The Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

Ramana Maharshi => The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi => Topic started by: Hari on October 15, 2011, 03:44:15 PM

Title: Question about Jnanis
Post by: Hari on October 15, 2011, 03:44:15 PM
Ramana says that the mind of the jnanis is dead. How then a jnani functions in the world. Eating, talking etc. are activities of the mind so thought waves are generated. How Ramana explains that? What you know about that?
Title: Re: Question about Jnanis
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 15, 2011, 04:47:49 PM

Dear ramana 1359,

This is the question that is asked right from Sri Ramana's times till today. Many many devotees have asked this question to
Sri Bhagavan during His times, and He has patiently answered them.  Guru Vachaka Kovai of Sri Muruganar has a verse explaining
this aspect:

Verse 1139: If it is asked, 'We actually see the Jnani performing actions. How can actions be performed in the absence of the sense
of doership? you should be convinced that because his inner attachment [ego] is dead, he has God himself residing in his Heart,
and performing those actions.

Day by Day, entry dated May, 5, 1946 reads as under:

And if it is held that a man cannot be considered a Jnani so long as he performs actions in the world, [and action is impossible
without the mind], then not only the great sages who carried on various kinds of work, after attaining Jnana must not be considered
Jnanis, but the gods also, and Iswara Himself, since He continues looking after the world. The fact is that any amount of action can be
performed, and performed quite well, by the Jnani without his identifying himself with it in any way, or ever imagining that he is the
doer. Some Power acts through his body and uses the body to get the work done.

Talks No, 103:

Bhagavan: Others notice the Jnani being active, e.g. eating, talking, moving etc., He is not himself aware of these activities, whereas
others are aware of his activities. They  pertain to the body and not to his real Self --  Swarupa. For himself, he is like the sleeping
passenger  -- or like a child interrupted from sound sleep and fed, being unaware of it. The child says the next day that he did not take milk at all, and that he went to sleep without it. Even when reminded he cannot be convinced.

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Question about Jnanis
Post by: Nagaraj on October 15, 2011, 06:56:33 PM
Dear Sri Ramana1359

That a Jnani functions in the world is a product of our mind :) not the Jnani's! It is we, who think, how come a jnani is able to function in the world without a mind. If you look subtly, it is our mind. There is no "other" other than you. There is no "Jnani" outside of you. Ramana is not outside of you.

Mind is inert, mind never worked or operates even now. There is no mind, and even is there is some mind, it is most definitely not ours Just take for instance our inhalation and exhalation? are we using our mind? Take for instance, while we are walking, are we using our mind to walk? Is the feeling of hunger the mind's? Where is the mind, the mind is in body, we say, whose is the body? can we say body is mine? Where is mind? Where are you, where am I?, Whence am I?

Since we have identification with the mind, we are seeing a jnani also as the same and hence we wonder, how come a jnani is able to function without a mind!

Mind of a Jnani never is, when we say Jnani's mind its like How can we say a "childless mother"?, when we say mind of a jnani its like saying "childless mother" which is ridiculous, if one did not have a child how she became a mother to its child?! Infact Mind never was or is. Mind is Maya. What is mind really? Infact it is wrong to refer a jnani as "Jnani" has Bhagavan as said there is really no "jnani" but only "jnanam"

All these questions arise because of our identification with a Mind phenomenon (identification with dream * ). Enquire who is asking this question, the answer will be "my mind" and then when we ask, "who's mind is this?" and the answer will be "My Mind" and then we have eventually ask, who is this "My? If it is my mind, then who am I?

The "I" is the root of all the questions and answers. Instead of trying to figure out the knowledge of all other question, figure out the father of all questions and answers, the "I". Bhagavan says,

"If we clear one doubt, another arises, and there will be no end of doubts. All doubts will cease only when the doubter and his source have been found. Seek for the source of the doubter, and you find he is really nonexistent"

Always stick to the source. Infact there is no use in knowing how a jnani is able to function with or without a mind! What matter it is to us, how a jnani function? What is Functioning really? Functioning itself is illusion? Who functions? what Functions really? What is the use if the answers is a "Yes" or even a "No" How much difference is that going to be for us? Our state is not going to change because of knowing this!

That which wants to know the answer is as good as the one asking questions in dream, it makes no use really in true waking! * Suppose you get Self Realisation in your dream, suppose, some great jnani blesses you in your dream and you ask some questions and the jnani also answers all the questions and in the end you attain Self Realisation, when you wake up, you realise it all as a dream. You see that nothing really has changed, You are exactly the same as you were.

Dreaming in sleep is for short duration, while in waking dream is for longer time. All happens only in dream. Just realise that all questions and answers are all happening in dream. The knowing really is of insignificance, for really there is no "Knower" (Jnani) says Bhagavan there is only "Knowledge" (Jnanam). Therefore "Knower" is illusion, "Knower" is mind, enquire who is the "knower" Who am I?

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Question about Jnanis
Post by: Hari on October 16, 2011, 09:56:59 PM
Yes. But who answers the question of devotees? If jnani "is not" jivatma anymore why he acts as such? How can he has no mind but to have brain activity (which can even be measured with medical devices)? How can body of the jnani exists without mind?
Title: Re: Question about Jnanis
Post by: Nagaraj on October 17, 2011, 10:46:48 AM
Dear ramana1359,

This question springs from the avidya that a "Jnani" is different from you. What you see is not different from yourself. There are no two things there (yourself and a jnani), it is all part of yourself only, like the curds in milk, like the ghee in milk, like the butter in milk! Because you see through your physical eye, you perceive difference, if you see with the inner eye, you realise that the physical eye is inert, there is some seer within our eyes. there is some seer who sees through our eyes, who hears through our ears, who feels through touch, who smells through nose. That seer within is common, that seer is only one!

Its is the interpretation of the mind that is the culprit, when you see a coconut tree, how did you know it as "cocunut tree", how did you know a "coconut", how did you know a "tree", unless you had previously heard it from somewhere, what is blue colour before you knew what a blue colour is, Who is father, before the mother shows the father to us? who is a mother before she tells us that she is "mamma"

So all that we seem know only seems. It opnly seems, not really is!

There is no "jnani" outside of you. Jnani is just within/without yourself! What you see is only your imagination, it is the creative process of your mind which makes the ideas of a "jnani" with a body, form, mind, and you see all the activities through your own mind only. Suppose you close your eyes, where are these forms, Jnani, activities. Ok, we can say, if I close my eyes, I can still see this as a 'vision' through my mind, its precisely just that, its just like a dream, it really never is! What vision you see when you close your eyes, you see the same when you open your eyes and too! There is no difference.

So long you see through just the mere physical eye, there is mind activity, it appears that a jnani also has a mind and activity. when your mind is merged within the Self, there is no mind, there is no jnani outside of you.

Just imagine now, a jnani is flying up in the air above you and lifting his hands and doing some action and you are seeing all this! continue the process for sometime....

Now Get back, become aware, where is this jnani, whom you just saw a moment back? when you became aware, you realise it was only a thought, thought-vision and when you became aware now, you abided as self. like this, the mind keeps goiing out like the bubbles in boiling water, it goes up, up, up and bursts. Bubble never really is. It appeared due to the Heat, which are nothing but Vasanas. When you become aware, we need not heat anymore. When you don't heat it, under the sway of Vasanas, the mind does not go outwards, it remains as Self!

That a Jnani has a body, is outside of you, is different from you, etc... is a product of your own mind only! Where was the jnani during deep sleep? where was the jnani's body during deep sleep? where were the activities during your deep sleep? What is body, how did you know what a "body" is unless you previously heard it that a "body" is made of skeleton, flesh, blood, muscles, tissues, nerves, and so on. keep asking yourself, how did you get to know these nerves, skeletons, muscles, etc... unless you heard it before. Get back to the source!

Mind does not exist, it only seems to be! That which is not can never be measured, therefore these modern scientific devices are limited to the mind itself.  The outgoing Self is Mind, and its Abidance is just it-Self.

How can something that does not exist be measured? Which is why the sages have called it as Maya.

Scientific studies and devices, etc... are all like studying about the snake perceived by mistake in the Snake Rope phenomenon, which really is not there. What is the use of studying the snake, when it really is just a rope. It waste of money, wast of energy, it avidya, ignorance! Instead, discern and recognise the rope which is the Self. Enquire the I The Jnani is self is the rope Perceiving Jnani as external is as good as the perception of Snake from a rope! 

The questions and answers are all part of the mind only. Really, there are no questions and answers at all. So long the mind asks questions, answers are also there, answers are part of the questions itself. its like two sides of the same coin. Answers are not different from questions. Hence the real answer is the silence of Dakshinamurty, of Bhagavan Ramanar - Silence.

The existence of questions and answers only indicates the outgoing mind. It indicates one under the sway of Vasanas.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Question about Jnanis
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 17, 2011, 02:57:02 PM

Dear Ramana 1359,

You are asking how can a Jnani live without a mind. When there is a Power inside, to do all the activities of a mind, who needs
a mind, which goes always outwards?  Secondly not only Jnanis, we are also living with out mind in our deep sleep. Who took
care of us during that mindless state of deep sleep?

Arunachala Siva.

Title: Re: Question about Jnanis
Post by: ramana_maharshi on October 17, 2011, 08:50:42 PM
Dear Ramana 1359,

Below is my personal opinion.

Jnani's are no different from us and have all the organs in the body like a normal human being like brain,mind,legs,ear etc etc

But the key catch is jnanis like ramana maharshi follow rigoursly self enquiry method in all the activities in their daily life.

They have all their emotions even after attaining self-realization like getting angry,sentiments,family attachments to some extent,feeling hungry,caring about other humans and animals,plants etc...

But Their vairagya is amazing to say the least and we just cannot compare with the dedication and devotion and vairagya shown by the jnanis.

Just imagine bhagavan living with a loin cloth and eating just for the sake of maintaining body in min quantities and having no question of favour to any food though tastes remain as it is even in the case of jnanis.

So there is no point of decoding those words of bhagavan regarding mind and rather utilise our time in following self enquiry when ever we can.

Please donot torture your body by following self enquiry and trying to remove the thought when u feel hungry.

We cannot survive afterall.

Bhagavad Gita also suggests the same

Ch6 Text16

There is no possibility of one's becoming a yogi, O Arjuna, if one eats too much, or eats too little, sleeps too much or does not sleep enough.

Imagine Bhagavan Ramana with a loin cloth and no footwear and walking in hot sun around arunachala on daily basis.

It is mind blowing unimaginable and will be foolish to compare bhagavan's vairagya with our sadhana.

All glories to Guru Ramana
Title: Re: Question about Jnanis
Post by: ramana_maharshi on October 17, 2011, 09:19:38 PM
Dear Ramana 1359,

Bhagavad Gita indeed accepts it is very difficult to control the mind hence constant sadhana as shown by bhagavan should be practiced.

I think what bhagavan meant by no mind is when mind is controlled it becomes peaceful and returns to the source then we can say "no mind".

But biggest problem as lord krishna admits is that it is very difficult to control the mind i.e to bring it back to the control of self hence constant practice is required.

When ever you win i.e control the mind and evil thoughts you are eligible to say you have "no mind".

Bg Ch6 Text 26

From whatever and wherever the mind wanders due to its flickering and unsteady nature, one must certainly withdraw it and bring it back under the control of the Self.

Bg Ch6 Text35

The Blessed Lord said: O mighty-armed son of Kunti, it is undoubtedly very difficult to curb the restless mind, but it is possible by constant practice and by detachment.

Title: Re: Question about Jnanis
Post by: Ritter on April 28, 2014, 11:11:11 PM
Maybe this is the answer for this question:

6.   "Is there no `I-am-the-body' idea for the Jnani [?]? If, for instance, Sri Bhagavan is bitten by an insect, is there no sensation?"
Bhagavan: "There is the sensation and there is also the `I-am-the-body' idea. The latter is common to both the Jnani [?] and the ajnani with this difference, that the ajnani
thinks `only the body is myself ', whereas the Jnani [?] knows `all this is the Self ', or `all this is Brahman; if there be pain, let it be. It is also part of the Self. The Self is perfect'. "Now with regards to the actions of the Jnanis, they are only so-called because they are ineffective. Generally the actions get embedded as samskaras (impressions) in the individual. That can be only so long as the mind is fertile, as is the case of the ajnani. With a Jnani [?] the mind is only surmised; he has already transcended the mind. Because of his apparent activity the mind has to be inferred in his case, and that mind is not fertile like that of an ajnani.
Hence it is said that the Jnani's mind is Brahman.
Brahman is certainly no other than the Jnani's mind. Vasanas cannot bear fruit in that soil. His mind is barren, free from the vasanas, etc. "However, since prarabdha is conceded in his case, vasanas also must be supposed to exist. But they are only vasanas for enjoyment, leaving no impressions to be the seeds for future karma."
Talk 383

Note: In this text we have a full view of the Jnani's state: in pains, in action, in the working out of an old, and the generation of a new, karma, etc. It all amounts to this: his perceptions of pain and pleasure and of the world are exactly like those of the ajnani, as we have discussed in Note 45 of the last chapter. He sees other bodies and his own exactly as others see them, but, unlike others, he knows the truth about them. A peasant who, for the first time goes to a cinema- show and sees fierce fire raging on the screen, starts screaming and tries to run out of the theatre, taking the fire to be real; whereas the others sit back in their chairs unconcerned. This is the exact difference between the Jnani and the ajnani in their perceptions. Both see the very same sights, yet their knowledge of them vastly differs.

Page 185
As for the actions of the Jnani [?] they are equally productive ? often even more so ? as those of the ajnani (the word `ineffective' in the text is likely to be misinterpreted as qualifying actions, whereas it qualifies the production of samskaras), but they are without vasanas, although they appear as if they were. They resemble Coleridge's wonderful pen-picture of "a painted ship on a painted ocean", though ship and ocean are real. The actual ship is there, the actual ocean is also there, but there is no movement in either on account of the curse. The same are the vasanas of the Jnani which leave no impressions on his mind. The driving force in an action which produces Karma is its motive, which is absent in the Jnani's; hence there is no creation of a new karma for him. The actor is there, the action is also there, but the driving force of the action is, in his case, automatic, being impersonal, vasana-less. The Srutis [?] compare it to the fried seed which can no longer sprout. That is why the action of the Jnani [?] is viewed as inaction. The Jnani [?] appears to act, and efficiently too, but he is not acting at all. This is the significance of inaction in action and action in inaction. The motiveless mind is Brahman Itself. This is one of the most revealing statements of Bhagavan.