The Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

Ramana Maharshi => The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi => Topic started by: srkudai on April 18, 2012, 08:32:29 PM

Title: DELETED.
Post by: srkudai on April 18, 2012, 08:32:29 PM
DELETED.
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Nagaraj on April 18, 2012, 08:44:03 PM
Dear i,

Before, we need to understand, what understanding really means. What do we mean when we say, 'understanding'

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Hari on April 18, 2012, 09:44:00 PM
It's the same as the Biblical ʾEhyeh ʾašer ʾEhyeh - I am that I am. Tat is "I AM", tvam is "I am". Can you intellectually to know who you are? Being is beyond thinking. "I AM" is the pure being. There there is no mind. So we cannot understand what that Sacred phrases "Ehyeh ʾašer ʾEhyeh" and "Tat tvam asi" mean.

Bhagavan has given many examples but not to show us the Beingness but to show us the way to It. The Beingness cannot be explained. Can you describe a color of a blind man?
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Ravi.N on April 18, 2012, 10:06:43 PM
Friends,
Talk 321:
D.: If I turn to look who I am I do not find anything.
M.: How did you remain in your sleep? There was no ‘I-thought’ there and
you were happy. Whereas there are thoughts flowering in the wake of
the root-thought ‘I’ in the jagrat and these hide the inherent happiness.
Get rid of these thoughts which are the obstacles to happiness. Your
natural state is one of happiness as was evident in your sleep.
D.: I do not know anything of my sleep experience.
M.: But you know that it was happiness. Otherwise you would not be
saying “I slept happily”; When there is no thought, no ‘I’, and nothing
in fact except yourself, you are happy. That is the whole Truth.
This is exactly what is conveyed by the Mahavakya Tatvamasi (You
are That)
. Find your Self: and then “That” is known.
D.: How is that Brahman?
M.: Why do you want to know of Brahman apart from yourself? The
scripture says “You are That”. The Self is intimate to you and you
cannot indeed be without the Self. Realise it. That is the Realisation
of Brahman also.
D.: But I am unable to do it. I am too weak to realise my Self.
M.: In that case surrender yourself unreservedly and the Higher Power
will reveal Itself.
D.: What is unconditional surrender?
M.: If one surrenders oneself there will be no one to ask questions or
to be thought of. Either the thoughts are eliminated by holding on
to the root-thought ‘I’ or one surrenders oneself unconditionally to
the Higher Power. These are the only two ways for Realisation
.

Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Ravi.N on April 18, 2012, 10:35:30 PM
Friends,
Talk 332.
D.: What are the three voids (Muppazh)  in Tamil?
M.: (1) Tat = Isvara turiya.
(2) tvam = jiva turiya.
(3) asi = asi turiya.
Turiya is the substratum of the waking, dream and sleep states.
D.: The first two are all right; what is the third?
M.: All-pervasiveness is said to be the waking;
all-shining is said to be the dream;
perfection (ananta) is said to be the sleep;
that which underlies these is asi-turiya.
D.: It is so strange!
M.: Is that all? There is no limit to polemics. Listen, They say the
mahavakya Tattvamasi is common; another containing five words Tat
tvam asi ati nijam is the most secret one taught by Dakshinamurti in
Silence; corresponding to the five words they formulate five states.
Again look at Vichara Sagara; the author distinguishes adhara
from adhishthana. According to him the rope is always adhara
both when it looks like a snake and otherwise. The rope is
adhishthana because it looks different from what it really is: that
is common (samanya adhishthana). Again its appearance as the
snake itself is visesha adhishthana. Then the question is raised:
the adhishthana of Jiva is one; that of Isvara is another; how can
these two adhishthanas become one? He replies, there is the same
adhara for both the adhishthanas.
Furthermore he mentions several khyatis;
(1) asat-khyati: rope being present, there appears the snake which
is not present there.
(2) sat-khyati: rope itself looking like snake.
(3) atma-khyati: rope remaining unidentified, the remembrance of
snake, formerly seen elsewhere, creates the illusion.
(4) akhyati: totally unreal.
(5) anayatha-khyati: mental image of snake projected and seen as
if it were in front of oneself.
(6) anirvachaniya-khyati: inexplicable.
Here he raises the question: Should the world be any one of these,
whether illusory or unreal; it must be the result of previous experience.
It must have been real at that time: real once, must be real always.
He answers it: the experience need not necessarily be real; not having
seen a real snake, but only seeing a picture of it and gaining an impression,
one can mistake a rope to be a snake. Thus the world need not be real.
Why waste time in such polemics? Only turn your mind inward
and spend the time usefully
.

Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi

Why is Yukti called for?To end speculation and bring in Sraddha.Then sravana ,manana ,Niddhidyasana is resorted to.Sravana is to listen completely,manana is to reflect not on the words but on the essence,and Niddhidyasana is to dwell as the Essence.
One who has Sraddha need not roam in the wilderness of commentaries -Sabda jAlam Maharanyam.He just contemplates Rama.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Ravi.N on April 19, 2012, 07:13:00 AM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Now Sri Ramakrishna spoke to the young brahmin.
MASTER: "Give up knowledge and reasoning; accept bhakti. Bhakti alone is the essence.
Is this the third day of your stay here?"
BRAHMIN (with folded hands): "Yes, sir."
MASTER: "Have faith. Depend on God. Then you will not have to do anything yourself.
Mother Kali will do everything for you.
"Jnana goes as far as the outer court, but bhakti can enter the inner court. The Pure Self is
unattached. Both vidya and avidya are in It, but It is unattached. Sometimes there is a good
and sometimes a bad smell in the air, but the air itself is unaffected.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Ravi.N on April 19, 2012, 07:16:42 AM
udai,
I have posted excerpts from sri Ramakrishna and sri Bhagavan.I understand that you are eager to say something.Please go ahead and express yourself.I will listen to what you have to say.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on April 19, 2012, 08:05:44 AM
Quote
"Jnana goes as far as the outer court, but bhakti can enter the inner court.


Very true, Ravi sir indeed. In other words, when you say Bhakti, to what / whom is your bhakti. It certainly cannot be to something with hands and legs etc. Lord himself says in Gita (sorry - I am not a great quoter :) and so dont recall the verse - can someone help me?) that those who see me as one with these hands and legs are "mooda" (fools). So what is it that you will have Bhakti on without Jnana. Very true indeed. Cannot agree more with thsi statement.

Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on April 19, 2012, 12:10:37 PM
Friends - Nice debate. Since Swami Vivekananda is quoted so often - I would like to state something I read sometime back (No source to quote :(). Ramakrishna Bhagawan himself once told someone who asked him that Vivekananda is so different from him running all over trying to rebuild world. Paramahamsa replied that Vivekananda is only at the door step and he has not stepped in, the moment he "Steps in" - he will stop everything and drop dead. And apparently some scholars claim, Swami Vivekandan became enlightened 2-3 days before his death in reality exactly as what Sri Ramakrishna Bhagawan said.
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Ravi.N on April 19, 2012, 12:19:12 PM
udai,
I have nothing to say.Please carry on.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Ravi.N on April 19, 2012, 01:54:41 PM
Friends,
An Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Sri Ramakrishna said to M.: "I have observed that a man
acquires one kind of knowledge about God through reasoning and another kind through
meditation; but he acquires a third kind of Knowledge about God when God reveals
Himself to him"

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 19, 2012, 03:00:46 PM

There is a student who goes to a guru. The guru first says:
Consciousness is Brahman - Prajnanam Brahma.

Having established that Brahman is identical with consciousness, the student would want to know of what relevance
or benefit is this knowledge to him. However, the student continues to contemplate on this.

The guru than invokes the second Mahavakya and says,'This Self is Brahman.' Ayam atma Brahma'.

This is to impress upon the student that Brahman is the very nature of the Self and is not something far away.   However,
the student may still be doubtful. He thinks that it is only the teacher, because of teacher's knowledge and wisdom, who
is Brahman.

The student continues to exhort the teacher to tell him his true nature. The teacher then assures the student, by way of
third mahavakya You are That - Tat tvam asi,

After this assurance, the student would have to take the necessary spiritual disciplines to realize that in essence he too is Brahman.

Now the intellect can go only up to this.

While the first two could be comprehended intellectually, the third one requires experience.   All the sadhanas are only to
make the mind sattva and not for experiencing Tat Tvam Asi.

Tat tvam asi comes where the intellect stops working and in the state of stillness, the student begins to   EXPERIENCE Tat Tvam Asi.

The experience finally reveals to him; I am Brahman, Aham Brahmasmi.


Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Ravi.N on April 19, 2012, 05:45:02 PM
Udai,
What do you want to say?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Ravi.N on April 19, 2012, 06:01:11 PM
udai,
I have read that .What next?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 19, 2012, 06:06:57 PM
Dear srkudai,

If all Mahavakyas are one and the same, why there should be four mahavaykyas?  Think over.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Nagaraj on April 19, 2012, 06:19:37 PM
Dear i,

 :)

Such talk as this Is like discussing the harvest in storage Before the seeds have been sown.

Pure Consciousness is beyond Both generalizations and particular statements; It remains ever content in Itself.

After such a discourse, That speech is wise Which drinks deeply of silence.

It can be seen That the various methods of proof Have accepted their own unprovability; And analogies have solemnly declared Their inability to represent the Reality.

The various arguments have dissolved themselves Because of their own invalidity, And the assembly of definitions has dispersed.

All of the various means, Having proved futile, have departed; And the experience itself Has abandoned its object.

Thought, along with its intent, Has died, Like a courageous warrior In the cause of his master;

And understanding, Ashamed of its own mode of knowing, Has committed suicide. The experience−abandoned to itself alone−Is like one beaten and crippled in battle.

When the crust Of a piece of talc is peeled off, The talk itself disappears.

If a plantain tree, troubled by the heat, Casts off its outer layers, How shall it stand erect?

Experience depends on the existence Of the experienced and the experiencer. When both of these vanish, Can the experience alone experience itself?

Of what use are words When even the experience Dissolves itself in this way?

How can words describe the supreme Reality Where even the subtlest speech itself disappears, And there is left no trace of sound?

Truly, there is neither bondage nor freedom; There is nothing to be accomplished. There is only the pleasure of expounding.

(Jnaneshwar)

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 19, 2012, 06:21:51 PM

Dear Nagaraj,

So also says Gaudapada: there is no mukti, there is no mukta; there is no bondage; there is no bandha. All are Sivam.
Even Jiva is a kalpitam.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 19, 2012, 06:43:54 PM
Dear srkudai,

Kindly read the book Tat tvam asi by Paul Y.F. Loke who studied under the Pandits who worked in Kanchi Math for 7 years. Sri
Chandrasekhara Saraswati Swami has given him doctorate for this book through his Viswa Maha Vidyalaya, Enathuoor, a deemed
University.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Ravi.N on April 19, 2012, 07:07:30 PM
udai,
 :)
The Mother has already given herself to us. only we seek something else.
That i do not need anything else can be understood through reasoning. That Mother is already tehre with me should be got through reasoning. Coz mother is already presenting herself to us. she is here. now. only we reject that coz we want some form to appear. we want some image ... someone sitting on lion should appear. that kind of exotic preconditions are there. these can be eliminated by reasoning ! and one remains as That


Who is the 'we' you are deferring to? :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Nagaraj on April 19, 2012, 07:09:45 PM
Dear i,

:) allow yourself to be, no need to judge yourself :)

this too shall pass...

what is there about agreeing, disagreeing, both are nothing...

There is no gaining or losing for the self by our agreeing or disagreeing. The Self is neither hidden by our ignorance or gets revealed by our knowledge. Neither the agree-er, nor the disagree-er gain anything out of their agreeing or disagreeing.

My only observation is the one who is discerning all these, That ought to be inquired, and, not its discernment, that needs to be looked in to.

The 'i' which raises its objections, or its consent, itself alone needs to be meditated, and not its consents or objections, not what it sees, by way of discernment, not what it approves or disapproves. The discernment may be very beautiful, but it is nothing.

The Cow, drops its dung, which is of great use, full of manure and minerals, but of what use is it for the cow itself?

:)

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Can TAT TVAM ASI Be Understood Intellectually ?
Post by: Nagaraj on April 19, 2012, 07:26:27 PM
       :) The self does not inquire either ;)

so, who is it that inquires? what does it got to inquire? his inquiry is like this -

A knife may be able to pierce Anything in the four quarters; But can that knife pierce itself?

The tip of the tongue is very good For tasting different herbs and seasonings; But can it taste itself?

Knowledge could know itself If a mirror could reflect itself To itself

Being Knowledge itself, He does not know how to know Himself. It is as hard as it would be For the eye to perceive itself.

It is certain that eyesight Cannot perceive itself, That taste cannot taste itself, That a person who is awake

Is it possible, even for the Creator, To stand before Himself without a mirror?

If Shiva is angry, He may burn the three worlds; But will he burn fire also?

he has to give up...

this is what jnaneshwar says -

Thought, along with its intent, Has died, Like a courageous warrior In the cause of his master;

And understanding, Ashamed of its own mode of knowing, Has committed suicide. The experience−abandoned to itself alone−Is like one beaten and crippled in battle.

all Sadhana is all about working out our பிடிவாதம் (pidivaadam - persistence, obstinacy) we, children will have to give up our persistence, obstinacy. Sadhana is not gain some knowledge or attain some thing. Sadhana is to give up. Understanding is giving up. Its like giving up straightening the dogs tail!

Repose :)

Salutations to Bhagavan