The Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nagaraj on October 25, 2012, 07:04:36 PM

Title: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on October 25, 2012, 07:04:36 PM
Common discussion thread. Sri Tushnim, kindly request you to continue the discussion here.

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on October 25, 2012, 07:25:38 PM
Sri Tushnim,

I think even previously in a similar conversation, i pointed that you are mixing up lashyArtha (end goal) with yatArthA (what is real [now])

There is no difference (between the mind and self) . The mind turned inwards is the Self; turned outwards, it becomes the ego and all the world. Cotton made into various clothes we call by various names. Gold made into various ornaments, we call by various names. But all the clothes are cotton and all the ornaments gold. The one is real, the many aremere names and forms.

But the mind does no exist apart from the Self, that is, it has no independent existence. The Self exists without the mind, never the mind without the Self.


myself and yourself is there as much as in a dream !

Sir Please see... what I am trying to claim is not that "I am Liberated"... thats not any intention.
there are vasanas.

question is ... when i feel bound by vasanas... who is this "I" ?
Is Awareness getting affected?

The Self gone outward is mind, the same self is projected as mind. Yes awareness is affected as the Self is not in abidance the moment there is some vAsanA generated.

when mind is calm... has awareness gained calmness ?
when mind is agitated ... has awareness become agitated ?

Nobody questions whene one is calm. when Mind is agitated, then yes, Awareness has become agitated as the awareness is no more pure, it is camouflaged with dirts of vAsanAs. There is no time separate awareness to say that the awareness is not agitated, the awareness or Self is now in mind form, filled with dirt! When agitated there is loss of Self or awareness. You may jump to and forth becoming aware of the situation, but it is not a niShtA. It is disturbance and repeated effort is made to cease from going outwards.

can we "re-educate" the mind exactly when it says "i am angry" that "I am awareness that is neither angry nor calm" ?
Thats the question sir.

"Re-educating" at that moment when mind claims "i am happy or i am full of sorrow" that "I Am awareness and have nothing to do with mind" ... thats what i am talking about.
the need for reeducation is there because the education "I am awareness" is incomplete and mere "thought" for most of us. so it needs to be taken inside and has to get deeper. Thats why a Ribhu gita is important.

Yes, any way of re-educating is good, but, it depends on the extent of strangle hold of vAsanAs, when it is too strong, mere re-educating wont suffice, as it is bound to re-appear again, re-educating slowly and slowly only is possible, untill the root of that vAsanAs is plucked out completely, when anger (or any other vAsanA) would not surface at all. That is the lakshyArtA.

if anger keeps coming, if lust keeps coming, if desire keeps coming and one keeps repeatedly re-educating oneself again and again without striving to go to the root of the vAsanAs and completely destroy it with proper vichArA, there is no use.

Just re-educating again and again served only temporary purpose. The root has to be plucked! That is the solution, as far as I have understood the teachings of Bhagavan.

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on October 25, 2012, 07:29:01 PM
If going to the roots of vAsanAs is difficult there is another indirect way, that is the path of Bhakti.
Bhakti is a way by means of which one can transcend all the vAsanAs into one's advantage. Your lust becomes your love. your desires becomes your worship, and so on!

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on October 25, 2012, 07:43:04 PM
Awareness does not keep changing : agitated, pure etc.
Awareness is ever pure!
Otherwise one cannot say chideva manasah parah... awareness beyond mind! [ribhu gita]
it becomes mind!

Awareness does not change, but when when you cover the awareness or Self with various sheeths, then it takes various forms!

Self is changeless.
Mind is all changes.
how is Self mind ?
Self does not have any change!

The Self does not change, the same gold is made into a jewelry form and we take it to be a ring or necklace and cease from forgetting the reality of substratum, that it is mere Gold! Gold only has become various jewels. In the same way, Self gone outwards is mind like the king - beggar example! He has ever remained a king, yet he had become a beggar! Gold. cotton always as been gold and cotton, yet it became different jewelry and different garments.

Vasanas cannot be plucked unless they come out. When they come out...non-identification kills them

Mere non-identification will not be enough, the repeated appearances of vAsanAs are a proof of this! One has to discern, to the extant that one ceases from getting scared from a ghost pole (the problem is, since we have over used these examples such as ghost pole illustrations, they are not really having real impact on the true import)

one has to wake from sleep in order to end the dream! and waking up does not happen only by mere knowledge that i have quoted here.

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 25, 2012, 08:15:18 PM
Dear Nagaraj and others,

Vasanas will disappear only when Self Inquiry is seriously pursued.  Vasanas are deeply imbedded in the mind.  They are like
tuber root of a tree. Only Self Inquiry will remove it lock stock and barrel.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on October 25, 2012, 08:36:20 PM
Dear Sir,

yes, vAsanAs will efface out completely, not only by serious persuasion of Self Inquiry alone, any sAdhanA pursued with utmost sincerity will result in the effacement the ego, giving into it completely and wholeheartedly!

I believe, somewhere we have to accept the yatArthA, that we want to enjoy this human life to some extant. We should not deny ourselves our living, in the name of Realisation. The haTa yogA is all about forcing oneself, the very word hatA means the use of persistence or force in order to achieve an end.

We have to sail calmly and smoothly, we should at least free ourselves from this urgency to realise. Somewhere we came across, that Enlightenment can wait, yes, let it wait! Infact wait it out completely that it runs out of patience to come to us :)

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on October 25, 2012, 08:59:21 PM
Udai,
"God bless this forum really! I wish Ramana guides it somehow! "

Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

God's grace is the ultimate help

"You may try thousands of times, but nothing can be achieved without God's grace. One
cannot see God without His grace. Is it an easy thing to receive the grace of God? One must
altogether renounce egotism; one cannot see God as long as one feels, 'I am the doer.'
Suppose, in a family, a man has taken charge of the store-room; then if someone asks the
master, 'Sir, will you yourself kindly give me something from the store-room?', the master
says to him: 'There is already someone in the store-room. What can I do there?'

So,udai as long as there is another 'teacher' here, how do you expect God or Ramana will guide this 'Forum' :)
When we are truly silent God speaks,and if we speak God is silent.This is simple Truth.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on October 25, 2012, 09:12:56 PM
Udai,
you are saying:
"Sraddha is not Faith. Thats pathetic translation. It is a attitude of beginners mind in zen. that aids the student explore and find out for himself. that attitude which made ramakrishna go to guru to find about god and sincerely see whether what the guru says is true ... that attitude is bhakti".

You certainly are entitled to your ideas,but when it comes to Sri Ramakrishna,better to refer to what he says.Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

"How can a devotee attain such love? First, the company of holy men. That awakens
śraddhā, faith in God.
Then comes nishtha, single-minded devotion to the Ideal. In that
stage the devotee does not like to hear anything but talk about God.
He performs only those
acts that please God. After nishtha comes bhakti, devotion to God; then comes bhava. Next
mahabhava, then prema, and last of all the attainment of God Himself
."

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on October 25, 2012, 10:36:27 PM
Udai/Friends,

Quote
"Sraddha is not Faith. Thats pathetic translation. It is a attitude of beginners mind in zen. that aids the student explore and find out for himself"

Sraddha it is to adhere to the words or teaching or advice or Routine or prescription 100% .This means fidelity,faithfulness,trust,Diligence.If one has taken the medicine prescribed by a doctor at the appointed time and according to the Dosage recommended,the patient has sraddha in the Doctor's prescription.No exploration is called for.

The srAddha ceremony is so called on account of the one who performs the ceremony adhere to all the Prescribed Karma anushtanas as laid down in the scriptures and absolutely observing all the Directions.There is no exploration ,in fact such explorations and inquisitiveness will smother Sraddha.Sraddha means unquestioning adherence and implies that the Prescriptions of the Sastras having been recommended by wise ones will definitely bring about the intended result.This is nothing but Faith.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on October 26, 2012, 09:46:09 AM
udai,
You seem to be banking your arguement on Terrorists!Do you think that is Sraddha?Every terrorist has an agenda,to take revenge,to take sides,to be a mercenary who is prepared to sacrifice his life in return for some remuneration for his family,etc.Never ever is it that his effort is to Realize God or to act in accordance with the dictates of the wise ones.
It is for that 'Moment' and nothing at all for eternity.If allowed sometime,the so called 'Sraddha'(Heat)will cool off.It needs external stimulation to keep it going.
Sraddha is intrinsic,and  implies Steadiness,and it is prepared to wait for Eternity and willing to last forever until the Thing that it does NOT SEE  gets realized.
Anyone with a rudimentary intelligence can see this aspect that is unmistakeable,unless one is trying to prove it wrong willy nilly! :)

One who has Sraddha is patient;One who is a fanatic is impatient.There is a world of a difference between the two.
One who has Sraddha is concerned with the wellbeing of others;one who is a fanatic is only motivated to further his clan.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on October 26, 2012, 12:06:59 PM
udai,
It is very elementary.A Man is as his faith is.If he places his faith in temporal,he will achieve temporal objectives.If he places his faith in Eternal verities,he will achieve that.The Power of Sraddha lies in its application.It does not mean that one sets aside his power of Discrimination,Dispassion,etc,all of which have their role to play as well.
The Term Sraddha or Faith as it is called, is used in spiritual Realm for what it is,unquestioning adherence to what is said by The Guru and What is said in The Sastras as well;if what the Guru says is not in accordance with the Sastra,it cannot be relied upon.If it cannot be relied upon,there is no way one can have Faith in such a recommendation.
Faith never contradicts Reason but is beyond it,but it is prior to only actual Realization;It brings about Realization.
It is like the power of attention;If it is placed in Business,one achieves success in Business.If it is placed in Studies,one achieves success in Studies.If it is on inner verities,one grows into that.
So ,coming back to' faith' of the Terrorist,it is quite clear that it is not based on verification of a Realization as an outcome.If the outcome cannot be verified,it is Belief only;Belief that he will go to Heaven after Death.This is very very elementary to understand.
Sraddha on the other hand is where the Outcome is open for verification as an outcome while Living.The Very Sraddha is based on this eventual verification(This is different than a questioning exploration!)and not just that,it precipitates that outcome as well!
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on October 26, 2012, 12:11:49 PM
'Shraddha' has no real equivalent in English, at best it can be understood as, faith with love and reverence. Such faith or trust is generated out of conviction, which may not be the result of any rational belief or intellectual wisdom, but a spiritual inspiration.  This aspect can be abundantly found in the life story of Shirdi Sai Baba -

Baba sowed the seeds of spiritual inspiration in the hearts of people who knew of him.  This Divine inspiration was so instant and profound that they automatically took refuge in Him.

Baba reiterated that steadfast love in God as the gateway to eternity.  He used the instance of mother tortoise to illustrate this point.  The mother - tortoise may be on the other side of the river, whereas her children are on the far side.  She does not transfer food and water to her children by way of her loving glances.  Yet, her loving looks are enough to protect the children. Similarly, people who lovingly look at God get His reciprocity.  God's looks offer peace, protection and prosperity for His children. Baba's teaching, both direct and indirect explicate the significance of 'Shraddha'.  Baba reiterates the spiritual guidance of Shri Krishna to Arjun - "Who-so ever offer to Me with love or devotion, a leaf, a flower, a fruit or water, that offering of pure love is readily accepted by Me".

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on October 26, 2012, 12:31:20 PM
here is what srI shankarA has to say:

शास्त्रस्य गुरुवाक्यस्य सत्यबुद्ध्यवधारणम् ।
सा श्रद्धा कथिता सद्भिर्यया वस्तूपलभ्यते ॥२५॥


shAstrasya guruvAkyasya satyabuddhyA avadhAraNA |
sA shraddhA kathitA sadbhiH yayA vastu upalabhyate || 25
 
The firm conviction that what the scriptures and the guru say is true, is called `shraddha' by the wise. By this (shraddha) the reality is attained.

The faithful holding on strong to the words of the Guru with the right humility and reverence is held as shradDhA by which the Truth is grasped.

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on October 26, 2012, 12:34:28 PM
Udai,
Quote
"One places faith in guru , not on objects!
So the guy has faith in his guru.
someone else has faith in his own guru."

One places Faith to achieve something.Every Faith has an objective.If there is no objective,there need be no Faith.One places Faith in The Guru to achieve that Objective!

Coming to sraddha,one is not questioning it by weighing pros and cons all along the way,but unquestioningly adhering to the teaching by actualizing it in Practice,and this in itself precipitates the Outcome.This outcome then is open for verification.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on October 26, 2012, 12:39:39 PM
Sri Tushnim,

Friend, your arguments about openness and your views on shradDhA, seem more like an anguish of nobody listening to what you have to say!

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on October 26, 2012, 12:55:31 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

Redeeming power of faith

A DEVOTEE: "Sir, is there no help, then, for such a worldly person?"

MASTER: "Certainly there is. From time to time he should live in the company of holy
men, and from time to time go into solitude to meditate on God. Furthermore, he should
practise discrimination and pray to God, 'Give me faith and devotion.' Once a person has
faith he has achieved everything. There is nothing greater than faith.

(To Kedar) "You must have heard about the tremendous power of faith. It is said in the
purana that Rama, who was God Himself - the embodiment of Absolute Brahman - had to
build a bridge to cross the sea to Ceylon. But Hanuman, trusting in Rama's name, cleared
the sea in one jump and reached the other side. He had no need of a bridge. (All laugh)
"Once a man was about to cross the sea. Bibhishana wrote Rama's name on a leaf, tied it in
a corner of the man's wearing-cloth, and said to him: 'Don't be afraid. Have faith and walk
on the water. But look here - the moment you lose faith you will be drowned.' The man was
walking easily on the water. Suddenly he had an intense desire to see what was tied in his
cloth. He opened it and found only a leaf with the name of Rama written on it. 'What is
this?' he thought. 'Just the name of Rama!' As soon as doubt entered his mind he sank under
the water.

"If a man has faith in God, then even if he has committed the most heinous sins - such as
killing a cow, a brahmin, or a woman - he will certainly be saved through his faith. Let him
only say to God, 'O Lord, I Will not repeat such an action', and he need not be afraid of
anything."

Namaskar
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: ramana_maharshi on October 26, 2012, 12:59:02 PM
Quote
One who has Sraddha is patient;One who is a fanatic is impatient.There is a world of a difference between the two.
One who has Sraddha is concerned with the wellbeing of others;one who is a fanatic is only motivated to further his clan.

ravi garu,

based on your above quotes you mean lord krishna is impatient because he encouraged war between pandavas and kauravas?

you mean all soldiers are all impatient as they are engaging their duty to save their country?

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on October 26, 2012, 01:04:51 PM
Prashant,
No.They are obligated to be doing what they did.This is not faith.
Best Regards...Ravi
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 26, 2012, 01:39:36 PM
Dear Ravi,

Yes. There is nothing greater than sraddha and faith in matters spiritual or material.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on October 26, 2012, 10:01:15 PM
 Dear Sri Beloved_Abstract,

:D occasionally, even you turn up to present your story updates :D and am sure, it will continue for some more time, still!

there is no escape, for sharing stories (karmas) until the mind is completely dissolved! :)

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on October 29, 2012, 03:16:08 PM
Thanks for such beautiful picture too, Sri Jewel! one of the most beautiful pictures of the Master. Thank you. This is special for me, because, I grasp more through picture than words. This picture conveys a lot!

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-i6YYJhfEMUc/UCCJwy0BOwI/AAAAAAAAHYo/YVwbSDXp9Xw/s1600/sri_ramakrishna.jpg)
         



“Only two kinds of people can attain self-knowledge:
those who are not encumbered at all with learning,
that is to say, whose minds are not over-crowded
with thoughts borrowed from others; and those who,
after studying all the scriptures and sciences,
have come to realise that they know nothing.”

Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on October 29, 2012, 04:10:54 PM
Nagaraj,
There is this interesting story on this photograph of the Master;I am copying it from what I posted in David's Blog:

The story behind the commonly seen photograph of Sri Ramakrishna in a seated pose goes like this:
This picture was taken in front of the RadhAkAnta temple at Dakshineswar in 1884, when Sri Ramakrishna was 48 years old. According to Swami Nirvanananda, "Bhavanath Chatterjee, the Master’s devotee from Baranagore, wanted to take a photograph of the Master. One day he requested him very strongly to give his consent, and on the afternoon of the next day brought a photographer along with him from Baranagore. He could not make the Master agree. The Master just went away, to the RadhAkAnta [Krishna] temple.
 
"In the meantime Narendra arrived on the scene and heard everything; he said, ‘Wait a bit. I shall put everything straight.’ Saying this, he went to the veranda to the west of the Radhakanta temple where Sri Ramakrishna was sitting and started a religious conversation with him. The Master went into samadhi. Narendra went and called the others and ordered them to get ready quickly to take the picture.
 
"In the state of samadhi the Master’s body was bent on one side and therefore the cameraman went to make him sit erect by softly adjusting his chin. But as soon as he touched his chin the whole body of the Master came up like a piece of paper - so light it was!
 
"Swamiji then told him, ‘Oh, what are you doing? Be quick. Get the camera ready.’ The cameraman took the exposure as hurriedly as possible. The Master was completely unaware of this incident.
Swami Vishuddhananda stated that when Sri Ramakrishna saw the photo he went into ecstasy and touched the photo to his head several times, saying: "The photo is nicely taken. This mood is very high - fully merged in Him. Here the Lord is fully depicted in his own nature."
 
The following is a quotation from Sri Sarada Devi: The Holy Mother, (p. 416) concerning one of the prints of this photograph:
 
"Disciple: Mother, that photograph of Sri Ramakrishna which you have with you is a very good one. One feels it when one sees the picture. Well, is that a good likeness of the Master?
 
"Mother: Yes, that picture is very, very good. It originally belonged to a brahmin cook. Several prints were made of his first photograph. The brahmin took one of them. The picture was at first very dark, just like the image of Kali. Therefore it was given to the Brahmin. When he left Dakshineswar for some place - I do not remember where - he gave it to me. I kept the photograph with the pictures of other gods and goddesses and worshipped it. At one time I lived on the ground floor of the nahabat. One day the Master came there, and at the sight of the picture he said, ‘Hello, what is all this?’ Lakshmi and I had been cooking under the staircase. Then I saw the Master take in his hand the bel leaves and flowers kept there for worship, and offer them to the photograph. This is the same picture. That brahmin never returned, so the picture remained with me."
 
This picture which Sri Ramakrishna worshipped is now on the shrine at the Udbodhan Office in Calcutta, where it is worshipped daily."


Namaskar
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Jewell on October 29, 2012, 05:09:19 PM
Dear Sri Nagaraj,

Yes,the pictures can convey much indeed. Even more than words. And,there is symply beauty to watch them.  :)

With love and prayers,

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Jewell on October 29, 2012, 05:15:13 PM
Nagaraj,
There is this interesting story on this photograph of the Master;I am copying it from what I posted in David's Blog:

The story behind the commonly seen photograph of Sri Ramakrishna in a seated pose goes like this:
This picture was taken in front of the RadhAkAnta temple at Dakshineswar in 1884, when Sri Ramakrishna was 48 years old. According to Swami Nirvanananda, "Bhavanath Chatterjee, the Master’s devotee from Baranagore, wanted to take a photograph of the Master. One day he requested him very strongly to give his consent, and on the afternoon of the next day brought a photographer along with him from Baranagore. He could not make the Master agree. The Master just went away, to the RadhAkAnta [Krishna] temple.
 
"In the meantime Narendra arrived on the scene and heard everything; he said, ‘Wait a bit. I shall put everything straight.’ Saying this, he went to the veranda to the west of the Radhakanta temple where Sri Ramakrishna was sitting and started a religious conversation with him. The Master went into samadhi. Narendra went and called the others and ordered them to get ready quickly to take the picture.
 
"In the state of samadhi the Master’s body was bent on one side and therefore the cameraman went to make him sit erect by softly adjusting his chin. But as soon as he touched his chin the whole body of the Master came up like a piece of paper - so light it was!
 
"Swamiji then told him, ‘Oh, what are you doing? Be quick. Get the camera ready.’ The cameraman took the exposure as hurriedly as possible. The Master was completely unaware of this incident.
Swami Vishuddhananda stated that when Sri Ramakrishna saw the photo he went into ecstasy and touched the photo to his head several times, saying: "The photo is nicely taken. This mood is very high - fully merged in Him. Here the Lord is fully depicted in his own nature."
 
The following is a quotation from Sri Sarada Devi: The Holy Mother, (p. 416) concerning one of the prints of this photograph:
 
"Disciple: Mother, that photograph of Sri Ramakrishna which you have with you is a very good one. One feels it when one sees the picture. Well, is that a good likeness of the Master?
 
"Mother: Yes, that picture is very, very good. It originally belonged to a brahmin cook. Several prints were made of his first photograph. The brahmin took one of them. The picture was at first very dark, just like the image of Kali. Therefore it was given to the Brahmin. When he left Dakshineswar for some place - I do not remember where - he gave it to me. I kept the photograph with the pictures of other gods and goddesses and worshipped it. At one time I lived on the ground floor of the nahabat. One day the Master came there, and at the sight of the picture he said, ‘Hello, what is all this?’ Lakshmi and I had been cooking under the staircase. Then I saw the Master take in his hand the bel leaves and flowers kept there for worship, and offer them to the photograph. This is the same picture. That brahmin never returned, so the picture remained with me."
 
This picture which Sri Ramakrishna worshipped is now on the shrine at the Udbodhan Office in Calcutta, where it is worshipped daily."


Namaskar

Dear Sri Ravi,

So interesting and beautiful story! I read it for the first time now,and it is a truly enjoyment to read about such " ordinary Extrodinary" happenings around Master.
Thank You Very much!

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on October 29, 2012, 05:45:55 PM
Sri Ravi,

Indeed gratitude to that Lord, that, through you, who are here, to be able to present these wonderful facts behind the picture, or where else could we get to know such wonderful details? It was truly exhilarating to all that transpired before being successfully able to take a picture of the Lord. Swami Vivekananda and other disciples seem so much like little children praying all their little pranks with their grandfather, spreads so much warmth in just reading the same. Swami Vivekananda reminds me of shAmA, from Shirdi Sai Sat Charitra, it was Shama, to whom all devotees came and addressed their wishes as only he could somehow get things done from Baba, Shama was very dear to Baba. When the devotees could not directly approach Baba or make him accede to somethings. Like How we approach Shiva through Nandi. what a joy, Thank you!

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Jewell on October 30, 2012, 10:06:32 PM
Dear Sri Nagaraj,

I am happy to see that You have opened thread on Sri Ramakrishna teachings. I was just last night reading a Traning a disciple article,and i was so moved and touched with it! I was completly lost reading whill reading it!

We are much familiar with Sri Ramakrisha because of Sri Ravi,many thanks to Him,and i cant wait to see what will Master teach us trough You!  :)

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on October 31, 2012, 09:15:45 AM
Nagaraj/Hari/Jewell,
I am delighted to see this thread on sri Ramakrishna's teachings.I am eager to read the teachings through you.Thanks very much.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on October 31, 2012, 09:40:18 PM
Nagaraj,
Yes,I also came across this website which has very good information on mahAkavi.Thanks very much for the wonderful articles on MahAkavi that you have posted.The Kannan ,my mother is superb,as also the translation of it.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 01, 2012, 06:12:21 PM
udai,
" When Vivekananda hid a gold coin under Sri Ramakrishna bed, Sri Ramakrishna shouted "Fire! Fire!" and jumped up! "

Where did you get this information?Please do not share fanciful ideas here.I am sorry but I find your ideas far fetched and totally off mark.
You are free to carry such ideas but to project here as if they are authentic is misleading to say the least.I will post in The Rough-note book on these aspects.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 01, 2012, 06:33:13 PM
udai,
Please check what is stated in that quote and what you have posted earlier -" In order to instruct Vivekananda the attitude one should have towards Gold he would do that! Another time he would simply throw it off as a  stone! "

Do you see how farfetched your ideas are?Anyway,I will post the passages from The Gospel as to what Sri Ramakrishna himself said.

Namaskar.

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 01, 2012, 06:44:03 PM
Dear Ravi,

That is why I refrain from commenting on Sri Ramakrishna Vivekananda and Sarada Devi subjects. I have just started
reading them. I bought some books like Gospel, Mother Saradadevi, Life of Swmi Vivekananda etc., One cannot post
anything without reading the material thoroughly.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 01, 2012, 07:12:30 PM
Subramanian,
Yes,one has to read and absorb thoroughly as you have rightly said.I warmly recommend rA ganapathy's arivukkanaley arutpunaley(Life of Sri Ramakrishna and Swami Vivekananda),published by R K Mutt chennai.For Holy mother's life,I would again recommend rA Ganapathy's 'amma'.They are the Best and rA Ganapathy truly  presents a very vivid and intense account ;the narration is gripping and we cannot keep the book down.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 01, 2012, 07:19:51 PM
Friends,
I thought it fit to post the excerpts from the Gospel of sri Ramakrishna regarding how the Master's body underwent a change and could not touch metal without feeling an intense sting of pain.It is not just 'Gold' but metal that stung him!

The First time Sri Ramakrishna narrates it is when he had gone to the Star Theatre:
"Sri Ramakrishna took some refreshments and handed some to Narendra.
JATIN DEVA (to the Master): "You always say: 'Narendra, eat this! Eat that!' Are the rest
of us fools? Are we like straw washed ashore by the flood-tide?"
Sri Ramakrishna loved Jatin dearly. Jatin visited the Master now and then at Dakshineswar
and occasionally spent the night there. He belonged to an aristocratic family of Sobhabazar.
The Master said laughingly to Narendra, "He is talking about you."
Sri Ramakrishna laughed and showed his affection to Jatin by touching his chin. He said to
Jatin, "Come to Dakshineswar; I'll give you plenty to eat."
The Master went into the auditorium to see a farce. He sat in a box. He laughed at the
conversation of the maidservant. After a while he became absent-minded and whispered a
few words to M.
MASTER (to M.): "Well, is what Girish Ghosh says true?"
Girish had lately been speaking of Sri Ramakrishna as an Incarnation of God.
M: "Yes, sir, it must be true. Otherwise why should it appeal to our minds?"
MASTER: "You see, a change is coming over me. The old mood has changed. I am not
able to touch any metal now."

M. listened to these words in wonder.
MASTER: "There is a very deep meaning in this new mood." Was the Master hinting that a
God-man cannot bear any association with worldly treasure
?
MASTER (to M.): "Well, do you notice any change in me?"
M: "In what respect, sir?"
MASTER: "In my activities."
M: "Your activities are increasing as more people come to know about you."
MASTER: "Do you see? What I said before is now coming true."

continued...
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 01, 2012, 07:24:48 PM
Sri Ramakrishna not able to touch metal continued...

It was dusk. Preparations were going on in the temples for the evening worship. The lamp
was lighted in the Master's room and incense was burnt. Seated on the small couch, Sri
Ramakrishna saluted the Divine Mother and chanted Her name in a tender voice. There was
nobody in the room except M, who was sitting on the floor.

Sri Ramakrishna rose from the couch. M also stood up. The Master asked him to shut the
west and north doors of the room. M obeyed and stood by Sri Ramakrishna on the porch.
The Master said that he wanted to go to the Kali temple. Leaning on M.'s arm, he came
down to the terrace of the temple. He asked M. to call Baburam and sat down.

After visiting the Divine Mother, the Master returned to his room across the court,
chanting, "O Mother! Mother! Rajarajesvari!"

Sri Ramakrishna entered his room and sat on the small couch. He had been passing through
an extraordinary state of mind: he could not touch any metal. He had said a few days
before, "It seems that the Divine Mother has been removing from my mind all ideas of
possession." He had been eating from plantain-leaves and drinking water from an earthen
tumbler. He could not touch a metal jar; so he had asked the devotees to get a few earthen
jars for him. If he touched metal plates or pots, his hand ached as if stung by a horned fish
.

Prasanna had brought a few earthen pots, but they were very small. The Master said with a
smile:" These pots are too small. But he is a nice boy".

continued....
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 01, 2012, 07:29:39 PM
Sri Ramakrishna not able to touch metal continued...

Master's exalted spiritual state

Sri Ramakrishna said to M.: "Can you tell me why I have been feeling like this the past few
days? It is impossible for me to touch any metal. When I touched a metal cup I felt as if I
had been stung by a horned fish. There was an excruciating pain all over my arm. But I
must use a brass water-jar, and so I tried to carry it after covering it with my towel. But the
moment I touched the jar I felt the same acute pain in my arm. It was an unbearable pain!
At last I prayed to the Divine Mother: 'O Mother, I shall never do it again. Please forgive
me this time.
'

continued....
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 01, 2012, 07:44:41 PM
Sri Ramakrishna and Baburam(Swami Premananda):

It was dusk. The Master was sitting on the semicircular porch west of his room. Baburam
and M. sat near him. He was in a mood of partial ecstasy.
Rakhal was not then living with Sri Ramakrishna, and therefore the Master was having
difficulties about his personal service. Several devotees lived with him, but he could not
bear the touch of everyone during his spiritual moods. He hinted to Baburam: "Do stay with
me. It will be very nice. In this mood I cannot allow others to touch me."


............
MASTER: "Yesterday I came to know Baburam's inner nature. That is why I have been
trying so hard to persuade him to live with me. The mother bird hatches the egg in proper
time. Boys like Baburam are pure in heart. They have not yet fallen into the clutches of
'woman and gold'. Isn't that so?"
M: "It is true, sir. They are still stainless."
MASTER: "They are like a new pot. Milk kept in it will not turn sour."
M: "Yes, sir."
MASTER: "I need Baburam here. I pass through certain spiritual states when I need
someone like him
. He says he must not, all at once, live with me permanently, for it will
create difficulties. His relatives will make trouble. I am asking him to come here Saturdays
and Sundays."

It is clear that Sri Ramakrishna's physical body was quite sensitive to touch.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Jewell on November 01, 2012, 10:43:36 PM
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSP8LlKxZBvfwWgSX16TF0FSG5DCJ8L9vZdcEl96owhpL3leeCBQWynhGsSJw)

How cute!!! How can anyone scold something so sweet and innocent.
Dear Sri Nagaraj,

Thank You Very much for this picture! I simply love it.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Hari on November 01, 2012, 11:18:08 PM
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSP8LlKxZBvfwWgSX16TF0FSG5DCJ8L9vZdcEl96owhpL3leeCBQWynhGsSJw)

How cute!!! How can anyone scold something so sweet and innocent.
Dear Sri Nagaraj,

Thank You Very much for this picture! I simply love it.


(http://forum.icefilms.info/images/smilies/skype-sun.png) (http://forum.icefilms.info/images/smilies/skype-sun.png) (http://forum.icefilms.info/images/smilies/skype-sun.png)

True, dear Jewell! I love little Krishna representation because this remembers me the bhakta attitude like mother/father and child.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on November 01, 2012, 11:20:16 PM
Sri Jewel, you posted yet again this naughty boy Krishna, it felt like urge from within asking me to post one more of his leela now itself!

(http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt124/ginoL/bunch-of-peacock-feathers.gif)

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on November 01, 2012, 11:33:56 PM
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSP8LlKxZBvfwWgSX16TF0FSG5DCJ8L9vZdcEl96owhpL3leeCBQWynhGsSJw)

It is difficult to be the mother of this boy...  so innocent was yashOdA mA, this boy here, is the creater of His mother as well, what to do with this boy, heart does not reconcile with his pranks, his innocence, pranks, his lies, everything about him is so sweet. What could yashOdA mA could have done?

(http://www.artoflegendindia.com/images/detailed/pbaaaa195_yashoda_and_krishna.jpg)

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Jewell on November 01, 2012, 11:39:26 PM
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSP8LlKxZBvfwWgSX16TF0FSG5DCJ8L9vZdcEl96owhpL3leeCBQWynhGsSJw)

How cute!!! How can anyone scold something so sweet and innocent.
Dear Sri Nagaraj,

Thank You Very much for this picture! I simply love it.



(http://forum.icefilms.info/images/smilies/skype-sun.png) (http://forum.icefilms.info/images/smilies/skype-sun.png) (http://forum.icefilms.info/images/smilies/skype-sun.png)

True, dear Jewell! I love little Krishna representation because this remembers me the bhakta attitude like mother/father and child.

Dear Hari,

Yes,i love it too. And,also, it is kind of symbolic for me,child image and its innosence.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Jewell on November 01, 2012, 11:41:08 PM
Sri Jewel, you posted yet again this naughty boy Krishna, it felt like urge from within asking me to post one more of his leela now itself!

(http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt124/ginoL/bunch-of-peacock-feathers.gif)

It is Beautiful!!! And it glows too!  :)

Greatest Leela for sure!
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Hari on November 01, 2012, 11:42:18 PM
Quote
It is difficult to be the mother of this boy...  so innocent was yashOdA mA, this boy here, is the creater of His mother as well, what to do with this boy, heart does not reconcile with his pranks, his innocence, pranks, his lies, everything about him is so sweet. What could yashOdA mA could have done?

To just love Him and look for Him.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Jewell on November 01, 2012, 11:55:02 PM
Quote
It is difficult to be the mother of this boy...  so innocent was yashOdA mA, this boy here, is the creater of His mother as well, what to do with this boy, heart does not reconcile with his pranks, his innocence, pranks, his lies, everything about him is so sweet. What could yashOdA mA could have done?

Dear Sri Nagaraj,

It is difficult to be the mother of any Great Soul,i think. But,Her innocense would save Her,it is always like that. What could She do but to love Him only,and with it,to love all His qualities,noty and good. I am sure She was glad to 'pay the price'. How could someone not to love Him,when He is embodyment of love and sweetness,of such beauty. I find Him soooo cute with all those jars and stealing  :),with those pranks,and in the same time such innocence.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qPOdhOhvQcs/TH_DQoq7hfI/AAAAAAAAAlE/nIQutvIpNec/s1600/krishna-wallpaper9-b.jpg)(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_qPOdhOhvQcs/TH_DcC2S9KI/AAAAAAAAAlM/tPsAB6kCJsw/s1600/krishna_3.jpg)
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 02, 2012, 07:07:37 AM
Friends,
Wonderful pictures!Here is an excerpt from the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"If you asked me which form of God you should meditate
upon, I should say: Fix your attention on that form which appeals to you most; but know
for certain that all forms are the forms of one God alone".

Balaram Bose was a householder disciple of Sri Ramakrishna.His daughter said to Sri Ramakrishna that she could not love God,and nothing appealed to her.Sri Ramakrishna asked her-'What is it that you love most'?She Replied-'I love my 2 year old nephew the Most'.
'Alright' said Sri Ramakrishna,'When you feed him,have the attitude that you are feeding Lord Sri Krishna;When you bathe him,feel that you are bathing Krishna;Adore him as Lord Sri Krishna'.She readily took to this advice and was blessed by the Vision of Lord Sri Krishna.

How does this work?Love is innate in us and it is smothered by attachment and infatuation-Love is mixed with the Pleasure that it gives us,It is tinged with our love for our petty self.If we can somehow filter this,and fan the Flame of Love so that the smoke goes off,this is the path of Bhakti.Love offers itself.

Sri Ramakrishna had this unique knack of putting on track anyone with whatever disabilities;His advice converted their seeming  weakness into strengths and assets for Sadhana.This is the Characteristic Stamp of a Great Teacher;He will lead everyone according to his predeliction,position in Life ,capacity and capability.

Namaskar.


Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 02, 2012, 11:10:24 AM
udai,
Sri Ramakrishna spoke and addressed his teachings to people from all walks of life.This point is to be noted.Interpreting his teachings is not the point.Stating what happened alone is possible.Please do not think that you alone understand and correctly interpret his teachings-That your watch alone is Right!It is your watch and may show time for you to live by.That need not be a reference for others.
Not stating Facts as they happened is a form of falsehood;one that a seeker should be conscious of and eliminate.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 02, 2012, 11:33:23 AM
udai,
If it is from memory,one has to state that it may not be accurate.Or else,as you said that the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna is available online,does it take time to refer and post?
What Sri Ramakrishna has said is all that we can be sure about,and our interpretations are just our fanciful thoughts;It is simply because we imagine that someone like sri Ramakrishna cannot be 'Troubled'.

This is what sri Ramakrishna has said:
""Not all, by any means, can recognize an Incarnation of God. Assuming a human body, the
Incarnation falls victim to disease, grief, hunger, thirst, and all such things, like ordinary
mortals. Rama wept for Sita. 'Brahman weeps, entrapped in the snare of the five elements."

The JnAni also experiences pain,sorrow etc ,only he does not succumb to it.He comes out of it the very next moment.If this is not so,the very advent of such avataras is useless,as their primary purpose is to show ordinary humans that they can also elevate themselves likewise.

If the Body's hunger is admissible for a jnAni,why baulk at mind's sorrow as equally admissible,as long as none of these is binding on him in any way!Is it not our fanciful thinking that the jnAni is living in some ivory tower existence?

Namaskar

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 02, 2012, 11:52:29 AM
udai,
"People understand as per their abilities"

People understand as they like to. :)

We unconsciously justify ourselves.If it is a matter of understanding,we will not be contesting this topic to have the last word on it. :)

I just quote sri Ramakrishna and do not seek to interpret him;I recall your asking me to do so earlier.It is for the reader/seeker to understand it,more than understand it ,assimilate it.To assimilate it is to live it.The very teaching of Sri Ramakrishna is to let this assimilation take place in a spontaneous and natural way,as opposed to all the usual class room type of Studied,over analysed way that only paralyses.Leave it to Sri Ramakrishna;His teachings have an inherent power to illuminate and does not need the support of our 'fire-fly' illumination to get it across to others.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 02, 2012, 01:24:33 PM
Udai,
Yes,such things may happen in real life too. :)

"That it has only to be quoted is an interpretation!"

I do not see it that way.In fact M has avoided this pitfall of interpretation in The Gospel Of Sri Ramakrishna.He just recorded it as he saw and heard it.This is what Swami Vivekananda wote to 'M':

The two pamphlets in English entitled the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna appeared in October and November 1897. They drew the spontaneous acclamation of Swami Vivekananda, who wrote on 24th November of that year from Dehra Dun to M.:"Many many thanks for your second leaflet. It is indeed wonderful. The move is quite original, and never was the life of a Great Teacher brought before the public untarnished by the writer's mind, as you are doing. The language also is beyond all praise, — so fresh, so pointed, and withal so plain and easy. I cannot express in adequate terms how I have enjoyed them. I am really in a transport when I read them. Strange, isn't it? Our Teacher and Lord was so original, and each one of us will have to be original or nothing. I now understand why none of us attempted His life before. It has been reserved for you, this great work. He is with you evidently." (Vedanta Kesari Vol. XIX P. 141. Also given in the first edition of the Gospel published from Ramakrishna Math, Madras in 1911.)

 And Swamiji added a post script to the letter: "Socratic dialogues are Plato all over — you are entirely hidden. Moreover, the dramatic part is infinitely beautiful. Everybody likes it — here or in the West."

M knew that Sri Ramakrishna's teachings have an inherent simplicity and power to reach the Readers and never sought to interpose himself.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 02, 2012, 01:27:22 PM
Udai/Friends,
There is this story attributed to Einstein:

Einstein and his blindfriend. This story shows how complex Einstein could be. Not long after his arrival in Princeton he was invited, by the wife of one of the professors of mathematics at Princeton, to be guest of honor at a tea.-Reluctantly, Einstein consented. After the tea had progressed for a time, the excited hostess, thrilled to have such an eminent guest of honor, fluttered out into the center of activity and with raised arms silenced the group. Bubbling out some words expressing her thrill and pleasure, she turned to Einstein and said: "I wonder, Dr. Einstein, if you would be so kind as to explain to my guests in a few words, just what is relativity theory ? "

Without any hesitation Einstein rose to his feet and told a story. He said he was reminded of a walk he one day had with his blind friend. The day was hot and he turned to the blind friend and said, "I wish I had a glass of milk."

"Glass," replied the blind friend, "I know what that is. But what do you mean by milk?"

"Why, milk is a white fluid," explained Einstein.

"Now fluid, I know what that is," said the blind man. "but what is white ? "

" Oh, white is the color of a swan's feathers."

" Feathers, now I know what they are, but what is a swan ? "

"A swan is a bird with a crooked neck."

" Neck, I know what that is, but what do you mean by crooked ? "

At this point Einstein said he lost his patience. He seized his blind friend's arm and pulled it straight. "There, now your arm is straight," he said. Then he bent the blind friend's arm at the elbow. "Now it is crooked."

"Ah," said the blind friend. "Now I know what milk is."

And Einstein, at the tea, sat down.

Our interpretations are quite like this. :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 02, 2012, 02:09:06 PM
Udai,
Sri Ramakrishna's teachings need no explanation;If the needed it,he would have done so;It is just that we are fond of spinning yarn around simple things and would like to call that as our vision. :)
Vivekananda taught the Upanishads;he never tried to explain Sri Ramakrishna's words.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 02, 2012, 04:24:01 PM
Udai,
I am not impressed. :)
You seem to be acknowledging a minor slip and covering up the major ones -you also said that Ramakrishna did that to teach Vivekananda,etc.Was Naren in need of learning that lesson?
Anyway,I will leave it at that.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 02, 2012, 04:45:47 PM
udai,
"But I am inspired by Sri Ramakrishna  !   
how would you explain that event sir?"

May be that is what you think. :)

I hope you know that Naren was not impressed for almost the major part of the time he spent with Sri Ramakrishna;he even thought Sri Ramakrishna was unbalanced;yet he was drawn to him by his genuine Love.
We do not love our Mother because she is the wisest,or She Is Learned or she is the Most beautiful.She may be a unlettered ,old woman;there need be nothing impressive about her.We may yet be inspired by her Love and Grateful for that.

It is always the mind that gets impressed and if inspiration depends on that,it most likely is a Glorified self adulation only. :)

In your case,it is for you to see.(Vision?) :) 

Namaskar.       
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 02, 2012, 04:48:53 PM
Dear Ravi,

If I am correct, Sri Vikekananda wanted to choose some other guru. Somehow He did not succeed and Sri Ramakrishna
remained His guru through his life.


Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: ramana_maharshi on November 02, 2012, 04:49:10 PM
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_Swamy_Vivekananda_a_smoker  (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_Swamy_Vivekananda_a_smoker)

"i saw his smoking pipe at the ramakrishna museum in belurmath, kolkata. He mentioned about the criticism he faced for his habit of smoking in his book "swami vivekananda on himself".

 http://www.vivekananda.net/LettersToVivekananda.html
(see last letter - this is not someone's opinion - it's a report of what they saw or know)

 http://www.vivekananda.net/ReminiscenesOnSwami/AliceHansbrough.html

"'Was he a heavy smoker?'
 'No. He would smoke after breakfast, lunch, and dinner, but never to excess"

Wondering what made him smoke and drink wine???
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 02, 2012, 04:52:45 PM
Dear prasanth,

These are not all important. Even Sri Bhagavan chewed Ganja, chewed pan, had snuff for some time.
These do not affect their state of Self Realization.
Nisargadatta used to smoke beedis.


Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 02, 2012, 04:54:01 PM
Subramanian,
No,that is not at all true.I will post later on this.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 02, 2012, 04:56:18 PM
Prashant,
Wonder why you are asking the question.Sri Ramakrishna also used to smoke.They were never addicts.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: ramana_maharshi on November 02, 2012, 05:50:16 PM
Oh yes i know ravi garu sri ramakrishna even used to eat fish which is bengali tradition.

swami nityananda once had intimate relationship with one disciple but he was never sex addict!

so shall we spare him as well subramanian garu?

In 2012, Swami Nithyananda was named by Watkins' Mind Body Spirit magazine as one of the 100 Most Spiritually Influential Living People in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Nithyananda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Nithyananda)

Surely his disciples will say his intimate relationship with one disciple does not effect his self-realisation!

sometimes i feel is it better to seek swmai/guru who dont have much publicity and fan-following  :)

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: ramana_maharshi on November 02, 2012, 06:05:03 PM
i completly understand your thoughts udai garu.

But i lost a discussion battle with one of my friend when i supported vivekananda.

He asked me what is the necessity to drink/smoke for the person of such calibar!

i tried to defend him but honestly i could not give him proper answer in the end!

Regarding sri ramakrishna guru eating fish i cannot understand why do u think it is no fault sir?

For me it is no fault only if animals does not have soul which is not the case as explained by our guru ramana?

If people cannot control their weekness how do u expect their disciples to listen to them sir?

even i read his teachings which are great but cannot understand why most of swami's gurus cannot control their weekness?

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 02, 2012, 06:15:30 PM
Udai,
Naren just wanted to test Sri Ramakrishna.The
disciples often heard him say that his nervous system had undergone a complete
change as a result of his spiritual experiences, and that he could not bear the touch of
any metal, such as gold or silver. One day, during his absence in Calcutta, Narendra
hid a coin under Ramakrishna's bed. After his return when the Master sat on the bed,
he started up in pain as if stung by an insect. The mattress was examined and the
hidden coin was found.

Namaskar
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on November 02, 2012, 06:23:29 PM
Devotee: If it is a question of doing something one considers wrong, and thereby saving some one else from a great wrong, should one do it or refrain from doing it?

Bhagavan: What is right and wrong? There is no standard by which to judge something to be right another to be wrong. Opinions differ according to the nature of the individual and according to the surroundings. They are again ideas and nothing more. Do not worry about them, but get rid of thoughts. If you always remain in the right, then right will prevail in the world.

(The devotee was not satisfied with this answer and asked for further elucidation.)

Sri Bhagavan then pointed out that to see wrong in another is one's own wrong. The discrimination between right and wrong is the origin of sin. One's own sin is reflected outside and the individual in ignorance superimposes it on another. The best course for one is to reach the state in which such discrimination does not arise. Do you see wrong or right in your sleep? Be asleep even in the wakeful state, abide as the Self and remain uncontaminated by what goes on around you. Moreover, however much you might advise them, you hearers may not rectify themselves. Be in the right yourself and remain silent. Your silence will have more effect than your words or deeds. That is the development of will power. Then the world becomes the Kingdom of Heaven, which is within you.

- From Talks



Sri Prashant, we need not defend the Guru to anybody. Let people have their say. What is winning or loosing in discussing the credentials of a Guru? In a way, it is good, you lost, loosing is winning! victory broods pride, 'my Guru is great' Not many realise true winning is in loosing! Don't have strong notions of right and wrongs!

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 02, 2012, 06:26:30 PM
Prashant,
There is no need to defend Sri Ramakrishna or Swami Vivekananda.People carry images and opinions,and as long as they give importance to those,it will be like that only.It is futile to contest that.I generally leave them to their opinions.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 02, 2012, 06:40:08 PM
udai,

"And more importantly one should never try to interpret another person's inspiration by a saint! No one is qualified to do that"

Glad to know that you realize this;i could see very little evidence of it till now. :)

This means that 10 or 100 posts of quotations may also be inspired! :)

I have posted on the Relationship between  being Impressed and Being Inspired.You seem to be saying that inspiration is linked to being impressed.I have debunked this linkage.

Please read what I have posted-It is for you to see whether it is inspiration.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: ramana_maharshi on November 02, 2012, 06:45:12 PM
Thanks a lot for all your advices.

Udai garu,

you read my inner heart! Yes little frustation is surely there.

Honestly 90% i am satisfied with guru ramana and due to my prarabdha i was not convinced that he is perfect.

But again i keep telling myself that guru ramana is unique and it will be hard and maybe impossible to find better guru than him who lived such a ascestic life and preached the same.

Due to my prarabdha again i cannot accept any guru who eats non-veg,smokes etc..

I strongly feel i will stay with guru ramana only till my last breath as i think it is hard to find a better guru than our guru ramana who lived and preached deep vairagya.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyways this is the reply i got from my friend when i defended vivekananda.

Dear Prasanth,

A verse from Taittiriya Samhita was even used to endeavour justifying such imprudence. In our humble opinion the verse from shikshavalli relates to the deeds of our ancestors; as far as we are aware the Swami was not of Brahmin kulam and therefore cannot be an ancestor of any Dvijottama. As Brahmins we should not accept anything that flouts our Dharma; that is why we even rejected the teachings of Bhagawan Buddha.

Though we would not criticise any Swami for we are not even the dust from their feet; nevertheless when considering who would be an ideal spiritual mentor Hindus must decide for themselves whether this ‘Swami’ (meaning ‘One who knows and is master of oneself, owner of oneself or one free from the senses’) actually fulfil these defining prerequisites, otherwise this would open the floodgates for fraudsters and vindicate ludicrous claims that even the prophet of Arabia Mahamand is mentioned in Hindu scriptures, though he broke almost every tenet of the Hindu Faith.

 

Indeed who are we to question the morality, lifestyle and habits of a giant like Swami Vivekananda ji but any attempt to question them have been described as digging up some irrelevant facts. But how they were so, we could not understand.

 

Is eating of beef by a Hindu (more so for a Sanyasi even when another type of meat is not available), an act of Dharma that it was thought to be irrelevant?

 

Hindus would unanimously agree that the cow is to be protected as she is most resourceful eating grass and providing milk, personifying mother earth and this principle extends to bulls which care for the earth by tilling the soil.  Those however who wish to consume beef may do so but they cannot evade the universal law of karma.  Being born into Hindu families and that out of the 8.4 million species of life, one would have thought that they should know better.  It is highly objectionable therefore that those ‘Hindu’ beef-eaters and their supporters then try to validate this irregular penchant through interpolated scriptural injunctions.

 

A Sanyasi has to live as per the dictates of Sanyas Dharma as taught in the Shaastras.

 

Flesh eating is a thing too far, even such simple acts of Himsa (as cutting of a twig from a tree for cleansing the teeth) are forbidden to him.

 

And drinking of alcohol constitutes a Mahaa-paatak: a Mahaa Paap. Leave aside a Sanyasi, even an ordinary Hindu if he became a consumer of alcohol, he becomes fallen and an untouchable. It is so heinous in Hindu Dharma that Bhagawan Manu has written: One who keeps the company of such a person for one year; he too becomes the like of him!

 

Brahma-hatyaa suraa-paanam steyam gurvangaanaa-gamah/

Mahaanti paatakaany-aahuh sansargash-ch-api taih saha// 11:54

 

Yag. Sm. 3:219 states: On eating or drinking forbidden foods one falls from jaati:

 

Vihitasya-ananush-thaanaat, ninditasya ch sevanaat/

Anigrahaat-ch-indriyaanaam, narah patanam-richhati//

 

Alcohol drinking is so grievous a sin that the prescribed repentance for it is hair-raising... Such a person has to drink boiling-hot cow-urine, water, milk, ghee or liquid-cow dung (panchagavya) until he falls dead!

 

Gomootram-agni-varnam vaa pibet-udakam-eva vaa/

Payo-ghritam vaa aa-maranaad goshakrit-rasam-eva vaa// Manu 11:91

 

Alternately, he has to eat only Kana grains or oil-cake, and that too once at night for one year, wear clothes made of hair, keep jaTA (matted-hair) and carry a flag showing the symbol of alcohol (to expose the crime):

 

Kanaan-vaa bhakshayet-abdam, pinyaakam-sakrid-nishi/

Suraa-paan-apnuty-artham baal-vaasaa, jatee, dhvajee// 92

 

In fact, alcohol is not a drink of the humans. It is said to be that of the Rakshasas. Manu Smriti has stated that wine, meat and liquor are foods of Raakshasas, Yakshas and Pishaachas:

 

Yaksha raksha pishaach-annam madyam-maansam suraa-aasavam/

Tad braahmanena na attavyam devaa-naam ashnataa-havih// 95.

 

Pork, chicken, onion and garlic too are such items on consuming which one has a fall from Jaati, to regain which, he has to undergo prescribed penances:

 

Chhatra-aakam vid-vaaraaham ch, lashunam graam-kukkutam/

Palaandum grinjanam chaiva, matvaa jagdhvaa patet dvijah// Manu 5:19

 

Now we show what the Scriptures say about eating fish - for which respected Swami Vivekanand jee had a special tooth, a special taste and a special weakness:

 

A person, who eats the meat of an animal, is called eater of that animal. And one who eats fish, therefore, is an eater of everything (including humans) because fish devours everything that has fallen, is found or thrown into water. No one should, therefore, eat fish:

 

Yo yasya maanasam ashnaati sa tan-maans-aad uchyate/

Matsya-aadah sarva-maans-aadas-tasmaat-matsyaan-vivarjayet// 5:15

 

 

Gita says:

 

Yad yad aacharati shreshtthas-tad-tad-eva etaro janaah/

Sa yat-pramaanam kuroote lokas-tad-anuvartate// (3:21)

 

(Whatsoever a great man does, that alone the other men do; whatever he establishes as the standard, the world follows that.)

 

An icon’s life is an ideal for others to follow. Do we want our people to imitate these habits of Swami jee and start eating fish, beef and other Maunkshoos; and our women to become chain smokers?

 

Greater dangers are the Hindu political leaders who smoke cigarettes and consume all kinds of meats, including beef; are bereft of faith and belief in Dharma, and do not follow and practise it, its principles and the Scripture-taught traditional ways of life.

 

How many Muslims would one be able to find who were consumers of pork? And if at all one did find someone, would he ever be accepted as a Mullah or a Maulana by the scholars; nay, even by the common Muslims?

 

It baffles us how a person who had declared that he was a Sanyasi could, at the same time, be a devourer of the flesh of harmless, innocent animals (even cows) as well. How could this then be describable as an example of understanding the suffering of sentient beings?

 

We are also not able to understand how slaughter of animals does not -- or would not -- cause pain and sufferance to them? So far as we have read and understood our Dharmic Texts, a Sanyasi ought to try to alleviate pain and sufferance of the beings; not bring about them.

 

Furthermore all Brahmins should consider and investigate the following and kindly inform us all as to:

 

1. Which was the order (of Sanyasis) into which he was ordained? Whose order was it, and who was his Guru who had initiated him into this Ashram?

 

2. Also, did he go into it stepwise after going through the previous three Ashramas, or had gone straight into it? If the latter; was it possible (especially in his case) in accordance with our Dharma, teachings of the Scriptures and the traditions?

 

3. So far as our knowledge goes, Swami jee had not gone through even the first Ashrama of Brahmacharya. How could he have entered the fourth and the last one then?

 

Shri Ramkrishna Paramhans also could not have initiated him because he himself was a Grihasthi and not a Sanyasi. Moreover, at the time of the death of Shree Paramhannsa, Swami jee was still Narendranath, and had not become Vivekanand. (This can be confirmed from his photographs at that time.)

 

Who then was his Guru who had given him the SanyAsa and the new name and the sacred robes?

 

We are afraid, it was he himself! It was he who had pretended it, chose and adopted the new name, donned the robes and became a sanyasi without going through any formal initiation! The order into which he entered too was not an authentic and recognised one. It was a new one started by him!

 

Now; could this be done? And was it possible, right and in order in accordance with our traditions, practices and Scriptural teachings? If it was; how, and on what pramaans?

 

Another question that comes to our mind is about his entitlement to it. Was he entitled to become a Sanyasi? If so; how, and on which Scriptural authority?

 

Lastly, there is an aphorism which asserts, ‘yatha guru tatha shishya.’ A disciple will invariably emulate his spiritual role model and if this Swami is free from vice or desire; is compassionate, selfless, wise and upholding the tenets of Dharma related in our scriptures, then verily his devoted followers will be shining emissaries of their preceptor.  Regrettably, if any ‘Swami’ be a slave to the senses, narcissistic, defiant, and unconventional, going against the precepts of Hindu scriptures, then invariably his fervent devotees will propound and uphold such notions blaspheming in the name of Sanatana Dharma.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on November 02, 2012, 06:55:53 PM
satsangatve nissngatvam
nissangatve nirmohatvam
nirmohatve nishchalatattvam
nishcalatattve jiivanmuktih
 
From Satsanga comes non-attachment, from non-attachment comes freedom from delusion, which leads to self-settledness. From self-settledness comes Jivan Mukti (liberation).

More importantly, AcAryAs have said that one should have santsang with SAT PURUSHA not with miscellaneous people, which will only derail oneself further

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 02, 2012, 07:10:42 PM
Prashant,
Interesting to go through the longish mail from your acquaintance.All the points can be refuted,but to what purpose. :)

Let us take this :
" In our humble opinion the verse from shikshavalli relates to the deeds of our ancestors; as far as we are aware the Swami was not of Brahmin kulam and therefore cannot be an ancestor of any Dvijottama. As Brahmins we should not accept anything that flouts our Dharma"

Just ask this person whether he accepts Bhagavad Gita as authentic.Did he accept Lord Sri Krishna?Was Sri Krishna a Brahmin?

Great souls like Swami Vivekananda ,unlike the ordinary jivas,are not born on account of Karma to be worked out.Unlike ordinary jivas who struggle to free themselves from Karma,The Nitya Siddhas like swami Vivekananda impose upon themselves the 'Yoke' of Bondage to do the work for which they are born!They have to assume 'Desires' in order to continue their physical existence.Swamiji used to occasionaly eat meat in order to increase 'Rajas'!This 'Rajoguna' had to be assumed by him to combat the Tamoguna of the masses.He was born in a Kshatriya caste.
It is like the mother has to soil her hand if she has to wash the baby's bottom.

If you are genuinely interested,I am willing to invest time to go through this and answer the charges.I do not think it is necessary at all.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 02, 2012, 07:34:25 PM
Prashant,

Quote
"So far as our knowledge goes, Swami jee had not gone through even the first Ashrama of Brahmacharya. How could he have entered the fourth and the last one then?
Shri Ramkrishna Paramhans also could not have initiated him because he himself was a Grihasthi and not a Sanyasi. Moreover, at the time of the death of Shree Paramhannsa, Swami jee was still Narendranath, and had not become Vivekanand. (This can be confirmed from his photographs at that time.)
Who then was his Guru who had given him the SanyAsa and the new name and the sacred robes?
We are afraid, it was he himself! It was he who had pretended it, chose and adopted the new name, donned the robes and became a sanyasi without going through any formal initiation! The order into which he entered too was not an authentic and recognised one. It was a new one started by him."

No,the Knowledge does not go beyond 'Om Bhuhu';I mean Nose! :)

Sri Ramakrishna was initiated by Tota puri,who belongs to the Puri order of Sanyasis.This is how Sri Ramakrishna was initiated into sannyAsa:

"In the burning flame before him Sri Ramakrishna performed the rituals of destroying his
attachment to relatives, friends, body, mind, sense-organs, ego, and the world. The leaping
flame swallowed it all, making the initiate free and pure. The sacred thread and the tuft of
hair were consigned to the fire, completing his severance from caste, sex, and society. Last
of all he burnt in that fire, with all that is holy as his witness, his desire for enjoyment here
and hereafter. He uttered the sacred mantras giving assurance of safety and fearlessness to
all beings, who were only manifestations of his own Self. The rites completed, the disciple
received from the guru the loincloth and ochre robe, the emblems of his new life".


Sri Ramakrishna had subsequently practised other sadhanas as well;that is a big story that I have posted in the Rough note book thread.

It was Sri Ramakrishna who distributed the Ochre robes to his sanyasin Disciples,although they took formal vows after his passing away.Swami Vivekananda did not assume this name;he just wandered the length and breadth of the country assuming various names .It was Khetri Maharaja who pleaded and requested swamiji to accept the Name 'Vivekananda'!

Prashant,We need to first read the Biographies of these Great ones and also reminiscences by devotees to get to know them.Ofcourse,it is through their teachings that the understanding becomes crystallized.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Jewell on November 02, 2012, 07:35:40 PM
Dear Friends,

I must say,with any intention to offend someone,that i didnt read recently something so norow,rigid and fundamentalistic like that letter Sri Prasanth posted. It is very important that every sentence begins with Gita said. So we need a book to tell us how to live,and that is also a matter how we interpret that book,so any discrimination from us is completely unnecesary coz Gita,Bible etc said! And we will interpret the book which is that old,in 21 centuiry,in the same way like those people back then.
Also,we need a perfect person to tell us that All this is Illusion,and dream! He needs to be perfect because of what exactly? And what doas metter if someone smoke? How can that be sin in any way,i would like that someone explane that to me. Who decided that it is a sin?
So,we need perfect man to show us the Truth,and then what?! Then we will follow. I dont think so,the problem is in us not in Sages.
WE had Krishna,Rama,Buddha,Jesus,Muhamed,Ramakrishna,Bhagavan,Vivekananda,Yogananda,Osho,Nisargadatta,Aurobindo,and a thousant more Great ones and Saints,and we are not satisfied,they are not to clean and virtous for us,siners! What irony! That kind of person wont see God even if He hit him in the forehead!
I am sorry,but i simply must to reply something. Sure,only to letter,not to You Sri Prasanth!
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: ramana_maharshi on November 02, 2012, 07:52:58 PM
Dear Ravi agru and Jewell garu and udai garu,

Thanks a lot in throwing some light in ramakrishna's biography and posting your views.

I respect vivekananda a lot and infact i have posted number of articles from his completed-works and few of the sayings of sri ramakrishna in my blog.

http://www.prashantaboutindia.blogspot.co.uk/ (http://www.prashantaboutindia.blogspot.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: ramana_maharshi on November 03, 2012, 12:26:20 PM
yes thanks a lot udai garu.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Jewell on November 03, 2012, 02:12:19 PM
Quote
Man cannot really help the world. God alone does that — He Who has created the sun and the moon, Who has put love for their children in parents' hearts, endowed noble souls with compassion, and holy men and devotees with divine love. The man who works for others, without any selfish motive, really does good to himself. There is gold buried in your heart, but you are not yet aware of it. It is covered with a thin layer of earth. Once you are aware of it, all these activities of yours will lessen

Dear Hari,

This is one of my favourite quotations of Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa! It have so much truth in it.
Thank You!
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Hari on November 03, 2012, 03:10:52 PM
Yes, there is a lot of truth! Thank you, dear Jewell!
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 03, 2012, 03:35:05 PM
Jewell/Hari/Friends,
Sri Ramakrishna is sweet and childlike;yet he wielded the sledge hammer as and when required and crush egotism!
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna as to how the Master put Kristodas pal in his place!

Kristodas Pal

The Europeanized Kristodas Pal did not approve of the Master's emphasis on renunciation and said: "Sir, this cant of renunciation has almost ruined the country. It is for this reason that the Indians are a subject nation today. Doing good to others, bringing education to the door of the ignorant, and above all, improving the material conditions of the country - these should be our duty now. The cry of religion and renunciation would, on the contrary, only weaken us. You should advise the young men of Bengal to resort only to such acts as will uplift the country."

 Sri Ramakrishna gave him a searching look and found no divine light within. "You man of poor understanding!" Sri Ramakrishna said sharply. "You dare to slight in these terms renunciation and piety, which our scriptures describe as the greatest of all virtues! After reading two pages of English you think you have come to know the world! You appear to think you are omniscient. Well, have you seen those tiny crabs that are born in the Ganges just when the rains set in? In this big universe you are even less significant than one of those small creatures. How dare you talk of helping the world? The Lord will look to that. You haven't the power in you to do it."

After a pause the Master continued:
"Can you explain to me how you can work for others? I know what you mean by helping them. To feed a number of persons, to treat them when they are sick, to construct a road or dig a well - Isn't that all? These are good deeds, no doubt, but how trifling in comparison with the vastness of the universe! How far can a man advance in this line? How many people can you save from famine? Malaria has ruined a whole province; what could you do to stop its onslaught? God alone looks after the world. Let a man first realize Him. Let a man get the authority from God and be endowed with His power; then, and then alone, may he think of doing good to others. A man should first be purged of all egotism. Then alone will the Blissful Mother ask him to work for the world."

This is one of the strongest reprimands that I have ever encountered ,one that thoroughly demolished all 'concept' of helping the world! :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Jewell on November 03, 2012, 03:59:38 PM
Dear Sri Ravi,

Beautiful words of Sri Ramakrishna! And i like Your ways of putting in everything some subbtle message and points. Thank You for that!!

Quote
God alone looks after the world. Let a man first realize Him. Let a man get the authority from God and be endowed with His power; then, and then alone, may he think of doing good to others.

This i love the most. We cannot know what is good and bad,what is right or wrong,untill we know the Truth. Not everything is like it seems,and everything can have some other purpouse,then obvious one. We should not take anything like the fact.

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on November 03, 2012, 04:25:19 PM
Jewell,
The only purpose is to realize God and Love him.Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

"Siva was seated in Kailas. His companion Nandi was near Him. Suddenly a terrific noise
arose. 'Revered Sir,' asked Nandi, 'what does that mean?' Siva said: 'Ravana is born. That is
its meaning.' A few moments later another terrific noise was heard. 'Now what is this
noise?' Nandi asked. Siva said with a smile, 'Now Ravana is dead. Birth and death are like
magic: you see the magic for a second and then it disappears. God alone is real and all else
unreal. Water alone is real; its bubbles appear and disappear. They disappear into the very
water from which they rise
."

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Jewell on November 03, 2012, 05:06:35 PM
Dear Sri Ravi,

Absolutely true!!! Our ONLY purpose is to realise who we are,there can be no question of that! And,yet,we cannot know trough wich way we will realise That..

Sure,i dont know about others,i know only for myself!

With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 05, 2012, 05:39:25 PM
Dear Udai,

I just want to convey again as a good friend, i do not have absolutely anything person against you. my persistence in debating with you is to only bring to your awareness the dangers of traps of knowledge. I do not deny you do come up with good pointers of truth, but it is evident that you are caught up rather strongly in possessing knowledge, if you can only give up the sprouting owner in your, it will be sweet and nice, more than to anybody else to your own good self. :)

Once Paul Brunton asked Bhagavan Ramana:

"To attain enlghtenment, should I give up all possessions?" 
Bh:  "Give up the possessor too!"

There will be an ocean of paradigm shift if you present your expressions as such a one. Why all these speeches in trying to enlighten everybody else? Why engage in illusive speeches of pointers to others? when Others themselves are illusions ultimately?

Just request you to introspect for your own self :) in the millions of other pointers, i hope you may consider this for your own good :)

Best wishes and prayers,

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 05, 2012, 05:50:45 PM
         :) The knowledge is non-possess-able.
Awareness which is pure Presence just IS.

While explaining a point, one uses "I" and that "I" , the ego, is present as a burnt rope ... an "Objective" I. A Mirage.   

To whom are you explaining?

:)

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 05, 2012, 05:59:42 PM
"Explaining" , the "one who is explaining"  and the "explained to" are all three mithya.
Self neither explains nor is the teacher or student.
one who knows he is the Self is comfortable with explaining as well as remaining mute!
and he is also clear as to the difference between he who knows and he who does not know ... coz they are all mithya. vyavaharika. and mithya does not vanish upon jnana.

Then who is it that is doing all the the expressions?

:)

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 05, 2012, 06:27:04 PM
You play the role of Ravana in a play and say "i am not Ravana".
Where is the problem ?:)

To whom you are having to say "I am not Ravana"?

:)

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 20, 2012, 05:05:40 PM
Quote
:) is it not?
:) No.
Jnana Viheena Sarvamathena, bhajati na muktim janma shatena.
One without jnana, what ever religious system he practises, will not find liberation even in a 100 births.
Lets not discuss this here however. These are like my musings ... if they seem dry to some its ok.

What jnana you are talking about? can you please elaborate the Jnana? :) what is the basis of your saying 'NO'

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 20, 2012, 05:56:17 PM
Brahma-Atma-Aikya-Bodha vina, without this Brahma-Atma-Aikyam ... no possibility of liberation.

How does Brahma Atma Aikya Bodha Vina occur? and where does it not occur?

1. How does a person find liberation ?

Who is it that finds liberation?

2. What is liberation ?

Who remains to know what is liberation? You have said, however, brahma atma aikya is liberation, as quoted by Adi Shankara.

3. Who finds liberation ?

This is my question to your 1st question.

4. What is bhakti ?

Brahma Atma Aikya is Bhakti


5. Whats jnana ?

Brahma Atma Aikya is jnana

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 20, 2012, 06:24:15 PM
When you said "Brahma-atma-aikyam" is jnanam/bhakti ...
what do you mean ?
Who needs this ?
Self ? Which is ever one with Brahma-atma-aikyam does not need it.
Body ? Does not need it !
so you are left with mind...
plz tell me ...

I quote from the Svetasvatara Upanishad (6.23) to your query -

यस्य देवे परा भक्तिः यथा देवे तथा गुरौ ।
तस्यैते कथिता ह्यर्थाः प्रकाशन्ते महात्मनः ॥
प्रकाशन्ते महात्मन इति ।


यस्य For whom देवे to God परा भक्तिः Supreme devotion यथा देवे as to God तथा So गुरौ To the Master ।
तस्यैते To that [high souled] one कथिता expounded ह्यर्थाः these truths प्रकाशन्ते shine महात्मनः to that high souled॥
प्रकाशन्ते महात्मन इति shine as High Soul indeed.

These truths, when taught, shine forth only in that high-souled one who has Supreme Devotion to God, and an equal degree of devotion the Spiritual Master. They shine forth in that High-Souled one only.

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 20, 2012, 06:25:24 PM
Nagaraj/Friends,
What is Brahma-atma aikya?What is Brahma?What is atma?What is aikya?
I thought ,let me also use my rusty reasoning and give it some work. :)

Reminded of a painting competition where children participated.All but one child were busy Drawing and then colouring and when the time was up ,they handed over their painting to the teacher.One child which just did not use either pencil or colour handed over a Blank sheet.On being questioned,she said that she had drawn a Goat with Grass and  aTiger?On being further questioned she said,'Yes,The Goat had eaten the Grass and the Tiger sprang on the Goat and has carried it away;Now nothing is left to be seen'.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 20, 2012, 06:36:10 PM
udai/Friends,
Ofcourse you were in the list of friends.What about Nagaraj now?
Now are you in the list? :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 20, 2012, 06:52:39 PM
Dear Nagaraj,
      :) Please also explain that to us in simple english :)
Because I did not read this upanishad.
and more importantly a upanishad study means i have to look into what shankara says there.
so you can express your exact view on this. that would be good.
question is single pointed:
who gets brahma-atma-aikyam ?
body, mind or Self ... or anything else ! like a ghost may be ?

Please take time and see what Shankara has to say. Just to let you know that Adi Shankara called this Upanishad as the Mantra Upanishad. A key feature of the Svetasvatara Upanishad is its emphasis on the bhakti or Upasana aspect to realise the Supreme. It has passages allied in thought to the Sankhya Yoga, with the Upanishad laying equal stress on jnana, bhakt and other spiritual paths.

I do not have any personal view Udai, i am just re-producing as it is, i do not try to instill my own personal views on upanishads, any personal views, I occasionally express in my thread "My Musings"

You asked -

question is single pointed:
who gets brahma-atma-aikyam ?
body, mind or Self ... or anything else ! like a ghost may be ?

I have provided for the response to your query in in what i quoted from Svetasvatara Upanishad (6.23) -

यस्य देवे परा भक्तिः यथा देवे तथा गुरौ ।
तस्यैते कथिता ह्यर्थाः प्रकाशन्ते महात्मनः ॥
प्रकाशन्ते महात्मन इति ।


यस्य For whom देवे to God परा भक्तिः Supreme devotion यथा देवे as to God तथा So गुरौ To the Master ।
तस्यैते To that [high souled] one कथिता expounded ह्यर्थाः these truths प्रकाशन्ते shine महात्मनः to that high souled॥
प्रकाशन्ते महात्मन इति shine as High Soul indeed.

These truths, when taught, shine forth only in that high-souled one who has Supreme Devotion to God, and an equal degree of devotion the Spiritual Master. They shine forth in that High-Souled one only.


Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 20, 2012, 06:55:14 PM
What is Brahma-atma aikya?What is Brahma?What is atma?What is aikya?
I thought ,let me also use my rusty reasoning and give it some work. :)

Reminded of a painting competition where children participated.All but one child were busy Drawing and then colouring and when the time was up ,they handed over their painting to the teacher.One child which just did not use either pencil or colour handed over a Blank sheet.On being questioned,she said that she had drawn a Goat with Grass and  aTiger?On being further questioned she said,'Yes,The Goat had eaten the Grass and the Tiger sprang on the Goat and has carried it away;Now nothing is left to be seen'.

only the child is left to disappear further :D , perhaps, upon handing over the paper to the teacher, he is no more to be seen :)

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Jewell on December 20, 2012, 06:57:54 PM
Dear Sri Tushnim, I am sorry,i saw late that message,about moving discusion here. :) I will move my posts when i come through computer.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 20, 2012, 07:15:27 PM
Friends,
Let us keep things simple.Bhakti is the love and attraction that one feels towards God who is more oneself than oneself!Even if it be dualistic,what is the problem?Absolutely none.
Jnana is to be aware of the presence of the one  we love.
Magnetic poles are two but magnetic field is one.Such is jiva Brahma aikya.
This is how Sri Ramakrishna puts it simply :
"The mind is like a needle covered with mud, and God is like a
magnet
. The needle cannot be united with the magnet unless it is free from mud. Tears
wash away the mud, which is nothing but lust, anger, greed, and other evil tendencies, and
the inclination to worldly enjoyments as well. As soon as the mud is washed away, the
magnet attracts the needle, that is to say, man realizes God. Only the pure in heart see God".

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 20, 2012, 07:30:12 PM
Sri Ravi,

unfortunately, generally it is seen that simple things are not appealing enough!

The real problem with current spirituality, is it is ridden with philosophic systems or siddhantas.

personally, i would like to keep off from all siddhantas - neither advaita nor dvaita, visishtadvaita, advaitaadvaita, dvaitaadvaita, shunya, shaiva, vaishnava, also want to walk away from the terms brahman, atman, aikyam, mukti, jivanmukti, kingdom of heaven, nirvana, what ever else is left out.

Free from all mad crowd. happy doing things without names attributed, without calling something as bhakti or jnana or discernment or joy and so on :D no care for mukti or bandha.

I remember the wonderful quote of Sharada Devi, who used to scold his disciples for too much effort. She compared them to mangoes on the tree which are being plucked before they are ripe. 'Why hurry?' she used to say. 'Wait till you are fully ripe, mellow and sweet.'

:)

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 20, 2012, 07:37:08 PM
Nagaraj,
You are truly blessed.To be utterly simple is to be sahaja.What is important is to have True hunger,and not a stimulated appetite that only leads to dyspepsia. :)
When one is Hungry,the simplest of teachings will do.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Jewell on December 20, 2012, 07:47:32 PM
Dear Sri Ravi, How i see it,from that quote from Sri Ramakrishna,there is that difference betwean His and Bhagavan's approach,and that is,from Sri Ramakrisha-Remove the dirth(even if i believe that He is not saying that,but He is telling-Love the God,and it will be removed),and Bhagavan's-You are not the dirth. Who wants to remove it? Find him. That is one big difference,but again,only because His words can be interpret it that way,from this contects. And,from my point of view,He is not telling us-You are the sinners,and sinners cannot realise God,but the ego cannot realise the God. And,again,ultimatievly,how i understand,both are leading us to the same point. One was bhakti,other jnana. And that too is mind game,trying to put everything in concept and some category. And,the truth is,both are toys. With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: atmavichar100 on December 20, 2012, 07:54:10 PM
Quote
personally, i would like to keep off from all siddhantas - neither advaita nor dvaita, visishtadvaita, advaitaadvaita, dvaitaadvaita, shunya, shaiva, vaishnava, also want to walk away from the terms brahman, atman, aikyam, mukti, jivanmukti, kingdom of heaven, nirvana, what ever else is left out.
:)
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 20, 2012, 07:57:26 PM
I am reproducing all the posts from Adhyatma Ramayana Thread. Sri Jewel, you need not take the pain to transfer, but you can just delete your posts :) that would do.

Sri Udai,

Adyaatma Ramayana is truly wonderful. I felt like expressing couple of thoughts. A person of strong faith, realises that Rama is supreme being, simply by the sheer fact that He is Rama, and he killed Ravana, and he was maryada purush. That he is the ideal/perfect man is enough for a layman to realise that He is the Supreme being, a person of such faith does not require to know that Rama was untouched by Suffering, and Sita was Maya, and Rama simply sported the games for giving light to the world and so on.

Where as, on the other hand, the one that is looking for deeper insights on the Truth, that Rama was, who desires to know the nature of para brahman that Rama was, discerns what Rama truly is.

i felt like expressing this to you, and this is not even showing any difference between the two, the former and the latter are happy in their own sweet place. :) is it not?



Dear Nagaraj,
        :)

Quote
:) is it not?
:) No.

Jnana Viheena Sarvamathena, bhajati na muktim janma shatena.
One without jnana, what ever religious system he practises, will not find liberation even in a 100 births.
Lets not discuss this here however. These are like my musings ... if they seem dry to some its ok.

Dear Sri Jewel,

:) I am curious to know your view on Tushnims above expression. Would you be kind enough to please let know your view? Thanks so much.

Quote
:) is it not?
:) No.

Jnana Viheena Sarvamathena, bhajati na muktim janma shatena.
One without jnana, what ever religious system he practises, will not find liberation even in a 100 births.
Lets not discuss this here however. These are like my musings ... if they seem dry to some its ok.



Nagraj, Jewell --- lets move that to common discussion ... its a very common thing for discussion. and this is uncommon thread :D

Dear Sri Nagaraj, Strangly,but truly not strangly at all,without trying to vague betwean Yours and Sri Tushnim expression,i find both statements valid. It doasnt matter what path someone choses,with strong faith and surrender,anyone can realise the Truth,and he dont need to know anything about the facts,or God. And other statement is also correct,because,without jnana,and for me that is knowledge about what is ego,realisation is impossible. So,the first person will arive,with path of love,realising in the end what he realy is,and what ego and God are. In that light other is true also. And the second will arive by the path of knowledge,realising the same thing. But,ultimatievly,both are led by the same power,the Grace and Love. Thats why i say both are same thing,only different in expression,and suited for different kind of people.

So,i will say that we can arive to the Truth no matter what path we chose. And we will arive to it using both in the end,bhakti and jnana. I dont mean on selfinquiry when i say jnana,but on knowledge what the ego,mind,person,maya,realy is. Selfinquiry is the mettod,like there are a many mettods,and we can chose what ever we want. But in the end,we all we realise same thing. And jnana Is the path of introspection,investigation,it doasnt need to apply much learning. Like bhakti is the path of love,with simple surrender to the chosen Ideal. Both are the same. In jnana we have Ideal too,like in bhakti we have knowledge also. In both we have all the thoughts replaced with one. They are,for me,different rutes only,but in essence,both have the same interrelation with knowledge and love. Both come on the same,no matter how we call them. With love and prayers,

Thanks so much Sri Jewel, :)

Now I request Sri Tushnim to please express his views on your,  above expression.



Nagaraj ji , your are very clever.

Coming to the point ... I am going to answer in the common thread and you can delete this and post it there plz ?
then v will discuss  this.


Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Jewell on December 20, 2012, 07:58:19 PM
Dear Sri Nagaraj, Thesa are beautiful words which You quoted from Sri Sarada Devi. And i to believe that this talk about jnana and bhakti is pointless. What is bhakti,what is jnana in the end? What name we can give to Love and Grace,which is only cause of everything. We all will arive to the Truth,no matter what name we give to some path. That same path is the Truth itself,same,one thing,one Autority. With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on December 20, 2012, 08:08:11 PM
:) I really appreciate the patience of discussing and debating these at length :).

May the debates, arguments, discussions drop dead :) and let us see what remains...

Sanjay
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 20, 2012, 08:11:17 PM
Jewell -> Myself -> Nagaraj [intermediating] Discussion

If you are purna , Complete here and now ... Anything you do to "attain" purnatvam is a only strengthening the idea that you are not purna.
So ... Jnana alone liberates.
As even the 10th man has only to know that he is the 10th man ... he need not surrender to a 10th man, nor pray to 11th man.

Sri Udai, I request to specifically respond to her post. What you have now said is a different matter, which can be discussed later.

Quote
personally, i would like to keep off from all siddhantas - neither advaita nor dvaita, visishtadvaita, advaitaadvaita, dvaitaadvaita, shunya, shaiva, vaishnava, also want to walk away from the terms brahman, atman, aikyam, mukti, jivanmukti, kingdom of heaven, nirvana, what ever else is left out.

This siddhanta of yours to keep all those siddhantas "off" :D
This will be left out.
Plz leave this , and be a good advaita boy. you will do well.

This, yet again is an onlookers point of view :D if it be a new Siddhanta, hey! :D great, I have discovered a new Siddhanta :D

It is said when Brahma yawned, the hayaghriva demon, swallowed all the vedas :D and Vishnu had to take Matsya Avatar to retrieve all the Vedas once again.

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on December 20, 2012, 08:12:26 PM
Quote
ITs like saying may all waves subside and ill see the true ocean


:) More...

Sanjay
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on December 20, 2012, 08:14:39 PM
Blessed are those who dont yearn for blessing :)

Sanjay
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Jewell on December 20, 2012, 08:45:33 PM
Dear Sri Tushnim,dear Sri Nagaraj, I dont see the point of this discussion at all. One is talking about the path,and another about one fact which is necessary for liberation. That knowledge Is love only,and that love is knowledge, in the end. And paths,rutes are different expressions of both. These are little different things about which You are talking. And all agree on one fact,that there is no such thing like Realisation. With love and prayers,
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 21, 2012, 09:10:51 AM
Tushnim,

Knowledge is love, but Bhakti is not knowledge?  ;)

can you please respond to Sri Jewel's observation -

And paths,rutes are different expressions of both. These are little different things about which You are talking. And all agree on one fact,that there is no such thing like Realisation. With love and prayers,

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: atmavichar100 on December 21, 2012, 01:06:56 PM
Quote
The 10th man does not find the 10th man by praying to a 11th man :D even if he prays and the 11th man is very happy, he will only come and tell him : You are the 10th man.
so unless he "KNOWS" he is the 10th man [MENTALLY KNOWS] , he cannot find that 10th man.

Some cases for the 10th Man to test he is mentally fit first  :)

Case-1 : If the 10th Man is normal sane individual , he will understand what the 11th man says that he is the 10th man and stop worrying .

Case -2: If the 10th Men is a  Clinically Depressed person what will you do ? The mind of a clinically depressed person sees things differently. All the logical explanation you have given above just simply does not apply in the mind of a depressed person.
He needs to be treated for depression and brought back to normal and only then will he understand that he is the 10th Man .

Case-3 :If the 10th Man is highly drunk , instead of seeing 10 people he will be seeing 20 people  :)
So no logic will work for him .One needs to wait till he gets over his drunken state and brought back to normal before the logic enters his head that he is the 10th Man .

So in conclusion :
Logical Knowledge can enter the mind of a person only when he is mentally healthy , sane and fit . Self Knowledge enters the mind of a person only when he is mentally /emotionally prepared through the traditional "Four Disciplines  and Six Behavior Traits"( Sadhana Chatushtaya /  shamAdi Shatsampat )
How one acquires those 4 means and 6 virtues may differ - some through Karma , some through Bhakti , some through Yoga and some through a combination of Karma , Yoga , Bhakti .

Quote
The sAdhana chatuShTaya is described by Shankara in the vivekachUDAmaNi as follows:

Adau nityAnityavastuvivekaH parigaNyate |
ihAmutraphalabhOgavirAgasttadanantaram ||
shamAdiShaTkasampattiH mumukShutvamiti sphuTam || - Verse 19.

The first discipline( Viveka )  is the discrimination between the Real and unreal. The next discipline( Vairagya )  is the detachment or dispassion from the enjoyments of the world here and after death (heaven). The third discipline (shamAdi ShaTka sampatti) is the practice of the six behavior traits - shama, dama, uparati, samAdhAna, shraddhA and titikShA; the fourth discipline ( mumukShutva ) is the intense desire for escape from this saMsAra or realization of the divinity in her or him.

Om Peace .
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: atmavichar100 on December 21, 2012, 01:27:05 PM
Quote
please ponder. why is the mind sick ? due to wrong ideas and understanding.

Even to ponder one needs a fit mind first  :)
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 21, 2012, 03:56:25 PM
Sri Atmavichar,

Quote
please ponder. why is the mind sick ? due to wrong ideas and understanding.
Even to ponder one needs a fit mind first  :)

So in conclusion : Logical Knowledge can enter the mind of a person only when he is mentally healthy , sane and fit . Self Knowledge enters the mind of a person only when he is mentally /emotionally prepared through the traditional "Four Disciplines  and Six Behavior Traits"( Sadhana Chatushtaya /  shamAdi Shatsampat )
How one acquires those 4 means and 6 virtues may differ - some through Karma , some through Bhakti , some through Yoga and some through a combination of Karma , Yoga , Bhakti .

Mind need not be fit and all, if ones heart yearns enough, that is enough. Mind is nothing, mind is myth, what do we aspire to realise through mind? IT is through heart that one communions. Prabhakara, the disciple though appearing quite handsome, behaved rather like an idiot, but when his parents bought him to Adi Shankara he sang in gist the tatva rasa of Truth (I do not want to call it Advaita anymore) Shankara named him Hastamalka (one with the amalaka fruit in his hand - Truth)

Nochur Acharya also has said in his talks, Veda Odhuvardu, it is not read, from heart to heart, Truth is awakened by upanishad: upa (nearby), ni (at the proper place, down) and ṣhad (to sit) sitting down near", implying sitting near a teacher to receive instruction or, alternatively, "sitting at the foot of the Master", or "laying siege" to the teacher.

It is not the fitness of mind that is required, it is fitness of the heart. What ever you derive through your mind is useless tinsel. just knowledge garbage. no use of it.

When one is able to see through the Upa Nayana, from the eye of the heart (not of the mind) which is beyond the rationale and logics of mind, one truly becomes blessed. Yato vacho nivartante aprapya manasa saha (where words fail to reach, along with the mind)

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 21, 2012, 03:59:34 PM
This may be of good context to this thread.

A wise old Zen master, very near death, lay quietly on his mat with his eyes closed, all his disciples gathered around. Kneeling closest to him was his number one disciple, a longtime practitioner who would succeed the old man as head of the monastery. At one point the old master opened his eyes, and lovingly gazed at each and every one of his disciples assembled in the crowded room. Finally his glance rested on his successor, and he managed to speak his last words to the man: “Ah, my son, you have a very thorough knowledge of the teachings and scriptures, and you have shown great discipline in keeping the precepts. Your behavior has, in fact, been flawless. Yet there is one more thing remaining to be cleared up: you still reek and stink of ‘Zen’!”

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 21, 2012, 04:16:48 PM
Dear Friends,

I want to express that, in general, Sri Tushnim's expressions are not acceptable to me, they are primarily against the founding principles of Veda and the fundamental messages of the great saints. In my limited understanding, they do not conform to the Veda Shastras, even though here and there, some of his points may be found to be of help, over all, they do not seem acceptable to me. very subtly, he has been expressing some teachings that are not in the line of the teachings of Bhagavan Ramana or Sri Ramakrishna or Shirdi Sai Baba, and has been misrepresenting and misquoting the quotes of Adi Shankara at various instances.

Tushnim's expressions are a classic example of Neo-Advaitic school thoughts.

Some may be of the opinion that even through this way one can attain to the Truth. IT may be so, but i do not find it in conforming in the lines of Veda shastras.

He uses some of Sri Annamalai Swami's quotes here and there to justify his stands, but in such cases, Sri Annamalai Swami can say it, as he is saying so from a different place altogether. But I feel, some times his expressions are purely for swadhyaaya Self Study alone and not for sharing between disciples in quest for truth. Some times, the Guru may say some things that are completely against the tenets of Shastras, but the True Guru knows, he is the Guru, but we do not have any such authority, to do so. Infact, personally, the two books of Sri Annamalai swami, to me, is personal diary of Sri David Godman, which he has graciously published for the benefit of others. I have immensely benefited from the study of these books, but i never really took in to quoting from these books, in exchanges, because, it is one-to-one direct conversation of Sri David Godman and Sri Annamalai Swami. It is his upanishad. Some of the quotes of Sri Annamalai Swami too, do not find confirmation in Ramana literature, in my limited knowledge. But, Guru-Leela is beyond the scope of mind. I read, that Ramanashram has stopped selling the books on Sri Annamalai Swami (not sure). I felt it may be so because, it sort of was crating a parallel Guru, which the Ashram might have had reservation, this 'reservation' that they might have had, arises from the adhering to the tenets of Veda Shastras, it prevailed upon Clarity and for overall benefit of so many devotees who come for solace and not have them sent in confusion with parallel thoughts.

Somewhere i came across perhaps in David Godman website that Munagala Venkatrammaiah took his call and omitted certain quotations from his Talks with Bhagavan, because, he would have found them to be against the tenets of Vedas, what compassion and level of sensitivity it displayes on the part of Sri Munagala. This arises from adhering to the principles of Veda Shastras, all conversations are merely personal one-to-one conversations that we see in Ramana literature, they are primarily personal teachings.



This is nothing against the person Sri Tushnim, He is my friend, :) but his expressions are not acceptable to me.

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: atmavichar100 on December 21, 2012, 09:39:45 PM
I was talking of mind fit for Self-Knowledge and the following quote of Swami Paramarthananda on one of his talks of  Sri Dakshinamurti Stotram will make it more clear .

The indication of a purified mind is radical reduction of likes and dislikes, expectation from the people and the world.A non-complaining and prepared mind can understand Vedanta.

Om Peace .
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on December 22, 2012, 06:12:52 AM
Quote
Don't make the mistake of imagining that there is a goal to be reached or attained. If you think like this you will start looking for methods to practice and people to help you.This just perpetuates the problem you are trying to end

Annamalai Swamiji is a true sage. What a clarity and what a truth. After recognising and experiencing this - not a single word of any other scripture is needed.

Sanjay
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 22, 2012, 06:40:37 AM
Sanjaya/udai/Friends,

Quote
Don't make the mistake of imagining that there is a goal to be reached or attained. If you think like this you will start looking for methods to practice and people to help you.This just perpetuates the problem you are trying to end

Quote
Annamalai Swamiji is a true sage. What a clarity and what a truth. After recognising and experiencing this - not a single word of any other scripture is needed

No doubt about annamalai swami and his saying.All that we are pointing out is this-

Do we now truly have the clarity and the experience?What is the Proof of this 'clarity and experience'?

To just keep saying-'Nowhere to go,nothing to do' means nothing.Even a Lazy person would say That.This is purely subjective and that cannot mean anything.

If we truly have 'nowhere to go and Nothing to do' it should lead to 'Noone to go anywhere or to do anything'.If there is 'noone' then everyone is oneself.Then everywhere is where one is.Any path is one's path.Any Place is one's place.

El OR empaavaai(Listen,ponder my Girl!It is the month of marghazhi and of Tiruppavai and tiruvempavai)

Namaskar.


Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 22, 2012, 08:35:58 AM
udai,

Why is annamalai Swami saying this?Very good question.This needs to be understood with Clarity and Depth.Clarity and Depth go together;otherwise Clarity will not be clarity.
What Annamalai Swami is saying is said in a different way by Sri Aurobindo:

"Our sense of personal effort and aspiration comes from the attempt of the egoistic mind to identify itself in a wrong and imperfect way with the workings of the divine Force. It persists in applying to experience on a supernormal plane the ordinary terms of mentality which it applies to its normal experiences in the world. In the world we act with the sense of egoism; we claim the universal forces that work in us as our own; we claim as the effect of our personal will, wisdom, force, virtue the selective, formative, progressive action of the Transcendent in this frame of mind, life and body. Enlightenment brings to us the knowledge that the ego is only an instrument; we begin to perceive and feel that these things are our own in the sense that they belong to our supreme and integral Self, one with the Transcendent, not to the instrumental ego. Our limitations and distortions are our contribution to the working; the true power in it is the Divine's. When the human ego realises that its will is a tool, its wisdom ignorance and childishness, its power an infant's groping, its virtue a pretentious impurity, and learns to trust itself to that which transcends it, that is its salvation. The apparent freedom and self-assertion of our personal being to which we are so profoundly attached, conceal a most pitiable subjection to a thousand suggestions, impulsions, forces which we have made extraneous to our little person. Our ego, boasting of freedom, is at every moment the slave, toy and puppet of countless beings, powers, forces, influences in universal Nature. The self-abnegation of the ego in the Divine is its self-fulfillment; its surrender to that which transcends it is its liberation from bonds and limits and its perfect freedom".

El Or empAvAi
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 22, 2012, 08:47:05 AM
udai,
Self does not need to recognize Self.(Nondual Idea)

Recognition is of the wrong way of Seeing only.Anologies only serve to point out Truth.Sadhana is required to Experience Truth.(Practical Idea)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 22, 2012, 08:50:27 AM
Udai,
You will understand if you add the dimension of Depth which is why you are only clutching at the 'Words' and Sentences'.
As long as the 'i' persists,there is no possibility of Experiencing TRuth.Carry on with your sadhana and what you have understood.
Namaskar
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: atmavichar100 on December 22, 2012, 09:01:28 AM
Quote
People think i am saying sadhana is not required. While every now and then i also say sadhana is a must ... they see that i am self contradictory. The point is sadhana is for what ? its not to attain or realize Self. its to not identify with the vasanas that I am non-Self. Thats all.

You mean Sadhana is for "not identifying with the bonding vasanas"  .Have I understood rightly?
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 22, 2012, 09:10:54 AM
Udai,
Just see that all your Specifics are needless hairsplitting.
You are saying 'Nonidentification' with the vasana;Another may say'Give up the vasana'.Each one does what is accessible to him.The Fundamental thing to note is that what is intrinsic alone is going to be intrinsic and what is extrinsic is going to be outgrown and dropped anyway.No need to then stop identifying oneself with what is dropped.
Problem lies in 'My watch alone shows Correct time'
Namaskar.

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: atmavichar100 on December 22, 2012, 09:20:06 AM
EXACTLY.

SADHANA is not to attain or Realize Self.
Having known that Self is the Awarness ... Screen on which all this is going on...
Remain unidentified with the non-self.
As Annamalai Swami Explains here :

Quote
POST 16:

pg 271-2, Living by the words of bhagavan


Quote
      Continuous inhalation and exhalation are necessary for continuation of life. Continuous meditation is necessary for all those who want to stay in the Self.
You divide your life up into different activities: "I am eating", "I am meditating", "I am working", etc. If you have ideas like these you are still identifiying with the body. Get rid of all these ideas and replace them with the single thought , "I am Self", Hold onto that idea and dont let it go. Dont give these "I am the body" ideas any attention.
"I must eat now", "I will go to sleep now", "I will have a bath now", all thoughts like these  are I am the body thoughts. Learn to recognize them when they arise and learn to ignore them or deny them. Stay firmly seated in the Self and dont allow the mind to identify with anything that the body does.  

Ok then if I need to sum up the entire spiritual journey it  is :
1) First Prepare for receiving the self knowledge through "Sadhana Chatushtaya"
2) Then receive Self Knowledge from a Guru ( through Sravanam , Mananam )
3) After receiving the Self knowledge internalize the knowledge through Niddhidayasanam which we use the term Sadhana for "Not identifying with the  binding vasanas"

So in essence there is Sadhana before Self Knowledge and Sadhana after self knowledge and for receiving the self knowledge one just needs to listen /study the scriptures under a Guru
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 22, 2012, 09:40:01 AM
udai,
You are again confusing the nondual and Dualistic viewpoints.
Now you are bringing in additional points like Meditation and samadhi,etc.This way we can never have a discussion.
Stay focussed on the point discussed.
As a Child you would have played Cricket and as you grew up you watched Cricket and as you grow older you stopped watching cricket.
All these are Experiences that belong to that stage of mental development.Now do not take the example too literally.In all these different experiences 'oneself' is central and Intrinsic.'Playing Cricket,Watching Cricket,Stop watching Cricket' -all these are extrinsic and are bound to leave one.Nothing stays with us.Now,we cannot define 'the moment' of Giving up.It may happen sooner to one,and later to someone.It may happen abruptly and utterly to someone and Gradually&intermittently to someone.
Each one is unique and hence the path he traverses is personal ,although the so called 'Goal' may be impersonal and hence not different to one and all.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: atmavichar100 on December 22, 2012, 09:50:51 AM
Quote
Very much true, with small comments:
1. Dont want for "Sadhana Chatushtayam". From my experience, I improved in them as I kept hearing guru ji. Start with Sravana. 3 takes care of any lapses in 1.
2. in (3) , you have made a typo : Not identifying with the non binding vasanas" , its not identifying with binding vasanas.

You are absolutely correct. And I stress the importance of Sravanam here which enables the others.
Annamalai Swami's talks are no less  that an upanishad for that matter.

Ok Made the change in Vasanas in my previous post .

As regards "Sravanam" ,I feel it is a big art in itself .The Art of Listening is the biggest of all arts and most difficult to practice .
In J.Krishnamurti's complete works of 17 Volumes  the first volume is titled  " The Art of Listening " .I also posted here few days back a quote "When you know how to listen ,Everybody is the Guru" .

So I agree Sravanam is very important but how competent one is in that is the big question .
I have bought 2 books  called " The Lost Art of Listening " by Micahel P Nicholas , Practicing the Sacred Art of Listening by Kay Lindhal . After reading through them only I understood how much poor we are when it comes to listening and we confuse hearing to listening .
Will share more about it later .

Om Peace
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 22, 2012, 09:56:50 AM
udai,
You are again confusing the dualistic and Nondualistic standpoints.
For Sadhana ,a Goal is required.When Swami is saying there is 'no Goal' he is referring to the fact that it is not something extrinsic to oneself.One need not imagine it and run after the imagined.
If you see Tim 's video on annamalai Swami,he clearly mentions how he experienced a 'coolness'(kulirchi in Tamizh)referring to his chest in the middle.This sort of a pointing to a definitive experience is indeed required,as the seeker then knows that he is moving in the Right direction.Not just this,it acts as an incentive and automatically makes him drop all that has to be dropped;rather they drop away!No need to 'Stop identifying'!

'Ultimately'-Is this not Hypothetical?It is as if saying that one should eat the 'Last Banana' right at the outset.That would have obviated the need in wasting time in eating the previous Bananas!
May be there is no 'Ultimate' at all!
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: atmavichar100 on December 22, 2012, 10:02:03 AM
Quote
If I listen to Osho or JK ... I will be left searching in loops.
jk confuses people a lot ... unnecessarily, in my opinion.

 :)
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 22, 2012, 10:02:44 AM
Udai/Friends,

Quote
"jk confuses people a lot"

Translation:I am unable to understand what He says.I get confused reading him.

"Annamalai Swami would solve the problem once and for all"

Translation:His words tally with what I experience.I Okay him.

Namaskar.

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 22, 2012, 10:06:00 AM
Udai/Friends,

Quote
"Dont want for "Sadhana Chatushtayam". From my experience, I improved in them as I kept hearing guru ji. Start with Sravana."

Translation:My Experience is universal.Others can take it as a Reference.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 22, 2012, 10:15:31 AM
udai,
No,i have not deviated from the Topic.I will post once more:
Quote
udai,
You are again confusing the dualistic and Nondualistic standpoints.
For Sadhana ,a Goal is required.When Swami is saying there is 'no Goal' he is referring to the fact that it is not something extrinsic to oneself.One need not imagine it and run after the imagined.
If you see Tim 's video on annamalai Swami,he clearly mentions how he experienced a 'coolness'(kulirchi in Tamizh)referring to his chest in the middle.This sort of a pointing to a definitive experience is indeed required,as the seeker then knows that he is moving in the Right direction.Not just this,it acts as an incentive and automatically makes him drop all that has to be dropped;rather they drop away!No need to 'Stop identifying'!

'Ultimately'-Is this not Hypothetical?It is as if saying that one should eat the 'Last Banana' right at the outset.That would have obviated the need in wasting time in eating the previous Bananas!
May be there is no 'Ultimate' at all!
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: atmavichar100 on December 22, 2012, 10:21:51 AM
Dear Atmavichar,
     :)

Quote
Ok then if I need to sum up the entire spiritual journey it  is :
1) First Prepare for receiving the self knowledge through "Sadhana Chatushtaya"
2) Then receive Self Knowledge from a Guru ( through Sravanam , Mananam )
3) After receiving the Self knowledge internalize the knowledge through Niddhidayasanam which we use the term Sadhana for "Not identifying with the non binding vasanas"



Very much true, with small comments:
1. Dont want for "Sadhana Chatushtayam". From my experience, I improved in them as I kept hearing guru ji. Start with Sravana. 3 takes care of any lapses in 1.
2. in (3) , you have made a typo : Not identifying with the non binding vasanas" , its not identifying with binding vasanas.

You are absolutely correct. And I stress the importance of Sravanam here which enables the others.
Annamalai Swami's talks are no less  that an upanishad for that matter.

For me though I  have given up lot of external activities ,still I feel I am not yet prepared for the "direct way to direct Path " and use the traditional methodology for self knowledge .As I said interest is one thing , commitment is another .While I do have interest in Jnana Marga , my samskaras are more in Yoga marga and it will have to be followed till it takes a natural shift to Jnana Marga .
Anyway thanks for your inputs .
Om Peace .
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 22, 2012, 10:26:38 AM
Udai/Friends,

Quote
"Dont want for "Sadhana Chatushtayam". From my experience, I improved in them as I kept hearing guru ji. Start with Sravana."

Translation:My Experience is universal.Others can take it as a Reference.

Sri Ravi, that is how it sounds to me as well. :)

"Only if a man gets a command from God,
after realizing Him, is he entitled to teach."

"Again, the worldly man is like a snake trying to swallow a mole. The snake can neither swallow the mole nor
give it up. The bound soul may have realized that there is no substance to the world-that the world is like a
hog plum, only stone and skin-but still he cannot give it up and turn his mind to God.

"One day as I was passing the Panchavati on my way to the pine-grove, I heard a bullfrog croaking. I thought
it must have been seized by a snake. After some time, as I was coming back, I could still hear its terrified
croaking. I looked to see what was the matter, and found that a water-snake had seized it. The snake could
neither swallow it nor give it up. So there was no end to the frog's suffering. I thought that had it been
seized by a cobra it would have been silenced after three croaks at the most. As it was only a water-snake,
both of them had to go through this agony. A man's ego is destroyed after three croaks, as it were, if he gets
into the clutches of a real teacher. But if the teacher is an 'unripe' one, then both the teacher and the disciple
undergo endless suffering. The disciple cannot get rid either of his ego or of the shackles of the world. If a
disciple falls into the clutches of an incompetent teacher, he doesn't attain liberation."


- The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

only creates confusion, for oneself and others.

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 22, 2012, 10:31:55 AM
All the great struggle by Sri Tushnim in his elucidations of truth, indirectly aspires to announce his enlightenment, in the guise of suggestions and pointers, that is the hidden motive as i see, may be from my own glasses, one may say! i had to express.

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 22, 2012, 10:33:53 AM
Udai,
Do not use annamalai swami as a Proxy.We are not discussing annamalai swami.My comment refers to your saying there is 'No Goal' and using Annamalai Swami's statements as a Reference.Swami is quite clear in what he is saying and I have clearly indicated what he means.
It is you who are creating this confusion in coming up with a 'No Goal' theory and at the same time saying 'Sadhana is required'.
It hardly matters whether one defines the 'Objective' of the Sadhana as a Goal or as a 'Measure'.It is needless hairsplitting and this is the result of too much reading of the scriptures.
To say that one has to Get rid of 'Suffering' is the same as to say One has to attain 'happiness'.One may say that attainment of Happiness is the Goal or Objective of Sadhana.
The Very fact that one has to do sadhana means that 'Happiness' is not yet attained!Period.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 22, 2012, 10:39:50 AM
udai,
Do start that Asramam;you have My Blessings!I already have a sannyasa name for you:Sri Sri Swami Sastrananda :)
I will ensure that Lotus flowers are offered at your feet as pada puja.
 
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 22, 2012, 10:51:08 AM
udai,
Happiness is essential and not optional.The Goal is already built into our firmware.There is a difference between Hunger and artificial appetite.It is the artifice that has to Be dropped.The Search for happiness(sadhana)is intrinsic.It is not something that one can turn 'On' or 'Off'.If one can do that,that means that 'Sadhana' is something arbitrary and optional-and this means that one has to wait until 'Hunger' is felt for the natural Sadhana to take place.Until then,one may have no option but to continue to debate and discuss endlessly in Forums and carry on adinfinitum.
Namaskar
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: atmavichar100 on December 22, 2012, 11:29:08 AM
Dear Atmavichar,
     :) Sravanam should be helping you there as well.
Just keep hearing from Parmarthananda ji.
While you listen: Have the Attitude that he is Ramana teaching you.
Hear with such an attitude.
To parmarthananda ji's teachings ...
and see what happens.

this is my suggestion. It works for most of our friends here.
But not many can hear Parmarthananda ji with the attitude that
Ramana himself is teaching.

Vedanta is a pramana ... means of knowledge. When you expose yourself
to it from a proper person who knows how to apply it ... you see the
difference.

This is my suggestion ... I have no Pramana to convince you, than to tell you
to verify it yourself. Listen to entire BG with that attitude and see yourself.

Like even ... Eyes see ... how do i convince you ... open the eyes and see.
thats all.
Sure Tushnim ,after a long gap ,I have restarted to listen to Swami Paramarthananda's talks and I enjoy it very much .
Well I do not want to bring Ramana while listening to him  :)
Bhagwan Ramana has his own flavor while conveying his answers to people's doubts and Swami Paramarthananda has his own flavor of conveying "Self Knowledge"  and Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa ,  Swami Sivananda , Kanchi Paramacharya , Sringeri Acharya ,etc have their own way of conveying the truth .
As I said in one of my earlier post : Sanathana Dharma is rich with these wide variety of Great men and their teachings and I enjoy everyone of them .
But personally  among Living persons I resonate more with Swami Paramarthananda and more than that I have personal access to him to clear any doubts with regard to Advaita Vedanta and other matters connected to Sanathana Dharma .
Om Peace .
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 22, 2012, 03:26:14 PM
udai,
This is what Sri Ramakrishna says:
"When the log burns, it makes a crackling noise and one sees the flame. But when the burning is over and only ash remains, then no more noise is heard. Thirst disappears
with the destruction of attachment. Finally comes peace.
"The nearer you come to God, the more you feel peace. Peace, peace, peace-supreme peace! The nearer you come to the Ganges, the more you feel its coolness. You will feel
completely soothed when you plunge into the river."

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Ravi.N on December 23, 2012, 08:37:24 AM
udai,

Quote
" then no more noise is heard"
 :) He meant stop hearing [and searching for noise] ;)  :D LOL! 

Yes,he also means to stop seeing too many varieties of smileys and LOL!(LOL-Silence needs to temper this as well)

---just suggesting. :)

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Beloved Abstract on December 23, 2012, 06:21:14 PM
 ::)
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 27, 2012, 08:00:06 PM
Quote
no need to eliminate the ghosts. Like a child goes to its mother, go to a Guru, rest will be taken care. We are not asked to do anything external

Why did Lord Krishna waste 18 chapters? He could have just told Arjuna "go to a guru and rest will be taken care" :).

For clarity of thread, i present my complete sentence as provided by you in the above quote:

Quote
no need to eliminate the ghosts. Like a child goes to its mother, go to a Guru, rest will be taken care. We are not asked to do anything external, in this case, we are already acquainted with the teachings of Bhagavan and therefore we are asked to enquire, who is it that wants to eliminate the ghosts, nothing else.

:)
Sri Sanjay, kindly see again, nothing has been conveyed that is not in line of teachings of Bhagavan.

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 27, 2012, 08:07:24 PM
Sri Tushnim,

new forum policing :D buddy, your locking the topic was i felt misplaced.

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on December 27, 2012, 08:09:50 PM
Quote
Sri Sanjay, kindly see again, nothing has been conveyed that is not in line of teachings of Bhagavan.

Sir - I never contested that. Please tell me whether you came to know of Bhagawan's teachings in deep sleep or in waking state for the FIRST TIME - THE FIRST STEP? That will answer what I was trying to convey - does not need any more explanations.

Sanjay
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 27, 2012, 08:16:18 PM
Quote
Sri Sanjay, kindly see again, nothing has been conveyed that is not in line of teachings of Bhagavan.

Sir - I never contested that. Please tell me whether you came to know of Bhagawan's teachings in deep sleep or in waking state for the FIRST TIME - THE FIRST STEP? That will answer what I was trying to convey - does not need any more explanations.

i don't get what you are conveying, Sri Sanjay.

But, what i would like to say is this, what is important is, who is it that came to know, pursuing with That alone constitutes the Self Enquiry. That is all was being conveyed.

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: atmavichar100 on December 27, 2012, 08:29:36 PM
Sri Tushnim,

new forum policing :D buddy, your locking the topic was i felt misplaced.


I am surprised that Tushnim himself got quite overwhelmed with the arguments in the other thread to such an extent that he locked it  :)
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: ramana_maharshi on December 27, 2012, 10:04:18 PM
if long debates are really problamatic then i wonder if adi sankara garu did not supress his ego as most of the time he was in long debates.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on December 28, 2012, 06:49:13 AM
Quote
i don't get what you are conveying, Sri Sanjay.

Nagaraj garu

I am not competent to convey the point :) - but this is not my point either. So I suggest you kindly listen to Sri Nochur talk on Bhakti Yoga where he in depth talks about importance of Intellect behind Bhakthi and how Bhakthi without intellect can ruin you. I am incompetent to convey as good as Sri Nochur. Wish you all the very best.

Sanjay
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 28, 2012, 08:13:49 AM
and how Bhakthi without intellect can ruin you.

??  :o

Thanks for your wishes Sri Sanjay :) but i feel, contrary to what you have expressed. How can one go near God, who keeps Intellect ahead of God itself?

Only when one drops ones intelligence can one realise the ambrosia, it is nothing through intellect, that one gets anything, ones intelligence is nothing before that which is, what ever one realises or discerns is only because of 'That' alone and never by ones own intelligence, intellect.

Wishing you best too, Sri Sanjay,

with prayers,

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on December 28, 2012, 08:20:29 AM
Quote
what ever one realises or discerns is only because of 'That' alone and never by ones own intelligence, intellect.

:) You mean intelligence does not belong to 'That' ? What is 'One's own intelligence' - I dont understand that at all? I thought all intelligence is from 'That' alone and 'That' gave you intelligence to use it to find a path to 'That'.

Anyways, let me leave it here. Perhaps, I dont understand Nochur Acharya as much as you have, Nagaraj Garu. I listened to him umpteen times and re-listened yesterday again those specific areas where he says this explicitly - no confusion, very explicit words (It is in Malayalam and so I cannot post it here - in very simple straight words). But since you "dont think he said that", I perhaps need lot more listening to reach that level. Hope to reach there some day :). Perhaps, meaning of my words got twisted a lot  - so let us leave it there :). I never ever said "keep intellect ahead of God as you wrote" :). I said use it to kick start. "Kick start"...

Sanjay
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 28, 2012, 08:33:56 AM
'That' gave you intelligence to use it to find a path to 'That'.

Who is the 'you' you are referring to? Who is it that utilises to find a path? who is it that finds the path to 'That' :)

Anyways, let me leave it here. Perhaps, I dont understand Nochur Acharya as much as you have, Nagaraj Garu. I listened to him umpteen times and re-listened yesterday again those specific areas where he says this explicitly - no confusion, very explicit words (It is in Malayalam and so I cannot post it here - in very simple straight words). Perhaps, I need lot more listening to reach your level. Looking forward to that...

Sri Sanjay, please don't allow emotion to take hold of you.

Sri Sanjay,

you are contradicting your own observations. Kindly introspect your past observations -

Bhakthi without intellect can ruin you.

Quote
Bhakti comes because you have intellect  - else all animals would have bhakti


Cow Lakshmi showed Bhakti unparaled. Karuppan Dog, Monkeys, so many instances, please read Gajendra Moksha, Hanuman...

Quote
If intellect has no role to play, it must be very easy for animals (esp. donkey ) to be self realized most quickly. Why is that not happening? It has no intellect or mind to interfere in the process

Whose intellect were you talking about then? Was it not yours? the general voice was that, without intellect, one cannot progress.

as lready expressed, In the line of teachings of Bhagavan, first show the intellect or find the intellect, then we can see who is getting bashings

with prayers,

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on December 28, 2012, 08:44:48 AM
Dear Nagaraj

I have no emotional approach :) - so never worry about it that way - in fact, people around me feel bad that I am like a stone with no emotions :) . Whatever I say is not because of "emotions" :). So dont worry.

Anyways, since the topic is all twisted and turned around - I wish to stop here. I dont like to get into un-necessary arguments that dont help us move forward. So let us just focus on how we can move forward from where we are - does not matter what we use for that - since everything you and I use belongs to Supreme anyway (hope there is no argument there).

Sanjay
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: atmavichar100 on December 28, 2012, 08:58:30 AM
Dear Nagaraj

I have no emotional approach :) - so never worry about it that way - in fact, people around me feel bad that I am like a stone with no emotions :) . Whatever I say is not because of "emotions" :). So dont worry.

Anyways, since the topic is all twisted and turned around - I wish to stop here. I dont like to get into un-necessary arguments that dont help us move forward. So let us just focus on how we can move forward from where we are - does not matter what we use for that - since everything you and I use belongs to Supreme anyway (hope there is no argument there).

Sanjay

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZXkWKFzPSZE/UA5RQMgFAeI/AAAAAAAAAdM/lEew09pDhBQ/s400/black%2Band%2Bwhite%2B2.jpg)
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on December 28, 2012, 09:11:02 AM
Good one, sir :)
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 28, 2012, 09:11:38 AM
I have no emotional approach :) - so never worry about it that way - in fact, people around me feel bad that I am like a stone with no emotions :) . Whatever I say is not because of "emotions" :). So dont worry.

Where intellect resides in place of Heart, stone is bound to be found. my pointer to you not to allow emotion take hold of you was at your own post, which was certainly not in good fervor.

Anyways, let me leave it here. Perhaps, I dont understand Nochur Acharya as much as you have, Nagaraj Garu. I listened to him umpteen times and re-listened yesterday again those specific areas where he says this explicitly - no confusion, very explicit words (It is in Malayalam and so I cannot post it here - in very simple straight words). Perhaps, I need lot more listening to reach your level. Looking forward to that...

oki, stopping with here!

prayers,

Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on December 28, 2012, 09:14:22 AM
Thank you for the enlightening discussion, Nagaraj garu.

Sanjay.
Title: Re: Common Discussion
Post by: Nagaraj on December 28, 2012, 09:17:26 AM
Thank you for the enlightening discussion, Nagaraj garu.

Instead It would help, if enquiry is pursued as to who is that that is Thanking for an enlightening discussion!!

Thanks.