The Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

Ramana Maharshi => The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi => Topic started by: eranilkumarsinha on April 06, 2012, 02:39:22 PM

Title: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 06, 2012, 02:39:22 PM
                                                     OM NAMO BHAGWATE SRI RAMANAYA

Dear Devotees,

Sri Bhagwan says:
“It is enough that one surrenders oneself. Surrender is to give oneself up to the original cause of one’s being. Do not delude yourself by imagining such source to be some God outside you. One’s source is within yourself. Give yourself up to it. That means that you should seek the source and merge in it. “
                                                                                                                     Talk—208

We should note here that Sri Bhagwan says that only because we think or imagine ourselves to be out of It that we raise the question, “Whence are we? or, where is the source?”

Sri Muruganar, the great poet and devotee, sings:
“Be aware that the two paths of jnana and bhakti are inseparably related. Therefore, without separating one from the other through the delusion that they are different, practice both simultaneously and harmoniously in your heart.”
                                                                                         V-731, GVK, Edited by Sri David Godmam

 Sri Muruganar says that the claim that, out of these two i. e. Bhakti and Jnana, one is the means to the other, is due to simply not knowing the nature of either.

Thank you,
     Anil                                                 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 06, 2012, 02:54:24 PM
Dear Anil,

Sri Bhagavan, when He speaks of surrender, He keeps a very high standard for surrender.  The total surrender means that there
is no ego in you and all that happens in life is God's.  He used to say in Tamizh Nin ishtam, en ishtam.  Your wish is my wish.

In self inquiry, the ego is jettisoned first and then Self is realized. In surrender the ego is kept for sometime during initial periods
of bhakti and prayers. Finally the ego is surrender and everything becomes God's will.
At that stage, both inquiry and surrender become the same.  One can practice both simultaneously.

There are two types of karmas. Vihita karma - daily routine. Nishita karma - that which is prohibited. The Vihita karma by itself
will not produce any good results. But not doing it will divert your attention to nishita karmas, like watching TV for hours together,
futile chit chatting, reading unwanted books, etc., etc., If you are bound by vihita karma like sandhya, prayers, etc., all through the
day, then you will have no time for Nishita karmas.  Finally when total surrender takes place, vihita karmas also drop away.

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 06, 2012, 05:24:56 PM
Very subtly discerning, it is a blemish-less understanding that there is really nothing to surrender really. There is really no ego to surrender, it is the seeing as being, the ego or mind, hung its head on shame before the its own self, and remaining in constant awareness of this truth, always. Here, one will see the impossibility of surrendering! What is really ours to surrender? It is a realisation or blemish less discernment that we are by default surrendered already and any effort on our part to surrender is contrary to surrendering.

Which is why the english word 'Surrender' is quite different when compared to Sharanagati (as rightly observed by Sri Ravi elsewhere)

Sharanagati is something like perhaps like the JK lingo, "choiceless and effortless"

Note: But, this discernment, will make sense only to the ripe ones, who have sought the nature of their self very dearly.

Bhagavan says -

All talk of surrender is like stealing sugar from a sugar image of Ganesha and then offering it to the same Ganesha. You say that you offer up your body and soul and all your possessions to God, but were they yours to offer? At best you can say: ‘I wrongly imagined till now that all these, which are Yours, were mine. Now I realise that they are Yours and I shall no longer act as though they were mine.’ And this knowledge that there is nothing but God or the Self, that ‘I’ and ‘mine’ do not exist and that only the Self exists, is Jnana.

I read in newspaper today, quote from Chandogya Upanishad:

Man, in truth, is himself a sacrifice.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 06, 2012, 05:38:38 PM

Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,
                               Pranam,

Ji. Yes. Thank you so much, sir. But, then, even Investigation, to begin with, is launched by the ego. It is appropriate to remember here:
“THE ‘I’ CASTS THE ILLUSION OF ‘I’ AND YET REMAINS AS ‘I’. SUCH IS THE PARSDOX OF SELF-REALISATION.”
But the realised, says Sri Bhagwan, do not see any paradox or any contradiction in it.

So also, I first approach God and prays for His Lotus Feet, keeping the ego intact, as you said. Then I pray to be absorbed in Him. I then surrender myself with faith and concentrate on Him. What happens? Sri Bhagwan says that in course of time partial surrender will lead to complete surrender. Therefore, complete and surrender or the highest form of devotion leaves a residuum of God in which the ego-‘I’ is completely lost or annihilated.

Be it enquiry or surrender, what is important to understand and assimilate, in my view, is the statement of Sri Bhagwan that the ego has its source from the Self and, therefore, it must be retraced in order that it might merge in its source.
“The centre of the ego and its core is called Heart, the same as the Self.”

Dear sir, having come to Sri Bhagwan, we at least must be aware that Jnana and Bhakti, indeed, are inseparably related and, therefore, we should practice both simultaneously and harmoniously in our heart. Separating one from the other as if they are different is the delusion, says the great poet-saint Sri Muruganar.
Regards.
   Anil






Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 06, 2012, 05:49:47 PM
Dear Anil,

Muruganar was gazed by Sri Bhagavan, when He took him to collect leaves for the leaf plate. There He gazed at Muruganar
and Muruganar's ego was completely vanquished and he attained Atma Bodha. How he remained a bhakta to Sri Bhagavan
and wrote about 30000 verses glorifying Sri Bhagavan's greatness in various aspects. Muruganar was a standing example as
to how a Jnani could also be a great bhakta.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: nonduel on April 06, 2012, 06:02:09 PM
The question of surrender is one of the most frequently discussed.

There is only the Self, so who surrenders, and what is surrendered?
There is no free will (read the thread on this), so who decides?

The only thing that "we" can freely "do" is to let the ego, the personality, do what it was "programmed" to do (vasanas). Even more so because it has no free choice!

Isn't ironic to put so much effort in what cannot be change through effort?

When we switch our attention to the self (self-enquiry), we are then surrendering the outer "reality"
When we stop to question our "progress" or lack of it.
When we stop to listen to the mind. When we look at all events as being the play of maya and that we are only a witness.
When we stop all effort and just stay in beingness.

Then we are surrendering. It's an absolute "letting go" with the Bhavana, the conviction that we are and always were the Self.

What can "we" really surrender in non-duality?

All effort can only be for the ego, the mind. And in doing so, in trying to do so, aren't we confirming our belief the we are the body?

BE STILL!
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 06, 2012, 06:22:25 PM
Quote
There is no free will (read the thread on this), so who decides?

The only thing that "we" can freely "do" is to let the ego, the personality, do what it was "programmed" to do (vasanas). Even more so because it has no free choice!

Something to be added. Complete surrender means that there is no one to has will. That's why it cannot be "done" by will, free or not. Complete surrender is not by will but by Grace.

Quote
When we switch our attention to the self (self-enquiry), we are then surrendering the outer "reality"
When we stop to question our "progress" or lack of it.

What I think is that Surrender and Self-inquiry are one and the same. In Surrender you "let go" your thoughts to the Lord. In Self-inquiry you "let go" your thought in the process of inquiry. So the important thing is to "let go" your thought and to be what you are. But no matter what is your path, the so called "liberation" is by the Grace of God (Guru). Whithout the Grace everything is immaterial.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 06, 2012, 07:31:15 PM
Dear nonduel,

You are putting the cart  before the horse.  Ego is there. To say that it is not there, is only to fool ourself. Ego
is very much there, and so the duality also remains TILL ONE MERGES WITH THAT ONE, wherafter all duality vanishes.
This moment of merger takes place only when we do Self attention and find the source of the ego, or jettison the
ego and tell God that You only are there and not Me.

To say that all is One and where is 'we' - is all not for sadhakas. Sadhakas start from Class 1. To teach Mathematics of
higher class will confuse him. Let us therefore say, there is ego and tell him, how to conquer it.

If there is no ego at all, why should Sri Bhagavan say in His last verse of Sad Darsanam, = the destruction of the ego-form
is Mukti."?

Ego is there. For you, for me, for Nagaraj, and all others. When does it come out - no one knows. It may show its hood
some time. At that time, one should tell God, - please take this surrender and give me Peace.

Arunachala Siva.           
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 06, 2012, 07:44:16 PM
Very well said Sri Subramanian. The ghosts which a mentally ill patient "sees" is unreal in our point of view but is very real for the patient and even if we convince him that it is his mind's play that will not stop him from experiencing (seeing) it. We must stick to the Goal and always to think about It but that doesn't mean to fool ourselves that we are at the Goal now. "You are the Self" is true statement but only for One who is experiencing it. Bhagavan Ramana is example for this.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 06, 2012, 08:23:28 PM
Dear ramana,

When one reads Talks (which I consider the most profound text of Sri Bhagavan's teachings in prose), one comes
across many statements of Sri Bhagavan with apparent contradictions.  He says there is no Maya, He says Maya cannot
be described, anir vachaneeyam, Ego is only unreal phanton, ahanthai pei - He uses the phrase in one verse. So also with
Mind. He says - 'Where is the mind? Show me! I shall tell you what you should do.'  In another place, He says Mind is only
bundle of thoughts. Control the thoughts. In some other place, He says - take the mind to its source by withdrawing it from
outside world etc., etc.,

Now what one should understand , is that THESE REPLIES HAVE BEEN GIVEN DEPENDING ON THE NATURE AND MATURITY
OF QUESTIONERS.  Some are advanced. They need not require elaboration. Some others are not so advanced. They have
to be told right from beginning, because they are in Class 1. Hence Sri Bhagavan's replies varied.

Most of the members of this website are beginners, or some of them in middle stages. So we have to tell them keeping the
first premise intact, without breaking the first premise.

Devotees like Wolter Kiers, Tinnai Swami, Kunju Swami, Muruganar were all advanced level devotees. But Devaraja Mudaliar
and G.V.S were not. Hence different replies to different people.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 06, 2012, 08:43:42 PM
Exactly, Sri Subramanian! ! ! That is what I think too. I remember when I read His statements about God in Sri David Godman's book "Be as you are". Bhagavan has given so many contradicting at first sight notions that the reader may be very confused. Thank goodness, Sri David Godman gives very detailed explanation about these seeming differences and so the reader may understand the different view points of Bhagavan. For me Bhagavan gives so many different and sometimes opposing answers because of the different understandings, spiritual maturation, religion, philosophy and so on of the questioner. I am very happy that you share my opinion. So Bhagavan's words must not be considered as a "Holy Book" which we must take litterally and unchangeably and follow them exactly as it is written as some hindus, muslims or christians do but we must meditate on them and to choose which advice He gives is more appropriate for our spiritual maturity and a way of thinking. There is no formula in spirituality. Everyone must find his/her own way. Not everyone is suitable for Self-inquiry, no matter that it is quickest way to Self-realization according to Vedantist and Sri Bhagavan or that repeating of Holy Name of the Lord is the only way of Kali yuga. If that was true, then Bhagavan Ramana should be a spiritual pygmy because He didn't use any of these. "Knowing" your Self is the final Goal but there are many paths which lead to that. Self-inquiry is the final pre-realization step but not everyone can leap directly to it. Thanks for your comment. It was very helpful for me.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: nonduel on April 06, 2012, 09:23:47 PM
Dear nonduel,

You are putting the cart  before the horse.  Ego is there. To say that it is not there, is only to fool ourself. Ego
is very much there, and so the duality also remains TILL ONE MERGES WITH THAT ONE, wherafter all duality vanishes.
This moment of merger takes place only when we do Self attention and find the source of the ego, or jettison the
ego and tell God that You only are there and not Me.

To say that all is One and where is 'we' - is all not for sadhakas. Sadhakas start from Class 1. To teach Mathematics of
higher class will confuse him. Let us therefore say, there is ego and tell him, how to conquer it.

If there is no ego at all, why should Sri Bhagavan say in His last verse of Sad Darsanam, = the destruction of the ego-form
is Mukti."?

Ego is there. For you, for me, for Nagaraj, and all others. When does it come out - no one knows. It may show its hood
some time. At that time, one should tell God, - please take this surrender and give me Peace.

Arunachala Siva.         

"The ego is still there"

Yes as long as one believe he is the body, the personality.  Although one beleives that the ego is "there", the Ultimate Truth is that there is only the Self. Now we may disagree on this, depending on our view points, but the Truth is that there is only the Self, Brahman. It is maya, delusion to believe that there is a mind, an ego. It is only dirt on a window, clouds hidding the sun.

It is this belief that deludes us, and to destroy this belief we need Self-enquiry.

This belief (I am the body; the I-Though) is also what moves us to "do" things, while the more one does, the more he strenghten the belief that he is the ego and has to attain the Self. Ramana said that this is a major obstacle.

"To say that all is One and where is 'we' - is all not for sadhakas. Sadhakas start from Class 1. To teach Mathematics of
higher class will confuse him. Let us therefore say, there is ego and tell him, how to conquer it."


Yes!  To conquer this delusion! It makes me thing of the story that Sri Sadhu Om told of the man filled with anxiety in the corner of three walls, looking for liberation. Or the rope and snake.

"why should Sri Bhagavan say in His last verse of Sad Darsanam, = the destruction of the ego-form
is Mukti."?


Yes! The destruction of the delusion! Can one destroy an illusion while still nourishing it, keeping it alive and strong? An actor so taken by his role, that he keeps it alive even when the scene is finished.

What I am saying is that as long as one focus, and works, and does...he is identifying with the body, which is the source of the delusion, the mind, the ego. Ramana said that the mind is a criminal dressed as a policeman.

While the identification with the self (self-attention; self-enquiry) is the weapon against the ego and the mind.

The best way to express what I am saying, is BE STILL!
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 06, 2012, 09:38:13 PM
If anyone of us was believing that ego exists then we would not be here and to follow Bhagavan and Advaita philosophy. But it doesn't mean the we must not accept our current "state". Repeating "I am the Self", "I am not the ego" and so on will not make you more free. Dream illness can be cured with dream medicine. So to just discard the existence of the ego is not very practical. If you analyze further you will see that everything from the first to the last thing you have done from your first breath to the your current condition is the ego, duality. We don't feed the ego. We try to "kill" the imaginary ego by the "imaginary" weapons which are suitable for us. So you are right as much as Sri Subramanian is right. You are right that the ego is illusion as much as the people who consider it real. In Reality there is no opinions and theories.

Best wishes, ramana1359.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: nonduel on April 06, 2012, 10:00:32 PM
Dear Ramana1359,

You are right it is NOT a question of who is right or not. It is a sharing of different understandings.

Let me try to express it better. Liberation isn't for the Self. Now if we accept this Truth, then who is the doer? It has to be an illusionary individual (the ego). Now no matter how much this ego does, works, discipline himself...it will never attain liberation!

So considering this, what is there to do? Think about this! No matter what the ego will and can do, it will never be liberated. At best we will destroy it.

It is an illusion! So what does Ramana teach?  Rest in the self, go within at the source. The source is within not outside which is the playground of maya, the ego. Another way to put it, stop giving importance to the illusion.

As long as I put effort in the ego, the less I put to reach the source. It's a question of attitude, not a doing. A Being not a doing!
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 06, 2012, 10:23:51 PM
I am not trying to say you are wrong or that your opinion is inferior from my point of view. God forbids! I'm just trying to tell you that no matter what we do, try to do or try not to do is the ego. Every word which we use, every sentence, conversation, even our communication is the ego. If you do Self-inquiry - it is the ego. If you do Nama Japa - it is the ego. You say:

Quote
As long as I put effort in the ego, the less I put to reach the source. It's a question of attitude, not a doing. A Being not a doing!

Attitude? The Self has not attitude. It's the ego!

Quote
It is an illusion! So what does Ramana teach?  Rest in the self, go within at the source. The source is within not outside which is the playground of maya, the ego. Another way to put it, stop giving importance to the illusion.

Source? The Self has no Source. The ego has a Source and only as long as it "exists". See? My, your or Bhagavan's words are not more or less real. Everything is the ego. Bhagavan has known that. For Him everything - Self-inquiry, His teachings and so on are without foundation, illusiory and unnecessary. He gives illusory medicine for our illusory illness. Whatever we do, accept, reject and so on is by the ego. So no matter what is your understanding - the important thing is if this understanding will make you realize your Self. Until we realize that there is not illusion or reality we are bound by the ego because all notions are from the ego.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 07, 2012, 08:13:19 AM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
MAHIMA: "Can a man live in the world if his mind is once directed to God?"
See God in the world
MASTER: "Why not? Where will he go away from the world? I realize that wherever I live
I am always in the Ayodhya of Rama
. This whole world is Rama's Ayodhya. After
receiving instruction from His teacher, Rama said that He would renounce the world.
Dasaratha sent the sage Vasishtha to Rama to dissuade Him. Vasishtha found Him filled
with intense renunciation. He said to Rama: 'First of all, reason with me, Rama; then You
may leave the world. May I ask You if this world is outside, God? If that is so, then You
may give it up.' Rama found that it is God alone who has become the universe and all its
living beings. Everything in the world appears real on account of God's reality behind it.
Thereupon Rama became silent
.
"In the world a man must fight against passions like lust and anger, against many desires,
against attachment. It is convenient to fight from inside a fort-from his own home. At home
he gets his food and other help from his wife. In the Kaliyuga the life of a man depends
entirely on food.
(Ramana had some comments on the recommendation of Nama for the Kali yuga.The Reason is precisely this-As long as one is strongly entrenched in Body consciousness,one cannot say that Ego is false appearance,world is unreal,etc is-More on this later-Ravi) It is better to get food at one place than to knock at seven doors for it.
Living at home is like facing the battle from a fort.
"Live in the world like a cast-off leaf in a gale. Such a leaf is sometimes blown inside a
house and sometimes to a rubbish heap. The leaf goes wherever the wind blows-sometimes
to a good place and sometimes to a bad. Now God has put you in the world. That is good.
Stay here. Again, when He lifts you from here and puts you in a better place, that will be
time enough to think about what to do then.
"God has put you in the world. What can you do about it? Resign everything to Him.
Surrender yourself at His feet. Then there will be no more confusion. Then you will realize
that it is God who does everything. All depends on 'the will of Rama'
."

continued....
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 07, 2012, 08:18:43 AM
Story of "the will of Rama"
A DEVOTEE: "What is that story about 'the will of Rama'?"
MASTER: "In a certain village there lived a weaver. He was a very pious,soul. Everyone
trusted him and loved him. He used to sell his goods in the market-place. When a customer
asked him the price of a piece of cloth, the weaver would say: 'By the will of Rama the
price of the yarn is one rupee and the labour four annas ; by the will of Rama the profit is
two annas . The price of the cloth, by the will of Rama, is one rupee and six annas .' Such
was the people's faith in the weaver that the customer would at once pay the price and take
the cloth. The weaver was a real devotee of God. After finishing his supper in the evening,
he would spend long hours' in the worship hall meditating on God and chanting His name
and glories. Now, late one night the weaver couldn't get to sleep. He was sitting in the
worship hall, smoking now and then, when a band of robbers happened to pass that way.
They wanted a man to carry their goods and said to the weaver, 'Come with us.' So saying,
they led him off by the hand. After committing a robbery in a house, they put a load of
things on the weaver's head, commanding him to carry them. Suddenly the police arrived
and the robbers ran away. But the weaver, with his load, was arrested. He was kept in the
lock-up for the night. Next day he was brought before the magistrate for trial. The villagers
learnt what had happened and came to court. They said to the magistrate, 'Your Honour,
this man could never commit a robbery.' Thereupon the magistrate asked the weaver to
make his statement.
'The weaver said: 'Your Honour, by the will of Rama I finished my meal at night. Then by
the will of Rama I was sitting in the worship hall. It was quite late at night by the will of
Rama. By the will of Rama I had been thinking of God and chanting His name and glories,
when by the will of Rama a band of robbers passed that way. By the will of Rama they
dragged me with them; by the will of Rama they committed a robbery in a house; and by
the will of Rama they put a load on my head. Just then, by the will of Rama the police
arrived, and by the will of Rama I was arrested. Then by the will of Rama the police kept
me in the lock-up for the night, and this morning by the will of Rama I have been brought
before Your Honour.' The magistrate realized that the weaver was a pious man and ordered
his release. On his way home the weaver said to his friends, 'By the will of Rama I have
been released.'
"Whether a man should be a householder or a monk depends on the will of Rama.
Surrender everything to God and do your duties in the world. What else can you do?
A
clerk was once sent to prison. After the prison term was over he was released. Now, what
do you think he did? Cut capers or do his old clerical work?
"If the householder becomes a jivanmukta, then he can easily live in the world if he likes. A
man who has attained Knowledge does not differentiate between 'this place' and 'that place'.
All places are the same to him. He who thinks of 'that place' also thinks of 'this place'
.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 07, 2012, 08:38:32 AM
Quote:"But no matter what is your path, the so called "liberation" is by the Grace of God (Guru). Whithout the Grace everything is immaterial."



Of what avail is knowing things
Other than the Self ? And the Self being known,
What other things is there to know ?
That one light that shines as many selves,
Seeing this Self within
As Awareness’ lightening flash;
The play of Grace; the ego’s death;
The blossoming of Bliss.
V. 4, Atma Vidya Kirtanam
( Source: The Collected Works Of Sri Ramana Maharshi


Dear Sri Ramana 1359,


Guru's grace is always there. But we should become fit vessels
to take the Grace, by self-surrender or self-enquiry with utmost
perseverance. His Grace is ever flowing, full. Grace is verily the Self. In the V. 1 of the ‘Atma Vidya Kirtanam’, Sri Bhagwan says that even to the most infirm person, Self, or the Consciousness, ‘I am’, is so very real that in comparison to that Reality even the amlak fruit in one’s palm appears as a mere illusion. Therefore, the Self shines without difference in all the different living beings as the mere Existence-Consciousness ‘I am’. Therefore, to know our True Nature, all we have to do is to attend the Existence-Consciousness ‘I am’ within ourselves. Sri Bhagwan says that attending to ‘I am’ confers Self-Knowledge. Therefore, the Presence of the Existence-Consciousness ‘I am’ in all beings at all times everywhere making it easy to attend to It and hold It is Divine Grace. ‘Merging with It’, ‘Being It’, or ‘the Experience of the Self’, as It is, is the destruction of the ego, shining forth of the Grace, and blossoming of Bliss.

So Sri Bhagwan says:
Lo, very easy is Self-knowledge,
Lo, very easy indeed.
Therefore, what I wish to say is that attending to ever-present Existence-consciousness ‘I am’ is Divine Grace and Its shining forth after the destruction of the ego, either by Enquiry or Surrender, is the ‘SHINING FORTH OF THE GRACE’ AND ‘BLOSSOMING OF BLISS’.
Besides, are we discussing so much without His Grace ? Grace is in the beginning, middle and end, for Grace is the Self. Where else will Grace come from ? It is from the Self alone.
Dear Sri Ramana 1359,there is not a moment when Grace is not operating in us. Our remembrance is the forerunner of Grace. Sri Bhagwan says,”That is the response, that is the stimulus, that is the Self and that is Grace.  yes, we cannot remember Him, nor dispassion can be acquired, nor realisation of the Truth, nor inherence in the Self, in the absence of Guru,’s Grace. That is for certain. His Grace is the primary and essential cause.
Sri Thayumanavar, “Glory to Thee for enablingme to discuss so much and follow Thy words so far.”
But, NEVERTHELESS, OUR EFFORT IS SINE QUA NON. CAN THE SPETACLES AND THE SUN SEE THE SUN FOE US ? We ourselves have to see our true nature. When effort combines with Grace there is nothing in the three worlds that cannot be achieved.

Thank you,
    Anil 
   

Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 07, 2012, 09:52:29 AM
Quote
Guru's grace is always there. But we should become fit vessels
to take the Grace, by self-surrender or self-enquiry with utmost
perseverance. His Grace is ever flowing, full.

Of course. But there are two kind of people with two kind of interpretation of this. The first say that the Lord choose who to grant with His Grace. It's a destiny. The Second group say what you have said in this quote. I am from the second and share your opinion. But I will put it like this "Human effort is as important as Guru's or God's Grace. Effort without Grace is doomed. But Grace is always there say Guru Ramana". This is the cause why I defended the position of existing of free will in another topic - because believing that everything is predestined makes many spiritual seekers lazy and absolutely irresponsible. Without "will" there is no effort. Then how could we be a vessel for God's (Guru's) Grace? I hope you get what I mean.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 07, 2012, 10:28:17 AM
Dear Raviji,

Yes. The Will of Rama is there. If I and you have will and all is Rama's Will then it can mean:
1. Rama's Will is my and your will
2. My or your will is Rama's Will
3. My or your will is part of Rama's will

Does any of the answers change the fact that effort is needed? No. For jnani 'must' is the realization that there is no such thing as 'will' and for bhakta - that the only 'will" is Lord's Will. This is the same as what Sri Ramakrishna has said and you quoted in another topic. The final destination of jnani and bhakta is annihilation of the ego which is liberation. When that happens there is no place for discussions and theories because there is no 'one' who to discuss and 'others' who to listen and participate. When you 'see' everything is Rama how can you say 'my will' or 'His Will' or whatever. Everything is experience of Rama Who is the Self.

People think that bhakti is very easy and always choose it instead of Self-inquiry. But if it is that then why so many millions, billions of bhaktas and so few realized persons? Because Complete Surrender is the same as Self-inquiry and the final destination to both methods is annihilation of the ego but nobody wants that. Every bhakta wants to see God, to go to heaven, to see his dead relatives, to have 40 (or whatever the number) virgins there and so on. Does anyone follow God just because the Love for Him, not from fear of going to Hell or from desire of heaven? Almost nobody - and this is true even among these who claim publicly that they love God. They 'love' God may be because their good destiny or the hope of inheriting the heaven.

This is my short response to your post, Sri Ravi. Yes, everything is Rama's Will but only for those who see Rama everywhere. If you ask a christian - "Is all Lord Jesus' Will"? he or she will answer you "No! We have will, Satan too has will". Muslims will answer that way too. The cause for this is lack of Complete Surrender. Only a bhakta surrendered his/her ego to the Lord can see everything as Rama's (Jesus', Shiva's, Hari's, Allah's) Will. Jnanis say "I see no will anywhere. I 'see' only Brahman". The bhakta and the jnanis say the same Truth but reflected by their own remained 'vasanas'.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 07, 2012, 10:30:48 AM
Dear Sri Ramana 1359,

I firmly believe in the dictum that there is the essential unity in all spiritual matters. For instance, first kind of people, as you have said in your posts, believe that the Lord chooses  who to grant with His Grace, or Sri Bhagwan chooses His preys. Yes, in my view that is right. The solution lies in His Statement that he (that particular chosen jiva) may have put in the necessary labour in his previous births.

Thank you,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 07, 2012, 10:35:23 AM
Quote
I firmly believe in the dictum that there is the essential unity in all spiritual matters. For instance, first kind of people, as you have said in your posts, believe that the Lord chooses  who to grant with His Grace, or Sri Bhagwan chooses His preys. Yes, in my view that is right. The solution lies in His Statement that he (that particular chosen jiva) may have put in the necessary labour in his previous births.

Yes. This means that person's will is available. There is no diversity in spirituality. There is just different points of view.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 07, 2012, 10:35:56 AM
Quote:
Living at home is like facing the battle from a fort.
"Live in the world like a cast-off leaf in a gale. Such a leaf is sometimes blown inside a
house and sometimes to a rubbish heap. The leaf goes wherever the wind blows-sometimes
to a good place and sometimes to a bad. Now God has put you in the world. That is good.
Stay here. Again, when He lifts you from here and puts you in a better place, that will be
time enough to think about what to do then.
"God has put you in the world. What can you do about it? Resign everything to Him.
Surrender yourself at His feet. Then there will be no more confusion. Then you will realize
that it is God who does everything. All depends on 'the will of Rama'."

Dear Sri Ravi N,
           Pranam,

Thank you so much for your inspiring posts. God has put us in the world and nothing can be done about it except resigning and surrendering at His Feet. V. 18-61, Srimad Bhagavad Gita says that Lord dwells in the heart of all beings revolving them by His mysterious Power Maya, as if they were objects mounted on a machine. So, the leaf goes wherever the wind carries it. There is no peace. Mind remains agitated. What to do ? ‘Living at home’ is the thing to do for two reasons: First, it is like facing the battle from the fort as you said. And second, it is cool and calm inside as opposed to heat and cold and agitation outside. Yes, Sri Bhagwan says that there are only two ways: enquire who is agitated and remain fixed at home (in Self), or surrender unconditionally.
ALL DEPENDS ON THE WILL OF RAMA. May I say that HIS WILL ALONE IS OPERATING THROUGH OUR SO-CALLED FREE WILL ?

Thank you,
   Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 07, 2012, 02:46:23 PM
Quote:
“Exactly, Sri Subramanian! ! ! That is what I think too. I remember when I read His statements about God in Sri David Godman's book "Be as you are". Bhagavan has given so many contradicting at first sight notions that the reader may be very confused. Thank goodness, Sri David Godman gives very detailed explanation about these seeming differences and so the reader may understand the different view points of Bhagavan. For me Bhagavan gives so many different and sometimes opposing answers because of the different understandings, spiritual maturation, religion, philosophy and so on of the questioner. I am very happy that you share my opinion. So Bhagavan's words must not be considered as a "Holy Book" which we must take litterally and unchangeably and follow them exactly as it is written as some hindus, muslims or christians do but we must meditate on them and to choose which advice He gives is more appropriate for our spiritual maturity and a way of thinking. ”


Dear Sri Ramana 1359,

Yes. Sri Bhagwan’s Words and Teaching varied depending upon the level of maturity or pakva of the devotee to whom they were addressed. Sometimes, they appeared contradictory. But in all methods and sadhanas that were pointed out to different devotees, He always helped focus the attention of the devotees to the One Single Reality i.e. the inescapable Self.
Yes, His Name, all His Utterances and Teaching are holy. He is Lord Sri Arunachala Incarnate and, therefore, His Words and Utterances are one of the holiest books the mankind has ever seen. But yes, one need not take them literally. There is no such need. One need not be dogmatic either. For, His Teaching is holistic and rational to suit the need of the modern so-called rational mind.

Thank you,
   Anil     

Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 07, 2012, 03:11:32 PM
Dear nonduel, anil and Ravi and others,

In the subject of ego, two incidents come to mind in Sri Bhagavan's life.

1. Once Chinnaswami was constantly advising Ramanatha Brahmachari, to stop working on charka (the spinning wheel)
since the latter's eyes were already myopic (Ramanatha was wearing  thick glasses) and this spinning would further
cause deterioration in his eyesight. Ramanatha, apart from devoted to Sri Bhagavan was a die hard Gandhian and he
did not leave the practice. Once Chinnaswami caught him (he was a puny figure) by neck and said: If you operate the
charka I shall roll you down these steps! Do you know who am I?

Ramanatha replied coolly: If you and I really know who we are, then we will not be here, fighting with each other!

Even Chinnaswami laughed!

So ego is there, either in a small size or in a king size for every one.

2. Once Devaraja Mudaliar asked about partial surrender. Sri Bhagavan replied: Partial surrender is also good. But one
should graduate to total surrender where the ego is completely destroyed.

The fact that partial surrender is accepted shows that there is ego to begin with and it should be erased slowly and steadily.

There is one verse, Verse 7 in Kovil Tirupadigam in Tiruvachakam of Saint Manikkavachagar, where the saint poet describes
the erasure of ego slowly into an atomic size and then make it disappear.  See David Godman's Power of the Presence, for
an English translation of this verse.

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 07, 2012, 04:06:24 PM
Dear Sri nonduel and Sri Ramana 1359,

There is no bondage, no one doing spiritual practices, no one seeking spiritual liberation, and no one who is liberated. One who is established in the Self sees this by knowledge of reality.
                                                                                                                           Sri Bhagwan

“Though Guru Ramana , who appeared as God incarnate, expounded numerous doctrines, as befitted the different states and beliefs of the various devotees who sought refuge at his feet, you should know that what we have heard him affirm to intimate devotees in private, as an act of grace, as his own true experience, is only the doctrine of ajata (non-creation).”
                                                         V. 100, GVK, Edited by Sri David Godman

The Self alone is eternal. Mind and intellect are phenomena. All the same, practice is sine qua non. Why ? Because the old habits of the mind can be broken only by the continuous practice. Because seeking inward is the path to be gained by man’s intellect. Sri Bhagwan says that the intellect realises after continuous practice that it is enabled by some Higher Power to function. It cannot itself reach that Power. So, there comes a stage when it ceases to function. When it thus ceases to function the Supreme Power is still left there all alone. That is Realisation.
It is thus obvious that the purpose of the intellect is to realise its own dependence upon the Higher Power and its inability to reach the Goal. Therefore, It must annihilate itself by either seeking inward or surrendering at His Feet, before the goal is gained.
Again,
See for whom the mind or intellect functions.
For the ego which is the non-Self. Duality pertains to ego. Hence, Sri Bhagwan teaches to merge the intellect in the ego and destroy the ego either by seeking inward or surrendering unconditionally at His Feet.

Dear devotees, intellect is known to delight in investigating the past and future but not the all-important present; up and down, left and right and the whole universe but it does not easily take to investigation of its own self because it is bound to lose itself if it sank within in search of the Self. And on the contrary, investigation outside gives it a fresh lease of life and food for growth.

SRI BHAGWAN SAYS THAT PURPOSE OF THE INTELLECT IS TO SHOW THE WAY TO REALISE THE SELF AND IT MUST BE PUT TO THAT USE.

Thank you so much.
           Anil

Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 07, 2012, 04:24:10 PM
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Thank you so much for a very nice post, sir. Ji. Yes. The ego is there, either in a small size or in a king size in everyone, till it merges and remains merged forever in the Self. Thank you once again for reminding, sir.

In which part and in which chapter of the Power of the Presence the english translation of the V.7 of the Tirupadigam in Tiruvachakam is to be found ?

Regards,
   Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: nonduel on April 07, 2012, 06:18:57 PM
Everyone, Pranams,

What a marvelous place is this forum! I have read all your posts, and I feel an enormous amount of Love for all of you.

I also realise how difficult it is to use words, which always can be interpreted. Furthermore, Bhagavan always anwered a disciple in respect to his understanding, which add to the confusion.

There's really no bad answers or understanding if one follows Ramana's teaching, because the knowledge will come through other members on this forum for example, or from another source. But the answer will come! It is the rythm of the Self that shower its Grace, when one is "ripe".

To conclude, let me try to be more concise. There is only the Self, Brahman. There is nothing to attain, only to realise it. What prevent this realisation is the delusion "I am this body, this so-and-so..." But it doesn't affect the dreamer (Self)

All the doing is God's, all we can do is to surrender. Even to scratch my head is God's will! I cannot do anything about it, so why worry, why try to change anything.

I do not mean to stay passive, not read, get in a cave etc... I think it is important to realise that I am NOT THE DOER! I am the Awareness on which everything is surimposed. We can work hard to change what we cannot, or put the suitcase down on the train and relax.

So what can I "do" to realise who I am? Bhagavan said to do self-enquiry. There comes a "time" when one has to get of the train, stop the continous moving around, letting the mind create chaos, thoughts of failure, of the need to do etc... The mind is a criminal disguised as a policeman. A time to accept!

It is nothing else but "BEING!"   You ARE what you are looking for, and you cannot find it, you can only BE IT.

My deepest Love!



Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 07, 2012, 06:55:02 PM
Ramana/Friends,
The Story of 'Rama's will' is as it is in The Gospel of Sri ramakrishna.'Rama's will' is to be understood to mean God's will(Allah or Jesus,Jehovah or whatever).I have posted to emphasize that one cannot make exceptions in this Regard-one cannot say that all that one can do is 'one's will' and the rest is 'God's will'.Likewise it is to emphasize that all results are as ordained by God,not just the unexpected or Favourable ones.It is not to suggest that effort was not required.The weaver in the story had to do all of it.
I have posted in the Rough-Notebook-Open Forum' on how the paths of jnAna and Bhakti lead to the same Truth.Yet,these have their characteristics in approach,although they are two sides of the same coin.
The Devotee does not question the Ego,he is not concerned how small or Big it is.He does not compare.He is drawn to the Love and Peace that is God and directly experiences this in the core of the Being.He keeps this connection intact inwardly,although outwardly he may continue to participate in the world process.Only he takes care to keep this secret communion going-this is called 'smarana' or 'Practice of the Presence of God'.
He does not treat this world as a Dream.He does not call it unreal and his Ego as unreal.If the Ego is unreal,then why worry about it?If it is Real,what can one do about it!
He does know that while in the world,he makes use of things that he needs , enters into relationship with  people ,relatives,friends,etc,carries out activities towards sustenance and pursuit of Knowledge and arts,etc-all these are secondary to what is most fundamental to living-Love and Peace.His whole sadhana is to stay centred in this oasis within.It is for God to bring about the Ripening and all that one needs to do is to stay on the Tree of Life,i.e God.

As long as one is in Body-Consciousness,it is Futile to call the 'Ego' or the 'world' as unreal.I have posted regarding this in the Open Discussion Forum,under the thread on Bhagavad Gita online.All that one may reasonably say is that one knows that all things are of temporal value and exercise Discrimination and Dispassion in our relationship with the world.
Integrity is key to sadhana and Humility and openness.One needs tocarry on with Sadhana and whatever ripening will happen will happen in due course.

Namaskar.

Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 07, 2012, 06:57:26 PM
Dear anil,

Tiruchakam, Kovil Tirupadigam, Verse 7 reads as under:

Today You have graced me, removed the darkness in my mind,
Like the sun that removes the darkness.
Your state in my heart, I am remembering without break
There is nothing other than You,
Approaching approaching You,  O Lord of Tiruperundurai,
Who wore me down, more and more to an atom's size,
till I, becoming less and less, became one with You.   


This is my own translation. David's, I am not able to get in spite of 1 hour search.

Saint Tayumanavar describes the same state in his Udal PoyyuRavu, Verse 25:

Why day and night, shout I am That loudly,
Referring to the Realtiy whose bliss is ineffable?
Those who have attained the auspicious Siva Jnana
say that in the state of true mouna there is no I.

(mouna here is the state which is beyond thoughts, words and deeds. It is Atma mouna)

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 07, 2012, 07:22:27 PM
Anil/Nonduel/Subramanaian/friends,
I agree with all that you have posted.A quiet mind is the basis to understand anything.Then one realizes that ideas or thoughts are not important.The content that they express is what is the essence.Otherwise one idea that emphasizes only one aspect of this essence is at loggerheads with another idea that emphasizes another aspect of the same essence.The clash of ideas multiply and diverge and leads to endless discussion and debate.At the same time one also needs to exercise the discrimination that what one thinks as 'Essence' is truly so!Another one cannot do it for us.The more one is clear about it,the fewer the words one would use;also ,the less one would impose it on others.It will be offered as a 'Take it or leave it'.
I fully agree with what nonduel has posted in his latest post here.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 07, 2012, 08:19:25 PM
Yes, Sri Ravi, I understand what this story points to. That is what I mean. If a bhakta says that the world and God are not real then he/she fools him/herself. How can he or she to truely believe and surrender to "imaginary" God? To say "O, God is real until you have ego and then He stops existing" is ridiculous. He exists or He does not - there is no middle position. This is why I don't like people who consider themselves "jnanis" (who are actually as ignorant as ourselves) "Listen to me, God is an illusion. So stop worshipping. Start Self-inquiry.

We want to embrace everything. We want to call God unreal one time, unreal another. Our ego wants we to be superior (cleverest). Ego wants we think that our 'advaitic knowledge' contains everything, that we are almost on the top on the mountain and others philosophies are inconsistent. Ingorance! We fool ourselves many times. Can you pray to God if you don't believe He is real? To pray to Shiva all night and in the morning to teach people that God is unreal is hypocracy! It's the same with the ego. "There is no ego! There is no ego, my friends!" and suddenly he who's said this start going angry. That's my point. I don't mean to offend anyone or to prove he/she is wrong but he or she to be honest to the others and most importantly - TO THEMSELVES.

I now everyone of us give his/her best. That all comments come from the heart. I understand every point of view. But I strongly believe that every topic and every comment we made, make and will make lead us more and more to the Final Goal!

Best wishes, ramana1359
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 07, 2012, 08:37:24 PM
Dear Ramana,

There is a subtle pointer that i discern from your expression, in your previous post.

you said:

Quote
(Ramana)

Can you pray to God if you don't believe He is real? To pray to Shiva all night and in the morning to teach people that God is unreal is hypocracy! It's the same with the ego. "There is no ego! There is no ego, my friends!" and suddenly he who's said this start going angry. That's my point. I don't mean to offend anyone or to prove he/she is wrong but he or she to be honest to the others and most importantly - TO THEMSELVES.

The hypocracy which you or we see in others is actually ourselves, how are you or we able to discern something as hypocracy, unless it is first found in oneself?

it is oneself alone who gets angry at seeing somebody getting angry after somebody who had been talking all along about "There is no ego! There is no ego, my friends!", it is oneself who is agitated, you or we are agitated, but we say, they who talk all nice words get angry in the end!

If you perceive anger of somebody else, it is your own anger, if you perceive love of somebody else, it is your own love. To point somebody their hypocracy, is actually pointing ones own hyporacy. Do you see this?

it is all ourselevs, oneself.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 07, 2012, 08:54:31 PM
actually it is impossible to perceive the anger or just anything external to yourself, what you see in others is ones own.

What is impossible is verily 'maya' or 'Asat' or 'Unreal'

Suppose, somebody gets angry and is a top rate hypocrite, how does one go about making the 'other' understand? is it the 'other', who has to discern or is it one self who needs to discern?

It is all within oneself.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 07, 2012, 09:00:19 PM
Ramana,
Quote
I understand what this story points to. That is what I mean. If a bhakta says that the world and God is not(I think you intended this not-ravi) real then he/she fools him/herself. How can he or she to truely believe and surrender to "imaginary" God? To say "O, God is real until you have ego and then He stops existing" is ridiculous. He exists or He does not - there is no middle position. This is why I don't like people who consider themselves "jnanis" (who are actually as ignorant as ourselves) "Listen to me, God is an illusion. So stop worshipping. Start Self-inquiry.

We want to embrace everything. We want to call God unreal one time, unreal another. Our ego wants we to be superior (cleverest). Ego wants we think that our 'advaitic knowledge' contains everything, that we are almost on the top on the mountain and others philosophies are inconsistent. Ingorance! We fool ourselves many times. Can you pray to God if you don't believe He is real? To pray to Shiva all night and in the morning to teach people that God is unreal is hypocracy! It's the same with the ego. "There is no ego! There is no ego, my friends!" and suddenly he who's said this start going angry. That's my point. I don't mean to offend anyone or to prove he/she is wrong but he or she to be honest to the others and most importantly - TO THEMSELVES.

 :) cannot agree with you more!
Advaitic Truth is not something that can be expressed in words-To say that 'I' and God is unreal requires someone to say it!This is not to be taken literally,it means that the distinction between 'I' and 'God' is no longer there;that God apart from oneself and the world is unreal,it is the gulf that is not real.
Yet,if the seeker thinks that God is 'imagination' and that he and his 'self-enquiry' alone is real,he is definitely fooling himself.He just needs to look around and see the vast universe where he is tinier than an atom!It is only the one who is steeped in Bhakti who can if so inclined question the Reality of the 'i' and get rid of the seeming seperation of the 'i' and 'God'.He then perceives that there is no 'I' in actual sense,and that God or Self alone exists.

Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Quote
M. accompanied the
Master to the verandah, where Narendra was talking with Hazra. Sri Ramakrishna knew
that Hazra always indulged in dry philosophical discussions. Hazra would say: "The world
is unreal, like a dream. Worship, food offerings to the Deity, and so forth, are only
hallucinations of the mind. The aim of spiritual life is to meditate on one's own real Self."
Then he would repeat, "I am He." But, with all that, he had a soft corner in his heart for
money, material things, and people's attention
.
Sri Ramakrishna smiled and said to Hazra and Narendra, "Hello! What are you talking
about?"
NARENDRA (smiling): "Oh, we are discussing a great many things. They are rather too
deep for others."
MASTER (with a smile): "But Pure Knowledge and Pure Love are one and the same thing.
Both lead the aspirants to the same goal. The path of love is much the easier."
Narendra quoted a song:
O Mother, make me mad with Thy love!
What need have I of knowledge or reason?
Narendra said to M. that he had been reading a book by Hamilton, who wrote: "A learned
ignorance is the end of philosophy and the beginning of religion."
MASTER (to M.): "What does that mean?"
Narendra explained the sentence in Bengali. The Master beamed with joy and said in
English, "Thank you! Thank you!" Everyone laughed at the charming way he said these
words. They knew that his English vocabulary consisted of only half a dozen words.

Sri Ramakrishna is a Great Master who knew all the angularities and deceptions of the mind and  would come out with utterly simple and interesting tales that would not only be humorous but also illuminate the position for the seeker.He is like an expert Doctor who not only knew what medicine to administer but also what dosage and frequency.

Namaskar.


Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 07, 2012, 09:08:45 PM
Quote
The hypocracy which you or we see in others is actually ourselves, how are you or we able to discern something as hypocracy, unless it is first found in oneself?

I can know what is sweetness without having something sweet in my mouth right now.

Quote
If you perceive anger of somebody else, it is your own anger, if you perceive love of somebody else, it is your own love. To point somebody their hypocracy, is actually pointing ones own hyporacy. Do you see this?

My hypocracy is my own. It is not your. Or you again speak from more absolute point of view? Hypocracy is when you say something you don't believe or feel. I don't judge or correct anyone, Sri Nagaraj. I don't know if you really understand me. There is no problem even in hypocracy. My point is that if you want something, then everything must be clear and most importantly - understanding of your (our) own actions and thoughts.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 07, 2012, 09:25:47 PM
Quote
Advaitic Truth is not something that can be expressed in words-To say that 'I' and God is unreal requires someone to say it!This is not to be taken literally,it means that the distinction between 'I' and 'God' is no longer there;that God apart from oneself and the world is unreal,it is the gulf that is not real.
Yet,if the seeker thinks that God is 'imagination' and that he and his 'self-enquiry' alone is real,he is definitely fooling himself.He just needs to look around and see the vast universe where he is tinier than an atom!It is only the one who is steeped in Bhakti who can if so inclined question the Reality of the 'i' and get rid of the seeming seperation of the 'i' and 'God'.He then perceives that there is no 'I' in actual sense,and that God or Self alone exists.


Absolutely! Why I emphasize on this is because that people who follow bhakti marga and at the same time say that God is unreal actually are putting obstacles in their own relationship with God. And it is not because God is angry because they call Him unreal :) but because they unconciously or not distance from Him. Mind cannot be attached and truely surrender to something which it considers unreal.

Thank you for the quoting of Sri Ramakrishna!

Best wishes, ramana1359
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 07, 2012, 09:49:41 PM
Dear Ramana,

I am not talking about you or me, or absolute point of view or relative point of view. that which i discern, i share. this also is discernment, on our way...  :)

Quote
Ramana

I can know what is sweetness without having something sweet in my mouth right now.

This is the point, this alone, the sweetness is in you, only yourself, or only ourselves, and not elsewhere.

The world doesn't trouble us, it is ourselves alone always.

The world, that which we see, the experience of our 5 senses, see, hear, touch, taste, breathe is ours own.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 07, 2012, 09:50:49 PM
Ramana,
In this excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,the master is quite categorical in the injury that undigested advaitic knowledge can do:
Quote
Householders and Non-dualism
MASTER (to M.): "Self-Knowledge is discussed in the Ashtavakra Samhita. The nondualists
say, 'Soham', that is, 'I am the Supreme Self.' This is the view of the sannyasis of
the Vedantic school. But this is not the right attitude for householders, who are conscious of
doing everything themselves. That being so, how can they declare, 'I am That, the
actionless Supreme Self'
? According to the non-dualists the Self is unattached. Good and
bad, virtue and vice, and the other pairs of opposites, cannot in any way injure the Self,
though they undoubtedly afflict those who have identified themselves with their bodies.

It is not to say that the Master decried the path of jnAna-he considered that it is something beyond the reach of all but the most ripe aspirants.The Master had a copy of the Ashtavakra Gita hidden under his pillow!He allowed only Narendra(Swami Vivekananda) and 'M' (the only house-holder that he permitted!)to read it.
Nowadays 'advaita' has become a buzzword and everyone is eager not to be left behind!
Yet,this is not to detract from all those who are sincerely drawn to Advaitic teachings and are doing sadhana.The ones who are in right earnest are the ones who will not talk about it.For advaita is not a matter for affirmation or discussion.

Namaskar.





Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 08, 2012, 12:33:51 AM
Quote
This is the point, this alone, the sweetness is in you, only yourself, or only ourselves, and not elsewhere.

The world doesn't trouble us, it is ourselves alone always.

The world, that which we see, the experience of our 5 senses, see, hear, touch, taste, breathe is ours own.

Thanks for your answer, Sri Nagaraj. There is what I think:

You say the sweetness is in me. What "me"? The ego? If the ego exists then all other souls exist. If they exist then why not to accept that they taste sweetness of the sugar too?

You say that the world doesn't trouble us. Say that to the people living on the street or those with broken marriages or people damaged by car-crash. If dehatma buddhi is there everything is there. So we cannot say we are only, everything is from us.

You say that the world is our own. Let ask God what would He tell us about that :D?

You see, we talk about different levels of the Truth according to the different levels of the mind and mix them. That's where all confusion and troubles arise. We could not compare the palace in which we live in as kings during our dream sleep with the ordinary house from our waking state, could we? :) But I am sure everything will be cleared up in our further posts.

Best wishes, ramana1359
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 08, 2012, 12:47:27 AM
Sri Ravi, excellent explanation from Sri Ramakrishna!

Jnani's and bhakta's statements about Reality are the same in fact :). Jnanis say only God (the Self) exists, everything is unreal. Bhaktas say only God exists, everything is God. No one statement is more or less accurate than the other. We choose which one to apply to our spiritual sadhana. The Goal is one - annihilation of the ego. And when this happen there is no matter any of the statements because the person for whom they had mattered is now gone and only God (the Self) 'remains'.

Best wishes, ramana1359
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 08, 2012, 07:30:05 AM
Today You have graced me, removed the darkness in my mind,
Like the sun that removes the darkness.
Your state in my heart, I am remembering without break
There is nothing other than You,
Approaching approaching You, O Lord of Tiruperundurai,
Who wore me down, more and more to an atom's size,
till I, becoming less and less, became one with You.

Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

I am grateful to you indeed for your sublime rendering of the V. 7 from the Tiruvachakam into a beautiful English poetry.
Dear sir, I wish to add here that if the degree of absence of thoughts is the measure of our progress towards Self-Realisation, continued reduction in the size of the ego is the measure of progress of the bhaktas towards becoming one with God—worn down, reduced to an atom’s size and becoming less and less till becoming one with Him.
Dear sir, who among the great Tamil sages did sing the following Verse ?
‘Not knowing the truth of myself I was deluded by the ideas ‘I’ and ‘mine’; but when I came to know myself I knew also that Thou art both I and mine.’

Therefore, dear sir, it follows that true devotion is also nothing but to come to know oneself. The above Verse implies that coming to know oneself also means knowing that Lord Himself is I and mine.

Thank you so much, sir.

Regards,
  Anil     
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 08, 2012, 07:31:29 AM

Dear Sri nonduel,
              Pranam

I wish to convey through this post that I have also followed almost all your posts and sometimes I felt as if they are my own.
Yes, there is nothing but being and ‘I am’ what I am looking for. Therefore, who will find whom? Finding implies a subject-object relationship—the finder and the found whereas I myself am what I am looking for—both the finder as well as the found. Hence, I can only BE It. ‘Summa Iru’ is the practice as well as the Goal and that of course is the essence of Sri Bhagwan’s Teaching.

Thank you so much for your brilliant post.
Anil 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 08, 2012, 08:31:49 AM
Dear Ramana,  :)

Ego and all other souls which you say exists, exists as yourself only, there is nothing 'other' than you. The sweetness of Sugar, the sugar, is also oneself alone.

(How are you able to say, ego still exists, by which light you were able to discern ego exists? there that very moment, it ceased to exist, there is no ego. You say ego exists, simply for the bliss of discernment, which is the light of the Self!)

still, I say, it is not the world that troubles us, it is oneself who troubles oneself. The broken marriages, people damaged by accidents, are all oneself alone. How are you able to experience the pain, when you are not hurt? it is within you.

(When you see the troubles of the world, the troubles of various people, it is your own pain which you experience, not really theirs, and, the natural response of compassion to them is for oneself alone, and, not really to them. The sweetness you experience when you taste sugar is your own, it is not really derived from the Sugar, it was already in you, you are the sugar)

The world is onself, the pains, the pleasures that we see, is our own, the pain that we experience by seeing 'out there' is our own, everything is within oneself. The demand for God to tell us answers is also our own. And the God that may tell us about the world is also oneself. The feel of separation from Self or God is ones own self as separation to experience the separation to experience the bliss of merging again.

All confusions and troubles raise from onself alone, Simply, for oneself to experience the bliss of looking beyond the confusions, beyond the problems, it is just the play of oneself, because, it is blissful for oneself. Oneself plays hide and seek with oneself.

oneself solves the problem for the bliss of solving the problem, so oneself alone creates the problem for the bliss of solving the problmes, just to enjoy the bliss of discernment, again and again and again...

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 08, 2012, 11:16:35 AM
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

I found the verse I referred to in Talks. The Verse was composed by The great Saint Nammalvar.The Verse given in Talks is as follows :

"I was in a maze, sticking to 'I' and 'mine'; I wandered without knowing my Self. On realising my Self I understand that I myself am You and that 'mine' (my possesions) is only You."

Sri Bhawan: Thus--you see--devotion is nothing more than knowing oneself.

Regards,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 08, 2012, 11:18:22 AM
Dear Devotees,

Devotee : How is God to be seen ?
Sri Bhagwan : Within. If the mind is turned inward God manifests as inner consciousness.
Devotee : God is in all—in all objects we see around us. They say we should see God in all of them.
Sri Bhagwan : God is in all and in seer. Where else can God be seen ? He cannot be found outside. He should be felt within. To see objects, mind is necessary. To conceive God in them is a mental operation. But that is not real. The consciousness within, purged of the mind, is felt as God.
                                                         Talk—244

Dear devotees, not only objects, but all feelings and all thoughts along with all objects are only mental conceptions. Why seeking inward ? Because He can be found only within. Externalisation and rise of ego, along with associated thoughts concerning everything else except the Self, go together. So, Sri Bhagwan says that conceiving God outside is mental operation.
So, Sri Bhagwan teaches that the highest praise or the greatest devotion to God is not that He is God and Supreme Lord of all creation, but THAT HE IS THE MOST BELOVED OF ALL, AS THE SELF IN THE HEART.
THE GREATNESS AND GLORY OF GOD AS GOD, THEREFORE, AT BEST, ARE THE MENTAL CONCEPTS, IN MAYA OR IN RELATIVITY. BUT SAT-CHIT-ANANDA—SWARUPA, AS THE SELF IS THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH, BEYOND MAYA.

Thank you,
  Anil   
   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 08, 2012, 12:43:22 PM
Dear Ramana,  :)

Ego and all other souls which you say exists, exists as yourself only, there is nothing 'other' than you. The sweetness of Sugar, the sugar, is also oneself alone.

(How are you able to say, ego still exists, by which light you were able to discern ego exists? there that very moment, it ceased to exist, there is no ego. You say ego exists, simply for the bliss of discernment, which is the light of the Self!)

still, I say, it is not the world that troubles us, it is oneself who troubles oneself. The broken marriages, people damaged by accidents, are all oneself alone. How are you able to experience the pain, when you are not hurt? it is within you.

(When you see the troubles of the world, the troubles of various people, it is your own pain which you experience, not really theirs, and, the natural response of compassion to them is for oneself alone, and, not really to them. The sweetness you experience when you taste sugar is your own, it is not really derived from the Sugar, it was already in you, you are the sugar)

The world is onself, the pains, the pleasures that we see, is our own, the pain that we experience by seeing 'out there' is our own, everything is within oneself. The demand for God to tell us answers is also our own. And the God that may tell us about the world is also oneself. The feel of separation from Self or God is ones own self as separation to experience the separation to experience the bliss of merging again.

All confusions and troubles raise from onself alone, Simply, for oneself to experience the bliss of looking beyond the confusions, beyond the problems, it is just the play of oneself, because, it is blissful for oneself. Oneself plays hide and seek with oneself.

oneself solves the problem for the bliss of solving the problem, so oneself alone creates the problem for the bliss of solving the problmes, just to enjoy the bliss of discernment, again and again and again...

Salutations to Bhagavan

What you say however much true it is is just a notion, just as the notion of the bhaktas that the ego and all the states of the mind are real. You may say that what I have said now again comes from me. But this just is a notion. This way we can continue this conversation forever. All notion, no matter how enlightened they seem are just notions. Even "I alone exist" is such one. It seems that your inclinations are towards buddhistic and advaitic way of thinking. It is splendid. But your understandings are not more accurate than those of the bhaktas.

You say that everything come from oneself but do you know this self? The self you are talking about is the ego. And Lord Ramana has said many times that when the ego, "I"-thought "exists" then all other things "exist". Bhaktas say at the final "Only the Lord exists", jnanis "All is Brahman", Lord Ramana says "Everything is the Self. The Self alone exists". They all talk about the Reality but what you point to is the ego. You say that one notion of the ego is more true than other. I humbly disagree. The purpose of all religions and philosophical systems is one - to quieten the mind and to help of the person to merge it with its Source.

Best wishes, ramana1359
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 08, 2012, 12:47:03 PM
Anil/Friends,
What God is and what he is not is not a matter for discussion or debate or a matter of concept.
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Quote
MASTER: "Jnana is the realization of Self through the process of 'Neti, neti', 'Not this, not
this'. One goes into samadhi through this process of elimination and realizes the Atman.
"But vijnana means Knowledge with a greater fullness. Some have heard of milk, some
have seen milk, and some have drunk milk. He who has merely heard of it is 'ignorant'. He
who has seen it is a jnani. But he who has drunk it has vijnana, that is to say, a fuller
knowledge of it. After having the vision of God one talks to Him as if He were an intimate
relative. That is vijnana.
"First of all you must discriminate, following the method of 'Neti, neti': 'He is not the five
elements, nor the sense-organs, nor the mind, nor the intelligence, nor the ego. He is
beyond all these cosmic principles.' You want to climb to the roof; then you must eliminate
and leave behind all the steps one by one. The steps are by no means the roof. But after
reaching the roof you find that the steps are made of the same materials―brick, lime, and
brick-dust―as the roof. It is the Supreme Brahman that has become the universe and its
living beings and the twenty-four cosmic principles. That which is Atman has become the
five elements. You may ask why the earth is so hard, if it has come out of Atman? All is
possible through the will of God. Don't you see that bone and flesh are made from blood
and semen? How hard 'sea-foam' becomes!
"After attaining vijnana one can live in the world as well. Then one clearly realizes that
God Himself has become the universe and all living beings, that He is not outside the
world."

I am sure that Sri Bhagavan has said this-that Self or God alone  is -It is what appears as the world and all living beings.To the jnani there is no such distinction as Absolute or Relative,etc.All is God .
One may think that calling God as 'God' has its limitation because it seems to be some unknown entity,far away;by the same yardstick to call him as 'self' is also a limitation as it seems to be too self centered a view that seems to be ignoring objective reality,like closing one's eyes and proclaiming that the world does not exist.

As long as the attention is on the 'substance'(poruL in Tamil)  referred to by the word and not 'idea' that the word may suggest-it is alright.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 08, 2012, 12:53:29 PM
Quote
As long as the attention is on the 'substance'(poruL in Tamil)  referred to by the word and not 'idea' that the word may suggest-it is alright.

Absolutely!
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 08, 2012, 12:54:05 PM

You say that everything come from oneself but do you know this self? The self you are talking about is the ego. And Lord Ramana has said many times that when the ego, "I"-thought "exists" then all other things "exist". Bhaktas say at the final "Only the Lord exists", jnanis "All is Brahman", Lord Ramana says "Everything is the Self. The Self alone exists". They all talk about the Reality but what you point to is the ego. You say that one notion of the ego is more true than other. I humbly disagree. The purpose of all religions and philosophical systems is one - to quieten the mind and to help of the person to merge it with its Source.

Dear Ramana,

you have no possibility of 'knowing' the self that I am talking about? can you? And, that what i point to is the ego, is your understanding, do you see this?

At all times, there is oneself, and there is no possibility of yourself knowing, what i am really pointing towards, it is you, in the end who defines me, it is your own understanding, that defines me, it is yourself, that even understands, defines, what somebody has to convey, i am, too, yourself!

Basically, when you or each one of us, either agree or disagree, we are only agreeing or disagreeing with ourselves alone!

:)

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 08, 2012, 01:16:27 PM
Quote
you have no possibility of 'knowing' the self that I am talking about? can you? And, that what i point to is the ego, is your understanding, do you see this?

Of course it is. But you again and again cannot feel and understand what I am talking about. I have no problem with what you say. I accept that and share your opinion. I will try this time to be even more specific:

1. You say that I am only, that all others are projections of my mind. Even true it doesn't matter. I feel that others exist and this is important now.
2. You, however much true you speak, are exteme. You say "Everything is oneself" and all other things are meaningless. If a devotee comes to you and ask you advice and you continue to tell him again and again "You are alone. You are this God" and he is not prone to that, he wants to surrender to the his own ideal of God you don't do much good. Lord Ramana has never done that. Then again you may say "But this devotee is an illusion. It is myself". Do you know that, do realize that? Is that your experience or you are just talking? That's my question. What are you talking about is your own experience or is it your belief? My observation is that no matter who ask for help you always give him/her one-sided advice "You are alone. Everything is you". What is more important - to tell always the truth or to help this man or woman?

I truly believe that you get well my point and you really understand that I don't want to judge you or teach you but I'd rather try to help you, no matter how right or wrong is my pointing.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 08, 2012, 01:33:25 PM
Dear Ramana,

At no time, i have said anywhere, that all else is meaningless. This i would like to correct.

Suppose, some person is scared of a Ghost pole, and because of fear towards ghost, refuses to go near it, what do you do? do we leave the person right where he is, for his belief is true to that moment? But, for such a person, initially, if somebody says, no it is not a ghost, ghost is unreal, it is just an ordinary pole, which itself seemed like a host, then it surely would seem extreme, for it would take time for the person to really see that it is not ghost and just an ordinary pole.

In the same way, I am not trying to thrust anything to you, it is certainly not my intention, i am just saying what is limited to my experience, and, if it may seem what i am conveying is like the ultimate truth, it is not wrong or fault, for i have also posted a post on a particular verse of Adi Shankaracharya, where he has said that just knowing the truth is not the end, but one has to constantly remain in meditation with it, constantly remain in identity with the truth that one has seen.

But even before this, it is important to 'know' that everything is oneself, that everything has really sprung from oneself, and oneself alone is the cause and effect of everything, but this is just one discernment, only when this is clear, ONE CAN TRULY MEDITATE, for until this is clear, that everything is just oneself, one will keep speculating, this or that, not like this, not like that, etc...

When you say, or we all say, that i'd rather try to help you, i too share the same belief, but with the sweetness of a discernment that by helping 'others' we are actually helping yourself, oneself alone, and that, that, we are helping others is only the real illusion. :)

I believe, if we, each one of us allow ourselves to be helped, unconditionally, it will just flow like the soft moving river.

To tell the truth itself is the Highest help to oneself (to others)

Sometimes, we get caught in the spiritual terms as they become a cliche, So, no matter, what i say, or for that matter, anybody, what ever they say, ultimately is going to be a cliche, that which is over used, unfortunately, truth is the same, and truth is not different.

:) best wishes, ahead.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 08, 2012, 01:36:47 PM
Friends,
Here is a very interesting and instructive story of Papa Ramdas as narrated by his disciple:

Quote
If anyone wants me to tell them something about Beloved Papa, I ask them to visualise what it would be like if, by some divine alchemy, Love and Bliss were to coalesce and stand before them as one luminous entity. That is how Papa can be seen with the naked eye.

Papa was indeed the very image of Love and Bliss divine. What was the source of that Love? When he opened out his heart to Ram, his eternal Beloved, Ram flooded his heart with never-ending, never-fading Love. This happened when Papa turned to his beloved Ram with pure devotion and utter self-surrender, turning his back on the world and the attractions it might hold for him. It was born of the realisation of his oneness with the Infinite and the Eternal Self. Every fibre of his being then thrilled to the sweet rhythm of Love. Bliss ineffable flowed over and saturated him, rising like an artesian spring from the heart's core when Papa realised the entire universe of name and form as the vibhuti or manifestation of the Self.

In the state of pure Bliss-consciousness he carried on his spiritual ministry till his last day on earth. Through his talks and actions he gave those who sought him a taste of the love and bliss divine. The purest pearls of wisdom that fell from his tips spread sweetness and light all round, dispelling gloom, fear and anxiety that held the people in a tight grip. Earnest seekers were lifted up to higher levels of consciousness, getting a glimpse of the true life of the Spirit, with the result that a deep yearning for that life was kindled in them. Papa's talks were often punctuated with jokes and laughter. The total impression left on the mind of the listener was never to be forgotten.

Once, to illustrate the futility of empty, theoretical advaitic knowledge, Papa narrated the following story. He was staying in a small mandir in Jhansi when a man approached him and asked, "Who are you?"

"I am Ramdas," he replied simply.

"No, you speak a lie there," returned his visitor. "You are Ram Himself. When you declare you are Ramdas, you do not know what you say. God is everything and in everything. He is in you and so you are He. Confess it right away.

"True, dear friend," Ramdas replied, "God is everything. But at the same time, it must be noted God is one, and when He is in you and everywhere around you, may I humbly ask to whom you are putting this question?"

After a little reflection, the man could only answer, "Well, I have put the question to myself ".

Papa always stressed the necessity of absolute honesty and sincerity as essential in the great Quest. Better an honest, dualistic bhakti than a hypocritical advaita. Whereas bhakti, however dualistic, will lead ultimately to jnana as jnana mata, the mother of jnana, advaita practised only with the head leads merely to confusion and hypocrisy.

Another incident illustrates this point well. When Papa was staying at Mount Abu he was taken to meet a "great saint", Swami Kaivalyananda, a young sannyasin living in a cave, his body completely shaved, but surrounded by a number of books.

Papa approached him and prostrated.

With a look of surprise, the sannyasin asked, "To whom are you offering this salutation?"

"To Ram," Papa replied.

"Who are you?"

"Ramdas. "

"Ramdas. Ramdas, funny, isn't it? There is only one Truth. Why do you assume this false duality?"

"It is Ram Himself, being One, who has chosen to be many. "

"Wrong," retorted the advaitin. "He is always One; many is false, illusion."

"Truth has become God and His devotee for the sake of lila, the divine play," Papa responded.

"Why play?"

"For love and bliss; so when Ramdas prostrates before you, it is yourself who do it in the form of Ramdas," Papa went on.

"Bosh!" cut in the sannyasin. "There is only one, never two." "Then to whom are you talking, dear Swamiji," asked Papa, pulling out his brahmastra.

The sannyasin reflected a while and had to reply, "To myself".

"Exactly. You assume there are two although in the light of absolute Truth there is only one."

"No, no--no realised person believes in duality," maintained the advaitin, getting jumpy. "Here, take this book and read it. You will understand things more clearly, I assure you. It is written by me." He pressed Papa to accept it. Noticing the author's name on the cover, Papa noted that he referred to himself as "Swami Kaivalyananda, M.A."!
(M.A refers to the college degree that Kaivalyananda had obtained and refers to Master of Arts.The poor man could not get over this vanity-Ravi)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Papa's life is an inspiration to all seekers as it is a perfect example of what self surrender means-not as it is talked but as it is lived.Papa's autobiography 'In quest of God' can be downloaded from this site:
http://www.anandashram.org/html/text.html (http://www.anandashram.org/html/text.html)
There is a wonderful sequel 'In the Vision of God' that is simply glorious-it reveals papa wandering the length and breadth of India as a jivanmukta-carefree in his joyous abandonment in God.A must read for all earnest devotees.Unfortunately no e-book version of this is available.

Namaskar.

Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 08, 2012, 04:51:53 PM
Dear Ravi,

nice story of Papa Ramdas, also, Papa acknowledged himself as a visishtadvaitin:

Papa: Ramdas is not a pure advaitin. He believes in the co-existence of dvaita and advaita. The jivanmukta retains a higher subtle individuality; he moves about and acts in the world realising that he and God are one. Ramdas in this body is active in doing things. Whatever he may do, he is at the same time conscious that he is the eternal and all-pervading Reality. So, in that state there is separation and unity simultaneously.



I had raised a topic on this subject some time back -----> Click Here (http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=6638.msg23136#msg23136) <-----

We are caught in this dilemma, rather unconsciously, friends, I am never condemning or speaking less about bhakthi any where, infact, if you look at my past posts, you could very well see a equal mix of bhakti and jnana, together. I firmly believe, non difference between both bhakthi and jnana.


Also, when Bhagavan said Bhakthi is Jnana Mathe, generally, the translation in english is as follows: "Bhakthi is the mother of Jnana" but to me, it is thus: "Bhakthi is Mother Jnana herself" and there is subtly a deep difference, in the way one looks at it.


This has been an age old debate, especially, between the Visishtadvaitins and Advaitins, both being at logger heads for over centuries, one trying to prove superiority over the other.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 08, 2012, 06:20:32 PM
Nagaraj,
I do not subscribe to these differences-I do not see them as one versus other.In fact this is why I like Sri Ramakrishna's teachings-He accepts all views as God cannot be reduced to fit into Darshanas.I accept all as Mahatmas and no one can claim that his view is the highest.It is the mind that looks for 'ultimate' or 'Highest' etc;the Heart does not care a straw for the 'ultimate'.

This is how Sri Ramakrishna expresses this-"Who can fully know the
infinite God? and what need is there of knowing the Infinite? Having attained this rare
human birth, my supreme need is to develop love for the Lotus Feet of God.
"If a jug of water is enough to remove my thirst, why should I measure the quantity of
water in a lake? I become drunk on even half a bottle of wine-what is the use of my
calculating the quantity of liquor in the tavern? What need is there of knowing the Infinite
?"

Again Sri Ramakrishna expresses the Dvaita,Visishtadvaita advaita aspects as follows:
Quote
"Rama asked Hanuman, 'Hanuman, what attitude do you cherish toward Me when you
worship Me?' Hanuman answered: 'Sometimes I see that You are the whole and I am a part;
sometimes I see that You are the Master and I am Your servant. But Rama, when I have the
Knowledge of Reality, then I find that You are I and I am You.'

For all practical purposes,let me ask -How many of us will not rush to Sri Ramanasramam if through some divine will Sri Bhagavan makes his appearance in flesh and blood again for a few days? We may see how Hanuman's attitude towards Sri Rama is the ideal one for all Sadhakas.

I also like this wonderful parable of Sri Ramakrishna-'The Dyer and his tub':
Quote
"A certain man had a tub. People would come to him to have their clothes dyed. The tub
contained a solution of dye. Whatever colour a man wanted for his cloth, he would get by
dipping the cloth in the tub. One man was amazed to see this and said to the dyer, 'Please
give me the dye you have in your tub.' "

All philosophical positions ,even if based on anubhuti, are necessarily partial only.None can say with finality what God is.Sri Ramakrishna expresses this wonderfully again:
Quote
"Parable of ant and sugar hill
"Men often think they have understood Brahman fully. Once an ant went to a hill of sugar.
One grain filled its stomach. Taking another grain in its mouth it started homeward. On its
way it thought, 'Next time I shall carry home the whole hill.' That is the way shallow minds
think. They don't know that Brahman is beyond one's words and thought. However great a
man may be, how much can he know of Brahman? Sukadeva and sages like him may have
been big ants; but even they could carry at the utmost eight or ten grains of sugar!
"As for what has been said in the Vedas and the Puranas, do you know what it is like?
Suppose a man has seen the ocean, and somebody asks him, 'Well, what is the ocean like?'
The first man opens his mouth as wide as he can and says: 'What a sight! What tremendous
waves and sounds!' The description of Brahman in the sacred books is like that. It is said in
the Vedas that Brahman is of the nature of Bliss - It is Satchidananda.
"Suka and other sages stood on the shore of this Ocean of Brahman and saw and touched
the water. According to one school of thought they never plunged into it. Those who do,
cannot come back to the world again.
Parable of salt doll
"In samadhi one attains the Knowledge of Brahman - one realizes Brahman. In that state
reasoning stops altogether, and man becomes mute. He has no power to describe the nature
of Brahman.
"Once a salt doll went to measure the depth of the ocean. (All laugh.) It wanted to tell
others how deep the water was. But this it could never do, for no sooner did it get into the
water than it melted. Now who was there to report the ocean's depth?"

I love Sri mAdhvacharya,Sri Ramanujacharya and Sri Sankaracharya.I do not consider any one of these as special or ultimate.

Namaskar.



Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 08, 2012, 06:26:15 PM
Dear Ravi, Nagaraj,

Sri Bhagavan used to handle this Visishtadvaitam, Dwaitam and Advaitam quarrels deftly.  He used to ask: What do all these say?
To attain atma sakshatkaram. Attain that and see. You will see that there are no differences.


Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 08, 2012, 06:53:36 PM
Dear Sri Ravi, Subramanian Sir,

I share the same views, across religions.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 09, 2012, 04:53:23 AM
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir and Sri Nagaraj Ji,

For the followers of 'Ramana Way', identification with the body is Dvaita and non-identification is Advaita.

Regards,
 Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 09, 2012, 05:02:14 AM
Dvaita, Visishtadvaita  and Advaita are philosophical terms in the relativity.Reality or the Self transcends or is beyond Dvaita, Visishtavaita and Advaita. However, as It is said to transcend Sat and asat, nevertheless it is Sat. As It is beyond light and darknness, all the same it is Light. Likewise, the Self is beyond Dvaita and Advaita, nevertheless It is Advaita.

Regards,
  Anil   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 09, 2012, 06:00:10 AM
Although Sri Bhagwan taught that dvaita consists in wrongly identifying the Self with the non-Self and Advaita is ceasing to do so, He did not advise Advaita in action. Sri Bhagwan says that non-dual idea is advised but not Advaita in action.

"How will one learn Advaita, if one does not find a master and receive instructions ? Is there not duality then ? That is the meaning." Sri Bhagwan

And hence the injunction.

Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 09, 2012, 06:54:34 AM
Anil,
"Likewise, the Self is beyond Dvaita and Advaita, nevertheless It is Advaita"

See how the mind is caught up in ideas!It is all the time setting some exotic goal so that it can perpetuate its seeking.It attaches itself to some grandiose idea and feels gratified.
The Jnani does not claim that he knows something 'Beyond'.All that he says is -'I see the same necklace that you see.You see the glitter and shape of the necklace.I see the plain Gold in  that."It is not to say that Gold is 'Beyond' the necklace.The Necklace is Gold.Does he deny that Gold cannot be shaped into necklace or ring,etc?No.

This is why it is said that God is at once Formless and yet He is all these forms manifested in the universe.

In Tamil the words are 'Mei PoruL'=Truth Substance(Gold in our analogy mentioned above),iRaivan=He who is 'Spread'(iRaithal-tamil)as the universe ,kadavuL=Transcendent being,Andavan=The one Beyond.

It is clear that God is all these and more.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 09, 2012, 07:18:04 AM
“As Iswara exists as the Self, meditating on the Self is devotion to the Supreme God.”
                                                      Sri Bhagwan 13, GVK, Edited by Sri David Godman

“Guru is the Self. Take Guru to be the Real Self and your self as the individual self. The disappearance of this sense of duality is removal of ignorance. So long as duality persists in you Guru is necessary. Because you identify yourself with the body you think the Guru, too, to be some body. YOU ARE NOT THE BODY, NOR IS THE GURU. YOU ARE THE SELF AND SO IS THE GURU. This knowledge is gained by what you call Self-Realisation.” Talk—282

Dear Sri Ravi.N,

And the methods, as you are aware, He pointed out to gain the Self-Realisation are Atma-Vichara or Self-enquiry and self-surrender. He even went on to elaborate that for one who feels vibhakti, there must be bhakti or devotion. So long as one feels separated, there must be a method of reunion (Yoga). Till the Source or the Self is reached , there is duality also in the Quest for the Truth as in bhakti or devotion.
Yes, dear Sri Ravi.N, for one who has reached the Source, or when the yogi has reunited with Him, or when the bhakta has won his God of devotion, there is no duality. For such one, there is no such distinction as Absolute or relative, etc. All is God. After all God is conceived in and by the Self which goes on to make it obvious that He is really one with the Self. Therefore, it follows that even during stage of sadhana, He is not different even now.

Sri Bhagwan teaches that if one is told to have devotion to God and he straightaway does so without further question or hesitation, it is all right. He will automatically become one with God. Sri Bhawan says, “BUT THERE IS ANOTHER KIND OF MAN WHO TURNS ROUND AND SAYS:’THERE ARE TWO, GOD AND ‘I’; BEFORE KNOWING GOD WHO IS FAR OFF, LET ME KNOW THE CLOSER ONE, MYSELF. FOR HIM THE QUEST IS PRESCRIBED. REALLY DEVOTION AND QUEST ARE THE SAME.’” 

You have observed in your post that what God is and what He is not is not a matter for discussion or debate or a matter of concept. No, we are certainly not discussing what God is and what He is not. We are doing Self-enquiry and even self-surrender corresponding to our progress in the Vichara. For Sri Bhagwan teaches that as one progresses in Vichara he automatically goes on surrendering to that extent. We are practicing Vichara  to know the closer one, i.e. the Self which is effulgent in the Heart as ‘I’-‘I’( as Sri Bhagwan has taught) rather than knowing God who is far off.

Moreover, dear Sri Ravi.N, it is worth mention here that Sri Bhagwan says that this Quest- Self-enquiry or Atma-Vichara ( as taught by Him)  is the Great Yoga—Maha Yoga because all the Yogas are included in the Quest.
“That Yoga in which one sees the Self, which is Me, the one immaculate and eternal bliss, is considered to be Maha Yoga pertaining to the Supreme Lord.”
                               2.11.7, Kurma Purana

Thank you,
   Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 09, 2012, 07:40:32 AM
anil,
"We are practicing Vichara  to know the closer one, i.e. the Self which is effulgent in the Heart as ‘I’-‘I’( as Sri Bhagwan has taught) rather than knowing God who is far off. "

I understand this.All that I am saying is that 'Close' and 'Far off' are also ideas.No seeker is trying to seek a God that is 'Far off'.
All ways are the same-they help to quiet the mind, and the quiet mind experiences Love and peace -God.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 09, 2012, 08:33:32 AM
Anil/Friends,
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Quote
MASTER: "Just try to find out who this 'I' is. While you are searching for 'I', 'He' comes
out. 'I am the machine and He is the Operator.'

This is a very key tip off.Just what is the significance of this wonderful saying of Sri Ramakrishna?
I have seen discussions ,often endless and inconclusive about Self-Enquiry and how it is practised by different devotees in David Godman's wonderful Blog(I warmly recommend that site to all devotees.David is indeed a Blessed child of Sri Bhagavan!).Often these discussions centred around how to hold onto the 'I' thought to the exclusion of other thoughts(one of the description was 'Fiercely'-and this seemed to be favoured by most of the partcipants).
In general,it is understood that one is after the 'I' as one would look for a thief,and in the process the thief would disappear.
Now what Sri Ramakrishna is pointing out is -Do not forget that you are after the treasure and not the thief!Just be open to the treasure and then you may not have to look for the thief!Looking for the thief is a ploy to come by the treasure.It is the Treasure that you are interested in and not the thief.Then the treasure will possess you!

Namaskar.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 09, 2012, 10:16:49 AM
What Advaitins say is that no matter you want it or not one day you will go into complete nonduality. But what about bhaktas who want to be with the Lord forever in visishtadvaita? Some advaitins say that the sleep and death take "your God away, where is He now, hm?" Nondualists say that only nonduality exists but is that the Only Reality or "their" view from Absolute position they are in?

What is "jivamukta"?
1. One who has realized He is not the body and has realized Brahman but:
 1.1. They can be forever in visishtadvaita with Him
 1.2. They merge with Him, Being Him

or

2. One who has realized that Only and Only the Self exist beyond experiencial duality?

For me definitions jivanmukta is one who is in constant happiness. What is your opinion?

Lord Ramana always give very interesting and lovely statements :). I would appreciate if Sri Ravi gives his opinion based on Bhagavan Ramakishna's views.

(http://www.lovingsilence.org/assets/album_photos/851f5ac9941d720844d143ed9cfcf60a_980eda9a420ab08979793308458680a8.jpg)(http://www.ramakrishna-vivekananda-bg.info/PICTURES-I/Ramakrishna-I-1.jpg)(http://www.muktinath.org/images/hinduismfolder/shiva.jpg)(http://www.friendsoftheway.com/header/Home/jesus/santafaz-info.jpg)(http://www.stephen-knapp.com/images/Krishna302.jpg)(http://www.dollsofindia.com/dollsofindiaimages/hindu-posters/lord-rama-QO88_l.jpg)
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 09, 2012, 11:04:05 AM

Quote
I understand this.All that I am saying is that 'Close' and 'Far off' are also ideas.No seeker is trying to seek a God that is 'Far off'.
All ways are the same-they help to quiet the mind, and the quiet mind experiences Love and peace -God.

Sri Ravi, it reminds me about a verse in the Quran where it is said that Allah is closer to man than his jugular vein. Jesus has said that He is in people, Vedanta tells us that He is in us. But nobody listens. God is transcendent but immanent too says Isha Upanishad. God is everywhere. But nobody listens. Self-inquiry is just looking for God within us (seeking the Kingdom of Heaven which is within as Lord Jesus said).
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 09, 2012, 02:11:51 PM
Dear Ramana,

Who is a Jivan Mukta?  One who has realized the Self while in body. Since Realization is Sat Chit Anandam, he is ever
in peace. Sri Bhagavan used to say that Peace is another name for Mukti. In Sri Ramana Gita also, He says, while
defining a Jivan Mukta, as the one who is ever in peace.

Advaita is an experience. It is not an -ism. Hence,  to a Jnani who has experienced the Self, the discussions about various
-isms do not attract him.

About body? He has no identification with the body. When it is time, he leaves the body like a serpent leaving its withered
outer skin.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 09, 2012, 09:38:53 PM
Ramana,

You have asked:
Quote
What Advaitins say is that no matter you want it or not one day you will go into complete nonduality. But what about bhaktas who want to be with the Lord forever in visishtadvaita? Some advaitins say that the sleep and death take "your God away, where is He now, hm?" Nondualists say that only nonduality exists but is that the Only Reality or "their" view from Absolute position they are in?

What is "jivamukta"?
1. One who has realized He is not the body and has realized Brahman but:
 1.1. They can be forever in visishtadvaita with Him
 1.2. They merge with Him, Being Him

or

2. One who has realized that Only and Only the Self exist beyond experiencial duality?

Jivan-Mukta is one who is completely surrendered to God and hence totally free from Ego and its concommitants Fear and Desire.

All this Dvaita,Visishtadvaita,advaita is needless hairsplitting .Let us say that Fire is there.
Dvaita advocate says that a spark cannot be equated to  fire-All jivas are sparks of one fire.Atma =Spark and Paramatma =Fire.
Visishtadvaita advocates say that Spark is part and parcel of Fire;It is fire yet a part of the Fire.
Advaita advocates say that there is only Fire and Fire alone.

So,it is clear that all are the same.There have been Jeevanmuktas in all the three categories.All these are Great Sages and saints.
Example :The Great Saint Raghavendra is a dvaitin;The Great Nammalwar is visishtadvaitin;Sri Sankara is a Advaitin.
We only need to remember that God is one only and all these Great ones despite all seeming outer differences realized the same Sat Chit Ananda.

You ask what Sri Ramakrishna says.He admits all the above as valid.This is what he says:
Quote
I have practised all the
disciplines; I accept all paths. I respect the Saktas, the Vaishnavas, and also the Vedantists.
Therefore people of all sects come here. And everyone of them thinks that I belong to his
school.

I will post more on this later.

Namaskar.



Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on April 09, 2012, 09:46:35 PM
Thank you, Sri Ravi. I have not problem with philosophies. What troubles me is that one school tries to discredit the others and this makes me sad. You know what I mean. I can give very known examples as Sri Srila Prabhupada and most of the christians. vaishnavas and muslims. I am waiting for your continuation eagerly.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 09, 2012, 10:32:16 PM
Ramana,
Quote
"What troubles me is that one school tries to discredit the others and this makes me sad. You know what I mean. I can give very known examples as Sri Srila Prabhupada and most of the christians. vaishnavas and muslims. I am waiting for your continuation eagerly."

I am totally with you on this.Our Holy Mother Sri Sarada Devi,Consort of Sri Ramakrishna says so simply and Beautifully-'Uncle Moon is everbody's uncle';Likewise God is God for all.All of us share the same sun,the same moon,the same stars;We all breathe same air and drink the same water.How can it be any different with God.Lord Jesus,Prophet Muhammed,Lord Buddha,Lord Sri Krishna -all have spoken the same Truth.The language may be different,the Customs and observances may be different-yet the spirit is same.
Sri Ramakrishna practised all religions-He practised Christianity and had direct vision of lord Jesus;he practised Islam and said NamAz 5 times a Day and during this period he just did not step inside the Kali temple!He Practised Tantra Sadhana(some of the most esoteric and exotic variety),Practised vaishnava Sadhana,and advaita sadhana-Name it and he has done it,not just in theory or principle but actually..This is the reason that his words carry extraordinary power-the power of Truth.

I will post on sri Ramakrishna in the Rough Note Book-Open Forum.

I truly enjoyed the pictures that you have posted.Harmony of Religions is the special message that sri Ramakrishna gave to this faction torn world,and he just lived his message.

I should also say that The Sage of Kanchi ,despite coming in the tradition of advaita Vedanta respects all Religions and philosophical Systems.All Great ones,despite their emphasis on one System(This is needed by the people),have a healthy respect for Truth and Other Great ones.We can take heart from this.The Sage of Kanchi used to advise all christians who came to him enthused by the Philosophy of Advaita -Learn the Bible thoroughly and abide by the teachings of the Bible-Advaita is not something exclusive to Hindus!If one truly practises the Teachings of Lord Jesus,the Christ,nothing more is needed.
I love Jesus ,The Christ and his words of power-Like this:
'Heaven and Earth may pass away but my words  shall in no wise pass away'
"The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head"-What renunciation!!!
"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God"

All so wonderful and thoroughly inspiring and what power behind these sayings!

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 09, 2012, 11:16:34 PM
Ramana,
 you have asked:
Quote
"What Advaitins say is that no matter you want it or not one day you will go into complete nonduality. But what about bhaktas who want to be with the Lord forever in visishtadvaita? Some advaitins say that the sleep and death take "your God away, where is He now, hm?" Nondualists say that only nonduality exists but is that the Only Reality or "their" view from Absolute position they are in?"

To answer your query,quite simply-I do not agree with the above view.The reason is that this statement is based on duality!Nondual truth cannot be arrived at.It is ever present and if a person like Bhagavan can live on earth in Nondual truth ,what prevents him from continuing in a subtle body in another world!We can see the fallacy of this statement(From the perspective of absolute).The absolute is not opposed to the Relative!

In fact it is interesting to see what sri Bhagavan says(an excerpt from 'Letters from Sri Ramanasramam'):
Quote
4th April, 1948
(171) KAILASA

This morning a devotee brought an old copy of the Peria
Puranam and gave it to Bhagavan. Reading the story about
Sundaramurti going to Kailasa, Bhagavan said, “It seems that
Letters from Sri Ramanasramam 379
Sundaramurti found that after his own arrival, the Chera Raja
had arrived on horseback almost immediately. The Raja asked
him, ‘How did you come here without my calling’?” So saying
Bhagavan read a verse from it. A Tamil youth, who was
present, said, “Where is that Kailasa, Swami?” “Kailasa! It is
at the very place where we are. First of all, tell me where we
are?” said Bhagavan.
That’s not it, Swami. The Kailasa of which you have
just read, that Sundaramurti had gone to; does it really exist?
If so, where is it? Please favour me with a proper reply,
” said
the young man.
“I have told you already,” said Bhagavan. “We have come
here now. From here we will go to some other place. If all
this is true, then that also is true. There, also, a Swami will
be found seated on a raised pedestal. Just like this there will
be devotees around. They ask something; he replies
something. That will also be like this. If you look at the thing
from the point of view of the body, that is how it is. If, however,
you look at it from the point of view of truth, wherever we
are, it is Kailasa. There is no question of its being born or
growing or dying. When we realize that there is nothing
real in this world, Kailasa is everywhere
.”

We imagine that to perceive the nondual truth ,all forms should vanish!It need not be.Nondual means indivisble whole.We see our body with all the parts like legs,hands,stomach,face ,eyes-all form a whole -the Body.To perceive the Body as an integral whole we do not have to get rid of hands or legs or stomach,etc.Just that we perceive it as a whole and not as aggregation of individual limbs.

In principle there can be no objection to a Bhakta who wants to be sitting and looking at Lord Jesus Christ for all eternity(The preference of Dvaitins!)!Provided the Lord permits it!

Namaskar.







Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 10, 2012, 07:45:54 AM
Friends,
A gem of a poem by mahAkavi BhArati(Excuse me ,it is off topic but I thought that it will not be out of place here):

அக்னிக் குஞ்சொன்று கண்டேன்
அதை அங்கோர் காட்டிலோர் பொந்திடை வைத்தேன்
வெந்து தணிந்தது காடு
தழல் வீரத்தில் குஞ்சென்றும் மூப்பென்றுமுண்டோ.

A spark of fire did I see
In the forest, I hid it in the hollow of a tree
Burnt to a cinder was the forest.
In its rage, is there
a difference between a spark or a blaze?

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 10, 2012, 08:00:36 AM
Dear Sri Ravi,

:) what a way to begin the day, please keep posting Bharathiyar poems as and when you can. What fire in his words! What energy in his words.

I just wished he lived some more years :)

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 10, 2012, 09:19:05 AM
Vchara is the process and the goal also. “I AM” is the goal and the final Reality. To hold to it with effort is Vichara. When spontaneous and natural it is Realisation.
                                                                                         Sri Bhagwan

Dear Sri Ravi.N

Quote
“All ways are the same-they help to quiet the mind, and the quiet mind experiences Love and peace -God.”

Yes, aim of all ways is only to quieten the mind. Sri Bhagwan says that Peace is our real nature. Contrary ideas are only superimpositions. This is true bhakti, true yoga, and true jnana. 
Dear Sri Ravi.N, we may say that this is acquired by practice, but truth is that only erroneous notions are shed off by the practice. That is all. Sri Bhagwan says that our true nature always persists.

Quote:
“Now what Sri Ramakrishna is pointing out is -Do not forget that you are after the treasure and not the thief!Just be open to the treasure and then you may not have to look for the thief!Looking for the thief is a ploy to come by the treasure.It is the Treasure that you are interested in and not the thief.Then the treasure will possess you!”

Dear Sri Ravi.N, I humbly wish to say that Vichara, as taught by Sri Bhagwan, is subjective, and not objective. Therefore, it cannot and need not be shown by anyone.
Sri Bhagwan : Is it necessary to show anyone the way inside his own house ? If the seeker keeps his mind still, that will be enough.
Besides, dear Sri Ravi.N, an answer that comes in by the mind is no answer at all. THE ANSWER. SAYS SRI  BHAGWAN, IS THE EXPERIENCE OF THE EGOLESS STATE.

Before enquiry is setup, before the Great Quest is launched, it is imperative, in my view, to have an intellectual and a little intuitive understanding of what one is up to.
First, it is proper, perfectly in order of things, to analyse the ego-sense and separate the real from the unreal, for we are aware that ego has an element of reality mixed up in it, NAMELY THE LIGHT OF CONSCIOUSNESS, MANIFEST AS ‘I AM’. This ‘I AM’, teaches Sri Bhagwan, is real, because it is the part that is constant and unchanging. Sri Bhagwan says that we need to reject the unreal part, the sheaths or bodies, and take the remainder, the pure ‘I AM’ .
Sri Bhagwan: Your duty is to be, and not to be this and that.

This ‘I AM’, dear Sri Ravi.N, is the GREATEST CLUE TO FINFINDING THE REAL SELF. By holding on to this clue, teaches Sri Bhagwan, we can certainly and surely reach the Self.
It is well known that He often compared the seeker of the Self to a dog seeking his master. The dog has nothing but the master’s scent to guide him. By following the scent, leaving everything else, he ultimately finds his master.

Dear Sri Ravi.N, ‘The ‘I AM’ in the ego-sense is exactly like the master’s scent for the dog. SRI BHAGWAN SAYS THAT ‘I AM’ IS THE ONLY CLUE THE SEEKERS OF TRUTH HAS FOR FINDING THE SELF. BUT NEVERTHELESS, IT IS AN INFALLIBLE CLUE.

Well, Sri Bhagwan says that the Self is known to everybody but not clearly. We always exist. The Be-ing is the Self. Sri Bhagwan says that when ‘I AM’ which is within the awareness of everybody, alone is, It is Absolute Existence.
‘I’-‘I’ is the Self. We are aware that this shining is always there. Well, Sri Bhagwan says that if the ‘I’ is kept alone it is the Self; when it flies at a tangent and says ‘this’ it is the ego.

Dear Sri Ravi.N, in my view, VICHARA AS TAUGHT BY SRI BHAGWAN IS HOLISTIC.  For instance, can there be ever a greater clue than what Sri Bhagwan has Himself, out of love and compassion, given to the seekers of Truth ?

Thank you,
   Anil   


     


Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 10, 2012, 10:13:33 AM
Anil,
I have no disagreement with you.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 10, 2012, 01:39:02 PM
Dear all,

What is total surrender or Self surrender?  Let us see a few instances in Sri Bhagavan's life.

1. When Venkataraman arrived at Tiruvannamalai on Sept 1, 1896, he went embraced Arunachaleswara Lingam.  He came out.
Some barber asked whether He would like to have a tonsure. He simply said Yes.

2. Rains came on that September mid morning,. Unexpected rains! For people who deem it fit that Venkataraman should have
a bath, the answer is rains have bathed Him.

3. He tore His dhoti. He took a piece and wore it as a coupina.  HE DID NOT KEEP ANOTHER PORTION FOR AN ALTERNATIVE
COUPINA.

4. He threw away the sweetmeats given by Muthukrishna Bhagavatar's sister on the previous day. HE DID NOT KEEP IT. HE
NEVER THOUGHT: OKAY, I SHALL KEEP THIS TO EAT WHEN I GET HUNGRY BY 4 PM.

5. He threw away the remaining annas and paises. HE DID NOT KEEP THE CHANGE FOR HIS NIGHT DINNER. HE NEVER EVEN
THOUGHT ABOUT IT.

Now. No place to go and rest. No source for next time food. No water to drink.

THIS IS TOTAL SURRENDER.  He had kept the small fire (Agni kunju) in His Heart. The fire grew big and burnt all the desires in Him. (vendhu thaNinthathu kAdu.)

Sri Bhagavan Himself has once said that He lost every thing excepting the fire burning in Him.
 
Arunachala Siva,.           
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 10, 2012, 03:04:32 PM
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Ji. Yes. Thank you so much, sir. Experience of 'I AM' is "JUST BE". Silence is 'I'. As you said, 'I AM' alone (Sri Bhagwan is the Space of Pure Consciousness--'I AM') is self-surrender.

Regards,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 10, 2012, 08:44:36 PM
Subramanian/Friends,

Verse 7 of Nava MaNi MAlai:

Quote
aNNAmalaiyAi aDi yenai Anda vanRe Avi-yudal
konDAi ennakkOr kuRai-yundO!kuRaiyunGuNamum nee yalAl
eNNen ivaRRai yennuyire ennam eduvO adhu seivAi
kaNNE undran kazhal-inaiyiR kAdhal perukke taru-vAye!

As aNNAmalai ,That very day  Thou took possession of soul and Body ,taking charge of this serf, ;
Do I lack anything?Other than Thee, Flaw and  Virtue -These I count Not,Oh My Life!
Do as Thou willeth,Oh Beloved! To Thine Twin Feet,Grant only Abundant  Love!

Sri Bhagavan gives the key to SaranAgathi-When Love Supreme wells up there is saranAgathi.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 11, 2012, 07:26:27 AM
Quote:
“Do as Thou willeth,Oh Beloved! To Thine Twin Feet,Grant only Abundant Love!

Sri Bhagavan gives the key to SaranAgathi-When Love Supreme wells up there is saranAgathi.”

Dear Sri Ravi,

Ji. Yes. Thank you so much. Sri Bhagwan says that love means one has love towards one’s own Self. When we talk of love, there is duality—the person who loves and the entity called God is loved. But Sri Bhawan says that the individual is not separate from God. Hence, love means love for one’s own Self.
Sri Bhagwan says that man loves money most, but he loves his son more than the money, his own body more than his son, his indriyas more than the body, the eye most among the organs, life more than the eyes, prana or life more than the body, and Self more than even life itself.
SRI BHAGWAN SAYS THAT A MAN WHO DESIRES TO HAVE THE BLISS OF THE SELF  WOULD BE READY TO EVEN LOSE HIS LIFE, IF NECESSARY. THEREFORE, SELF IS LOVED EVEN MORE THAN THE LIFE ITSELF.
Dear Sri Ravi, Sri Bhagwan says very significantly that the IDEA OF A PERSON IN LOVING GOD IS ONLY WITH A VIEW TO BEING HAPY HIMSELF. But God is the embodiment of happiness. Hence who else is to be loved ? LOVE ITSELF IS GOD, SAYS SRI BHAGWAN.

Sri Bhawan says that if by saying, ‘I do not love this; I do not love that’, one rejects all things, that which remains is SWARUPA, I.E. THE INNATE SELF. That is Pure Bliss. That is devotion, that is Realisation and that is everything.

The above implies that first a person loves what is good. That means one must first love and then reject the thing one loves. If, in this manner, one goes on rejecting everything, what remains is the Self alone.
This is the real love.
ONE WHO KNOWS THE SECRET OF THAT LOVE FINDS THE WORLD ITSELF FULL OF UNIVERSAL LOVE.

Dear Sri Ravi, yes, when Love Supreme wells up, there is saranAgathi.

Thank you,
  Anil     
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 11, 2012, 07:54:01 AM
Anil,
We only need to ask ourselves-Do we require explanation for Love?Do we need thoughts to describe Love.The Beauty of Love is that it is causeless and quells thoughts all at once,immediately without any process.
Even in ordinary Parlance Love Gives itself and accepts even suffering!Love is beyond suffering and Happiness as it is understood in common parlance.It is what makes Ranti Deva pray to the Lord (in Srimad Bhagavatham)that the entire suffering of all beings in the world be transferred to him!
Love is when thoughts cease.
This is how Sri Ramakrishna says so simply:
Quote
"In the kirtan the devotee first sings, 'Nitai amar mata hati.' As the devotional mood
deepens, he simply sings, 'Hati! Hati!' Next, all he can sing is 'Hati'. And last of all he
simply sings, 'Ha!' and goes into samadhi. The man who has been singing all the while then
becomes speechless
."
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 11, 2012, 08:58:22 AM
Dear Friends,

Thirumoolar revealed ages ago in his Thirumandiram, Anbe Sivam (love or compassion, itself is Sivam)

When we try to describe this love, it is verily an attempt to describe the attribute-less, the Brahman, the Atmam, which is beyond the grasp of mind.

Another name for Atma, Self, is love or compassion.

What is conveyed by Ananda in Sat Chit Ananda, is this very love, or, compassion.

When we read books about Bhagavan or Ramakrishna, immersed in bliss, it is immersed in this Anandam, this love, perennial   flow. I, once again, reflect here, with these thoughts, about the unlimitedness of the moment.

So long we are limited to the moment, the love, the compassion, that we reflect would be limited before the massiveness or the unlimited ness of the moment or the Self. So long the difference between the moment and me exists, so long difference exists.

But, it is frightening (perhaps?) to jump into the moment, like Sri Ravi mentioned elsewhere, are we (salt) willing to jump into the ocean and get lost? for ever? are we truly ready to become the ocean? the moment? the Self? the love? the compassion? i reflect in wonder....

Anbe Sivam
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 11, 2012, 01:30:21 PM
Dear all,

Perumal Swami after giving endless trouble to Sri Bhagavan and the Asramam, finally gave up, soon became sick and was dying.
Sri Bhagavan had arranged to send some ganji to him where he was staying.  He once told Sri Bhagavan, before his death:
I am sure to go to hell (for all that I have done to you). Sri Bhagavan said: Do not worry. I shall be there to help you out.

(I do not remember  the exact conversation and this is what that had been exchanged.)

Sri Bhagavan proved Himself to be the Self that is Love with these words.

Again His treatment of the egg that had the shell slightly broken, when it was mistakenly dropped while  touching the bamboo beams.

His treatment of nondi paiyan - the lame monkey.

His offer to the swarm of bees, His left thigh, which had disturbed the nest.

His acceptance of orange juice from wife of Dr. P.V. Karamchandani, the doctor who was attending to Him on the last day.

Arunachala Siva. 
 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 11, 2012, 07:10:54 PM
Dear Sri Ravi,

Yes, the Love Sri Bhagwan speaks of is beyond thoughts and speech, for Self is Love, Love is God.  And love we speak of, love for an object, Sri Bhagwan says, is of an inferior order and cannot endure (Talk—433). However, so long as ego is in charge, words and thoughts are inescapable, as we all are aware. Self, Love, Bhakti and Jnana are a matter of experience and not for words. Non-duality is not a vada but EXPERIENCE.
Self is Love. Love is God. Therefore, it follows that Rasa, Ananda, Peace, Bliss are all names for the Self. Sri Bhagwan says that TO REALISE PEACE, OR BLISS, OR LOVE, ONE REALISES THE SELF.

Thank you,
  Anil 

Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 12, 2012, 07:39:11 AM
Those whose hearts are habitually focussed devoutly on the feet of God, like a magnetic needle that always aligns itself to point to the north, will not get mentally perplexed and lose their bearings in the world, that sea of desires and attachments.
                                                            V. 734, GVK, Edited By Sri David Godman

Dear Devotees,
Even if the devoutly focussed is led astray by the thought force, his attention is led back to be riveted to the Feet of the Lord by the sheer force of his devotion and Grace, much like the magnetic needle that is always aligned to point to north.
Dear devotees, Sri Bhagwan says that complete surrender to God means giving up all thoughts and concentrating the mind on Him. If our attention is devoutly focussed, or if we concentrate on the Feet of the Lord, other thoughts disappear. This, Sri Bhagwan says, means that the actions of the mind, speech and body are merged with  God, all the burdens of our life will be only on Him.
Dear devotes, we do not calculate or estimate at every step as we walk on the ground—whether we should raise one leg after the other etc. Walking is done automatically. So also with the inhaling and exhaling—no special effort is made to either inhale or exhale. SRI BHAGWAN SAYS THAT THE SAME IS THE CASE WITH THE LIFE ALSO. CAN WE GIVE UP ANYTHING IF WE WANT TO OR DO ANYTHING AS WE PLEASE ? I think that most of us must have arrived by now at the wisdom—certainly not.

Sri Bhagwan, however, says that before one surrenders, one should know who is it that one surrenders. Unless all thoughts are given up, there cannot be surrender. Obviously, when all thoughts are given up, if there are no thoughts, what remains is the Self. Therefore, surrender will be only to one’s Self.
Sri Bhagwan says that if surrender is in terms of Bhakti, attention is devoutly focussed and burdens are thrown on Him. And if surrender is in terms of Karma, karma should be performed without the sense of doership until one knows one’s Self.

The result is the same in either case.

HENCE, SURRENDER, AS REVEALED BY MAHA GURU BHAGWAN SRI RAMANA,  MEANS TO ENQUIRE AND KNOW ABOUT ONE’S OWN SELF AND THEN REMAIN IN THE SELF. WHAT IS THERE APART FROM THE SELF, HE ASKS.

Thank you,
  Anil
     
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 12, 2012, 07:00:34 PM
Devotee: Swami, how can people like us be saved from our materialistic outlook? If we ask, you will surely say, ‘It is enough if you go on with Self-enquiry—who am I?’ How is that possible for us who are family people and our respective jobs? If the mind goes on with worldly affairs, how can we get peace of mind?

Dear Devotees,

Sri Bhagwan simply remained silent and didn’t reply to the above question. Next day when an Asramite referring to Sri Bhagwan’s Silence over the quoted question of the devotee asks, “ Why Bhagwan ? Does it mean that no one can become a Realized Soul, a Jnani, unless he lives in a solitary place like that?
Sri Bhagwan : Who said that ? The nature of the mind is determined by its former actions, its samskaras. People are able to continue to do all their work and yet pursue their Self-enquiry and ultimately become Realized Souls. Janaka, Vasishta, Rama, Krishna and others like them, are examples of this. Again, for some it would appear impossible to do this and they have to go to solitary places to become Realized Souls through SELF-ENQUIRY. Of these, Sanaka, Sanandana, Suka, Vamdeva, are amongst the examples.  SELF-ENQUIRY IS ESSENTIAL FOR WHOMEVER IT MAY BE. It is called human effort. The course of our body follows according to our fate. WHAT MORE CAN WE SAY ABOUT IT?
                                  Source: Letters From Sri Ramanasramam

THE GURU SAYS THAT THE SELF-ENQUIRY IS ESSENTIAL FOR WHOMEVER HE MAY BE.

Thank you,
  Anil   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 13, 2012, 08:26:14 AM
Dear Devotees,

Shining is always there. Is it not ? ‘I am this’ or ‘I am that’ is the ego. The ego is not, or at best transitory, but shining is always there.

How is one to know the Self ?
The most important is to understand the question as to who is to know the Self. Can the body know It? Sri Bhagwan says, “Let the body answer. Who says that the body is perceived now ?”
Sri Bhagwan asks, “Can you say that you do not know the Self ?”
Dear devotees, Knowing or seeing the Self is being the Self. Though we cannot see our own eyes and even if not provided with a mirror, we do not deny the existence of our eyes. Similarly, says Sri Bhagwan that we are aware of the Self even though the Self is not objectified. OR, DO WE DENY OUR SELF BECAUSE IT IS NOT OBJECTIFIED AS BODY, OBJECTS AND WORLD, ETC.?

Therefore, dear devotees, when we say that ‘we cannot know the Self’, it means only ABSENCE OF KNOWLEDGE OF THE SELF IN TERMS OF RELATIVE OR OBJECTIVE KNOWLEDGE.  BECAUSE WE ARE SO MUCH USED TO THE RELATIVE KNOWLEDGE OR OBJECTIVE KNOWLEDGE THAT WE IDENTIFY OURSELVES WITH IT. Do we not?  Such wrong identification has forged the difficulty of not knowing the obvious Self because it cannot be objectified.
Who is to know the Self ?
Answer: Can the body know It ?
SHINING IS ALWAYS THERE . Silence is always there even in the absence of mind and intellect, say in deep sleep. SILENCE IS ‘I’. That silence, that ‘I’ is always there. DO WE NOT KNOW IT ?

Dear devotees, this, in my view, is a great clue to return HOME the way we came.

Thank you,
  Anil
   

   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 13, 2012, 09:19:08 AM
Anil,
Thanks very much.Perhaps you may like to use the convenient features -see the characters marked B I U ,etc below the 'Post Reply 'Frame.You may be able to either make the characters Bold or in Italics-those that you want to emphasize.In case you want to quote Sri Bhagavan,you may use the quote key,next to the # figure in the second row.All one needs to do is to click at both the ends of the passage that one wants to highlight(it will be highlighted)and then click the buttons B or I or 'Quote' symbol.Just try experimenting and use the preview to see how the message will show up.After you are reasonably satisfied ,you may click the post key to post it.These are some very good features offered here.Just give it a try.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 13, 2012, 09:41:02 AM
Dear Sri Anil,

yes, that would be great if you are able to highlight poignant quotes.

Dear devotees, this, in my view, is a great clue to return HOME the way we came.

I felt, this is not just a clue to return home the way we came, but it subtly indicates, we already in our home, only we peak outside, by putting our heads outside the window.

Friends, in this regard, please watch this ---->CLICK HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlaE0hcmd0Y&feature=related)<----


For the benefit of other new members, those who are interested to watch the entire documentary on Bodhidharma teachings, may ---->CLICK HERE (http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=6657.msg23251#msg23251)<---- for the links.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 13, 2012, 06:08:03 PM
Dear Sri Ravi and Sr Nagaraj,

Thank you so much.

Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 13, 2012, 06:16:18 PM
Dear Sri Udai,

Yes. Thank you so much. For me, Sri Bhagwan's Teaching on the one hand, and Enquiry and Surrender, as taught by Him on the other, are my two eyes.

Thank you,
    Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 14, 2012, 11:38:34 AM
Quote;
"I felt, this is not just a clue to return home the way we came, but it subtly indicates, we already in our home, only we peak outside, by putting our heads outside the window."

Dear Sri Nagaraj,

Yes, we are ever what we are looking for. There is One only. Sri Muruganar sings:
In this Kings’s Presence where prevails
Mind-transcending Silence which reveals
One’s own true Self as Siva’s splendour vast,
Seekers of Awareness find at last
Their journey’s end.
                          Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai

Again:
What is this “I” that rises from within?
Only a thought that like a bubble floats
Up to the troubled surface of Awareness.
In sleep the sea is still, no bubble rises,
Then too you are and are aware you are.
You are not the “I” that rises and sets,
You are the sole Awareness in the All,
The eternal, uncreated light of Being.
                     V. 1048, Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai

Dear Sri Nagaraj, when there is no rise as phenomena, i.e. when there is no rise as jiva or the ego-mind, even then, still, we are aware WE ARE. What is That which remains AWARE ? Why after deep sleep, where no bubble rises, we still feel that our existence is for-ever, we intuitively know that there is no break in our existence? The great clue is there is One Unitary Consciousness and that is the Self-Consciousness.
Dear Sri Nagaraj, it is not for nothing that Sri Bhagwan teaches that one is ever realised. That, in my view, is also a very important clue in Ramana Way.
So, we admit that we exist even in the absence of mind-intellect, say in sleep.
How did we know that we existed even during sleep when there is no rise as the mind-intellect phenomenon, if we have not realised our existence ?
Sri Bhawan says that our very existence is Realisation Itself. We cannot imagine a point of time when we do not exist. Therefore, there is no period of time when Realisation is not.

In my view as in the views of many ardent devotees of Sri Bhagwan, all we need do is not doing anything but ‘Be’. I am already That which we are looking for. Nothing is to be added or gained in Realisation. We need only not put our head outside the widow seeking OURSELVES, as you beautifully said. Just B-E-I-N-G and knowing. There is no question of who and what.

Thank you so much.
          Anil     
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 14, 2012, 11:54:46 AM
Dear Sri Anil, Sri Ravi, Udai and Friends,

Dear Sri Anil, your quote from Sannidhi Murai,

Quote
What is this “I” that rises from within?[/size]Only a thought that like a bubble floatsUp to the troubled surface of Awareness.In sleep the sea is still, no bubble rises,Then too you are and are aware you are.You are not the “I” that rises and sets,You are the sole Awareness in the All,The eternal, uncreated light of Being.                     V. 1048, Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai


I am reminded about the following records of Swami Virajeshwara, from his autobiography "Scientist's Search for Truth"

He has very beautifully put into words the dynamics of the play of the 'I' friends, please go through this wonderful article of his by

 ---->CLICKING HERE (http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=4490.msg11516#msg11516)<----

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 14, 2012, 01:40:28 PM
Dear Anil and others,

Sri Bhagavan said once:

This is the meaning conveyed by the story of Ashtavakra and Janaka. The anecdotes differ in different books. We
are not concerned with the names and the embellishments. The tattva, i.e the underlying moral must not be lost
sight of. The disciple surrenders himself to the master. That means there is no vestige of individuality retained by
the disciple. If the surrender is complete all sense of individuality is lost and there is thus no cause for misery.
The eternal Being is only happiness. That is revealed.

Sri Bhagavan says to Muruganar (in Sri Ramana Sanndhi Murai):

(He said) iruntha padiye iru enRAn  - Be what you are.
(He said) guru aruL cheluthum vazhikke chel enRAn - Go the way in which the grace of Guru directs you to.

The first is Self Inquiry
The second is self surrender.

Sri Bhagavan told Tinnai Swami: Iru - Be.
This one word was enough for him. Tinnai Swami, who was a householder and a biochemist, left his job, his family
and everything and simply sat on the portal of a house in Tiruvannamalai for more than 20 years. No bath. Food if only
given by some body. No alternate dresses. Daily evacuation in some far of bushes. He attained Maha Samadhi on a
Maha Deepam Day. This is total surrender.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 15, 2012, 01:19:34 PM
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Ji. Yes. Total surrender means self-surrender in which there is no trace of individuality. Sri Tinna Swami ansd Sri Muruganar are quintessence of complete surrender. They go the way the Guru's Grace directs them. They no longer have personality and individuality to even ask for Grace. They are swallowed up by the Grace.

Thank you so much, sir.

Regards,
  Anil   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 15, 2012, 05:10:14 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Practice of the Presence of God-Brother Lawrence.This is same as what Sri Bhagavan taught:

My most usual method is this simple attention, and such a general passionate regard to God;
to whom I find myself often attached with greater sweetness and delight than that of an infant at
the mother’s breast: so that if I dare use the expression, I should choose to call this state the bosom
of God, for the inexpressible sweetness which I taste and experience there.
If sometimes my
thoughts wander from it by necessity or infirmity, I am presently recalled by inward motions, so
charming and delicious that I am ashamed to mention them
.
I desire your reverence to reflect rather upon my great wretchedness(Brother Lawrence is recounting all this to his 'superior'!), of which you are fully
informed, than upon the great favours which GOod does me, all unworthy and ungrateful as I am.
As for my set hours of prayer, they are only a continuation of the same exercise. Sometimes I
consider myself there, as a stone before a carver, whereof he is to make a statue: presenting myself
thus before GOD, I desire Him to make His perfect image in my soul, and render me entirely like
Himself.
(utterly beautiful!-Ravi)
At other times, when I apply myself to prayer, I feel all my spirit and all my soul lift itself up
without any care or effort of mine; and it continues as it were suspended and firmly fixed in God,
as in its centre and place of rest
.(Self abidance-Ravi)
I know that some charge this state with inactivity, delusion, and self-love: I confess that it is a
holy inactivity, and would be a happy self-love, if the soul in that state were capable of it
; because
in effect, while she is in this repose, she cannot be disturbed by such acts as she was formerly
accustomed to, and which were then her support, but would now rather hinder than assist her.
Yet I cannot bear that this should be called delusion; because the soul which thus enjoys GOD
desires herein nothing but Him. If this be delusion in me, it belongs to God to remedy it. Let Him
do what He pleases with me: I desire only Him, and to be wholly devoted to Him


Brother lawrence lived in a monastery and had to abide by the rules externally.Few might have understood him fully.Had it been India,he would have been revered as a JnAni-Ravi
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 15, 2012, 06:12:46 PM
Dear Ravi,

I agree with you. We should seek more and more of Guru's Grace. Grace is no doubt ever plentiful. But we should make our
vessels bigger.


Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 16, 2012, 07:54:21 AM
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

It is because of the Guru’s Grace that one is attracted to a particular spiritual path. It is the Guru’s Grace which sustains a sadhaka on that path. And it is the Guru’s Grace which makes for the success of the effort to become Self-Realised. Therefore, Guru’s Grace is truly the beginning, middle and the end.

It is true that the Guru’s Grace is always there, ever full. But Sri Bhagwan says that it is vouchsafed only to him who is a true bhakti or a yogi, who have striven hard and ceaselessly on the path towards freedom.

For, the Guru does not discriminate. There is no distinction for him. Grace is like the ocean, ever full. Everyone draws from it according to his capacity. Therefore, one who has brought only a tumbler should not complain that he is not able to partake of the Guru’s Grace as much as another who has brought a big jar.

Thank you so much, sir.

Regards,
  Anil 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 16, 2012, 07:58:01 AM
Dear Subramanian Sir, Ravi Sir, Sri Anil,

What is the best way to seek grace? what is the best way to make our cups bigger? it is by praying. It is only through regular constant sincere prayers, we would be able to experience the grace of the Guru.

Over all these cycles of various conversations, discussions, it all finally takes us back to where we started it all. The very system as laid out by our Sages, of Regular prayers daily, is the way.

Intense prayer, with the Bhava (feeling) is the way.

Friends, when times are tough, pray, intensely pray, when all our intellect and discernment are of no use, pray intensely. When you are troubled by worldly problems, when you are not able to abide in 'knowledge' pray intensely. Utter the name of the Lord with full faith and sincerity, for this is the best sure way.

Keep calling your Guru, your God, he would sure come to your rescue. We have seen so many stories of miracles, that have happened repeatedly in all the lives of devotees. Yes, Help is there, Help is there and the way to get that help is through prayers.

Salutations to Bhagavan
(http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/praying_hands.gif)

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 16, 2012, 09:06:20 AM
Nagaraj/Friends,

Quote
Intense prayer, with the Bhava (feeling) is the way
.

Yes Friend.This is the fundamental Truth that no seeker should forget.When this is there ,the presence will be there.It is this Presence which will then do the Sadhana for us.All we have to do is continnuous dwelling on that presence-a continuous prayer.This is 'smarana' and this is what Brother Lawrence calls as Practising the Presence of God.

P.S:Friends,please call me Ravi and do not click more keys on your keyboard.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 16, 2012, 09:17:53 AM
Dear i,

This is the fundamental Truth that no seeker should forget.When this is there ,the presence will be there.It is this Presence which will then do the Sadhana for us.

There is a very beautiful and poignant word in sanskrit, which you have just mentioned as above.

संनिधानं - Sannidhanam

Which literally means, "Presence" divine presence, Ulladu, "Pra" root word of Telugu.

There is a tradition to refer Gurus as SANNIDHANAM. And, we refer to those places as Sannidhi, Ramanar Sannidhi, Ramakrishnar Sannidhi, etc..

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 16, 2012, 01:56:54 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

Yes. Prayers and Japa are necessary. But it should be more of inward nature. It is better than loud prayers, and pujas with
pomp and paraphernalia. This is what Sri Bhagavan says in Verse 4 of Upadesa Undiyar.


Arunachala Siva,
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 16, 2012, 02:40:16 PM
Subramanian,

"But it should be more of inward nature. It is better than loud prayers, and pujas with
pomp and paraphernalia.what Sri Bhagavan says in Verse 4 of Upadesa Undiyar"

How the mind intervenes to qualify what is stated!How it busies itself with what is 'Right' and what is 'Wrong',what is 'Superior' and what is not,etc.
Friend,all that the 'unthee paRa' verse  means is this-whatever is initiated deepens as it goes along in that order.It does not mean one should rush and promote himself to the so called superior forms of worship.
One may be doing silent japa or self enquiry and not reach anywhere.Another may be without any learning,like some of the Labour class devotees that I encounter in small temples.When they cry aloud calling 'MurugA',I find myself bowing at their feet.These devotees are indeed blessed.Their call is much more genuine and heartfelt.
May be we are inhibited  from calling aloud in such a plaintive and deep way.How many of us even open our mouth to sing a kirtan.

Namaskar.


Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 16, 2012, 02:59:07 PM
Dear Ravi,

I shall give the English meaning of the two verses:

4. This is certain
    Worship, praise and meditation,
    Being work of body, speech and mind,
    Are steps for orderly ascent.

6. Better than hymns of praise
    Is repetition of the Name;
    Better low voiced than loud
    But best of all
    Is meditation in the mind.

This upadesa undiyar, has been primarily aimed to take us to what is stated in verse 10. Hence there is nothing
wrong in Sri Bhagavan grading it because unless there are grades of ascendance,  one cannot reach the state of
what is described in Verse 10.

Sri Bhagavan does not speak here separately about Nama Sankeetran with tala and cymbals. You may also remember when
Sri Dilip Kumar Roy asked Him whether singing songs in praise of Guru or God would confer liberation, He said Yes. It can.

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 16, 2012, 05:25:23 PM
Subramanian/Friends,
 :)
It just indicates the way it happens.All these forms have their place and one need not drop one in order to pursue the other.Whatever needs to be dropped will get dropped as the sadhana deepens.

What has to be done by the body has to be done by the Body,What needs to be chanted aloud has to be chanted aloud(Veda Mantras,for it helps others listening to it),what needs to be done silently has to be done silently.All have their place in sadhana.
It depends on the temperament of the sadhaka and his predilection.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 16, 2012, 05:59:54 PM
Dear Ravi,

I agree with you. But Sri Bhagavan speaks about uditha idathil odungi iruthal as a final goal. For this purpose, He has recommended
mental japa or mental repetition of mantras, which will eventually render silence. Sri Bhagavan says: You become the meditator,
You become the mantra, you become the japa.

Arunachala Siva.
   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 16, 2012, 06:24:36 PM
Dear Devotees,

I feel that all of you are telling the same thing. There is nothing wrong when Sri Bhagwan makes a gradation of the different forms of sadhana. At the same time it does not mean that one should jump one to pursue the other. It happens of its own accord. As sadhana deepens, Grace is palpable, and takes the sadhka where he should be taken to reach the ultimate goal, i.e. Self-Realisation. He alone knows what is good for us.

Thank you,
   Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 16, 2012, 06:33:40 PM
Dear i,

It is best one continues with ones Swadharma and the traditions of prayers that one has been doing. Whether it is loudly, with all pomp and festivities, it is all ok. no need to change anything, it is best to continue as it is, we need not change anything externally, only the inner Bhava needs to be inculcated, and, externally, one need not bring in any change to ones swadharma.

All that is required from our part is SINCERITY alone. The rest, will follow accordingly, the progression of the internalization etc would happen of its own accord.

One may continue to chant mantras prayers loudly, but his mind would be deeply immersed from within.

The outer paraphernalia is less important. One may continue with all the pomp and festivities, but if one is sincere, his mind would still dwell deep within.

One need not change anything.

Stick to Swadharma, inculcate Bhava, and utter sincerity. No need to worry about whether we are doing it loudly, or inner meditation.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 16, 2012, 06:41:45 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

Since self inquiry is a silent mental process, Sri Bhagavan insisted that even the previous steps should also be in silent mental
way. He does not decry Nama Sankirtan or loud Veda mantras. They are of a different group. Atma Vichara is not a loud process.
No one asks, Who am I? Who am I? Who am I? in a loud noise. If done, the neighbors would call him madcap.

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 16, 2012, 06:43:57 PM
Dear Sri Nagaraj,

Yes. Excellent. Thank you so much.

  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 16, 2012, 07:00:50 PM
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Ji. Yes. Self-enquiry or the Atma-Vichara is certainly not the japa of either 'Who am I?' or 'Whence am I?' It is diving deep within oneself, controlling sppech and breath, and seeking the the Source whence the aspiring ego springs, as Sri Bhagwan taught. Sri Bhagwan has taught that ceasing all talk of even 'I' and searching with inward diving mind whence the thought of 'I' sprouts is wisdom.

Thank you so much, sir.

Regards,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 16, 2012, 07:12:04 PM
Since self inquiry is a silent mental process. Since self inquiry is a silent mental process, Sri Bhagavan insisted that even the previous steps should also be in silent mental way. He does not decry Nama Sankirtan or loud Veda mantras. They are of a different group. Atma Vichara is not a loud process. No one asks, Who am I? Who am I? Who am I? in a loud noise. If done, the neighbors would call him madcap.

Dear i,

your thoughts allowed me to further contemplate, and, i discern, silence is not that silence without words, silence is not absence of sound or noise, silence is not an inert silence. Silence is that which is within, the unwavering mind within, completely at peace, while the external bustling may go on as it is. Bhagavan has himself said at several occasions that ones work need not affect ones self enquiry.

i also discern, there are no separate groups, all are one, who ever what ever one does, that very sadhana done in its pristine purity, with absolute sincerity, itself is self enquiry. Self enquiry is not different from any other sadhanas.

It is not a different light that a Self enquirer sees from a person who does Nama Sankirthanam, or one who does Ritualistic worship with mantras. They all see the same light

They all culminate in the same common silence, Mauna.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 16, 2012, 07:31:23 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Sri_ChandraShekara_Bharathi_Maha_Swamin.jpg)Dear i,

in the above connection, i remembered one incident from Sri Chandrashekhara Bharathi swamigal of Sringeri. As a child, before sanyasa sweekaranam, one day, his mother gave him some money to buy groceries, and he had a habit of chanting Mooka Panchashati, he knew it by-heart, completely, he used to chant this loudly and kept walking towards groceries shop, and, he walked past the groceries shop, walked past the village limits, and, by the time he completed the entire shlokas, he would realise, that he had walked several distance away from the village.

While his mouth was chanting Mooka Panchashati loudly, his mind was so complete absorbed in Self, he did not have body consciousness at all. And this happened several times at different instances.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 16, 2012, 08:48:02 PM
Dear Devotees,

Light is One. That Silence which transcends speech and silence is One. Goal is One. However, methods or forms of sadhanas to realise the Goal may be different for different seekers. We should not confuse methods with the Goal. Mount Everest is one, but paths to it are many. One may start from U.S.A. or Australia, from diametrically opposite directions, but in the end, reach the same destination, i.e. the Mount Everest. Sri Bhagwan says, ‘like a river when it joins the ocean’. Rivers are innumerable, but the ocean is one. There is one True ‘I’. i start with my ‘i’ to realise the True ’I’, he with his ‘i’, you with that of yours and so on. No two ‘i’s are at the same level of spiritual development. So, spiritual path of a seeker is unique. This is, in my view, the reason why it is said that there is no place for argument in the spiritual matter. For, everyone is right from his stand-point; only one need be sincere in one’s search for Truth.

Thank you,
  Anil     
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 17, 2012, 09:04:41 AM
“Forsaking me? Where have you hidden yourself?
Deep from within me comes the answer clear:
Here, in the Heart, your very Self I am I.”
                                                  From V. 396, Sri Ramana Anubhuti II

Dear Devotees,

There is no stress and strain in devotion. It is effortless and spontaneous. Lord does not command us to Love Him. So, we cannot escape love for Him. We cannot help it. Can we ? We are fortunate to be drawn to Sri Bhagwan in love. But nevertheless, we still yield unreservedly to the impulse for the worldly desires. It does not befit us. We should yield unreservedly only to the impulse that is for love of Him. At least we should bear unto Him that love which the rank ignorant bear to the means of transient pleasures in the world. Moreover, it should be free from bargaining. DEVOTION SHOULD NOT BE CONCEIVED AS A MEANS TO SOME END.

Thank you,
  Anil   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 17, 2012, 09:07:33 AM
Anil,
Wonderful posts from you.Thanks very much.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 17, 2012, 07:07:07 PM
Dear Devotees,

A visitor comes to Sri Bhagwan and proceeds to explains certain verses from the Bhagavad Gita.
Visitor: There is much difference between the different interpretations. This confuses me and I am unable to decide which of these is the correct one.
Sri Bhagwan : You may be having this problem because you are mixing up unrelated thoughts. You must focus your attention on the context in which the Lord gave the advice and try to understand the verses yourself. Moving from one interpretation to another would lead only to confusion.

Continuing, Sri Bhagwan says that total surrender is a central theme in the Gita. Arjuna could grasp the true import of Sri Krishna’s message only after he placed complete faith in Him.
Sri Bhagwan says that many sincere seekers came to Him. But sometimes, people loaded with book knowledge came to Him and started putting relevant and irrelevant questions. A few tried to  test His knowledge. Sri Bhawan says that books are needed only up to a stage.                                                           
                                                                              Source : More Talks With Sri Ramana Maharshi.


Thank you,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 17, 2012, 08:31:07 PM
Dear i,

yes, it is the case is most sadhakas, who, generally are more interested in what the commentators have got to say, over what the Lord himself really says  :) .

i avoid reading the extensive commentaries of any scriptures, at most, i read the basic translation of books, that also, i prefer word by word translation, and sometimes, i cross check the meanings of words if some doubt lingers about certain translations & interpretations of certain words used by the commentators which is basically used to suit their interpretations.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 17, 2012, 09:24:08 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from 'Tales and Parables of sri Ramakrishna':
THE PANDIT WHO COULD NOT SWIM
Once, several men were crossing the Ganges in a boat. One of them, a pandit, was making a greatdisplay of his erudition, saying that he had studied
various books—the Vedas, the Vedanta, and the  six systems of philosophy. He asked a fellowpassenger, "Do you know the Vedanta?" "No,
revered sir." "The Samkhya and the Patanjali yoga sutra?" "No, revered sir." "Have you read no philosophy whatsoever?" "No, revered sir." The pandit was
talking in this vain way and the passenger sitting in silence when a great storm arose and the boat was about to sink. The passenger said to the pandit,
"Sir, can you swim?" "No", replied the pandit. The passenger said, "I don't know Samkhya or the Patanjala, but I can swim."
What will a man gain by knowing many scriptures? The one thing needful is to know how to cross the river of the world. God alone is real, and all else is
illusory.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Ravi.N on April 17, 2012, 09:29:05 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

Stories of the Bhagavata scholars

MASTER: "Listen to a story. There was a king who used daily to hear the Bhagavata
recited by a pundit. Every day, after explaining the sacred book, the pundit would say to the
king, 'O King, have you understood what I have said?' And every day the king would reply,
'You had better understand it first yourself.' The pundit would return home and think: 'Why
does the king talk to me that way day after day? I explain the texts to him so clearly, and he
says to me, "You had better understand it first yourself." What does he mean?' The pundit
used to practise spiritual discipline. A few days later he came to realize that God alone is
real and everything else-house, family, wealth, friends, name, and fame-illusory. Convinced
of the unreality of the world, he renounced it. As he left home he asked a man to take this
message to the king: 'O King, I now understand.'

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 17, 2012, 09:36:44 PM
Dear i,

this is a classic story, i grew up with! Evergreen! I take this opportunity to express my heartfelt gratitude to Amar Chitra Katha comics :) which has truly been by Guru, throughout my childhood. Significant part of my well being is surely attributed to these comics.

here is an article from Wikipedia:

(http://www.equitycalling.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/amar-chitra-katha-logo.jpg)The idea behind starting a comicbook series devoted to Indian culture and history came to Pai from a quiz contest aired on Doordarshan in February 1967, in which participants could easily answer questions pertaining to Greek mythology, but were unable to reply to the question "In the Ramayana, who was Rama's mother?"

He left his job and started Amar Chitra Katha the same year, with the help of late G. L. Mirchandani of India Book House, when most other publishers from Allied Publishers to Jaico had rejected the concept. Later, he took on the role of writer, editor and publisher. The series went on to become a publishing milestone for the Indian comic book scene, selling over 86 million copies of about 440 titles.

The above is an oft-told story of how ACK was founded beginning with ‘Uncle Pai’, in Mumbai in 1967. However, Outlook Magazine has this article about the genesis of this popular comic series: The idea and proposal for Amar Chitra Katha was made by a Bangalore book salesman called G.K. Ananthram which led to the first Amar Chitra Katha comics being produced in 1965—in Kannada, not English. “The English ACK titles begin from number eleven because the first ten were in Kannada,” clarifies Ananthram. To Anathram’s satisfaction, the 1965 Kannada ACK venture was a great commercial success which lead to Mirchandani in the head office in Mumbai pursuing the Amar Chitra Katha idea in English diligently, and the rest is history. “They brought in Anant Pai” says Ananthram. “And he built a wonderful team and a great brand.”

In 1969, Anant Pai founded Rang Rekha Features, India's first comic and cartoon syndicate, and started the children's magazine Tinkle in 1980. His involvement with the above, and the rapport he shared with his readers earned him the title "Uncle Pai".
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Ananta_Pai.jpg)

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 18, 2012, 08:48:47 AM
In the sovereign Presence where prevails
The stillness of awareness,
And the light supreme of Siva shines
Revealing one’s own inner being,
All comers find their efforts prosper
And ripen into wisdom’s fruit.

Gold and men frequent the Presence
Of him whose Being is Awareness.
Their foolish pride destroyed, their hearts
Made pure by but one glance of grace,
Their faces glow with silent joy
As they depart.
         Sri Muruganar, from the poem ‘Silent Master’s Sovereign Presence’

Dear Devotees,

D: The mind must realise in the Heart.
Sri Bhagwan : Be it so. What is the mind?
D. Mind, Heart are all avatars of Perumal (Vaishnavite term for incarnate God)
Sri Bhagwan : If so no need to worry ourselves.
D: On this basis how can we realise?
Sri Bhagwan : Surrender the mind to Perumal (God). His avatar cannot remain independent of Him. Render unto Him what is His and be happy.
D: How to do so?
Sri Bhagwan: How is the mind known to us? Owing to its activities, namely, thoughts. Whenever thoughts arise remember they are all modes of Perumal and they cannot be otherwise, this is enough; THIS IS THE SURRENDER OF THE MIND. Can anything exist independent of Perumal? All is Perumal alone. He acts through all. Why worry ourselves.
                                                                                                    Talk—600

Thank you,
  Anil         
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on April 18, 2012, 11:35:56 AM
Quote
Though the truth is beyond logic, it does not violate logic

Yes - agree much. Logic itself is created to explain the truth. Gravity was first seen by Newton and then he built a logic to explain what he saw. Because of this logic has to be in line with TRUTH.

On another note, there are so many texts and scriptures which try to do that. All realized souls (Sri Bhagawan, Jesus or Budha or whoever) experienced the SAME according to me. But when the limited entity called brain TRIED TO explain it, it all came out differently. It is not their fault - the tools we use to understand what they said are limited. It is like I and you visiting a theme park and writing an essay independently about it. People who read my essay may get a different experience than people who read yours and it will certainly be different from the experience of actually being there and experiencing it. So scriptures are good to start - you cannot know about the existence of the theme park without reading about it somewhere or someone telling you about it. But then you shoudl visit yourself to experience it and in that experience process - books and essays will be meaningless to you.

Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on April 18, 2012, 01:24:41 PM
Udai sir

Quote
but if i am talking about you!! Where do you have to journey ?

By journey, I dont just mean journey in space. We are all making some journey to "remove" some obstacles and experience what Bhagawan saw - right? So it is not about "where" from the perspective of space and time. I am sure you did not mean that, Udai Ji. But just clarifying. These language and words are funny :). We can use any other word - but I dont think we can claim we have been to the state that Bhagawan was at. That means we are all making a journey  (not in space-time continuum or to a distant place). Perhaps, I am using the word "journey" instead of  "effort" or "sadhana" or something. In any case, something which reveals "I" removing the covers.


Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 18, 2012, 07:16:58 PM
Dear Sri Udai,

Yes. I understand that some knowledge is necessary to start with. They are necessary but only so far as to make one spiritually minded. After all, dear Sri Udai, what is the purpose of the scripture? Sri Bhagwan says that purpose of all descriptions in religions is only to establish the Reality of the Self (Talk—145). However, Sri Bhagwan says that this purpose having been gained, there is no use engaging in studies (Talk—418). Once I inculcate the understanding that the Self is beyond speech and intellect, why should I then project the mind to extensive study. Self-ward pointed books like Sri Bhagwan’s books, in my view, are more than adequate. When one comes to a Sadguru like Bhagwan Sri Ramana, he gets everything that is needed from the Guru Himself.

Yes, as Sri sanjay_ganesh said, practical application is of prime importance.

“…personal touch and personal instructions are the most helpful aids. As for the other, a person may laboriously convince himself of the truth to be intuited, i.e. its functions and nature, but the actual intuition is akin to feeling and requires practice and personal contact. Mere book learning is not of any great use.” (Talk—28)

Besides, dear Sri Udai, excessive intellectual learning may always give rise to pride of learning and desire for appreciation. Sri Bhagwan says that learning leading to search for Truth and humility is good.

There is no limit to polemics. One can argue ad nauseam. But such discussion and arguments, more often than not, remain inconclusive in the end.
As for intellectual understanding of the Mahavakya ‘TAT TVAM ASI’, Sri Bhagwan Himself says:
“They say the mahavakya ‘Tattvamasi’ is common; another containing five words ‘Tat tvam asi ati nijam’ is the most secret one taught by Dakshinamurti in Silence; corresponding to the five words they formulate five states.” (Talk—332)
Dear Sri Udai, I do not think that the true import of the mahavakyas can ever be understood intellectually.
Sri Bhagwan says that those familiar with logic or large works like Vichara Sagara, or Sutra Bhasya etc., cannot relish small works like Truth revealed dealing with the Self and that pointedly too. Sri Bhagwan says, very significantly indeed, that only those whose minds are less muddy , or pure, can relish small and purposeful works.

Moreover:
I AM ATMAN; ATMAN IS THE GURU; AND ATMAN IS GRACE ALSO. NO ONE REMAINS WITHOUT THE ATMAN. HE IS ALWAYS IN CONTACT. NO EXTERNAL TOUCH IS NECESSARY.
                                             Sri Bhagwan (Talk—104)

Thank you,
  Anil                       
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 19, 2012, 06:13:12 AM
Dear Sri Udai,

Yes. Sri Bhagwan says that nothing new is to be gained in Self-Realisation. The Self is here and now. We are the Self. It is not to be got anew. We are already That. Ignorance supervenes and draws a veil over the Pure Bliss. All sadhana is directed only to remove this ignorance. Sri Bhagwan says that this ignorance consists in the false identification of the Self with the body, mind etc. When this false identity goes there remains only the Self. Therefore, ultimately Self-Realisation may be said to be change in outlook or perspective, as you said. “TO BE” is to realise.

Dear Sri Udai, you must understand that Sri Bhagwan has repeatedly emphasised that the text ‘Tat Tvam Asi’ or ‘I AM THAT I AM’ or ‘Aham Brahmasmi’ etc is not meant for thinking ‘I am That’ or ‘I am Brahman’. Aham ‘I’ is known to everyone. Brahman abides as Aham in everyone. ‘I’ is therefore already Brahman. We need not think so. Sri Bhagwan teaches to find the ‘I’ by Enquiry. SRI BHAGWAN TEACHES TO BE THAT ‘I’. IT IS THE DIRECT METHOD.

Dear Sri Udai, I know for certain that you are an intelligent and as good a devotee of the Lord as well as Sri Bhagwan as any other member on the forum. I even love your critical bent of the mind, for it is a great asset which enhances the spirit of enquiry. Having said this, however, I wish to say that I wonder that how can you say that the true import of THAT which is beyond the mind and the intellect, Being Itself, can be understood intellectually by the study of the sacred scripture etc.

Thank you,
   Anil   

   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on April 19, 2012, 01:09:30 PM
Quote
Its beyond mind and yet to be grasped only with mind.

As per Lord Krishna from Chapter 6, it seems it is graspable by brain and not mind - as in line 2 below. Even in Pancha kosa theory, Jnanamaya being more subtle than manomaya, it makes sense.

Quote
sukham atyantikam yat tad
buddhi-grahyam atindriyam
vetti yatra na caivayam
sthitas calati tattvatah
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 19, 2012, 03:37:38 PM
Dear srkudai,

Sri Bhagavan clarifies the points as follows in Talks NO. 238:

Devotee: What is buddhi? - intellect.

Maharshi: The thinking or discriminating faculty is buddhi.  These are mere names. Be it ego, the mind or buddhi, it is all
the same. Whose mind? Whose buddhi? The ego's. Is the ego real. No. We confound the ego and call it buddhi or mind.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 20, 2012, 09:51:02 AM
Quote:
“Its beyond mind and yet to be grasped only with mind.
This is elaborately explained in scriptures itself. Mundaka clearly states its beyond mind and it also states that its obtainable only with a mind and through shabda pramana.”

Dear Sri Udai,

Yes. Sri Bhagwan says in the Spiritual Instruction that Brahman cannot be apprehended by the impure mind or the mind as we know it, but can be apprehended by the pure mind.
“When the indefinable power of Brahman separates itself from Brahman and, in union with the reflection of consciousness assumes various forms, it is called the impure mind. When it becomes free from the reflection of consciousness through discrimination, it is called the pure mind. Its state of union with the Brahman is its apprehension of Brahman. The energy which is accompanied by the reflection of consciousness is called the impure mind and its state of separation from Brahman is its non-apprehension of Brahman.”

We must never forget that Brahman can never be an object to be known.

Sri Bhawan teaches that even the pure mind or the satvic mind is admitted as a concession to argument. ‘Otherwise’, they argue, ‘how does the jivanmukta live and act?’ Sri Bhagwan teaches that the satvic or the pure mind is in fact the Absolute Consciousness. The object to be witnessed and the witness merge together and Absolute Consciousness alone reins supreme.

Besides, we should never forget Sri Bhagwan’s basic teaching with regard to the mind, if the Goal is Self-Awareness.

“It is the nature of the mind to wander. You are not the mind. The mind springs up and sinks down. It is impermanent, transitory, whereas you are eternal. There is nothing but the Self. To inhere in the Self is the thing. NEVER MIND THE MIND. If the source is thought, it will vanish leaving the Self unaffected.” 
                                                                                                             Talk—97

I do not think that there is any ambiguity whatever in the above Teaching regarding mind for those who are inspired and drawn in love and devotion to the Guru whose Name is Bhagwan Sri Ramana.
Thank you,
   Anil

   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on April 20, 2012, 10:06:27 AM
Quote
“When the indefinable power of Brahman separates itself from Brahman and, in union with the reflection of consciousness assumes various forms, it is called the impure mind

When there is nothing there other than "sarvajna, sarvashakta and sarvavyaptha" Brahman, how can something "separate" from it. There is no place to stand after becoming separate :) - as there is no place where there is no Brahman. So the "separation" itself is a myth called Maya, which is again not separate from Brahman. Just like you can not separate wetness and water (wetness being a power of water itself), you cannot separate Maya and Brahman. But as Bhagawan taught us, you can look through it and experience your true self which is Brahman. So impure mind is also Brahman - muddy water is also water :) - as there cannot be a second thing "separate" from it.

Quote
You are not the mind. The mind springs up and sinks down. It is impermanent, transitory, whereas you are eternal. There is nothing but the Self. To inhere in the Self is the thing. NEVER MIND THE MIND. If the source is thought, it will vanish leaving the Self unaffected.”

Absolutely amazing - yes. No better words to explain this :). Thanks
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 21, 2012, 09:10:22 AM
Glance of Grace

Let us meditate on Ramana
The Teacher of Reality
Who dwells within my inmost Self
As I, as I,
Bringing in full measure
The joy of silence
Ending the delusive pride
Of a divided self’s self love.

In one unbroken silence let us dwell
On the twin Feet of the Guru
Glorified above all kings
Because his glance of grace revealed
The Hill of bright Awareness
Shining in a world
Troubled by darkness of desire.

Dear devotees, avid for grace,
Our master is an ocean,
Take and hold your fill.
Approach him freely,
Minds and hands wide open,
Drink to your hearts’ content.

Defeated and frustrated, do not reel
Beneath Fate’s blows.
Turn your eyes, your thoughts
Towards those sovereign Feet
Which can transmute a devotee
Into Siva radiant.
                                              Sri Muruganar   

Thank you,
   Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 21, 2012, 09:48:31 PM
Dear i,

i was contemplating, Sri Muruganar, would have been is this very 'state' 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, all through his life, since his acquaintance with his beloved Guru Ramanar. When ever i think about Sri Muruganar, it takes me to the depths of some unfathomable intensity.

What a Grace. Truly.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 22, 2012, 07:55:53 AM
Dear Sri Nagaraj,

Ah! The great Devotee, Poet and the Sage Sri Muruganar ! When one contemplates on Him, one enters into intensely felt Guru-sishya relationship. His invocation of the Presence of Sri Bhagwan—the images and rhymes He employs in His poetry—as Lord Siva, as Father, Mother, Lover, as Guru, King, Commander, as Beggar, and My Goodness ! even as the Betrayer !—transcends speech and thought. He lived a life of complete self-surrender. One can sense the intensity of His devotion and faith to the Guru by the fact that He always directed devotees who approached Him for guidance to Sri Bhagwan, even after the Mahanirvana. He always maintained that Sri Bhagwan is the only Illumination and the Master for all. Yes, His Devotion to the Guru was supreme—the ‘Annanya Bhakti’, and His understanding of Sri Bhagwan’s Teaching was unparalleled.


Dear devotees, avid for grace,
Our master is an ocean,
Take and hold your fill.
Approach him freely,
Minds and hands wide open,
Drink to your hearts’ content.



Thank You,
   Anil 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 22, 2012, 09:54:31 AM
Dear Devotees,

Once you have arrived, there is no escape, as there is no escape from the tiger’s jaw. Such is the Guru’s Grace.
It is recorded that how Sri Valandur Kalyanasundaram Iyer, an ardent devotee of Sri Bhawan, made history. He used to come to the Ashram regularly and was aware of the greatness of Sri Bhagwan. He was in such awe of Him that he would be afraid to go near Him and even used to prostrate to Him from a little distance. He was working as a station master at Valandur railway station near Madurai. It is said that he remained absorbed in the constant thought of Sri Bhagwan even while he was on the duty. One day when he was on duty, between 7 P.M. and 8 P.M. he was overcome by an irresistible urge to visit Sri Bhagwan. A train was on the platform, ready to start. Availing of this opportunity he got into the train deserting the station unmindful of the consequences. His whole mind was on Sri Bhawan. Only a last grade pointsman was left alone in the station and nobody was there to take charge. This sensational news reached the headquarters and he was questioned by the officials and even the police at the Madurai station. He did not reply properly and kept repeating Sri Bhagwan’s Name and insisted that he should go to the Ashram to see Him at once. The D.M.O. also examined him and found that nothing was wrong mentally with him. It was a high voltage devotional upsurge. However, he refused to go back on his duty. The officials sympathised with his state and put him safely on the train leaving for Tiruvannamalai. By this time the news reached the Ashram and everyone was wonderstruck. Sri Bhagwan said nothing. Sri Rajan, himself a railway employee, was perhaps posted at that time in Tiruvannamalai railway station. So, seeing this news item in the News Paper, he met Sri Iyer at the station and fed him and then he was escorted safely to the Ashram. When he arrived at Sri Ramanasramam, he calmly prostrated to Sri Bhagwan from a little distance but said nothing though he is said to have remained praying inwardly. Sri Bhagwan also said nothing but just smiled. After the usual stay at the Ashram, he departed.

Dear devotees, for the dereliction of duty he was awarded the punishment of break of service. However, out of sympathy, he was reemployed. But he remained in the service only for a short time and ultimately resigned. He was in an advanced spiritual state. After premature retirement he ran a small business for maintaining his family at Tiruvannamalai itself.

Thank you,
    Anil         
 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 22, 2012, 10:05:17 AM
Dear devotees, the source of my last post is 'More Talks With Sri Ramana Maharshi' by Sri N. N. Rajan.

Thank you,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 22, 2012, 06:40:19 PM
Dear i,

the relationship of Bhagavan and Muruganar was unique, simply because of the sheer intensity of devotion Muruganar had for Bhagavan, and, Bhagavan, just to enjoy, would tease Muruganar. There are many such subtle instances.

When Muruganar prostrates completely, Bhagavan would just initiated some conversation just that very moment, when Muruganar is flat on ground prostrating to him, and Muruganar would even forget to get up even and respond back to Bhagavan like a Lizard, and Bhagavan would converse intently and Muruganar also would not even realise anything, when Bhagavan spoke to him, he lost all his body consciousness and surroundings. Other devotees used to make fun calling him as a Lizard devotee. :)

At another instance, everybody is well aware of the fight between Muruganar and his wife smt Meenakshiammal. They were a very sweet couple. Smt Meenakshiammal used to complain to Bhagavan about how Muruganar used to ignore her and how he was not taking care of her like before, she used to vent her feelings to Bhagavan and Bhagavan used to listen to her with utter consideration and also used to ask attendants to bring strong coffee for smt Meenakshiammal as he was a great coffee lover :) at another instance, she generally used to sing Muruganar's songs in the evenings before Bhagavan. and in one of the songs, Muruganar, being vexed with Bhagavan whose grace he some times could not fathom, sang as Ramana Mayavane, meaning O Ramana, the Deceiver and Bhagavan decided to play a prank, he asked smt Meenakshiammal to change the words Ramana Mayavane as Muruga Mayavane, indirectly, subtly conveying to Muruganar how he has been Deceiving his wife as well :) and Muruganar was very sensitive, the moment he heard this lines, he realised it must have been the play of Bhagavan and quickly tried to move away from the scene :) Then Sri Bhagavan explained to the devotees. "I have never abandoned Muruganar as he accuses me in the song. He is always with me. But he has abandoned Meenakshi and run away from her.(http://davidgodman.org/books/images/withmuruganar1.jpg)

(http://www.meetyourmouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/pet-mouse-down.jpg)Swami Niranjanananda, sometimes asked Muruganar to perform the puja rituals to the Mother shrine. Muruganar use do the needful and finally, when it was time for the arati, he could not rotate the Arati in one and and rotate in clockwise direction, holding the bell in the other hand, it was a very funny to look at the plight of Muruganar and Bhagavan happened to watch it one day, and began to laugh loudly, very delightful, Muruganar, again, being sensitive, used to get angry with Bhagavan and disappeared from the scene. He used to put into verses like this, what ever happened with him, thus indirectly, Bhagavan had been constantly inspiring Muruganar in many ways.

Another occassion, Muruganar, very meticulously, got a big jack fruit to perform the annual pithru rites for his mother, seeing his meticulous preparations, Bhagavan asked him circastically, "oh, the thought of your mother still exists, is it?" and this very moment, Muruganar being his sensitivity was again a great instance to watch him, he took this as a call, and this was the last ritual he performed for his mother, Bhagavan was his priest at this instance.

Wonderful, wonderful. Sometimes, i feel, Muruganar is like the mice beneath Lord Ganapathy (Ramanar)

Kanakammal recollected, after the physical demise of Bhagavan, among all devotees, it was Muruganar who suffered the pain the maximum, itseems, he used to roll on the ground and cry with so much pain.

This picture, Muruganar is seated below Bhagavan, how much intensity, how much intensity.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on April 22, 2012, 09:16:55 PM
I-sir - Thanks. Your story posts are very interesting to read.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 23, 2012, 09:10:43 AM
Dear Sri Nagaraj,

Ji. Yes. Thank you so much, sir. So, it was the Leela, a Divine Leela that was enacted by the Divine between two of them, the Guru and the Shishya.
“In the same way that wax melts on encountering fire, on seeing his feet, my mind dissolved and lost its form. Like a calf finding its mother, my heart melted and rejoiced in his feet. The hairson my body stood on end. Devotion surged in me like an ocean that has seen the full moon. Through the grace of chitshakti [the power inherent in consciousness], my soul was in ecstasy.”
                                                                         Sri Muruganar

Sri Muruganar’s works and compositions are one of the most authentic and reliable statements of Sri Bhagwan’s Teaching having the mysterious and unfathomable philosophical depth and metaphysical subtleties. He is the quint essence of self-surrender and His attempt to minimise the importance of His works and compositions is therefore only the typical example of His self-deprecating nature:
“Can the words uttered by the mad, the ignorant and the devout be subject to a critical analysis ?”
                                                                                    Sri Muruganar

The beggar came for alms at midnight.
My innocent girl, while offering something,
Had her slender wrist caught by this
Great Lord Venkata.
Is he a robber or is he a God ?

Then you and I were alone.
Both one, for ever one,
But then, like some carefree vagabond
Incapable of constant love,
You left me in the street for folk
To laugh and jeer at !
If now I took the liberty
To speak of it, you would answer straight
That it was but a dream we dreamed !
How can this woman comprehend
Your state mysterious, Ramana,
Master of maya, God above!

Look my friends, just look at him
Enjoying bliss
With that other woman, Mukti,
Abandoning me, poor me,
To grievous suffering,
Me here dying, sore lamenting!
Venkata, the King who used to fill
With nectar every pore of every bone,
The wizard who stole this slave’s heart,
Go and fetch him, honey-bees.

The above poems are the sublime depiction of the Sublime-Divine Love which is non-dual in its feeling and experience, the same Love that bound Radha with Lord Sri Krshna, in a perennial Divine Embrace.

Thank you,
   Anil   

   

 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 24, 2012, 08:58:48 AM
Dear Devotees,

Sri Bhagwan says that surrender is to give oneself up to the original cause of one’s being. This, in effect, means that one should surrender by seeking the source of the ego which is equating the sadhana of the Atma-Vichara with that of the surrender. This is the central theme or the essence in Sri Bhagwan’s Teaching on surrender.

   ‘Surrender what and to whom?’ Sri Bhawan says that it is essential to understand what real surrender means. It can be effective only when it is done with full knowledge. And that knowledge comes after enquiry, reflection and contemplation, etc.

Therefore, it follows that there may be differences initially in the mode of practice, BUT THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE JNANA AND ABSOLUTE SURRENDER TO THE LORD, THAT IS , IN THOUGHT, WORD AND ACTION.

Sri Bhagwan says that he who remains separate from God has not surrendered. Surrendering this and that or the petty possession is not therefore the true surrender. This is at best what is termed as the partial surrender, for the seed of all possession, i.e. the ego, is intact. Sri Bhagwan says that if instead we give up the pseudo self, ‘I’ and ‘mine’ are given up at a stroke. Thus the evil is nipped in the bud itself. This is the true surrender which is known as self-surrender or complete surrender. However, it is true that Sri Bhagwan says that complete surrender is impossible in the beginning. It is only natural. How can one at once give up his ‘I’ and ‘mine’ at a stroke, given the habit to regard oneself as an individual from the time immemorial ? Yet, Sri Bhagwan says that partial surrender is possible for all which in course of time will lead to complete surrender.

Therefore, dear devotees, in my view, the devotees of Sri Bhagwan or those who have come to Sri Bhagwan’s Feet as the last resort, should invariably practice both:
ONE SHOULD SEEK THE SOURCE OF THE INDIVIDUAL SELF WHICH IS WITHIN AND NOT OUTSIDE AND GIVE ONESELF UP TO IT OR SURRENDER TO IT. 
It can be summed up in Sri Bhagwan’s Words as follows:

As one proceeds in Atma-Vichra, one automatically goes on surrendering. I should say that as one proceeds in one, the other happens spontaneously.

Thank you,
   Anil 
           
       


Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 24, 2012, 07:07:55 PM
Dear anil,

R. Sridharan writes in his article in Deepam, 2003:

.........

"Whatever aspect of life, whether the mundane or the altruistic or the intensely spiritual, and whichever way one looks at it,
one finds that free will and destiny affect it and make one unhappy for the simple reason that freewill is the cause of destiny.

"What other way remains for us than  surrender to the Lord or finding out the root cause of all this through Self enquiry? As one
proceeds sincerely on the path of self inquiry as taught by Sri Bhagavan coupled with true devotion and surrender, one finds oneself
reluctant to employ free will in day to day life and as a result one can also subtly feel destiny slipping away from us. If this is not
the Sadguru's Grace, what is?"

Arunachala Siva.               
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 25, 2012, 09:59:01 AM
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,
                             Pranam,

From your post I have learnt that you had been to Sri Ramanasramam. I wish and request you to kindly post brief account of your visit to the Ashram.

Dear sir, we all are aware that our Truth is beyond will and fate. Whose will, whose fate is it ? ‘It is mine’. But Sri Bhagwan teaches that I am beyond will and fate and that I can transcend them if only I abide as That. Sri Bhagwan says that this is the meaning of CONQUERING DESTINY BY WILL.

Dear sir, free will, at present, is appearing to our limited faculty of sight and will. In retrospect, can we not see that that all our past activities and actions fall into a course of law, and our free will is just merely one of the links in that course of law?
Sri Bhagwan says that natural laws are manifestations of God’s Will and so they have been laid down.
GOD’S WILL ALONE PREVAILS THROUGH THE APPEARANCE OF OUR OWN FREE WILL. AND THEREFORE, IT NATURALLY FOLLOWS THEREFORE THAT EGO IS JUST APPEARANCE.
(You have beautifully mentioned the same thing as the ‘destiny slipping away’.)
Dear sir, as for Grace, I reiterate that God’s or Guru’s Grace is ever there. Are we following sadhana as taught by Him without His Grace ?       

Thank you so much, sir.

Regards,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 25, 2012, 11:09:35 AM
Dear Anil,

We had been to Sri Ramanasramam for 4 days from 21st April. It was a visit of challenges and rewards. The temperature at T'malai
was  40 degrees celsius. Added to this there was power cut for 7 hours per day!  This made us to stay in the Asramam almost the
whole day and this was a reward. We could see the abhishekam, alankaram, and arti in detail for both Mother and
Sri Ramaneswara Mahalingam.  We could sit for book reading in the evening and also the had darshan of evening pujas.
Our visit to the Big Temple was also good in the sense that we proceeded to the Temple early in the morning and had darshan
of Cute Little Father and Cute Little Mother without crowd. It was Krittika day and Kambattu Ilaiyanar's shrine was crowded.
However we waited patiently and had darshan. We bought two books, one by Osborne a reprint of For Those With Little Dust,
containing articles and his editorials  in Mountain Path in sixties. We also bought a book which gives lucid comparison between
Siva Puranam of Manikkavachagar and Sri Ramana Puranam of Muruganar.

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on April 25, 2012, 11:18:42 AM
Subramanian sir,

Great to read. I have never been to Thiruvannamalai and have only read a lot about it in past decade or more. I am in the middle of some prarabdha karma (not work, family related) - which is so intense and painstaking that I hardly even find time to step out of my routine attending this prarabdha karma trying to always think of the supreme while I do that. I am not sad about it - at least I try not to. And I just hope and pray, Mahamaya shows her grace to me sometime - when She feels it is right time - to remove the maya blanket and at that time I can visit Sri Bhagawan's abode. I only can pray to mahamaya at least to give me a "break" without hurting anyone around to go visit Sri Bhagawan's abode.

-Sanjay
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 25, 2012, 11:30:34 AM
Dear sanjaya ganesh,

Do not worry. If you have intense faith in Sri Bhagavan, He is sure to call you one day. Leave it to Him. Our job is only to
pray to Him and seek His grace.

Saint Tirunavukkarasar sings:

nin kadan adiyenaiyum thAnguthal
en kadan paNi seithu kidappathe....

Your duty is to take care of this servant,
My duty is to do your work (that is the work, allotted to me by you.)


Arunachala Siva.
   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: ramana_maharshi on April 25, 2012, 11:54:29 AM
thanks Subramanian garu for eloborating of your tiru visit.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 25, 2012, 03:03:05 PM
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Thank you so much, sir, for posting such a vivid account of your visit to Sri Ramanasramam. I also believe that a 7 hour power cut, every day, during your stay at Sri Ramanasramam, was an act of Grace, a blessing in disguise. For, this power cut enabled the devotees to spend the maximum time at the Ashram Itself, in Satsanga.

Thank you once again, sir.

Regards,
  Anil   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 25, 2012, 06:15:38 PM
Dear Anil,

David Godman says that he lives in a nearby village and the power cuts are more.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 26, 2012, 09:31:16 AM
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

I did not mean to say that all power cuts, in and around Tiruvannamalai, are blessing for the common suffering people. I said it in an esoteric sense. For instance, common people suffered due to rampant power cuts but the same power cut enabled you to spend maximum time in meditation in the Samadhi Hall or the Old Hall, or moving around while remaining all the time absorbed in meditation. 

Thank you so much, sir.

Regards,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 26, 2012, 01:52:31 PM
Dear Anil,

I agree with you. One should seek the door of blessing among the darkness of suffering.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 26, 2012, 03:39:45 PM
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Ji.Yes. Thank you so much, sir.
Dear sir, Sri Bhagwan, on many occasions, has said that Enquiry and Surrender are two effective means for Self-realisation. Of the two, Surrender is generally regarded easier. Why? Is Surrender really easier? In my view, Surrender is regarded easier amongst the devotees because implication of Surrender is not fully understood. Sri Bhagwan says that when the ‘doership’ idea is intact, that is no surrender at all. From this single statement, it is obvious that it is not as easy as is generally understood to walk the Path of Surrender. We must understand, “Who is to surrender what and to whom.  Nothing belongs to us, everything belongs to the Lord.” Real Surrender, in my view, starts with the recognition of this truth. I would like to be aware of your and other members’ invaluable opinions and suggestions regarding the above.   

Regards,         
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on April 26, 2012, 03:50:05 PM
Anil Ji -

Excerpt from Gospel of Ramakrishna Bhagawan

-------------------
Two things are necessary for the realization of God; faith and self-surrender.
Man is ignorant by nature. Errors are natural to him. Can a one-seer pot hold four
seers of milk? Whatever path you may follow, you must pray to God with a restless
heart. He is the Ruler of the soul within. He will surely listen to your prayer if it is
sincere. Whether you follow the ideal of the Personal God or that of the
Impersonal Truth, you will realize God alone, provided you are restless for Him. A
cake with icing tastes sweet whether you eat it straight or sidewise.
------------------

Peace,
Sanjay
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 26, 2012, 05:23:12 PM
Dear Anil,

Yes. Sri Bhagavan said both self inquiry and surrender are one and the same. In self inquiry, the ego is first jettisoned and
realization happens. In surrender, you proceed with ego, do prayers, japas, pujas etc.,  and finally when you totally surrender,
the ego is submitted to God or Guru.  This is what Sri Bhagavan meant by saying Nin ishtam ; en ishtam. Your Wish is my wish.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 26, 2012, 06:13:19 PM
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir and Sri sanjay_ganesh,

Ji. Yes. Surrender implies Faith and complete Surrender implies complete, unqualified and unconditional Faith in His protection and guidance. One proceeds with the ego to begin with, does puja, japa, worship, etc. and Faith deepens i.e. spirit of surrender gradually grows and intensifies. And when Faith grows to be unqualified and unconditional such that His wish becomes the devotee’s wish, ego is finally surrendered to God or the Guru. This is complete Surrender or what is known as self-Surrender.

Sri Bhagwan says that ego submits only when it recognises the Higher Power. This is the beginning of Surrender. Although the ego does not exist apart from the Self but because of lack of awareness of this truth, it remains rebellious and thinks that it acts and it takes initiative by its own free-will.

Thank you so much, sir.

Regards,
  Anil     

 

Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 27, 2012, 10:01:51 AM
Devotee : I am a novice in spiritual matters. A friend of mine advised that surrender to God is the best way. I have surrendered to God but he has not enlightened me on the spiritual path. Please extend your grace.
Sri Bhagwan : Oh! You have surrendered, is it ? How then do you say that God has not done anything? IT ONLY MEANS THAT YOU HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD THE TRUE IMPORT OF SURRENDER. You should place yourself completely at God’s disposal and expect no return.
Devotee : Now I realise that my understanding of surrender was defective. Please guide me correctly.
Sri Bhagwan : You say that grace is required. Your coming here expecting guidance is itself God’s grace. The same grace will continue if your surrender is total and unreserved. You need not ask anything. Try to get rid of ‘I’ and ‘Mine’. Don’t feel anything is yours. It is all God’s.
                                             Source: Leaves from the Diary. 

Dear Devotees,

HAVING MADE THE IDOL OF LORD GANESHA OUT OF JAGGERY, THE WAYFARER PINCHES OUT A SMALL BIT OF JAGGERY FROM THE IDOL ITSELF AND OFFERS TO THE DEITY AS OFFERING. Sri Bhawan says that it does not occur to him that in the very act of pinching out a bit of jaggery, he is defiling the Idol whom he wants to worship, little realising that he has made both the worship and the offering worthless.
Dear devotees, Sri Bhagwan says that our very idea of self-surrender is nothing better than the offering made by the wayfarer.
Existence is One. By presuming our existence as something apart from the Supreme Being, we have defiled it.
Therefore, whether we surrender ourselves or not we are never apart from that Supreme Being.

So, the ideas, such as, ‘I am the body’ and therefore ‘I am the doer’ are the chief obstacles. These ideas come in the way of Surrender. Therefore, my submission is this that one should, if he can, also practice Vichara, along with Surrender. For, if one practices Atma-Vichara as taught by Sri Bhagwan, the ‘body’ as well as ‘doership’ ideas get gradually eroded and even blasted.

Thank you,
   Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 27, 2012, 11:57:12 AM
Dear i,

We had been to Sri Ramanasramam for 4 days from 21st April. It was a visit of challenges and rewards. The temperature at T'malai
was  40 degrees celsius. Added to this there was power cut for 7 hours per day!  This made us to stay in the Asramam almost the
whole day and this was a reward. We could see the abhishekam, alankaram, and arti in detail for both Mother and
Sri Ramaneswara Mahalingam.  We could sit for book reading in the evening and also the had darshan of evening pujas.
Our visit to the Big Temple was also good in the sense that we proceeded to the Temple early in the morning and had darshan
of Cute Little Father and Cute Little Mother without crowd. It was Krittika day and Kambattu Ilaiyanar's shrine was crowded.
However we waited patiently and had darshan. We bought two books, one by Osborne a reprint of For Those With Little Dust,
containing articles and his editorials  in Mountain Path in sixties. We also bought a book which gives lucid comparison between
Siva Puranam of Manikkavachagar and Sri Ramana Puranam of Muruganar.

Thank you for your detailed description of your visit to Arunachala. I read your posts here as well as from David Godman's blog. For the many of us who are unable to visit Aruanchala often, you fill the vacuum :) with your detailed description.

Gratitude

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 28, 2012, 08:13:25 AM
Dear i,

Bhagavan says,

It is said: 'The self must be offered to him as a gift', what is the meaning of this? Is the self separate from the Supreme One, so
as to be given to Him?

(Guru Ramana Vachana Mala, 109)

Surrendering is pure Jnana. Jnana Mathe, is Bhakti. Bhakti is full of Jnana.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 28, 2012, 01:25:07 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

Yes. In the initial days of bhakti, the devotee considers himself as separate from God and so there is an individual self -
siRRuyir - says Muruganar. When bhakti blossoms into total surrender, then this individual self or ego is submitted to Self
and there is only unity.

Sri Bhagavan explained this to Lakshmana Sarma (WHO) in Talks No., 639.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 28, 2012, 03:47:53 PM
Quote:
“Dear i,

Bhagavan says,

It is said: 'The self must be offered to him as a gift', what is the meaning of this? Is the self separate from the Supreme One, so
as to be given to Him?

(Guru Ramana Vachana Mala, 109)

Surrendering is pure Jnana. Jnana Mathe, is Bhakti. Bhakti is full of Jnana.”

Dear Sri Nagaraj,

Surrender is generally associated with dualistic devotional sadhanas. But Sri Bhagwan revealed that true surrender transcended worshipping God in a subject-object relationship. Sri Bhagwan’s Teaching of the path of surrender is radical as is the path of Self-enquiry or Atma-Vichara. It is true that he never discouraged His devotees from following such practices,but He taught that since God alone is, any worshipping of God in a dualistic relationship is illusory.
“To see God is to be God. There is no all apart from God for Him to pervade. He alone is.”
                                                                                            Sri Bhagwan

Dear Sri Nagaraj, yes, Sri Bhagwan says that self-surrender is the same as the mind control. The ego submits itself only when it recognises the higher authority of the Self. This is the beginning of the surrender. Although the ego cannot exist without the Self. Yet, it is ignorant of this truth and therefore remains rebellious and thinks that it acts on its own initiative and by its own free will. So, true surrender is the melting of the ego in the Heart, the Source of all that is. Sri Bhagwan says that GOD SEES IN THE WORSHIPPER AS TO HOW MUCH OF THE EGO REMAINS IN CONTROL AND HOW MUCH IS ON THE VERGE OF DESTRUCTION. He cannot be deceived by outward act of surrendering like saying, ”I surrender.”

However, having stated as the above, I wish to add that Sri Bhagwan said to Sri B. V. Narsimha Swami that as long as one feels that one is different from Him, prayer to Him is legitimate. As long as one feels that one is the doer and there are burdens on him, prayers in respect of them are legitimate. But it is better to attain the state of self-surrender, entrusting one’s entire burden to the Lord, who then takes the burden off one’s back and give the feeling that one is in Him and are One with Him.       
Yes. Bhakti is Jnana Matha.

Thank you so much.
         Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 28, 2012, 04:52:08 PM
However, having stated as the above, I wish to add that Sri Bhagwan said to Sri B. V. Narsimha Swami that as long as one feels that one is different from Him, prayer to Him is legitimate. As long as one feels that one is the doer and there are burdens on him, prayers in respect of them are legitimate. But it is better to attain the state of self-surrender, entrusting one’s entire burden to the Lord, who then takes the burden off one’s back and give the feeling that one is in Him and are One with Him.       
Yes. Bhakti is Jnana Matha.

Dear i,

This is so very essential. This is a true recognition of oneself where oneself stands. The hallmark of Jnana or Bhakti or Sharanagati is as what Bhagavan has expressed: நானுதியா துள்ளநிலை  நாமதுவா யுள்ளநிலை "Naan Udiyaadulla Nilai Naam Aduvaai Ulla Nilai" "‘That’ we are, when ‘I’ has not arisen"; But we are not yet upto this, i have observed, just knowing this is not enough, one has to be completely pure and free from the 6 doshas, Kama Krodha, Moha, Lobha, Matha, Matsarya - Desire, anger  hatred, greed, miserliness, narrow minded, delusory emotional attachment, pride, stubborn mindedness, envy, jealousy, show or vanity, and pride

This expression of Bhagavan is verily a Maha Vakya. For me, somehow, this elaborates or can we say, even culminates the other 4 mahavakyas of Vedas, such as Aham Brahmasi, Ayamaatma Brahma, Tatvamasi, Prajnaanam Brahma. What Bhagavan has blessed us with, is the revelation of this "Ego", discerning this ego is very critical to true recognition. Unless one knows the ego, it is as good as being lost in a forest, not knowing the way. But like a guide, Bhagavan comes and shows us the way.

You have observed very keenly that, as long as one feels that one is different from Him, prayer to him is legitimate. I have strongly felt, each one of us have to take some अनुष्ठानं Anushtana which means an Undertaking , performance , action , spiritual or good disciplined conduct. Even today, elaborately and meticulously, at Ramanashramam, they carry out various fesivals, according to the shastras and the rules laid out there in. When it comes to Navarathri times, the Veneration of Goddess is very beautiful.

As Sri Adi Shankara rightfully says,  चित्तस्य शुद्धये कर्म Chittasya Shuddhaye Karmanaha Action is for the cleansing of the mind, is very very essential.

Why the Sages have laid अनुष्ठानं Anushtana is because, we will be bound by the rules, by default, we will not give way to the demands of the mind, we will not compromise with our अनुष्ठानं Anushtana. When we practice regularly, by default the mind is slowly brought under control.

Anushatana is verily like the analogy given by Yama to Nachiketha in Katha Upanishad as follows:

Yama's teaching also notably includes the parable of the chariot,

atman, the "Self" is the chariot's passenger
the body is the chariot itself
consciousness (buddhi) is the chariot driver
the mind (manas) is the reins
the five senses (indriya) are the chariot horses
the objects perceived by the senses are the chariot's path

Having Anushtana is properly channelizing oneself as above.

When we look at the lives of devotees, Muruganar, completely renounced everything, including his wife, he was completely doing Self Enquiry, where as Ganapati Muni, lead a normal householder life, he continued with his Anushtanas, Japas, etc... Like this each one of us, have to take up proper Anushtana based on ones own interests and inclinations, whereby, we would be really slowly freeing ourselves from the 6 Doshas, which is when our Jnana can bloom.

Most of us, cannot renounce like Muruganar :) at least, yet! Therefore, it is essential one takes up a regular अनुष्ठानं Anushtana.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 28, 2012, 05:17:58 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

What is true self surrender?  Nothing is mine. All have been made over to you.  Even my ego is made over to you. When
Sri Bhagavan came to Big Temple on the morning of 1st Sept. 1896, He went straight to Arunacahleswara and embraced Him
and told Him: As per your command I have come. (The rest of my job is all yours).  Arunachaleswara knew it. Sri Bhagavan  went
out and it rained unusually and this was abhishekam done by Arunachaleswara to His son.  Some barber  came and sought to know
whether He could be tonsured. Oh, this is also my Father's intention. He agreed. Then He tore His dhoti and took a quarter or even
less portion to make a coupina. The rest of the cloth was thrown away. He did not preserve it for an alternate coupina. He threw
away the sweetmeats given by the sister of Muthukrishna Bhagavatar. He threw away the remaining money after spending for the
rail way fare. Now He become totally free. No possessions. No possessor too. The possessor has been eaten away already by
the God within. Now a person who is not a possessor - how can He have possessions?  This is total surrender.

There is a funny story in Sri Bhagavan's times. In the Hill, Sadhus used to take Ganja once in a while. Sri Bhagavan was also
once given when Mother Azhagamma was there.  Once Siva appeared before a Sadhu and said: "Okay, I have come to take
you to my abode, Kailasa! Come" The sadhu said: "Wait, let me bring my Ganja pouch also with me!"

odum kavanthiyume uRavenRittu uL kasinthu
thedum  pouLum sivan kazhale enath theLinthu
koodum yuirum kumandaiyidak kunithadiyen
Adum kulathillai AndAnai koNdanRe.

Only the begging bowl and coupina are my relations. My only search for a thing is Siva's anklet wearing feet.
Let this body and soul fight, (I don't care) I shall dance with heckle in the presence of Lord of Thillai.

             Kulapathu, Tiruvachakam Verse 1.
   
Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 28, 2012, 05:41:15 PM
Dear i,

what a wonderful verse from திருவாசகம்

ஓடும் கவந்தியுமே உறவென்றிட்டு உள் கசிந்து
தேடும் பொருளும் சிவன் கழலே எனத் தெளிந்து
கூடும் உயிரும் குமண்டையிடக் குனித்தடியேன்
ஆடும் குலாத்தில்லை ஆண்டானைக் கொண்டன்றே.


it reminds me of Kaupina Panchakam of Sri Adi Shankara :)

वेदान्तवाक्येषु सदा रमन्तो
भिक्षान्नमात्रेण च तुष्टिमन्तः ॥
विशोकवन्तः करणे रमन्तः
कौपीनवन्तः खलु भाग्यवन्तः ॥

मूलं तरोः केवलमाश्रयन्तः
पाणिद्वयं भोक्तु मन्त्रयन्तः
कथमिव श्रियमपि कुत्सयन्तः
कौपीनवन्तः खलु भाग्यवन्तः ॥

देहादि भावं परिमार्जयन्तः
आत्मानमात्मन्यवलोकयन्तः
नान्तं न मध्यं न बहिस्‍मरन्तः
कौपीनवन्तः खलु भाग्यवन्तः ॥

स्वानन्दभावे परितुष्टिमन्तः
संशान्त सर्वेन्द्रिय तुष्टिमन्तः
अहर्निशं ब्रह्मणि ये रमन्तः
कौपीनवन्तः खलु भाग्यवन्तः ॥

पंचाक्षरं पावनमुच्चरन्तः
पतिं पशूनां हृदि भावयन्तः
भिक्षाशना दिक्षु परिभ्रमन्तः
कौपीनवन्तः खलु भाग्यवन्तः ॥
.                  . The dispassionate one wearing a piece of loin cloth —
who is roaming in the thoughts of Vedanta (Upanishad),
who is satisfied by a meagre portion of begged-food,
who is meditating in his inner-self without grief — is indeed blessed.||1||

The dispassionate one wearing a piece of loin cloth —
who is sitting at the roots of a tree,
who is eating   unmeasured (meagre) food with his two hands,
and who is disregarding wealth like a patched-cloth —
is indeed blessed.||2||

The dispassionate one wearing a piece of loin cloth —
who is elating and satisfying in his own thoughts,
who is keeping quiet and curbing his sensual desires,
and who is roaming day and night in the thoughts of Brahman —
is indeed blessed.||3||

The dispassionate one wearing a piece of loin cloth —
who is witnessing his body changes,
who is seeing self as the aatman,
and who is not remembering either the end, or the middle,
or the outside one — is indeed blessed.||4||

The dispassionate one wearing a piece of loin cloth —
who is reciting the Brahma-syllable, who is is existing
with the thought ‘I am Brahman’, and who is wandering
in directions for alms — is indeed blessed.||5||

:) wonderful !

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 28, 2012, 06:05:59 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

Sri Sankara has gone one step further. He says even alms-bowl is not necessary. Only two palms would do. It is called
Karadhala bhiksha. Sri Bhagavan also in the initial days used only His two palms to receive bhiksha. He used to eat them
then  and there and then wiped out His palms on the body and drank water from Ayyankulam Tank.  tiruvodu = alms bowl
etc., came only after Pazhani Swami and others brought one for Him. Yogi Ramsurat Kumar used to take bhiksha in a coconut
shell (half the shell)

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 28, 2012, 06:57:34 PM
Dear i,

व्यापरे खिद्यते यस्तु निमेषोन्मेषयोरपि ।
तस्यालस्य धुरीणस्य सुखं नन्यस्य कस्यचित् ॥ १३ - ४ ॥


vyāpāre khidyate yastu nimeṣonmeṣayorapi
tasyālasya dhurīṇasya sukhaṁ nanyasya kasyacit

Happiness belongs to no-one but that supremely lazy man for
whom even opening and closing his eyes is a bother.

I have also read in the Bhagavata, somewhere, where the Lord says, that he has provided for everybody in abundance, he has provided for water, air, shelter in the form of trees, fruits and vegetables, what more do you need on Man? Be free.

let me see if i can trace this out, what i have written above is only out of memory, but, the Lord conveys this essence very beautifully. We have over the years, since our birth, have only accumulated more and more and more and more....

When we truly realise that God does provide for, without an iota of doubt, it will be taken care of. The life of Ramanagiri Swamigal is truly a testimony to this.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 28, 2012, 07:05:05 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

Sri Bhagavan used to joke on Himself that He is a pani-ledu-vadu - one without work.

sombiyai summa sukam uNdu uRangidil sol veru en gathi arunachala!

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 29, 2012, 10:00:14 AM
As snow in water melts, let me dissolve as love in you who are all love, O Arunachala !
                                                                                                        V. 101, Aksharmanamalai

Dear Sri Subramanian Sir and Sri Nagaraj,

God is Love. Love is God. The Self is Love. And, therefore, the V.101, Aksharmanamalai, in my view, is the essence of Jnana and Bhakti or Devotion.

Dear Sri Subramanian Sir, Sri Nagaraj and Others,
                             This is to state a small request that whenever you post Tamil texts,on the Forum, kindly give simple English translation of the same so that even those who do not know Tamil may also benefit.

Thank you so much.
     Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 29, 2012, 01:40:26 PM
Dear Anil,

More than what Sri Bhagavan taught (self inquiry etc.,) His life is itself the greatest and most powerful teaching. In fact, one
writer says "His life was a better teaching than the answers He was prompted to give to questions on philosophy and various
practices, inspiring though they are."

His love for Arunachala was revealed in His love for all and everything, including plant and animal life. We see Him leading a
life supremely  carefree and happy. There was  a majesty in His self containment and dispassion, needing nothing and sharing
everything.  He never gave Himself any airs or graces. He participated fully in the Asramam cores and was conspicuous for His
refusal to allow the Asramam authorities to give Him any special treatment.

Nor was Sri Bhagavan always serious. On the contrary He delighted His devotees with wit and keen sense of humor. He enjoyed
a joke and was himself a great story teller.

His love for Arunachala is extraordinary.  We see that every moment was indeed an expression of His remarkable joy in and lover
for Arunachala - a true glorifying of His God.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 29, 2012, 01:43:41 PM
Dear i,

Brahmasri always keeps quoting Paul Brunton's quote "His silence is more eloquent than His speech"

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on April 29, 2012, 01:46:29 PM
Quote
His love for Arunachala is extraordinary.  We see that every moment was indeed an expression of His remarkable joy in and lover
for Arunachala - a true glorifying of His God.

Subramanian sir -

A related question came to my mind reading this. Does this mean even for JIvanmuktha - a God with a form - and devotion to a personal God exists? Ramakrishna Bhagawan had Mother Kalli and so on... Eager to know...

Peace
Sanjay
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 29, 2012, 01:57:49 PM
Dear sanjaya,

Even for a Jivan mukta, so long as He has discarded His body, He can also love Brahman in saguna, in form, say Arunachala.
What is wrong there? Sri Sankara has written a number of poems on various gods and goddesses even though he had
given a master piece of pure advaita philosophy in Viveka Chudamani. Please see Sri Bhagavan's answers to Dr. Syed in
Talks No. 273.

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 29, 2012, 02:03:24 PM
Dear i,

In this regard, we can never say, a Jivanmuktha to be like this or that, the point to discern is that he is beyond, he may still do ritual worship, he may still sit without doing anything, He is simply beyond our comprehension. Nothing can determine the Jivanmuktha Lakshanam. He cannot be fit into our definition.

At another instance, when some devotee asked Bhagavan, what he would ask God, if he were to appear before him, to which, Bhagavan responded, that he would first ask him to stop this business of appearing, coming and going before him.

Even, look at how Sri Ramakrishnar was, different at different times. How can we measure the unlimited expanse? They do what ever they want. They may also behave like an insane, mad persons, at the same they can also be ruling a country, like Janaka.

Its futile attempt, we can never know

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on April 29, 2012, 02:12:08 PM
Having observed as previously,

a Jnani can only be a great Bhakta, a Jnani can only be a great Jnani, a Jnani can only be great ritualist, a Jnani only can be a true Bhagavattotaman.

He fits into everything. There is no place where he cannot be fit into! To the Christians, he is Jesus, to the Muslims, He is Allah, and so on... He is All. POORNATVAM - Absolute Completeness.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on April 29, 2012, 02:18:19 PM
Thanks. Yes  - that makes sense.

Peace
Sanjay
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 29, 2012, 03:25:21 PM
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Ji. Yes. His Life Itself is a greater Teaching than the Spoken Words and His Silence remains the Greatest Teaching. His Silence is eloquent and palpable even today. There is no room for any doubt about that.

Thank you so much, sir.

Regards,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 30, 2012, 02:47:28 PM
Quote:
वेदान्तवाक्येषु सदा रमन्तो
भिक्षान्नमात्रेण च तुष्टिमन्तः ॥
विशोकवन्तः करणे रमन्तः
कौपीनवन्तः खलु भाग्यवन्तः ॥

मूलं तरोः केवलमाश्रयन्तः
पाणिद्वयं भोक्तु मन्त्रयन्तः
कथमिव श्रियमपि कुत्सयन्तः
कौपीनवन्तः खलु भाग्यवन्तः ॥

देहादि भावं परिमार्जयन्तः
आत्मानमात्मन्यवलोकयन्तः
नान्तं न मध्यं न बहिस्‍मरन्तः
कौपीनवन्तः खलु भाग्यवन्तः ॥

स्वानन्दभावे परितुष्टिमन्तः
संशान्त सर्वेन्द्रिय तुष्टिमन्तः
अहर्निशं ब्रह्मणि ये रमन्तः
कौपीनवन्तः खलु भाग्यवन्तः ॥

पंचाक्षरं पावनमुच्चरन्तः
पतिं पशूनां हृदि भावयन्तः
भिक्षाशना दिक्षु परिभ्रमन्तः
कौपीनवन्तः खलु भाग्यवन्तः ॥   . .    The dispassionate one wearing a piece of loin cloth —
who is roaming in the thoughts of Vedanta (Upanishad),
who is satisfied by a meagre portion of begged-food,
who is meditating in his inner-self without grief — is indeed blessed.||1||

The dispassionate one wearing a piece of loin cloth —
who is sitting at the roots of a tree,
who is eating unmeasured (meagre) food with his two hands,
and who is disregarding wealth like a patched-cloth —
is indeed blessed.||2||

The dispassionate one wearing a piece of loin cloth —
who is elating and satisfying in his own thoughts,
who is keeping quiet and curbing his sensual desires,
and who is roaming day and night in the thoughts of Brahman —
is indeed blessed.||3||

The dispassionate one wearing a piece of loin cloth —
who is witnessing his body changes,
who is seeing self as the aatman,
and who is not remembering either the end, or the middle,
or the outside one — is indeed blessed.||4||

The dispassionate one wearing a piece of loin cloth —
who is reciting the Brahma-syllable, who is is existing
with the thought ‘I am Brahman’, and who is wandering
in directions for alms — is indeed blessed.||5||

Dear Sri Nagaraj,

Kaupina Panchakam of Sri Adi Shankara is indeed wonderful. Thank you so much for posting it.

Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 30, 2012, 02:50:12 PM
Ramana, God immaculate,
Bright like Aruna Hill that blesses
Ardent devotees with its grace,
A well you are of infinite bliss,
Permit me graciously
To come near, bend down and drink.
                                      Part of V. 222, Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai
     
Incessant search for Self, the love supreme of God we call.
For He alone as Self abides within the Heart of all.
                          V.4, Nine Stray Verses

Dear Devotees,

He alone abides as the Self in our Heart. So, incessant search for the Self alone is the Supreme Love for Him. Incessant search for the Self within is alone coming near Him and bending down. And abidance as the Self alone is to drink the Nectar of Love and Bliss.

Thank you,
   Anil 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on April 30, 2012, 03:05:55 PM
Dear anil,

Verse 103 of Akshara Mana Malai:

Intending to trap me, you like a spider spread your wings of Grace, you imprisoned me and devoured me, (my ego), O Arunachala!

Verse 105 of ibid.

May you live for ever, as the loving savior of the poor, helpless people like me, O Arunachala!

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 30, 2012, 03:28:04 PM
“Intending to trap me, you like a spider spread your wings of Grace, you imprisoned me and devoured me, (my ego), O Arunachala!”

Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

It is true of Sri Bhagwan Himself. He Himself chooses His prey, spreads His wings of Grace to trap the chosen one, imprisons Him in a tiger-like jaw and then devours him at His own chosen time.

Thank you so much, sir.
Regards,
  Anil

Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on April 30, 2012, 04:06:36 PM
Quote from Sri Nagaraj:
“Dear i,

In this regard, we can never say, a Jivanmuktha to be like this or that, the point to discern is that he is beyond, he may still do ritual worship, he may still sit without doing anything, He is simply beyond our comprehension. Nothing can determine the Jivanmuktha Lakshanam. He cannot be fit into our definition.

At another instance, when some devotee asked Bhagavan, what he would ask God, if he were to appear before him, to which, Bhagavan responded, that he would first ask him to stop this business of appearing, coming and going before him.

Even, look at how Sri Ramakrishnar was, different at different times. How can we measure the unlimited expanse? They do what ever they want. They may also behave like an insane, mad persons, at the same they can also be ruling a country, like Janaka.

Its futile attempt, we can never know

Salutations to Bhagavan”


Dear Sri Nagaraj,

Ji.Yes. In the present state of ignorance, it is futile to try to ascertain and fathom the State of a Jnani. Only a Jnani can truly know the State of an another Jnani.

Thank you so much.
 Anil

Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 01, 2012, 03:20:30 PM
Unfathoable

The feet, the middle and the crown,
All three you are, O Venkata!
O child, those who not an atom
Of your true Being, how coud they understand
Its nature and condition?
           
                                   V. 1158, Sri Ramana sannidhi Murai

Siva you are and Vishnu too,
And also Brahma, Venkata!
O child, those who know nothing at all
Of your true Being, how could they understand
Their nature and qualities?
                     
                                     V. 1160, Sri Ramana sannidhi Murai


Dear Devotees, when it comes to knowing the State of a Jnanai, are we better than a child who knows nothing, not even an atom, of His Being ? How can we fathom the Unfathomable, infinite EXISTENCE-CONSCIOUSNESS with the limited and non-existing faculty CALLED MIND ? No. Only a Jnani can fathom the State of another Jnani, for all Jnanis are One.

However, in Silence He teaches us the Secret of our being THAT.

“One sole Awareness, Lord Supreme,
Silent sky, the Vedas’ import,
That you are, O Venkata!
Yet, to your eager devotees
You utter without speech the blissful secret of their being That.

                                     V. 1165, Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai

What is meant here by the eager devotees in the Verse cited above ?


Thank you,
    Anil   
 
 


Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 01, 2012, 03:34:15 PM
Dear Anil,

Muruganar says in Guru Ramana Prasadam, one of the compositions in Sri Ramana Jnana Bodham:

366. Supreme Light, You who turned the eye of Grace upon my worthless self, ripening me and inspiring these verses
of praise! Shattering and casting off the threefold defilement that bound by soul you came to hold me entirely within
your power. 'Master, other than you, I know of no other support!

367. Through true devotion whereby I became the married wife of the One and merged with Him, I dwell in the one Heart,
holding onto that One, the non dual reality, dwells within my inner awareness and shines there  unceasingly.

370. The state of pure grace, enduring supreme bliss, was not within my own power. The Lord, feeling it to be His
responsibility, accomplished it and granted it to me.  Other than trusting in the glory of our dear Lord's Grace,
I did not perform any spiritual practice as my own doing.

(Tr. Robert Butler)

Arunachala Siva.         
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 01, 2012, 04:07:31 PM
Quote
“370. The state of pure grace, enduring supreme bliss, was not within my own power. The Lord, feeling it to be His
responsibility, accomplished it and granted it to me.  Other than trusting in the glory of our dear Lord's Grace,
I did not perform any spiritual practice as my own doing.”


Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Other than trusting in the glory of his dear Lord’s Grace, what is there to do? It Itself is perennial Satsanga. If composing 30,000 ‘Verses Sublime’, pertaining to His Life, Teaching and Glory, is not Satsanga, what is? He was an extraordinary devotee and the Divine Poet of the Divine Court of Bhagwan Sri Ramana.. So, He sings:

“The Lord, feeling it to be His responsibility,
Accomplished it and granted it to me.”

Thank you so much, sir.

Regards,
  Anil

Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 02, 2012, 04:01:57 PM
Dear Devotees,

When we talk of loving God, duality is implied—the one who loves and the entity called God who is loved. But an individual is never separate from God. Therefore, love means love towards one’s own Self. This is why Sri Bhagwan often said that everything is dear because of the love of theSelf.

Love itself is the form of God. Sri Bhagwan teaches that if by saying, ‘I do not love this, I do not love that’, I reject ALL THINGS,  that which remains is the Atma-Swarupa only. That alone is the true form of the Self.  Everything thus can be rejected, but not the Self. Therefore, what remains after rejecting everything is the Self alone. And that is the true love.

Sri Bhagwan says that one who knows the secret of that love finds the world itself full of universal love. That is true love. That is devotion, that is Realisation, and that is everything.

Sri Bhagwan says that not forgetting consciousness alone is the state of devotion because real knowledge of the Self which shines as the undivided Supreme Bliss then surges as the nature of love.  Then only we understand that Grace is needed, love is added and Bliss well up.

Thank you,
   Anil

 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 02, 2012, 04:22:18 PM
Dear anil,

Yes. Tirumoolar said: ANBE SIVAM. Love is Siva-Consciousness.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 03, 2012, 08:02:23 AM
Swarupa exists wholly as division-free supreme bliss, and the experience of swarupa Jnana surges as the nature of love. Therefore, only the janan experience free from pramada (forgetfulness of the Self) is in truth the observance of devotion, the relationship of true love that never fades.
                                   V. 974, GVK, Edited by Sri D. Godman


Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

 Ji. Yes. Thank you so much, sir. It, therefore, follows that SELF ALONE IS THE TRUTH OF LOVE; and Atma-Swarupa or Atmanubhava which is the direct experience of the Self , is the experience of True Love.

“One who finds the secret of that love finds the world itself full of universal love.”
                                                     Sri Bhagwan


Regards,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 04, 2012, 07:02:47 PM
Dear Devotees,

There is no doubt whatever that the Divine Grace is essential for God-Realisation. But Sri Bhagwan says that such Grace is vouchsafed only to him who is a true devotee or a yogin, who has striven hard and ceaselessly on the path towards freedom. However, on another occasion, He says that we are making effort, in the first place, because of the Guru’s or God’s Grace.

THEREFORE, IT CAN BE SAID THAT GRACE IS THE CAUSE OF THE EFFORT AND EFFORT IS THE CAUSE OF THE GRACE. I should say that Grace is obtained through effort and effort is prompted by the Grace.

Thank you,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on May 04, 2012, 07:23:43 PM
Dear i,

such a beautiful discernment!

சிவன் அவன் என்சிந்தையுள் நின்ற அதனால்
அவன் அருளாலே அவன் தாள் வணங்கிச்
சிந்தை மகிழச் சிவ புராணம் தன்னை
முந்தை வினைமுழுதும் ஓய உரைப்பன் யான். 20
          chivan avan enchin^dhaiyuL n^inRa adhanAl
avan aruLAlE avan thAL vaNaN^gich
chin^dhai magizach chiva purANam thannai
mun^dhai vinaimuzudhum Oya uraippan yAn.

Because He, Civan, within my thought abides,
By His grace alone, bowing before His feet,
With joyous thought, Civan's 'Ways of Old' I'll tell,
That thus my former 'deeds' may wholly pass. (20)

எல்லாப் பிறப்பும் பிறந்து இளைத்தேன், எம்பெருமான்
மெய்யே உன் பொன் அடிகள் கண்டு இன்று வீடு உற்றேன்
உய்ய என் உள்ளத்துள் ஓங்காரமாய் நின்ற
மெய்யா விமலா விடைப்பாகா வேதங்கள்
ஐயா எனவோங்கி ஆழ்ந்து அகன்ற நுண்ணியனே 35

வெய்யாய், தணியாய், இயமானனாம் விமலா
பொய் ஆயின எல்லாம் போய் அகல வந்தருளி
மெய் ஞானம் ஆகி மிளிர் கின்ற மெய்ச் சுடரே
எஞ்ஞானம் இல்லாதேன் இன்பப் பெருமானே
அஞ்ஞானம் தன்னை அகல்விக்கும் நல் அறிவே 40


          ellAp piRappum piRan^dhu iLaiththEn, emberumAn
meyyE un pon aDigaL kaNDu inRu vIDu uRREn
uyya en uLLaththuL ON^gAramAy n^inRa
meyyA  vimalA  viDaippAgA  vEdhaN^gaL
aiyA  enavON^gi Azn^dhu aganRa n^uNNiyanE              35



veyyAy, thaNiyAy, iyamAnanAm vimalA
poy Ayina ellAm pOy agala van^dharuLi
mey nyAnam Agi miLir kinRa meych chuDarE
enynyAnam illAdhEn inbap perumAnE
anynyAnam thannai agalvikkum n^al aRivE
HE FOUND THE MASTER

Truly, seeing Thy golden feet this day, I've gained release.
O Truth! as the OngAram dwelling in my soul,
That I may 'scape. O spotless one ! O Master of the bull !
Lord of the VEdas! Rising, sinking, spreading, subtile One ! (35)

Thou art the heat ! and Thou the cold ! the Master Thou, O spotless One !
Thou cam'st in grace, that all things false might flee,
True Wisdom, gleaming bright in splendour true,
To me, void of all wisdom, blissful Lord !
O Wisdom fair, causing unwisdom' self to flee far off !


(Translated by GU Pope)

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 04, 2012, 08:25:39 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

Saint Manikkavachagar says:

Meeye un poNNadigaL kaNdinRu veeduRRen...

The mere seeing of Siva's golden feet, in Tiruperundurai has conferred him liberation! Veedu = moksham in Tamizh.

pAdam = feet, has become padam = mukti or source.

Manikkavachagar has never been tired of praising Siva's golden feet. Like Muruganar says in his Padamalai about
Sri Bhagavan's feet.

Guru or God's feet are everything. It is Peace. It is Home. It is Source. It is Mukti. It is Bliss. It is Sat and Chit and
Anandam.

You should read  Tiruvembavai last verse. A poet cannot describe the god or guru's feet better.

Salutations, Grace me with your flowery feet, which is the beginningless beginning.
Salutations, Grace me with your tender leaves like feet, which is the end of the endless.
Salutations, to that golden feet which is the starting point of all beings*   (See Pancharatnam of Sri Bhagavan, Verse 2)
Salutations, to that flowery feet, which is the sustencance of all beings.
Salutations, to that two feet which are the end point of all beings.
Salutations, to that lotus feet un seen by Vishnu and Brahma   
Salutations, to that golden feet which take charge of us and rule over us, and grace us.
Salutations,to You, come and bathe with us in this early morning of Margazhi!

Verily  the verse is a flower garden!   

Muruganar also says in his Padamalai that Sri Bhagavan's feet are Grace, Mukti, Peace, Sat and Chit Anandam.

No wonder, VaLLalAr Ramalingam said that anyone who cannot melt at reading Tiruvachakam, will not melt for anything
in this world.

AnAl vinaiyen azhuthAl unnai peRalAme..........

I have  done nothing. But if I cry for you, this sinful fool can yet you!

Arunachala Siva.
 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on May 04, 2012, 08:59:18 PM
Dear i,

wonderful, thank you for elaborating these beautiful ecstatic expressions of Manikkavachagar. i do not get these subtle essence of what you have mentioned in GU Pope's translation - "The mere seeing of Siva's golden feet, in Tiruperundurai has conferred him liberation! Veedu = moksham in Tamizh."

There is a beauty when one reads the meaning of this verse as above and as how GU Pope has rendered his translation. How truly blessed one must be to pass the life time, or, pass this never ending moment by praising the almighty. Manickavachagar lived some thousand years back, very recently, can we believe, Muruganar was there? sometimes, its so pleasantly surprising!

Here i reproduce the Thiruvembavai verse in tamizh:

போற்றி அருளுக நின் ஆதியாம் பாதமலர்
போற்றி அருளுக நின் அந்தமாம் செந்தளிர்கள்
போற்றி எல்லா உயிர்க்கும் தோற்றமாம் பொற்பாதம்
போற்றி எல்லா உயிர்க்கும் போகமாம் பூங்கழல்கள்
போற்றி எல்லா உயிர்க்கும் ஈறாம் இணையடிகள்
போற்றி மால் நான்முகனும் காணாத புண்டரிகம்
போற்றியாம் உய்யஆட் கொண்டருளும் பொன்மலர்கள்
போற்றியாம் மார்கழிநீர் ஆடேலோர் எம்பாவாய். 174
         pORRi aruLuga n^in AdhiyAm pAdhamalar
    pORRi aruLuga n^in an^dhamAm chen^dhaLirgaL
pORRi ellA uyirkkum thORRamAm poRpAdham
    pORRi ellA uyirkkum pOgamAm pUN^gazalgaL
pORRi ellA uyirkkum IRAm iNaiyaDigaL
    pORRi mAl n^Anmuganum kANAdha puNDarigam
pORRiyAm uyyAaT koNDaruLum ponmalargaL
    pORRiyAm mArgazin^Ir ADElOr embAvAy. 

here is the other one -

யானே பொய் என்நெஞ்சும் பொய் என் அன்பும் பொய்
ஆனால் வினையேன் அழுதால் உன்னைப் பெறலாமே
தேனே அமுதே கரும்பின் தெளிவே தித்திக்கும்
மானே அருளாய் அடியேன் உனை வந்து உறுமாறே. 94
         yAnE poy enn^enychum poy en anbum poy
 AnAl vinaiyEn azudhAl unnaip peRalAmE
thEnE amudhE karumbin theLivE thiththikkum
mAnE aruLAy aDiyEn unai van^dhu uRumARE

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on May 04, 2012, 09:07:25 PM
Dear i,

the beauty of Guruvachaka Kovai is enhanced when read along with Manickavachakar's Thiruvachaka kovai

i am happy at least i became acquainted with these!

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on May 04, 2012, 09:15:46 PM
Dear i,

i request you to kindly post verses from GVK TVK at your convinience, it would be really wonderful !

What treasure we have in our hands, i guess, we don't even fathom the value of these! Our Yajna would be to read it, assimilate the Bhavam of Manickavachakar and Muruganar.

This itself would suffice!

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on May 04, 2012, 10:19:15 PM
Dear i,

Please visit this link below, you will find many tamizh literature works available online. If you open the file in Unicode type, you would be able to simply copy and paste here, for your ease.

http://www.projectmadurai.org/pmworks.html (http://www.projectmadurai.org/pmworks.html)

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 05, 2012, 09:53:27 AM
Dear Nagaraj,

Thanks for the information.  Somehow I am not able to use this technique of copying and pasting. I shall try after some time.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 05, 2012, 05:13:50 PM
Padam made me merge in the essence of the Tiruvachakam, revealing it to be the ultimate conclusion of the Vedas.                       
                                                                                                           Padamalai

Padam opened my Heart in such a way that that the exalted essence that could not be seen anywhere came to be seen everywhere.
                                                                                                           Padamalai


Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Thank you so much, sir, for posting Sublime Verses from the Great Devotional Work, Tiruvachakam. Sri Bhagwan Himself often cited from this Great Work and had very high regard for it. It is mentioned in the Padamalai that on the night that Sri Bhagwan’s Mother passed away, He initiated a reading of the Great Work and that only concluded at 4 a.m. Sri Bhagwan’s Statements and Views regarding the Tiruvachakam are recorded by Sri Muruganar in following Verses in the Padamalai:

Manikavachagar’s Tiruvachakam expresses in words the exuberant, graceful experience of Sivam, which transcends speech.

Tiruvachakam is a work that deserves to be experienced. The meaning of its sweet verses is beyond intellectual knowledge.

The Tiruvachakam is a sea of divine honey expressing the God-experience that puts an end to the birth misery of getting caught in the womb.

Dear sir, is there available a good English translation of the Great Work, i.e. Tiruvachakam ? If yes, how can I get one for myself.

Regards,
  Anil           
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 05, 2012, 05:18:07 PM
Dear Anil,

The oldest English translation done in 1900 is by G.U. Pope, a Jesuit father. But this is in Victorian English. There is one more
by Dr. Vanmika Nathan. I shall try to get you the publisher's name and place since I do not have that copy.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 05, 2012, 05:19:55 PM
Dear Anil,

But some songs of Tiruvachakam like Tiruembavai and PoRRi tiruahaval have been rendered in Tamizh by Robert Butler,
David Godman and Dr. Venkatasubaramanian. These have been published in different issues of Mountain Path in recent
years.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 05, 2012, 05:20:49 PM
Dear Devotees,

Complete surrender means that one must cease to exist as a separate entity. True surrender does mean union with God. The real goal of the true surrender is the extinction of the sense of being an individual who can unite with God. Sri Bhagwan says that complete surrender means that one has no further thought of ‘I’. Then all one’s predispositions are washed off and one is free.

“YOU SHOULD NOT CONTINUE AS A SEPARATE ENTITY AT THE END OF EITHER COURSE—ENQUIRY OR SURRENDER.

Thank you,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on May 05, 2012, 05:37:43 PM
From Talks 164

D.: What is Renunciation?
M.: Giving up of the ego.
D.: Is it not giving up possessions?
M.: The possessor too.

we have no say anymore, like Bhagavan said, Ninnishtam - Ennishtam, your wish is my wish.

as quoted before by Subramanian Sir -

Sri Bhagavan says to Muruganar (in Sri Ramana Sanndhi Murai):

(He said) iruntha padiye iru enRAn  - Be what you are.
(He said) guru aruL cheluthum vazhikke chel enRAn - Go the way in which the grace of Guru directs you to.

We have no more headache of choosing, deciding, judging.



Again, Dear i,

this is slightly tricky, continuing from the other post, the struggle of the emerged 'i' is being fully stripped, like an onion, as we keep stripping the skin one by one, nothing remains. it is to a certain extant a painful process (as long as the 'i' remains) it is giving up!, giving up is not easy! Giving up means to die, losing complete power, nothing more in my hands! the emerged 'i' realises this, ultimately, he has to let go, but, it is a struggle, from within. pure jnana can make this easier, knowledge can make it lighter. I may be rambling too much here on these subtle things, but, i see how important it is to stick to this vulnerable point, for, here is where, the darkness needs to be annihilated.

what is this struggle to give up? why does it not easily give up, completely, in the spirit as - "“YOU SHOULD NOT CONTINUE AS A SEPARATE ENTITY AT THE END OF EITHER COURSE—ENQUIRY OR SURRENDER."

what 'know how' can facilitate this smoothly. which is why i have strongly come to trust these words of Bhagavan, which is, perhaps, a smooth way out -

Bhagavan says (talks 40) -

"Unless intellectually known, how to practice it? Learn it intellectually first, then do not stop with that. Practise it."

Therefore, it is evident, there is a lack of understanding here, that, the vulnerability exists because, it is unable to grasp this. It knows, yet, it does not! It is bordering to suicide, yet, it is not really a suicide, it has to cease to really remain! It is Resurrection, of sorts.

Musings... thank you

Salutations to Bhagavan

Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 05, 2012, 05:42:42 PM
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Ji. Yes. Thank you so much, sir. I shall be very happy to get the translation of the the Great Work by Dr. Sri Vanmika Nathan. I await to get publisher's name and place from you. 

Quote:
"But some songs of Tiruvachakam like Tiruembavai and PoRRi tiruahaval have been rendered in Tamizh by Robert Butler,
David Godman and Dr. Venkatasubaramanian. These have been published in different issues of Mountain Path in recent
years."

Dear sir, is there not a compilation of the same, in a book-form, available in the Ashramam Book-depot? I do not get copies of the Mountain Path regularly by post. I collect my copies only when I visit Sri Ramanasramam.

Regards,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 05, 2012, 05:52:37 PM
Dear /anil,

There is no book form compilation. But I can post you the issue numbers and years soon.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 06, 2012, 05:23:50 PM
Namo Ramanaya is the wisdom and learning.
Namo Ramanaya is the mantra we know.
Namao Ramanaya is for tongue a rare ornament.
Namo Ramanaya brings us to the right path.


Namo Ramanaya is indestructible.
Namo Ramanaya is what ‘I’ imports.
Namo Ramanaya cherished at heart
Namo ramanaya yields the highest results.


Namo Ramanaya is what shines ahead of us.
Namo Ramanaya is what makes shine.
Namo Ramanaya is what shines as we.
Namo Ramanaya is Wisdom, Being and Bliss.


Namo Ramanaya is the knower and being known.
Namo Ramanaya is the illumination of wisdom.
Namo Ramanaya is the universe entire.
Namo Ramanaya is our own Self-Being.

       From Tirumantiram, Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai   


Thank you,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 07, 2012, 03:07:32 PM
Padam [God] questions: ’When the burden of this  world, created by myself, is for me alone, why should you have that thought ?
                                                                                                                          Padamalai

It is God who manages and protects the many worlds. The imagining of jivas, who are just a multitude of reflections, that they are bearing the burden of the world is a farce.
                                                                                                                           Padamalai                             
                                             

Dear Devotees,

Sri Bhagwan says that surrender can take full effect only when it is done with full knowledge as to what surrender really means. Such knowledge comes after enquiry and reflection and ends invariably in self-surrender.
Dear devotees, Sri Bhagwan says that there is no difference between Jnana and absolute surrender to the Lord; there will be no distinction when the surrender is complete.

Thank you,
   Anil   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 07, 2012, 05:52:33 PM
Dear Anil,

Muruganar says in of his verses: He (Sri Bhagavan) told me: Iruntha padikke iru - Be as you are. Guru aruL chelutthum
vazhikke sel - In the worldly matters, go as per the directions of the Guru.

The first is Self Inquiry.

The second is self surrender.

Muruganar also has said: OdukinRa neeril kiLLipotta ilayai pol iru - Be like that bit of leaf thrown on the running waters.
Go as the waters take you; do not resist.

This is also self surrender.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on May 07, 2012, 06:23:05 PM
Dear i,

i am impelled to recollect the instances of first visit of Muruganar, the background that led to his poetical compositions:

Will I, an unworthy ignorant one, ever be accepted as a devotee by Lord Siva who, as the Divine Guru with the wealth of grace, showed clearly to the world the greatness of Manikkavachagar? And even if I get such a chance, will I be able to sing of the glories of his grace-showering feet in the same way as Tiruvachakam [Manikkavachagar's most famous poetical work]?'

Like many other thoughts that arose in my mind, this thought, a long time ago, appeared and disappeared, like a flash of lightning manifesting in the sky.

Then I heard from devotees who had redeemed themselves by taking as their support the grace of the one at Tiruvannamalai, who is the embodiment of true jnana, and who shines as the flame of true tapas. When they spoke of the greatness of his grace, they melted in joy. Hearing them, I was lost in admiration and unceasing joy…

The compassionate Supreme One, who is endowed with jnana, then decided in his heart to be my Lord and Master. In the same way that wax melts on encountering fire, on seeing his feet, my mind dissolved and lost its form.

There was in me a thirst, an intense longing to subside [into the Self], that was prompted by the thought of the divine feet, which abound in grace. So, like one who, suffering from thirst, comes across a Ganges of cold water, on an auspicious day, a golden day for my thirst, I went [to Ramana Maharshi] with eleven verses that began 'Leaving Mount Kailas…' and met the excellent sage, the jnana Guru, the ocean of mauna, the bestower of jnana.

In the same way that wax melts on encountering fire, on seeing his feet, my mind dissolved and lost its form. Like the calf finding its mother, my heart melted and rejoiced in his feet. The hairs on my body stood on end. Devotion surged in me like an ocean that has seen the full moon. Through the grace of chitsakti [the power inherent in consciousness], my soul was in ecstasy.

With an unsteady and quivering voice, I read the eleven verses and placed them at his feet. At that very moment he graciously looked at me with his lotus eyes. From that day on, the praises given out by my impartial tongue belonged only to him.

From the way he bestowed his grace, becoming my Lord and Master, I was completely convinced that he was Siva himself. As my new 'owner', he made my 'I' and 'mine' his own.

Even if I get submerged in the miry mud [of this world], I will not forget the mighty nobility of the bountiful bestower of grace.

(The Power of the Presence, David Godman)



Will I, an unworthy ignorant one, ever be accepted as a devotee by Lord Siva who, as the Divine Guru with the wealth of grace, showed clearly to the world the greatness of Manikkavachagar? And even if I get such a chance, will I be able to sing of the glories of his grace-showering feet in the same way as Tiruvachakam

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 08, 2012, 04:48:22 PM
Dear Devotees,

It is said that Bhakti is Jnana Mata, or the Mother of Jnana. Sri Bhagwan has on several occasions said that all talks of surrender is like pinching jiggery from the jiggery image of Lord Ganesha. Therefore, it follows that at best, we can say only that we falsely imagined till now that all these which are Lord’s were ours. Now we realize that all are yours.  “I shall no more act as if they are mine.”

And, dear devotees, THE KNOWLEDGE THAT THERE IS NOTHING BUT GOD OR THE SELF, THAT ‘I’ OR ‘MINE’ DO NOT REALLY EXIST, IS JNANA. Thus there is no difference between Bhakti and jnana. Bhakti is the Jnana Mata.

Thank you,
   Anil
   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 09, 2012, 07:07:51 AM
Observe the disciplines of external conduct, knowing in your heart their real object by properly reflecting on their inner meaning.
                                                                       Padamalai

Dear Devotees,

Some visitors who came for Sri Bhagwan’s darshan used to perform ashtanga namaskaram in the traditional way. They believed that this practice, done devoutly, was indispensible for those who wanted His Grace.
However, in spiritual life mere mechanical observance of any sadhana, without knowing its inner meaning, will not make one blessed. In order to drive home this point, Sri Bhagwan, addressing one such devotee, said, “The benefit of performing namaskaram to the Guru is only the removal of the ego. This is not attained except by surrender. Within the Heart of each devotee the gracious Guru is giving darshan in the form of consciousness. To surrender is to offer fully, in silence, the subsided ego, which is a mere name-and-form thought, to the Aham-sphurana, or the effulgence of ‘I’, THE REAL HOLY FEET OF THE GRACIOUS GURU.

Self-Realisation cannot be attained by merely bowing of the body, but only by the bowing of the ego. It follows therefore that if spiritual practices are to yield their fruits without fail, they should be practiced with a full awareness of their purpose.

Thank you,
   Anil     
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on May 09, 2012, 10:47:14 AM
Meekness

இணைஞ்சிநடக் கின்ற வியபினள வானெ
நிறைஞ்சுவரு மாந்தர் நிலைமை மறந்தும்
மலகுமகங் காரமெழா மாண்பெ யிறைவற்
குலகடங்கத் தாழு முயர்வு
(494, GVK)

Innain.cinattak Kinnnrra Viyalpinnnalla Vaannne
Nirrain.cuvaru Maandar Nilaimai Marrandum
Malagumagang Kaaramezhaa Maannape Yirraivarr
Kulakattanggat Daazhu Muyarvu

One's nearness to perfection may be measured by the meekness of one's behavior. When even unawares one's turbid ego never rises, one attains the height supreme of meekness which all the world adores in God.

என்றாலுஞ் சிடர்தமை யெற்ற குணமென்னும்
குன்றெறி தின்ற குரவொர்தம் பொன்றா
அனுபுதி யாற்சொனநல் லாற்றினக ணூன்றிக்
களவெயு நிற்றல் கடன்
(798, GVK))

Ennnrraalun. Sittartamai Yerrrra Gunnamennnnnnum
Gunnnrrerri Dinnnrra Guravordam Ponnnrraa
Annnuputi Yaarrsonnnanal Laarrrrinnnaka Nnuunnnarrik
Kallaveyu Nirrrral Kattannn

"Once caught in Guru's grace one can't esacpe." Even so, one's duty is, awake or dreaming, to walk firm upon the path based on experience, taught and shown by masters who stand high through gracious kindness to disciples.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on May 09, 2012, 10:55:24 AM
True meaning of prostration

ஊமாஞ் சிவ னுடையான் றிருவடிக்கிழ்
மானமுடி செர்க்கும் வணக்கந்தான் ் யானென்னுஞ்
சிவபொ தத்தைச் செறுத்துச் சிவபொத
மெவலா மாங்கதன் மெல்
(207, GVK)

Uumaan. Civa Nnnuttaiyaannn Rriruvattikkizh
Maannnamutti Serkkum Vannakkantaannn  Yaannnennnnnnun.
Civapo Tattaic Cerruttuc Civapoda
Mevalaa Maanggatannn Mel

When the imperfect jiva bows, his proud head at the Feet of God, it means the overcoming of 'I' the individual self, by, the knowledge-contemplation of Siva-Awareness.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 09, 2012, 02:14:11 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

David Godman for this Verse 207 of GVK, quotes from Sri Ramana Darsanam:

Bhagavan: The true meaning of namaskaram is the ego bowing its head and getting destroyed at the feet of Guru.
(This also comes in Padamalai, of Muruganar)

A certain lady, who had a lot of devotion, performed a traditional ritual for worshipping sages whenever she came into
Sri Bhagavan's presence to have darshan. She would prostrate to Bhagavan, touch His feet and then put the hands that
had touched Bhagavan's feet on her eyes.

After noticing that she did this daily, Bhagavan made the following remarks:

Only the Supreme Self, which is ever shining in your Heart as the Reality, is the Sadguru. The pure awareness, which is
shining as the inward illumination 'I', is his gracious feet. The contact with these (inner holy feet) alone can give you true
redemption. Joining the eye of reflected consciousness (chidabhasa) which is your sense of individuality (jiva bodha), to those
holy feet, which are the real consciousness, is the union of the feet and the head that is the real significance of the word 'asi',
in Tattvam asi. As these inner holy feet can be held naturally and unceasingly, hereafter, with an inward  turned mind, cling to that
inner awareness that is your own real nature. This alone is the proper way for the removal of bondage and the attainment  of the
Supreme Truth.

*

'Asi' which means 'are' refers to the Mahavakya tat tvam asi (You are That). Bhagavan's metaphor indicates that the inner
state of being is revealed when individuality is merged in the 'holy feet' of pure consciousness.

Arunachala Siva.                 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on May 09, 2012, 04:33:01 PM
Dear i,

yes, without the knowledge of the true import, what a great deluge of ignorance would it to be? even now, we may not be that pure or a great devotee, but just this bit of grace of knowledge of Bhagavan has really saved us from who knows how many more births?

Quote
As these inner holy feet can be held naturally and unceasingly, hereafter, with an inward  turned mind, cling to that
inner awareness that is your own real nature. This alone is the proper way for the removal of bondage and the attainment  of the
Supreme Truth.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 09, 2012, 04:41:19 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

The entire Padamalai of Muruganar is only about PAdam which is actually padam (source).

Saint Manikkavachagar says in his TirutoL Nokkam in Tiruvachakam:

This is about Chandeswara Nayanar.

When he was doing blemishless siva karmam,
his father came and kicked the sivalingam (made of sand)
immediately he took his cowherd's stick*
and cut off both the legs of his father,
And took Siva's legs as refuge and place of salvation.

(*the stick became an axe instantly.)

Theehilliai mAni sivakarumam chithaithAnai.......   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 10, 2012, 08:42:59 AM
Love flowing like a stream of oil towards the Supreme Lord, even without his desire, takes the mind of a person surely to his true form.
                                                                                     V. 4, Ch. 16, Sri Ramana Gita

Dear Devotees,

Truth is that we cannot live without loving the Lord. We cannot help being devoted. Can we ? We all love ourselves. Don’t we? That is the experience. This is because the Self, in truth, is the dearest object. Sri Bhagwan says that the Self or Lord is not somewhere else but is inside each of us. AND IN LOVING ONESELF, ONE LOVES ONLY THE SELF.

Dear devotees, we must know the Consciousness which alone is the experience of the True Love. Sensory experiences are not the Consciousness. These are spurious and the false reflection and only a semblance of the True Love.

Thank you,
  Anil   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 11, 2012, 08:26:53 AM
Contnd from my last post:

Dear Devotees,

Sri Bhagwan has taught that to abide as one really is in the Heart, one must love the Self. Unless one loves the Self as one’s own Swarupa, it is impossible to abide as the Self in the Heart.

The Self is of the Nature of Happiness—Sukha Swarupa. Has not every being love flowing towards itself? When one realises the Atma-Swarupa, devoid of ego, the Supreme Lord shines as one’s own Self.

When love natural melts towards the Supreme Lord and reaches there where abides the Beloved—the Supreme Consciousness who is the same as Sri Arunachala or Sri Bhagwan, He reveals Himself as Pure Knowledge and that is Jnana. Therefore, Atma-Jnana is also called by another name ‘Parabhakti’ or the Supreme Devotion. Hence, Sri Bhagwan teaches that ‘Parabhakti’ and Atma-Jnana are not different.

Thank you,
  Anil 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 12, 2012, 09:34:36 AM
Dear Devotees,

Sri Adi Shankara sings  in ‘Sivananda Lahiri’:

Bhakti is a matter only for experience and not for words. How can logic and other polemics be of any real use ? INSTEAD, THINK OF THE FEET OF THE EVER BLISSFUL LORD AND DRINK THE NECTAR!

Wherever or however it be, only let the mind lose itself in the Supreme. It is Yoga! It is Bliss. OR THE YOGI OR THE BLISS INCARNATE!

To worship God with flowers and other external objects is troublesome. Only lay the single flower, the heart, at the feet of Siva and remain at Peace. NOT TO KNOW THIS SIMPLE THING AND TO WANDER ABOUT! HOW FOOLISH! WHAT MISERY!

THE MIND LOSING ITSELF IN SIVA’S FEET IS DEVOTION. IGNORANCE LOST! KNOWLEDGE! LIBERATION!
Note: I do not have the exact numbers of the above cited Verses.

Thank you,
    Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 12, 2012, 12:17:46 PM
Dear anil,

Only yesterday when I was in Chennai to attend a wedding, an old spiritual lady was talking about Sivananda Lahari to me.
Sri Sankara says: No flowers are required to be submitted. No puja is necessary. Only His names should be chanted silently.
No naivdedyam (food offering) is necessary. Only our monkey mind should be offered to Him. No Oblations are needed.
Cry and cry and give the tears to Him and this is the oblations.

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 12, 2012, 02:26:40 PM
Quote from Sri Subramanian Sir:
“Sri Sankara says: No flowers are required to be submitted. No puja is necessary. Only His names should be chanted silently.
No naivdedyam (food offering) is necessary. Only our monkey mind should be offered to Him. No Oblations are needed.
Cry and cry and give the tears to Him and this is the oblations.”

Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

No flower, no puja, only His Name should be chanted silently.
No naivedyam, no oblation, only monkey mind should be offered to Him.
CRY, CRY, AND CRY, AND GIVE ONLY TEARS IN OBLATION TO HIM.

This indeed is a very beautiful and inspiring Verse. Thank you so much, sir.

Dear sir, I have not read Sri Adi Shankara’s Shivananda Lahiri. But whenever I read cited Verses from the great work, they touched and inspired me greatly.
Before coming to Sri Bhagwan, I had not studied a single work by Sri Adi Shankara, though I regarded Him a great spiritual teacher on Advaita who revived ‘Sanatana Dharma’. But when I came to Sri Bhagwan, I gradually understood His Greatness. And since then, I have studied Viveka Chudamani, Atma Bodha, etc. composed by Him.  Now I also know that the essence of His Teaching is the same as Sri Bhagwan.

Regards,
  Anil     


Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 12, 2012, 03:02:55 PM
Dear anil,

Sri Adi Sankara's Sivananda Lahari is a beautiful poem of 100 verses on Siva. It is full of bhatki. It will be delightful to see
a Brhama Jnani who went to the pinnacle of Jnana at the age of 8 in the presence of Govinda Bhagavadpada to come down
to our level and compose many short stotras and long poems like Sri Sivananda Lahari for us.  Sri Sankara also wrote Sri
Soundarya Lahari describing the incomparable beauty of Mother but there, there are many mantras embedded. One should
read them carefully without pronunciation mistakes and built in mantras should be initiated by a guru in Sakta marga well
versed and competent.  Sivananda Lahari is not so. It is a beautiful and poem of sheer devotion. Both the books are
available in Sri Ramakrishna Math, with Sanskrit slokas and English meanings.

Arunachala Siva.   
     
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 13, 2012, 09:15:27 AM
Quote from Sivananda Lahari:
“Wherever or however it be, only let the mind lose itself in the Supreme. It is Yoga! It is Bliss. OR THE YOGI OR THE BLISS INCARNATE!

To worship God with flowers and other external objects is troublesome. Only lay the single flower, the heart, at the feet of Siva and remain at Peace. NOT TO KNOW THIS SIMPLE THING AND TO WANDER ABOUT! HOW FOOLISH! WHAT MISERY!

THE MIND LOSING ITSELF IN SIVA’S FEET IS DEVOTION. IGNORANCE LOST! KNOWLEDGE! LIBERATION!”

Quote from Sri Subramanian Sir”
“It will be delightful to see
a Brhama Jnani who went to the pinnacle of Jnana at the age of 8 in the presence of Govinda Bhagavadpada to come down
to our level and compose many short stotras and long poems like Sri Sivananda Lahari for us.”


Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

By composing a beautiful and sublime poem of 100 Verses on the devotion to Lord Siva, such as, Sivananda Lahari, I do not think that the Great Acharya descended from the pinnacle of Jnana and came down to our level. For example, these sublime verses below also imply that Jnana and Bhakti are the same besides portraying ‘ananya Bhakti’ to the Lord Shiva. 

“Wherever or however it be, only let the mind lose itself in the Supreme. It is Yoga! It is Bliss. OR THE YOGI OR THE BLISS INCARNATE!

To worship God with flowers and other external objects is troublesome. Only lay the single flower, the heart, at the feet of Siva and remain at Peace. NOT TO KNOW THIS SIMPLE THING AND TO WANDER ABOUT! HOW FOOLISH! WHAT MISERY!

THE MIND LOSING ITSELF IN SIVA’S FEET IS DEVOTION. IGNORANCE LOST! KNOWLEDGE! LIBERATION!”

Thank you so much, sir.

Regards,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 13, 2012, 02:50:51 PM
That which should be attained is true Jnana; that which the mind should meditate upon is the feet of God; that on which one should firmly depend upon is satsang; that which should well up in the Heart is peace.
                                               V. 501, GVK, Edited by Sri D.Godman

Sri Muruganar comments that the phrase, ‘that which should well up in the Heart is peace’, explains the greatness of the stillness which is known as the Peace, and the phrase, ‘that which the mind should meditate upon is the Feet of God’, implies surrender.

Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 14, 2012, 07:58:13 AM
By turning towards the Self, a person should dive within and enquire, ‘Who is the bogus entity who says “I”?’ Through that enquiry he should die willingly in the Atma-swarupa, which is devoid of the ego, and which is the true form of God. The excellence of the state of mauna that then shines, and with which he is indistinguishably merged, is the consummation of the practice of surrender.
                             V. 1189, GVK, Edited by Sri D. Godman

Dear Devotees,

The ego being unreal, it should die consciously, willingly and deliberately in Vichara. To renounce the ego thus is to offer up one’s self in surrender and to be absorbed, through surrender of the self, in the non-dual state of Mauna, is the Supreme Truth. One is then indistinguishably merged in the excellence of the state of Mauna in which dualistic appearances do not arise. This is the perfect consummation of the practice of surrender.
The cited Verse also explains that God is not different from Atma-swarupa. Atma-swarupa alone is the true form of God.
ONE IS. THE TRUE FORM OF GOD IS THE NATURAL STATE OF PURE BEING.

Thank you,
  Anil       
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 15, 2012, 07:03:30 AM
Devotee : How can one worship God best?
Sri Bhagwan : How can you best worship God? Why, by not trying to worship him, by giving up your whole self to him, and showing that every thought, every action, is only a working of that One Life (God).

Dear Devotees,

God works perfectly in our unconscious virtuous actions. Sri Bhagwan says that even a Master, when instructing, is far from any thought of instructing. To feel a doubt or a difficulty in His Presence is to elicit the wonderful words which will clear away that doubt or the difficulty. Those words, being words of Grace, never fail. A Master with His heart fixed on God, realising perfectly that no action is a personal one, making no claim to have either originated the thought or to have been the means of destroying a doubt, saying ‘I’ or ‘Mine’ seeing only God in every thought and action, whether they be yours or His, feels no surprise, no special pleasure to Himself in having allayed your doubt. He never desires to feel pleasures.
He says:
Who is it that feels pleasure ? Why, God.
What is pleasure?
Why the appreciation-instinctive or otherwise of God.
Who is the so called ‘I’?
‘I’ is God.
God is pleasure. If I desire perpetual pleasure, I must forget myself, and be that which is pleasure itself, viz., God.
                                                                                        Source: Know Thyself, Sri A. R. Natarajan.

Thank you,
   Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 16, 2012, 07:17:48 PM
Devotee: I long for Bhakti. I want more of this longing. Even realization does not matter to me. Let me be strong in my longing.

Sri Bhagwan : If the longing is there, realization will be forced on you  even if you do not want it.

   
Dear Devotees,

That is it. Longing for Bhakti! Sri Bhagwan says that we should long for it intensely so that the mind melts in devotion.. After camphor burns away no residue is left. The mind is like the camphor. When it is merged or resolved into the Self, without  leaving slightest trace behind, it is Realisation of the Self.

Thank you,
  Anil


Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 16, 2012, 07:37:47 PM
Dear anil,

Saint Manikkavazchagar says: (Tiruk kazhum kunRa padigam - Verse 3:

pooNonAtha thor anbu pooNdu porunthi nAL thorum poRRavum
nAnAthor nANam eithi naduk kadaluL azhunthi nAn
PeNonAtha perunthuRai perunth thoNi paRRi uhaithalum
kAnonAtha thiruk kolam nee vanthu kAttinAi kazhukkunRile....

I had the love for you, which I have not had before, I always came to You everyday to praise your glory!
I became shy towards you which I have not had before, now I am in deep sea drowning
You came as a boat in Tiruperundurai and I took hold of it,.
You showed me your form which I had not seen before, in Tiruk kazhuk kunRam.

Unlimited love, unlimited praise and glory towards god. Getting shy occasionally about my inadequacy.
But the boat came which I gripped in Tiruperundurai.
You showed me your form which I had not seen before.

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on May 16, 2012, 07:52:12 PM
Dear i,

the same verse in tamizh:

பூணொணாததொரன்பு பூண்டு பொருந்திநாள்தொறும் போற்றரும்
நாணொணாததொர்நாணம் எய்தி நடுக்கடலுள் அழுந்திநான்
பேணொணாதபெருந்துறைப்பெருந் தோணிபற்றியுகைத்தலுங்
காணொணாத்திருக்கோலம் நீவந்து காட்டினாய் கழுக்குன்றிலே.


Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 16, 2012, 08:11:11 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

Sri Bhagavan has also mentioned this verse on some occasion.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 17, 2012, 08:26:11 AM
Quote:
“You showed me your form which I had not seen before, in Tiruk kazhuk kunRam”.

Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Thank you so much, sir, for posting this sublime Verse. The Great Saint and the Sage, Sri Mannikavachhagar’s Utterance is the quint essence of the unparalleled and unwavering devotion to the Lord. His longing is so palpable. How I wish to have the same love in my heart, to have the capacity to emulate Him !

Dear sir, what does ‘Tirk kazhuk kunRam’ mean in the cited line of the Verse  ? I also wish to know as to why ‘Tiruperundurai’ seems to be closely associated with His Name. I understand that it must be a spiritual centre somewhere in the great Tamil land and also that it is somehow closely associated with His Name.

Dear sir, I am still awaiting to have from you the issue numbers of the Mountain Path in which English translation of the Verses from the great Tiruvaccakam have been published. Besides, you also hinted that there is an English translation of the same in existence and therefore I hoped to have the source as well as the publisher’s name from you of the book also.

Thank you so much, sir.

Regards,
  Anil



Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 17, 2012, 01:59:55 PM
Dear Anil,

TiruperunduRai is a town, nowadays called Avudaiyar Kovil near Nagapattinam. Esoterically tiruperun durai also means the Great
Shore, the shore of liberation, when one swims across the ocean of samsara and reach to.

tiru kazhukundram is again a town. It is near Chingelput in Tamizh Nadu. Here the Saint had his second darshan of Guru, Shiva.
First he had it in tiruperundurai.

In tirukazhu kundram, two vultures promptly come at 11 am everyday and take the cooked rice given by the priest. The two
vultures are said to be two rishis. kundram means hillock. The temple of Siva is on the hillock. kazhuku in Tamizh means vulture.

Arunachala Siva.,       
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Nagaraj on May 17, 2012, 08:03:33 PM
கொதறுமெய்ஞ் ஞானக் கொழுந்தாங் குருமுர்த்தி
பாதமது சந்திக்கும் பான்மையொர்க் கெதமறு
பத்திதரு மந்தப் பரனருளான் மெய்jய்ஞான
தித்திவருஞ் சித்தந் தெளிந்து
(GVK 305)

Kodarrumeyn. Nyaannnak Kozhundaang Gurumurtti
Paadamadu Sandikkum Paannnmaiyork Kedamarru
Pattitaru Mandap Parannnarullaannn Meyjynyaannna
Tittivarun. Sitdan Tellindu

Who meditates on Guru's feet, the flawless flame of pure awareness, gains from grace supreme the gift of pure awareness, clarity of mind that ends all sorrow.

therefore, True meaning of Guru Padukas, the feet of Guru, lies within oneself, as that awareness, shining effulgence, and seeking that effulgence constantly is the true essence of Prostration, surrender. And, when one touches that feet of awareness, one is free of all sorrows. This is the true essence of Guru Paduka Worship.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 19, 2012, 05:10:52 PM
Devotee: Why did the Self manifest as this miserable world?
Sri Bhagwan : In order that you might seek it. Your eyes cannot see themselves. Place a mirror before them and they see themselves. Similarly with this creation.

“SEE YOURSERLF FIRST AND THEN SEE THE WHOLE WORLD AS THE SELF”
                                                                   
                                                                                          Talk—272


Dear Devotees,

Here Sri Bhagwan  is not teaching that one should shut his eyes from the world. He is teaching that first one should see oneself and then see the world as the Self. At present the world appears to be external to us, but that is only with respect to the body. Because we consider ourselves at present to be the body. If we are the Self, the world appears as the Brahman. 

We are not apart from God. But so long as we consider ourselves to be the body, we see the world as external and myriad imperfections appear to us. However, Sri Bhagwan says that GOD IS PERFECTION. HIS WORK IS ALSO PERFECTION. BUT WE SEE IT AS IMPERFECTION BECAUSE OF OUR WRONG IDENTIFICATION.

Devotee: So it amounts to this—that I should always look within.
Sri Bhagwan: YES.


Thank you,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 19, 2012, 05:37:20 PM
Dear Anil,

See the world after knowing the Self. Then the whole world will be Brahmaswarupam.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 19, 2012, 08:57:01 PM
Dear Subramanian Sir,

Ji. Yes. Self is verily the Brahman.  ‘Seeing the Self’ or being the Self’ means ‘being the Self’. If one is  Self, the whole world then is the Self or the Swarupam. If one is Self or the Swarupam the whole world is Brahmaswarupam.     

Thank you so much, sir.

Regards,
   Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 19, 2012, 09:06:55 PM
  The second line in my last post should read 'Seeing the Self or 'knowing the Self' means 'being the Self'.' Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 11:16:20 AM
Dear Anil,

Once one of the earliest devotees, Akhilandamma (from Desur; she was a devotee of both Seshadri Swami and Sri Bhagavan)
came and asked Sri Bhagavan to tell her some mantra which she could chant. Sri Bhagavan  said: What mantra can I give?
Always keep saying to Arunachala - ennaiye enakku kodu. Please give me my Self.

Asking Arunachala to give back my Self (without the little 'i' making farces) is the highest surrender.

Saint Manikkavachagar sang: I do not want glory to myself. I do not want wealth.  I do not want this earth or the heaven.
I do not want birth and death. I do not want even to touch those who do not want Sivam. I had the golden feet of Siva of
tiruperundurai. I do not want to go away from that. I do not want you to leave me and go elsewhere!
(UyiruNNi pathu, Decad on the ego eater, Verse 7).

Arunachala Siva.   
 
 
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 21, 2012, 03:32:54 PM
Seeing God without seeing oneself, the seer of the objects seen, is seeing but a mental image. He who, by losing the base (ego) sees the Self, the source of himself, alone truly sees God, because Self is not other than God.
                                                                                            V.20, Ulladu Narpadu


Dear Devotees,

Sri Bhagwan says that there is no one who has not seen God. God vision is natural to all. Ignorance consists in not being aware of this natural experience of truth. Ego which is of the form ‘I am the body’ is the wrong knowledge. Loss of ego means gaining God. KNOWING ONESELF IS KNOWING GOD, AND KNOWING GOD IS ONLY ABIDING AS THE SELF. Therefore, Self-realisation is God-realisation. Self and God are not different.
“THE CONSCIOUSNESS WITHIN, PURGED OF THE MIND, IS FELT AS GOD.”

Thank you,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 21, 2012, 06:54:35 PM
Quote:
“I do not want even to touch those who do not want Sivam. I had the golden feet of Siva of
tiruperundurai. I do not want to go away from that. I do not want you to leave me and go elsewhere!”

Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

I remember that once you posted the esoteric meaning of Tiruperundurai as the ’Shore of Liberation’. So, having reached the Golden Feet of Shiva of the Shore of Liberation, all is Shivam only for Him. Whatever He touches is Shivam; wherever He goes it is the Golden Feet of Shiva of Tiruperundurai.

Thank you so much, sir.

Regards,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 22, 2012, 06:41:31 PM
WHAT DOES BHAGWAN SRI RAMANA MEAN TO YOU ?
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 22, 2012, 08:31:01 PM
Dear Anil,

Sri Ramana Bhagavan means to me that He is the one and only Guru who can take me ashore!

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 23, 2012, 08:47:30 AM
Spreading afar the light of Self-enquiry
And enriching each beholder’s being to ripeness,
May my Father’s Presence in this temple
Serve as the living heart of all earth’s creeds
And shine for ever beyond the sun and the moon.
                                                Sri Ramana Sannidhi Murai


Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Ji. Yes. Thank you so much, sir, for your response. I also have the same faith. For me, as for many, many others, His Grace is the beginning, middle, and the end.

Regards,
  Anil   
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Hari on July 25, 2013, 11:13:28 PM
Question: What is unconditional surrender?
Sri Ramana Maharshi: If one surrenders oneself there will be no one to ask questions or to be thought of. Either the thoughts are eliminated by holding on to the root-thought ‘I’, or one surrenders oneself unconditionally to the highest power. These are the only two ways for realization.


This reminds me that we don't know what real surrender is. Do we really surrender something? When we go to church or temple may be the only thing we surrender is the time spent there or some money for candles. Do we really surrender something by our heart? The real surrender I have been witnessed is parent's surrender to their children. They really give everything to their children by all the heart they have and all the love they are capable of.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on October 09, 2013, 02:38:23 PM
Dear Devotees,

What follows is a passage from an article named “WHAT I SAW IN SRI BHAGWAN”, written by  the famous devotee, Sri Duncan Greenlees and published in the ‘Golden Jubilee Souvenir, 1946’:

“His Message comes in many forms, according to the needs of those who come to Him. Once a party of Muslims came. They asked Him, “Sir, what is the highest goal of human life?” In one word He gave the whole essence of spiritual truth, the heart of their great religion as of every other.  He said, “Islam”. That is the secret of His greatness, perfect simplicity. Islam, self-surrender to the Supreme Being, whom we delight in knowing and loving as God; Islam alone can bring Salam, or Peace. The only real Peace,  which is eternal, infinite, divine is that which flows in upon, wells up from, floods and floats the soul that throws itself away in loving surrender to the Good Father, from whom and in whom all are, to whom all shall return at last. Statesmen try to build a world peace in vain while they ignore the only possible foundation for true peace."

Pranam,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on October 16, 2013, 09:00:38 AM
I say that I have surrendered,
But what have I given up?
It’s easy to talk in this fashion
Though it’s nothing but empty words,
Which come from the tongue to glibly
In a sentimental way.

I am tired of all talk and no action,
But better than either of these
Is the Silence of the Spirit,
The Silence we find with You, (Sri Bhagwan)
A potent and thundering Silence
Which swallows all up in itself.
 Sri Sadhu Arunachala (Major A.W. Chadwick)


Dear Devotees,

Sri Chadwick goes on singing that when there is no longer the talk of surrender, then alone has surrender begun.
In the culminating phases of the Self-enquiry, the mind becomes perfectly still and the seeker has to keep his AIM firmly fixed on the Self, and steadfastly maintain the Self-attention inwardly with an attitude of prayerfulness and wait for the Self to reveal Itself. Dear devotees, what happens from here now does not depend on our effort. In fact, such a seeker and devotee has reached a state of effortlessness and he cannot make any further effort. One enters the Realm of Grace and the remaining task is accomplished by the Grace alone.
When we persevere in this supreme method of Enquiry, we gradually, as the ‘I’-consciousness begins to separate itself from the body and the mind, begin to perceive that all our actions of the body and the mind go on without the participation of the ‘I’ in these—the ‘I’ remaining merely an unattached witness of these actions. IT  IS  THEN  THAT  THE  CONVICTION  GRADUALLY  GROWS  THAT  EVERYTHING  IS  BEING  ORDAINED  AND  CONTROLLED  BY  A  HIGHER  POWER. With this recognition, one submits and surrenders to this Higher Power. The ego, which has been  nurtured and strengthened from time immemorial, birth after birth, now submits itself, willingly, to be struck down by the Supreme Self  or devoured, lock, stock and barrel. THIS  IS  THE COMPLETE  SELF-SURRENDER  AND  THE  PERFECT   MANIFESTATION  OF  GRACE   AS  REVEALED  BY  THE  MAHAGURU BHAGWAN  SRI  RAMANA.

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
   Anil 



Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 16, 2013, 09:05:13 AM
Dear Anil,

In surrender, the devotee keeps his ego and finally he leaves the ego also to totally surrender to Sri Bhagavan.  Whereas in
Self Inquiry, the ego/mind is first jettisoned, and the mind becomes curled up in the Self.  Sri Bhagavan says that both are
like two sides of the same coin and both are equally difficult.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on October 16, 2013, 03:36:28 PM
Quote from Sri Subramaina Sir:
“In surrender, the devotee keeps his ego and finally he leaves the ego also to totally surrender to Sri Bhagavan. Whereas in
Self Inquiry, the ego/mind is first jettisoned, and the mind becomes curled up in the Self. Sri Bhagavan says that both are
like two sides of the same coin and both are equally difficult.”


Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Ji, yes, thanks very much, sir. Both are two sides of the same coin and both are equally difficult, or, I should say, equally easy, depending on the inclination and maturity of the devotees.

Dear sir, it is true that in the Enquiry ‘Who am I?’, the ego-mind is jettisoned first and the Pure Mind becomes curled up in the Self and IS One with the Self, or with That Which Is. Nevertheless, Sri Bhagwan has taught that in the Enquiry ‘Who am I?’, ‘I’ is the ego, for the question really means , what is the Source of the ego?
However, it is a different matter that the moment the ego tries to know itself, it begins to change its character; it begins to partake less and less of the insentience(jada) in which it is absorbed, and more and more of the Consciousness of the Self. Thus, if one perseveres for adequately long period, the mind becomes extremely pure on account of removal of its defects, practice becomes easier and even involuntary, and the purified mind will plunge into the Heart as soon as the Enquiry is commenced and the ego’s phenomenal existence is thus transcended.

Dear sir, I wish to elaborate here that although the ego is described as having three bodies, the gross, subtle and the causal, for the purpose of analytical exposition, the method of the Enquiry should never depend on the ego’s form. Sri Bhagwan has taught that if the method of the Enquiry is to depend on the ego’s form, it will never succeed. Why?  BECAUSE  THE   FORMS  THAT  THE  EGO  MAY  ASSUME  ARE  LEGION!   

Pranam,
  Anil   

Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on October 20, 2013, 10:20:42 AM
The visitor said, “I have surrendered my body and heart and mind to you, how can I improve myself?
Sri Bhagwan kept quiet, but when the visitor left He said, “Everyone says he has surrendered everything to Me and walks out, thinking that his business is over and that the entire burden is now on Me. I am not so easily deluded by mere words.”

Pranam,
  Anil

Dear Sri Subramanian Sir, from when is the Deepam Ceremony going to be celebrated  in Tiruvannamalai and on which Day will the Deepam be lit on the Peak of Sri Arunachala? I am certain that you must be knowing, and therefore I request you to kindly post the date. Thanks very much, sir. Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 20, 2013, 11:06:48 AM
Dear Anil,

Karthigai Festival starts on 8th November 2013, and it is a Friday.  The Mahadeepam will be lit on 17th November, evening
which is a Sunday


Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on October 20, 2013, 02:22:03 PM
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Ji. Yes. Thanks very much, sir. I wished to know the exact date of the Deepam Ceremony in Tiruvannamalai this year because I am planning my tour to South India including a visit to Sri Ramanasramam sometime in December.

Pranam,
  Anil
Title: Re: Self-surrender and its meaning as revealed by Maha Guru Bhagwan Sri Ramana
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on October 30, 2013, 01:42:31 PM
Dear Devotees,


True Surrender is Love of God for the sake of Love and for nothing else whatever, not even for the sake of liberation.
 

Sri Bhagwan has taught that the talk of love involves duality. Does it not –the person who loves and the Entity called God who is loved? Self is God. The individual is not separate from God. Nothing is apart from the Self and therefore there is nothing really apart from the  individual. Hence, truly, Love everywhere and in all circumstances means that one has Love towards one’s own Self. Truth of Love is of the Nature of the Self and unless and until we know that Love experientially, the strong entangled knot of life cannot be untied.  FOR  THE  EXPEREINCE  OF  SELF  IS  ONLY  LOVE. Then Love alone remains.  Such a One sees, hears, feels, tastes and smells only love everywhere and in all circumstances. Has not the great Sage Sri Kabir also sung that one who has read the two and half letters of ‘Prema’ (Love) alone is the Man of Wisdom?


Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil