used to.

For some of us, committing to a particular discipline (like not watching TV, not eating spicy food, etc) helps. Swami Tapovanam apparently used to take all the devotees' offerings of sweets and drop it into the Ganga as he felt it would be a unnecessary distraction for him and his disciples. Swami Sivananda's example quoted earlier shows this helps too. It is ok if others don't pursue same ideas, but there is nothing to ridicule about it.

Language has limitations and our ability to use language also has limitations. I love the forum, however, reading some of the posts is like biting into a sour taste in a otherwise perfect meal - but that is also my mind making these impressions. So, that is also part of our sadhana - to take what helps and ignore what doesn't.

Pranam,
Deepa
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 13, 2013, 04:24:42 AM
Dear Sri Deepa,

Yes, i strongly believe in what you have said. For some, they may be already in a setup that automatically facilitates or create an environment to shun what is to be shunned. There may be few who may perhaps require nothing else absolutely, but, i truly believe so in totally striving to facilitaye our main sadhana by taming ourind, which is slave of many things.

I do not see it wise to leave it tp happen all by itself. If am free, no people aroind me, alone, family, then pwrhaps these thinhs may be different. But we are in different embironment. Discipline is essential

Bhagavan has saif

 What are the rules of conduct which an aspirant (sadhaka) should follow?Moderation in food, moderation in sleep and moderation in speech.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 13, 2013, 06:29:51 AM
Some time back Sri ravi sharef a wonderful book, Spiritual Practice. Below, i provide a much shorter, abridged version of the book. Hope it is of some help to some who are intetested.

INTRODUCTION

The first impact of spirituality is one of awe at its beauty, something very emotional. But when the moment passes, there are so many doubts that arise regarding the why and what. The author of this book felt the same need. This book is an attempt to discuss the preliminary stages of practical religion. The writer does not claim to be perfect, and this book is a record of his own personal understanding of things.

IN THE OUTER COURT

Some people get the 'call of religion' and give up their worldly activities, some even go to monasteries. But very often these people are not fit for the live of religion and renunciation. They lack the preparation and qualifications without which religion can be dry, or at worst, even harmful to the individual. Religion is not so easy to come by. It requires not just an interest, but proper preparation. MANY PRELIMINARY STAGES HAVE TO BE COVERED BEFORE RELIGION CAN BE OF ANY GOOD TO MAN. Ignoring these preliminary stages as unnecsssary is a serious mistake that sadhakas can make. The vast majority of humankind is not ready for serious religion. They have attachments to sensory pleasures or strong body consciousness.

When the animal instinct is strong in man, religion only means submission to rules and following them blindly. Art, pursuit of beauty, charity and love are steps by which man's nature is elevated beyond the basic. It is not possible to circumvent these stages. Rajas must overcome Tamas and only then can Satva come up. So the first step for an aspirant is to see if he has gone beyond the grosser aspects of life and has learnt to appreciate the finer aspects of life - art, beauty, quest for knowledge, service, love etc. If these steps are discarded, bitterness and confusion results.


SANDHYA VANDANA AND KIRTANA

Apart from all that has been mentioned in the previous chapter, there are three things which are pathways - Sandhyavandana, singing the names of the lord, and Pranayama. But there are some points to be noted here also. Sandhyavandana is not equally effective in everyone. It depends on the mental frame of the doer also. There is a common misconception that doing this ritual will take one to the gates of heaven. But it is not that easily attainable. Our character is of far greater consequence than these rituals in the spiritual journey.
The same way, nama sankirtanam is not easy. It is not enough to just sing the names of the lord, but one must be totally humble and must surrender his will to that of the lord. Without this step, singing the names of the lord is not enough, and contrary to popular belief, nama sankirtanam calls for a very great amount of mental control and tuning.
IN INDIA, ESPECIALLY BENGAL PEOPLE FOLLOW THIS BHAKTHI CULT AND SING AND BECOME VERY EMOTIONAL. THIS IS DANGEROUS.
SWAMI VIVEKANANDA HAS WARNED VERY STRINGENTLY ABOUT THIS TO HIS DISCIPLE  - He has specifically advised that during meditation (or any form of thinking of the lord) avoid emotion altogether. EMOTIONALISM IS A GREAT SOURCE OF DANGER. The emotional high during kirtan might rouse the kundalini upwards, but on the cessation of that state, it runs down with an even greater force, ruining the sadhaka. All these STATES of Bhakthi are very dangerous and they invariably lead to a rise in lust when they are over. BHAKTHI OR DEVOTION, SINGING OF THE NAMES OF THE LORD, GETTING EMOTIONAL ABOUT GOD, WITHOUT ADEQUATE MENTAL PREPARATION IS FAR MORE DANGEROUS. IT HAS MORE MINUSES THAN PLUSES. This is unfortunately not spoken about much. A lot of people believe this to be the best and easiest sadhana. Far from it. Without character being attended to, without man weaning away from the lower impulses, all of these are totally useless. Art, beauty, love have greater value on the spiritual life than these rituals.

PRANAYAMA

There are certain essential conditions to Pranayama that are ignored. People think this is an easy route. Many people have gone down the path of Yoga and pranayama and it has turned fatal for them. Mind body are interlinked. One influences the other. Which is why the concept of altering / controlling breath to control the mind.
The nerves are very important for a healthy body and mind. Yet people overlook the significance of the nerves. PRANAYAMA IF PRACTISED UNWISELY CAN RUIN THE NERVES AND BRAIN COMPLETELY. Either the baser nature is repressed and the nerves are forced to carry religious and spiritual thoughts and ideas, or the sexual energy is brought into consciousness. In both these cases, physical degradation is inevitable.

So Pranayama should only be practised after careful and diligent preparation of the mind. The grosser impulses have to be done away with, the mind has to be used to thinking of the finer things of life. And then, it has to be llearnt under the guidance of a proper teacher.

INTELLECTUALISM vs SPIRITUALITY

It isi easier to know things intellectually than to be fixed in that knowledge. Intellectual knowledge is very common in spirtuality. Very often it is mistaken for true realisation. If this is the case, then why did we talk about knowledge as an important pre requisite to spirituality? Not to know the truth, but to understand the nature of all that is untrue. To rid ourselves of the grosser side. To this end, knowledge is very important. In the ultimate state, knowledge or karma are of no consequence, in the undivided, non dual state of the Absolute, but until one gets there, they are very important. To live in the world, it is important to understand the ideals of one's religion so that one may not be swayed by opposing views and ideas.

Contd...
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 13, 2013, 06:32:22 AM
ON THE THRESHOLD

So ,for a very long time, we have to play the double game - that is, slowly re train the mind to think of spiritual things, weaning it away from the material, all the while being physically immersed in it ourselves. When we are here, wr need to ask ourselves two questions - 1) is this spiritual hunger real or false, 2) will we able to sustain it till the very end. Only deep and true Vairagya should be the basis of wanting to renounce the world. Vairagya born out of someone's death, or some other tragedy in life is bound to be short lived. It is risky to take a drastic step at this phase of life. It is better to wait. UNTIL ONE IS IN THE WORLD, ONE HAS TO HAVE DISCIPLINE AND EFFICIENCY IN DISCHARGING THE WORLDLY DUTIES. THESE QUALITIES WILL COME A LONG WAY EVEN IN THE SPIRITUAL LIFE. Another important aspect to be noted is that spirtual life is a life of labour. One has to constantly do work and keep the baser things away. It is not a one time effort. It is a life long, slow, often painful thing. This has to be borne in mind before one ventures into it.

WHEN SHALL WE RENOUNCE

Only when you have the power to succeed in the worldly pursuits, then you can think of renouncing. Not being good at worldliness is a very poor reason for jumping into spirituality and guarantees failure in that dimension. One must hve everything it takes to succeed in the world, and then give it up for good. The other acid test is this. If your mind does not go in search of sensory pleasure when it is not in front of the eyes, then you are ready for renunciation. But when the object is not there, and yet you think of it, then it means that you are not yet ready to leave. THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION IS THAT OF LUST. Do you think of sex only when provoked? Or does the mind go to sex by its own? If that is the case, you are not yet ready to renounce and you need physical discipline.

It is foolish to marry for the sake of satisfying lust. If one marries, then one will never leave. Procreation is not the foremost duty of every man. It is a very foolish argument to say that one has to mmarry, get a daughter in law to serve one's parents. ONE SHOULD SERVE THE PARENTS FOR AS LONG AS THEY LIVE, AND AFTER THEY MOVE ON, ONE CAN RENOUNCE. Marrying for the sake of lust, will help one appease the lust, not conquer it. After clear understanding of all this, it is alright to renounce.

IS RENUNCIATION NECESSARY

Celibacy is the basis of all spiritual power. Wiuthout renunciation, true celibacy is not possible. Mental renunciation, renouncing everything that is not linked to God, is very essential. Even service, if not practised with this idea, can become bondage.

EXTERNAL RENUNCIATION

This is also very very important. ALL OF US ARE NOT BORN GNANIS LIKE JANAKA. BUT THAT SAID, UNTIL ONE HAS ANY DUTY LEFT IN THE WORLD (any obligation to someone else, one's parents are alive and they have to be served etc) JANAKA IS THE IDEAL FOR A SPIRITUAL ASPIRANT TO LIVE BY. At the moment when one's duties are over, one has to physically renounce and leave. The world is a place where everyone is in search of some form of self gratification. being in the world will not help a sadhaka, and will keep dragging him down. So, when time is on his side, it is better for him to externally / physically renounce the world. Renouncing things hysically will bring the latent attachment to the forefront and one will be able to deal with it. If one is in the world, one may not enjoyr pleasures every moment, but the awareness that the pleasures are in the vicinity, ready ot be be enjoyed, keeps them happy. This can be addressed if one renounces. ALSO, LIVING IN THE WORLD, ONE CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT TREAT EVERYONE EQUALLY. ONE HAS TO DO MORE FOR ONE'S OWN. This will be remedied only when one renounces the world.

IS HUMAN LOVE A HELP

No. At the stage of renunciation, even human love is a hindrance, a burden. But until one reaches that level of complete renunciation, one must actively love one's people, for it elevates one from the beastly stages of a brute. This minor refinement is the only use of this.

THE CASE OF THE UNMARRIED

If we can formally renounce the world, these questions would not even apply, but for many of us, that is not possible. There is some duty that stops us, parents who need to be attended to, someone who is dependent on us in many ways etc. Earlier, Hinduism did not allow unmarried men to live in the world. Either one got married and lived in the owrld, or one renounced and became an ascetic. BUT TODAY, UNMARRIED MEN DO LIVE IN THE WORLD. The world is more complex, more problem ridden. So if it not possible to renounce, they can live a life of service. But certain things arr to be observed. UNMARRIED MEN HAVE TO OBSERVE THE STRICTEST BRAHMACHARYA. This is the foundation of spirituality. Without this, anything else is totally meanigless and a mockery. Then comes regular spiritual practise, and then comes sevrvice. One must do some form of spritual practice - whatever is chosen, it must be done regularly and systematically. Then duties have to be discharged diligently and efficiently. Then comes interaction with humans - every interaction should be done with the idea that one is serving / interacting with God. This is called spiritualisation (of even the normal, the mundane things of life)

THE CASE OF THE MARRIED

It is more difficult for a married person to take up the spiritual path. Householder's life is a concession to the spiritual life. It is not the best. Even if married, one must follow continence. After having children, spouses must live like brother and sister. They must sleep in different rooms, or atleast different beds. It is more helpful if both husband and wife have the same goals spiritually. The other important thing is to practise periods of solitude. The other inportant thing is satsanga. He must also go to a Guru, get initiation and do what is prescribed for him.

KARMA YOGA

The mind tends to go out and look for things. It is this trait that is addressed in the due and proper obsrvance of karma yoga. Karma yoga has to be done in combination with either Bhakthi - sacrificing everything to God, or Jnana yoga - being dis associated from the deed itself and not taking ownnership of anything. This is the key that the Gita prescribes. The first stage is to do work for mind purification. The second is workng with an attitude of worship. At this stage, even being a clerk or a mechanic should be done, as if it were the service of God. Every action should be executed thinking that one is offering a flower at God's altar, or the like. With respect to work, one has to be mentally rrmoved and detached. Not hysically.

Contd..
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 13, 2013, 06:34:42 AM
BRAHMACHARYA

This means giving up sex in thought and deed. This is essential for ensuring that the kundalini is moving in higher chakras and not the baser ones. Also, sprituality puts great ppressure on the brain and nerves, and not pracitising brahmacharya will weaken it even further. Very highly sensitive nerves are essential to perceive higher spiritual truths. These nerves die when sexual energy is let out and not conserved. THE SECRET TO BRAHMACHARYA IS TO NOT GIVE IMPORTANCE TO DETAILS OF FOOD AND LIVING. The more you harp on how food and living conditions affect your sexuality adversely, the more they will. Ignoring it, is the key. It is not possible to do it fully all at once, but slowly and steadily build this up till u can live without being aware of the body at all. SOME HELPFUL HABITS ARE - Give up thought of sexuality, give up company of people who dwell on that. Be a little hard and tough on yourself. Don't sleep too less or too long. Eat lightly at night. Don't dress too warm. Do not put your body through any extremes either. DO NOT GET OBSESSED WITH ANY OF THESE THINGS. YOUR MENTAL STATE ABOUT CONSUMING FOOD IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE ACTUAL FOOD CONSUMPTION ITSELF. So if you have to eat something that is not very pure or satvic, just take it in stride. That is the most helpful attitude.

Do not be perturbed by nocturnal emission. It is natural And eventually it will also go down if the mind is brought in control. Keep the mind CALM. DO NOT AGITATE IT WITH ANYTHING. (meaning do not watch violent things, or news or stuff like that,m espoecially at night). The day after one has nocturnal emission, one could repeat the name of God more often, and maybe even observe moderate fast. MODERATION, AND NOT EXCESS IS THE KEY TO BRAHMACHARYA.

THE QUESTION OF FOOD

EAT ONLY WITH CERTAIN PEOPLE. Tthat is even more iportant that eating the right kind of food. ACIDITY IN THE BODY IS THE MAIN CAUSE OF FATIGUE. Even eating meat occassionally is alright for the normal man. Vegetarian food, avoiding spices, is the most conducive to good contemplation, but the fuss that is made on this issue, is absurd. Polluting the food affects only the spiritually advanced and not the novice, so one need not harp too much on this issue. The mental aspct is more important than that of the physical. FOOD RELATED TO SHRADDHA (DEATH CEREMONY) SHOULD BE AVOIDED BY THE SPIRITUAL ASPIRANT. (this was something Ramakrishna paramahasa used to insist on) Ramakrishna also used to say that even eating beef is better if one is good by nature, rather than be a tyrant and eat just rice and ghee. FOOD DOES NOT MAKE A MAN SPIRITUAL.

THE NECESSITY OF A GURU

The modern mind is very egotistic and individualistic. People start questioning - the truth is everywhere, it is in me also, so why do i need a Guru? This is a wrong argument. It is futile. Guru is essential is eveyr way. Through him, we go to the ishta devata or the chosen deity. Take your time to choose your Guru, but once having accepted one, you must become blind to all his flaws and mistakes, even if you find any.

SIGNS OF A TRUE GURU

There are definite lakshanas for a guru and a shishya. the disciple must have viveka and vairagya. Without that, he is not qualified to be a good student. ALTHOUGH TRUTH IS WITHOUT DIVISIONS, ONE HAS TO CHOOSE A GURU WHO IS ON THE SAME PATH AS ONE WISHES TO TRAVEL. A SHAKTHA MUST APPROACH SOMEONE WHO HAS REALISED GOD AS THE MOTHER, AND A VAISHNAVA MUST BE GUIDED BY ONE WHO HAS SEEN GOD AS VISHNU ETC. Occult powers are not indicative of advancement in spirituality. There are some other signs that Swami Vinekananda has given. They are - A true guru has more to do with the spirit of the scriptures, and lesser with the words. The second condition is that the guru must be sinles and pure because there is a lot that is taught by way of non verbal comunication also.. Third, there must be no ulterior motive in the person to teach for any reason. If all these conditions are met, then one is safe.

A disciple has to oberve the guru day and night. If he is convinced that the guru is indeed worthy, then he has to surrender himself at his feet. Then there can be no looking back. THE SEARCH FOR A GURU IS A VERY LONG ONE. UNTIL ONE FINDS THE GURU, ONE HAS TO PRAY TO GOD TO SEND HIM THE RIGHT GURU, AND BECOME BETTER IN HIMSELF. WATCH AND PRAY. WHEN THE STUDENT IS READY, THE MASTER APPEARS.

CONCLUSION

Having led one to the feet of the Guru, nothing more is yet to be done. From here, the aspirant has entered into God's mansion. The Guru wil take him where he needs to be taken, The scope of this book is to take the aspirant until this point only. Om Shanthi Shanthi Shanthih
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Vinod on February 13, 2013, 07:10:31 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

Thank you so much for knowledge sharing. It has been very informative!

Om arunaachaleshwaraaya namaha
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 13, 2013, 07:25:20 PM
Dear Sri Vinod,

Thank you, it is thoroughly an holistic approach, it has been of excellent help to me as well.

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 14, 2013, 03:10:34 AM
Friends ,

I reproduce yet another important subject below, an article by Swami Sivananda.

Conscience

Conscience is the light of the Soul that burns within the chambers of your heart. It is the little spark of celestial fire that makes known to you the presence of the Indweller, the author of the divine laws of truth and holiness. It raises the voice in protest whenever anything is thought of or done contrary to the interest of its Master.

Conscience is the voice of the Self which says ‘yes’ or ‘no’ when you are involved in a moral struggle. It is a call from within to do an act or to avoid it. Conscience is the internal monitor. Conscience is a form of truth which is the knowledge of our own acts and feelings as right or wrong. It is a sensitive balance (scales) to weigh actions. It is a guiding voice from within, the faculty or principle by which we distinguish right from wrong. This sense of duty is conscience. Scrupulousness is conscience.

Conscience is a silent teacher.Conscience is a moral faculty. It is a delicate instrument or sense that tells you then and there what is right and what is wrong. It is the soundless inner voice that shows you the path of virtue and godliness. It is indeed very, very delicate. It is very easy to stifle it, but it is so very clear that it is impossible to mistake it.

Conscience is above reason and discussion. It is a sudden, dictatory command to plunge deep into the depths of virtue, or to rise high above the level of vice. The positive elements that adorn conscience are truth, courage and justice.

Conscience is a needle that points steadily to the Pole Star :"Do this action, it is right." It warns you also: "That is wrong, do not do that.

"Conscience is a great ledger. All your offences are written and registered in this ledger. It is a terrible witness.

Conscience is the best Minister of Justice. It threatens, promises, rewards and punishes, keeping all under its control. If conscience stings you once, it is an admonition; if twice, it a condemnation. To act against the conscience is to act against reason and Divine Law.

How Conscience Operates

When you do a wrong action, the conscience pricks you. It says to you in a clear small shrill voice, "Do not do this wrong action, my friend. It will bring misery to you." A wise man at once ceases to act further.

Conscience warns you like a teacher or a friend, before it punishes you as a judge. It tells you to behave in the right manner.

Cowardice asks, "Is it safe?" Avarice asks, "Is there any gain in it?" Vanity asks, "Can I become great?" Lust asks. "Is there pleasure in it?" But conscience asks, "Is it right?" Conscience prompts you to choose the right way instead of the wrong, and informs you that you ought to do the right thing.

The first impulse of conscience is apt to be right. If there are pin-pricks and twists in the conscience, if there is a sense of shame and depression in the heart, know that you have done a wrong action. If there is exhilaration and cheerfulness, feel that you have done a virtuous action.

Contd..
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 14, 2013, 03:11:40 AM
When Conscience Can Be Relied Upon

Conscience is obscured by human sin and weakness. The faint inner voice of the Spirit is stifled by the rumbling of emotional conflicts, base impulses and dictates of the flesh. It is awakened and sharpened to new clearness through purity of conduct and practice of ethical virtues.

Conscience becomes blunt through misuse. It is even destroyed through abuse and misuse. It becomes perverted through wickedness. Uttering falsehood and taking bribes destroy the conscience altogether.

In the world people think of one thing, say another thing, and do a third thing. This is horrible, and nothing but crookedness. You must carefully watch your thought, speech and action. The little you gain by telling lies is no gain at all. You pollute your conscience and infect your subconscious mind.

The habit of telling lies will be carried over to your next birth also, and you will undergo suffering from birth to birth.

You have become insincere on account of intoxication, through selfishness and greed. You do not know exactly what you are doing. You have a clouded understanding. Your conscience will prick you severely and your heart will bleed when you come to your senses. Your heart should bleed through repentance. Only then can you purify yourself.

The habit of taking bribes is very common. If you ask anybody working in an office, "What is your salary?" he will say, "Well, my salary is only Rupees 50 but my income is about Rupees 75." This income is nothing but bribes. People are ignorant. Even the so-called educated people have no idea of the law of action and reaction, of impressions of the subconscious mind and their force. If you take bribes, you will be punished for such wrong actions. The impression of taking bribes will force you to repeat this habit even in the next birth, and you will become a dishonest man again. Your thoughts and actions are registered in the subconscious mind. You will carry your dishonesty from birth to birth and undergo great suffering.

Reduce your wants and live honestly within your means. You will have a clean conscience. You will always be free from anxiety and all kinds of worries. You will have a peaceful death. I hope you now understand the gravity of this law of action and reaction. Become a virtuous man and be truthful from the very second you read these lines. Never, never join those offices which are amenable to corruption and temptation. If you do so you will also be corrupted.

Contd..
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 14, 2013, 03:19:30 AM
The Subtle Mechanism of Conscience

A virtuous man alone can use the instrument of conscience. He alone can hear the inner voice of the soul clearly. In a wicked man this faculty is dead. The sensitive nature of his conscience has been destroyed by sin or corruption. Hence he is unable to discriminate right from wrong.

If you do wrong actions and sinful deeds and treat them lightly today, you will not hesitate to perform serious crimes tomorrow. If you allow one sin to enter and dwell in your conscience, you certainly pave the way for the entry of a thousand sins. Your conscience will become blunt and lose its sensitivity. The habit of doing evil deeds will pervade the whole body like the poison of a scorpion.

When an honest man begins to take bribes for the first time, he shudders. His conscience quivers and trembles, and he feels very uneasy. If he repeats the act several times, his conscience becomes blunt. He does not feel any uneasiness at all. If a chaste man begins to visit a house of ill-fame for the first time, his conscience pricks him and he shudders. If he goes there frequently. It becomes blunt and he feels nothing. The inner mechanism of consistence is very subtle. Keep it sensitive by doing virtuous deeds only.

How to Cultivate a Pure Conscience

Always keep the conscience bright and sharp by adhering to truth, righteousness and virtue. It will be your constant, elevating companion.

Virtuous acts, charity, benevolence, nobility, generosity, acts of mercy, and practice of truthfulness, celibacy and non-injury, sharpen the conscience.Food plays an important role in the development of a pure conscience. Pure food helps a man to have a clean conscience, whereas animal food makes it impure. It produces a hard crust on the surface of the conscience and blunts it totally.

A Clear Conscience and a Guilty Conscience

A man of clear conscience is ever pure, joyful and cheerful. A man of guilty conscience is morose and cheerless.

A man of pure and clean conscience sleeps happily and wakes up happily. He moves about happily in this world. He attains happiness in this world and in the next. A man of guilty conscience is restless and unhappy in this world and in the next also.

A man with a guilty conscience is dead even while living.

Health of the Soul

A clean conscience discerns evil quickly and shuns it. A good conscience bestows on you ease, serenity, joy and happiness. It prevents calamities, troubles, afflictions and miseries.

A good conscience is the temple of God, the paradise of bliss. It helps the aspirant to reach the goal quickly.

What good health is to the body, good conscience is to the soul. There is inward satisfaction of conscience when a good action is done, when virtue is practised, when you lead a virtuous life.

The most natural beauty in the world is honesty and moral truth. Be beautiful within. Have a clean conscience, be virtuous in thought, word and deed. Physical beauty fades ultimately.

Consciousnes of the voice of wisdom speaks in all the Lord’s creations, but the little, finite, impure human intellect does not comprehend it. Purify your mind, O arrogant, self-willed man! Tune your mind-radio by cleaning it; hear His voice and become wise. The voice of the soul will lead you to safety, truth, peace and immortal bliss.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 15, 2013, 08:47:39 PM
These forum discussions are addictive. Even though we gain something its a great sucker of our entire energies an focus. We must regulate ourselves.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: atmavichar100 on February 15, 2013, 08:58:02 PM
These forum discussions are addictive. Even though we gain something its a great sucker of our entire energies an focus. We must regulate ourselves.

Nagaraj

You wanted to avoid watching TV but now got caught in Net/Forum Discussions . I had already mentioned the example of a person known to me who did the same i.e avoided TV and landed up with the same problem as you ( i,e got caught up in net addiction ) .

The problem is neither in Net /Forum/TV /Cell Phone but how we regulate them as your own statement says .
Anyway being an Arunachala Forum , nothing goes waste . All discussions here definitely have some impact in due course .I myself found lot  of value in many of yours posts and comments here .

Om Peace .

Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 15, 2013, 09:01:21 PM
Sri Atmavichar

The moment i opened the topic on question on television i have stopped watching tv and i pray seriously intend to carry it on. With the grace of bhagawan this also will follow when he wills. And i will know when i get that call from within.

It is possible.
Title: Re: Subject of Marriage
Post by: Nagaraj on February 16, 2013, 06:17:26 AM
According to some legend an emperor when he was jailed after a bad defeat, observed a spider spinning a web, trying to make a connection from one area of the cave's roof to another. Each time the spider failed, it began again until it succeeded. Inspired by this, the emperor returned to inflict a series of defeats on the English, thus winning him more supporters and eventual victory. "if at first you don't succeed, try try again." We should always remember this watching the spider make its attempt seven times, succeeding on the eighth try! 

Point to note is that the Spider's effort on all 7 occassions were made with utter sincerity and maximum effort!

Like how Krishna says in Gita Uddharet Atmanaatmanam - the Self is both your friend (Devas) and your enemy (Asuras). When your find yourself being pulled by your own bad self (Asuras), you have to pull yourself(Devas) back again to poise.