The Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

Ramana Maharshi => The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi => Topic started by: silence on January 16, 2013, 10:33:46 PM

Title: Destroying vasanas
Post by: silence on January 16, 2013, 10:33:46 PM
Friends,

It seems to me that vasanas are the real problem. One can know, at least theoretically, that one is pure awareness but vasanas prevent actual realization. The self is always there, never disappears. In spite of that, we don't realize it, so I take it removing vasanas should be our only task (since no effort is necessary to be the self, we already are the self). Am I right about this?

Thanks,
Silence
Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Subramanian.R on January 17, 2013, 08:32:06 AM
Dear silence,

Concentration or meditation on the Self is the only way. Meditation on the Self helps one progress in Self Inquiry and thus vasanas
would be annihilated in due course, after strenuous practice.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 10:49:19 AM
Dear Sri Silence,

Kindly please see my post in My Musings, by following the link below, it may of interest to you -

http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=7164.msg41644#new (http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=7164.msg41644#new)

Harih Om

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 10:53:51 AM
         :) Making the Vasanas non-binding ... thats the right way of putting it.
Vasanas get the power to bind due to ignorance.
ignorance is identification with body, mind, intellect, ego etc. This is ignorance.
I am body
I am mind
I am intellect
I am ego

this is ignorance.

when ignorance is undone... vasanas become non-binding ... they lose their power to bind.
this is liberation.

Dear Sri Udai,

while one is sitting upon fire, will it help to affirm as the fire is non binding, can the affirmations such as I am not body, i am atma, i am not mind I am atma, I am not intellect I am atma, I am not ego I am atma help?

The was as revealed by Bhagavan is to root out the Vasanas by tracing their original source, that is the way.

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 11:05:44 AM
All Vasanas become non-binding when Ignorance is destroyed.
The question as to how ignorance is destroyed is not discussed here.

is there any difference between destroying vasanas and undoing ignorance.

when ignorance is undone

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 11:09:28 AM
and Udai,

your argument that vasanas are non binding when ignorance is destroyed is not fully correct, for the natural maintainances of body cannot be called or termed as vasanas, irrespective of our efforts the breathing goes on, the heart beat goes on, the hunger calls and all of it goes on, vasanas is quite different, the body takes care of its needs, it is only the additional desires that emanates from oneself is termed as vasanas,

like we discussed yesterday, anger need not trouble you as you say you are awareness, but the anger ending up troubling somebody else, you cannot escape by saying you are awareness, that anger ought to be rooted. We cannot say anger is non-binding here.

There is no anger in a Sage. point blank.

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 11:17:53 AM
Dear Udai,

:)
I am thoroughly open minded, if what is conveyed is truly resonating, i do not have least qualms in accepeting it and surrendering myself to what is truth, as truth is really humbling.

When ignorance goes Vasanas goes along with it or when Vasanas goes, ignorance goes along with it. It is not right to distinguish between the two.

They are both one and the same.

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 11:20:48 AM
Vasana is not just natural maintenance of body...

request to please read what i have conveyed, i have not said in my post natural maintainance of body is vasanas, request to please not to misquote so that the discussion can go on in the right spirit.

and Udai,

your argument that vasanas are non binding when ignorance is destroyed is not fully correct, for the natural maintainances of body cannot be called or termed as vasanas, irrespective of our efforts the breathing goes on, the heart beat goes on, the hunger calls and all of it goes on, vasanas is quite different, the body takes care of its needs, it is only the additional desires that emanates from oneself is termed as vasanas,

like we discussed yesterday, anger need not trouble you as you say you are awareness, but the anger ending up troubling somebody else, you cannot escape by saying you are awareness, that anger ought to be rooted. We cannot say anger is non-binding here.

There is no anger in a Sage. point blank.

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 11:24:51 AM
Each one of us is uniqe ... we had unique experieces and memories... unique in terms of likes and dislikes ... for example you may like a particular temperature. Someoen else dislikes it. Taht is vasana. And diffeernt vasanas. But when one is put in a temperature thats not conducive, that is when we see if it is binding or not. IF it is binding, one feels not just a discomfort but unhappiness and a sense of lacking.
if its non-binding ... the acceptance is complete and one sees the discomfort as discomfort and leaves it there.

I think we can leave out these small vasanas in our discussion, lets focus on the major vasanas, kama krodha lobha madha matsarya.

we need not really spend so much time in discussing what Vasanas truly are, the Sages have revealed them already, they are the following as  -

love (Kama), anger (Krodha), avarice (Lobha), lust (Moha), pride (Madha), unhealthy competition (Matsarya), jealousy (Asooya)

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 11:34:47 AM
लोकवासनया जन्तोः शास्त्रवासनयापि च ।
देहवासनया ज्ञानं यथावनैव जायते ॥२७१॥


lokavaasanayaa jantoh shaastravaasanayaapi ca
dehavaasanayaa jnyaanam yathaavanaiva jaayate . 271

People cannot attain Realisation because of their desire to run after the world, their thirst for unnecessary study of the scriptures and their anxiety to pamper the body.

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 11:38:15 AM
Big Vasanas small vasana, there is nothing like big or small, for sure,

but the spirit of what was being conveyed is simply that we fail to take notice of the big elephant that be visible to our naked eye, where as we study deeply with a subtle brain and telescopic analyses.

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 11:43:09 AM
if I understand that Knowledge of Shastras is only a luxury and does not define me ... my knowledge of shastras no more remains a hinderance ... as in the case of shankara who read so many shastras !!
so a vasana to read shastras is it binding it itself ? When I think it "Defines ME" and "Feel Proud" ... thats when it gains power and binds me ! when I know its a luxury ... when I see it as just a tool ... I read and yet remain untouched !! Like Shankara.

these expressions of yours are very vague, abstract, unclear.

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 11:46:04 AM
The beggar feels miserable ... when he knows he is the King who is playing role of a beggar ... situations wont change, but he is all joy. Still he loves a different temprature perhaps ... he has the choice to go into his palace and stay in conducive temperature ... but he does not coz he has chosen to act like the beggar with a purpose ... there is discomfort in the robes he wears ... the dust on his body ... but when he knows he is the King and lives in the beggar robes, its different from when he thinks he is the beggar and lives in the beggar robes!

Vasanas are robes. .. one of the pancha koshas.

ok, how through this example are you trying to say, that one may overcome ones vasanas? can one disrobe ones vasanas as the beggar?

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 11:49:45 AM
My main point to your views regarding Vasanas is narrowed down to this -

That just belief and understanding that Vasanas do not bind one is not enough,

It may be true, Vasanas may not really bind one, but the Vasanas have to be overcome.

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: ramana_maharshi on January 17, 2013, 12:29:14 PM
Quote
Vasanas are preferences ... related to body-mind ... due to your upbringing!
Its ignorance that sets them to fire.


Udai garu,

I agree with your above analysis sir.

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 03:30:19 PM
Udai,

I do not resonate with the line of view that there is one - binding vasanas, and the other non binding vasanas, which can continue. It is certainly not correct way to put it. what is meant when you say non binding vasanas can continue? continue for whom? so it implies, "to me" - as the answer, 'who am I' has to still continue. without enquiring the source of this 'I' , it is not enough even if so called non binding vasanas can continue! Unless the person to whom it continues is dissolved, it is not the end yet.

The way i see is that the the destruction of Vasanas is moksha, vasanakshayam moksham, as said by Shankara, now what you are presenting are speculation as to how the state will be like for the one who has freed oneself from binding vasanas and what sort of vasanas will be around him, etc... what i do discern is that one has to persist with the quest for Self, when one truly engages ones whole self with absolute steadfastness, there is no vasanas, only when one breaks from the tapas one falls into the grip of vasanas. when one is engaged in tapas, there is no talk of vasanas, only when one discontinues from the tapas one is flooded with all opinions.

Even the knowledge that vasanas has to be killed etc... understanding the true purport etc.. all these also come into picture only when one has discontinued from tapas.

Even the opinion that a Jivanmukta simply responds to only those karmas that present before him also is only the view of the onlooker alone.

the point is liberation cannot be defined at all. it is beyond anything one attempts to define.

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 04:35:56 PM
Sri Tushnim,

I just read carefully, i somehow would prefer to stick to the traditional paramparic teachings. I would stick to my kula Guru (Sringeri and Paramacharya), and Sri Ramana as well never gave such explicit statements, he simply turns back the 'I' to the source, and Sri Ramakrishna as well has not given such explicit statements. Kindly excuse me to exit from this discussion. Somehow, this does not resonate with my heart.

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 04:39:21 PM
I would like to highlight to stress the point in Sri Ramana quite mentioned by you, that it be not misread -

Quote
D: How can I control the mind?

M: There is no mind to control if the Self is realised. The Self shines forth when the mind vanishes. In
the realised man the mind may be active or inactive, the Self alone exists. For, the mind, body and world
are not separate from the Self; and they cannot remain apart from the Self. Can they be other than
the Self? When aware of the Self why should one worry about these shadows? How do they affect the
Self?

The point in red is most important.

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 04:45:52 PM
Quote
Because the jnani is aware of the body, he will also be aware of the thoughts and vasanas that arise in that body. None of these vasanas has the power to cause bondage for him because he never identifies with them, but they do have the power to make the body behave in certain ways. The body of the jnani enjoys and experiences thses vasanas although the jnani himself is not affected by them. that is why its some times said that for the jnani there are bhoga vasanas but no bandha vasanas.

Vedas do not speak in the same spirit. A Jnani is free of all vasanas. Even if Vasanas do arise, whether one is affected or not is different matter, but Vasanas do arise.

It is not simply that we have a tradition of worshiping the bodies of Saints, it is because they are so pure, nothing remains in them to even affect them or they remain unaffected by anything.

I will try and post some posts from my source in coming times. We will take it from there.

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 04:49:28 PM
Udai,

Vasanas no longer remain in one who has gone beyond ones body. The question that vasanas arise but they do not affect such a person is not the lakshyartha. It is not correct. It does matter to see the context to which these were said so, which is why, not always we can take a dialogue of saints with devotees as a pramana vakya, veda is final authority.

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Subramanian.R on January 17, 2013, 04:52:23 PM
Experience of  Jnana gained without rooting out all the vasanas cannot remain  steady. Effort must be made to eradicate the vasanas
lock, stock and barrel. Otherwise rebirth after death takes place. Some say direct experience results from hearing one's Master.
Even here such an experience can remain unshaken only after all the vasanas are rooted out.  The grip of the ego can be slackened
only by not adding new vasanas to it. Large amounts of Japa will also duly slacken and cause vanishing of the grip of ego and vasanas.

          (Sri Bhagavan to a visitor)

***

A visitor: Can one realize the Truth by learning the scriptures an study of books?

Maharshi;  No. So long as predispositions remain latent in the mind, realization cannot be achieved. Sastra learning is itself
a Vasana. Realization is only in Samadhi.,

***

So long as there are vasanas contained within, they must come out and exhaust themselves. It can also be scorched once and
for all, by self inquiry.

***
Rama asked Vasishta: Brahman being Pure how can  Maya arise from Him and veil Him also?

Vasishta replies: In pure mind associated with strong dispassion, this question will not arise....Oneself sinking into the Self
the Vasanas will entirely disappear, leaving no room for such a question (i.e. Maya veiling Brahman etc.,)

****

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 04:53:37 PM
Subramanian Sir,

Thank you, excellent compilation, it is a blessing truly.

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 04:59:58 PM
Dear Nagaraj,
         :) Vedanta is not easy to understand. They have to be studied with Bhashyam of Shankra from a guru. Have you done this ?

If you have studied with Bhashyam of Shankara under a proper guru , please give me the bhasyam reference , the vedantic reference and then it would stand some discussion.

Otherwise its like speaking about E=mc^2 without understanding what it means !! I do not have anything to discuss on a specific vedantic text unless you provide Shankra Bhasyam for this reason.

Are you telling me or asking me? just look at the intent in your own post and the voice and loudness. Your expressions clearly exhibit an impatient outburst.

You seem to say merely listening to Paramarthanandaji's lectrures you have gained everything and have learnt everything under a proper Guru? how do you see others and in what light do you see everybody else? You do not know anybody, it is all in your hands if you see it as speaking as e=mc2.

You have very openly conveyed that it is only you, who have understood the true purport and have truly known what has to be known.

I do not feel inspired to correspond with you and share my thoughts with you. You may revel in your own last say, your knowledge and enlightenment

God Bless.

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 05:13:48 PM
Dear Sri Udai,

I do not like to express all these, i have been doing Veda adhyayanm from a proper Guru,  who is an Ashtaavadhaani (one capable of doing 8 things at a time) for over 8 years now and still going on. have covered various works including Gita, Atma bodha, works of Shankara, including some works of Vaishnava and Madhva. i adhere to the instructions of shastras as much as possible and carry out the anhikas without fail.

you may please find somebody if one has studied and then engage yourself in conversation with such a person. I do not wish to communicate with you. i prefer to converse with an ordinary layman or the ordinary street dog near my house that is my highest Guru, who does not know anything, for he has much more to offer than Shankara bhasyam or sometimes even Ramana or Ramakrishna or shankara acharyas or other modern swamiji or pravachakas.

I say, this is nothing, knowledge is nothing, shankara bhashya is nothing, all books are to be burnt, there is nothing you will gain in them, unless you stand stark naked before the higher power. If you are looking for an educated shastric person, I am not the person. each day as I learn, i only realise all learning is nothing! I am not the person, so you communicate with me, you may find somebody who appreciates the vedanta just as you do. I pray may you find one very soon

Prayers,

Title: Re: Destroying vasanas
Post by: Nagaraj on January 17, 2013, 05:52:27 PM
Udai,

i am not heated up, even if I am heated up, what matters? I am that awareness, for me, as awareness, remain untouched by any heat :D

I do not belong to any school of thought, I do not strictly follow any school of thought, my guru has been teaching me to be free of any school of thought. He has only been teaching me that I am nothing. So therefore truly i may not satisfy your conditions for a dialogue, i may not strictly quote shankara bhashya even though My Guru has covered shankara Bhashya for some important works. If you want to have a dialogue with somebody's education background, and not the very person itself, then my heart stops behind from venturing into any dialogue. My Guru teaches the Bhashya of Heart, he has taught me that this Bhashya is supreme to every other Bhashyas.