The Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

Ramana Maharshi => The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi => Topic started by: srkudai on September 20, 2011, 03:42:45 PM

Title: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: srkudai on September 20, 2011, 03:42:45 PM
Friends,
        :) Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi's Essential Teaching was "Just Be".

And when a person said "Sir, I do not know how to just remain", thats when he went on to ask "So , who is unable to just remain?"... when the person looks within to the source of this thought "i cannot just be", the source already Just IS ... Awareness ... Ever Still, Simply Present.

If we simply leave everything where it is... Simply renounce everything mentally ...withdraw ... Total uparama ... Like a tortoise if we simply withdraw our preheld conditions on the world and its events ... Right now, here ... we remain Free.

the main problem is we do not renounce. we hold onto the world and create lot of mental turmoil ... and then we seek techniques to resolve the mind ... to reduce thoughts etc. Why does anyone need to reduce thoughts? coz there are lot of thoughts ... why? Coz of attachment to world. We need to strike it off there.

Just leave everything ... Everything where it is. Nowhere to go, nothing to do... just Remain .... Total Stillness! Just Be. What else ? Drop the hold and see !!
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 20, 2011, 04:16:32 PM
Dear Srkudai,

Its a catch 22 situation until we are able to.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 20, 2011, 04:29:03 PM
may be it will be a good idea to delve further in understanding various aspects of what exactly "renunciation" means.
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Subramanian.R on September 20, 2011, 04:49:41 PM


Dear srkudai, Nagaraj,

Once Paul Brunton asked Sri Bhagavan:  Should I then, leave all
my possessions?  Sri Bhagavan replied: 'The possessor too.'

The possessor is the main culprit. One can leave all his possessions.
But since still the possessor is there, craving for possessions will
soon commence. So one should leave the possessor, the ego too.

In Vivekachudamani, Sri Sankara says: It is not enough if you cut
the branches and stems and the trunk of the trees. If half-cut trunk
remains, then if one pours water, the trunk will start growing again
with leaves and branches.  Remove the root, the tubor root also.
The root is the ego.



Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 20, 2011, 05:58:12 PM
Dear Srkudai, Subramanian Sir

This having no expectation lasts for absolutely very little time. For instance, I have observed in the past, this very moment when we are discussing with fervor and intensity, there is absolutely "clarity" zero expectation and absolute peace and absolutely "still"

But in few hours, when the responsibilities call for, its quite different from the spirit of the verse just given below. To be in such constant recognition all the time is ..... (have no words to say) to the extent that Bhagavan has said that he was well aware about his snoring when he slept. Such level of abidance is... (am lost for words)

What we can really do is start with baby steps and just practice, practice and practice with extreme sincerity and earnestness.

The goal is continues abidance, which in reality is quite far. Bhagavan says in Upadesa Saram -

आज्यधारया स्रोतसा समम् ।
सरलचिन्तनम् विरलतः परं ॥ (7)

Like an unbroken flow of oil or a stream of water,
continuous meditation is better than that which is interrupted.

and definitely, to remain without any expectations lasts as long as our stomach starts crying for food very soon when it gets hungry.

Quote
In 1931, on a festive occasion after a sumptuous meal, one devotee quoted a poem of Avvayar the Tamil saint- poetess, a complaint about the stomach, "You will not go without food even for one day, nor will you take enough for two days at a time. You have no idea of the trouble I have on your account. Oh wretched stomach! It is impossible to get on with you."

Bhagavan immediately wrote a parody thereon giving the stomach's complaint against the ego:

"You will not give even an hour's rest to me; you ego!

Day after day, every hour, you keep on eating! You have no idea how I suffer. Oh trouble-making ego! It is impossible to get on with you!"

There have been none like Bhagavan who have been in such 'state' of nirvikalpa samadhi right from the age of 16 onwards. Many other great jnanis too were of great awe about Bhagavan's state.

How we develop the intensity further after making small baby steps depends on Vairagyam.

Most of us sadhakas get Virakti. We all have Virakti, But  Not enough Vairagyam as yet. If one is blessed with true Vairagyam then it would not be difficult. We still enjoy those Raga Dwesha Moha subtly if we watch within ourselves.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: amiatall on September 21, 2011, 12:29:05 AM
So, it all boils down to 'reactions'. With reaction ego arises. No reaction makes it disappear.
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 21, 2011, 11:00:00 AM
Dear Srkudai, Amiatal,

Due to discernment, we are able to recognise the reasons as in, we are able to see very clearly that we are all very much conditioned by our vasanas and wrong notions, however this does not end in just 'knowing' it. I mean to say that one is able to recognise this reality and one is able to become aware of these realities and recognition, but we are unable to put to practice this recognition continuesly, the knoweldge to undoing or unlearning is not continues and it is constanty intrerupted by various things we have built up over time or say over many births.

We have made our lives revolve around money, for it is only money that seems to give happiness, the world revolves around money. The talk of the day is globalization, Global Economy and GDP, Conversion rates, and what not? It is only through money we are able to give security to our loved ones, buy them their desired things, we are very much caught up in this moha

When we realise/recognise/discern that we have been carrying unnecessary liggage over our shoulders and when we want to drop the weight of luggage, then society and loved does not allow you to lessen your burden (just out of avidya) Then we begin to just carry over the heavy luggage just for the sake of our loves ones and due to the pressure of the societal norms. We don't want to drop our luggage for it contains precious items through which we are able to make our loved ones happy, secure, etc... :) we dont want them to feel sad, let down!

And in reality it dawns that our recognition strongly is dependent on the recognition and discernment of our loved ones too! Which is the biggest problem! We are demanding the impossible!

As in we are desperate that our loved ones are also able to recognise this truth, what we seem to see and we wait, wait ad wait patiently and carry the unnecessary luggage on our shoulders for ages, for we seem to want our most loved ones to also realise this truth. Well its not wrong to want our loves ones also to recognise this truth but, we have to recognise that their recognition is absolutely not dependent on us. Due to Moha, we don't want our loved ones feel insecure and we keep working towards that more than what is basically necessary instead of constantly LIVING the Recognition!

Recognition, Truth Dawning happens from within oneself. recgnising that Knowledge cannot be transferred but only shown and abiding in our own recognition constantly is the way.

We are holding on to our loved ones like "fevicol" :) (yeh fevicol ka mazboot jod hai, tutega nahi)

It goes down to the level that, we know that giving Sugar to a person with diabities is bad, but due to too much love we make exemption and feed them with lots of sweets feeling so sorry for them. Like how too much chocolates is bad for children, we buy lots of chocolates for children just because of Moha, similarly, we are holding on to our loved ones so much with moha.

We have to make a Leap in our Sadhana. Let go of everything and remain.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 21, 2011, 11:27:22 AM
There is this famous mantra -

श्री राम राम रामेति रमे रामे मनोरमे । सहस्रनाम तत्तुल्यं रामनाम वराननॆ ।

"Chanting the name of 'Sri Rama' is equal to reciting the entire thousand names of Lord Vishnu"

Discernments are as follows -

We ourselves are still to make the journey after having received the address of recognition/discernment by the grace of Guru. We are still caught up in trying to make our loved ones also accompany us so that afterwards we can make the journey along with our loves ones :)!
Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 21, 2011, 01:12:15 PM
Dear Srkudai,

i am in agreement with you.

till we are able to completely surrender our mind, it only remains as "knowledge"

from temporary surrendering, we have to make it constant practice, living surrendered! That is "Tapas", "Tyaaga"

Constant abidance. "Mana Adakkam"

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Subramanian.R on September 21, 2011, 01:24:54 PM


Dear Nagaraj,

Sri Bhagavan describes this process beautifully in Verse 5 of Ashtakam:

Like the string that holds together gems, in a necklace, You it is that
penetrate and bind all beings and the various religions. If like a gem,
that is cut and polished, the separate mind [jiva] is whetted on the grind-
stone of the pure universal Mind, it will acquire the light of your Grace and
shine like a ruby, whose brightness is not flawed by any other object.
When once the light of the Sun has fallen on a sensitive plate, will the
plate register another picture? Apart from you, O Aruna Hill, bright,
auspicious, does any other thing exist?



Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 21, 2011, 02:12:03 PM
Dear Subramanian Sir,

Its apt quotation - the fifth verse from the Ashtakam. We are able to intellectually get the grasp of the essence, however, in reality, certain things in our life path, holds us back from abiding in this essence.

What stops us from living this recognition? well definitely, I am aware of the reason, its the mind, the ego, the desires, the vasanas and the likes. But I have observed that just knowing these is not enough.

the point is, taking example from Advaita Bodha Deepika illustration which says, "the beggar does not verily become a King just by knowing the truth that he is the King"

Krishna says - "Of all the endless thousands of men, only one here and there seeks enlightenment, and among those few there are even fewer who know me as I really am"

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 21, 2011, 02:47:24 PM
while practicing Self Enquiry, if some unnecessary thought crops up, then we question ourselves "to whom is this thought coming to" and by this we are able to go beyond these thoughts.

In more baser practical life. in midst of our work etc... when we sit to enquire, the work is definitely affected. as our attention in focussed on the Self. Priority definitely shifts to the Self and works takes back seat.

A definite sense of disinterest results and as we are responsible to the work and to others, we cannot afford to allow disinterestedness to take seat.

Why we need to work? what other responsibility we have other than Self Enquiry? Truly, our need for money is very little, just for food and shelter alone and it serves no other purpose.

This too, was given up by many direct devotees, Muruganar, Ganapati Muni, TKS,

I wish to discuss further on these lines.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Subramanian.R on September 21, 2011, 02:54:56 PM


Dear Nagaraj,

Yes. Giving up the work and totally spending time in self inquiry
or self surrender is only destined for a few.  Most of the devotees
of Sri Bhagavan, like GVS, Narayana Iyer and others were working
and having darshan of Sri Bhagavan once a week or so. Sri Bhagavan
also did not recommend to anyone to give up work. If you are destined
to work, the work will not leave you....He would say.  Hence one has
to pursue inquiry and also attend to work simulataneously.  No doubt,
it is a difficult balancing act. But Sri Bhagavan has said that it is possible.



Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 21, 2011, 03:27:45 PM
Perhaps we also need to ask oursleves why are we working? what for are we working really!

Sometimes, we may be working just because we don't know how to pass time too :)

One of the least discussed topics are this -

we need to understand these properly.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 21, 2011, 03:45:06 PM
Dear Srkudai,

thanks for bringing in these concepts from Bhagavand Gita. Yes, Pravritti Marga and Nirvritti Marga are there, and the nature of person decides which marga one takes course.

In our times, we are in a situation where we are following all margas, sometimes Karma Marga, sometimes Jnana Marga, some times Bhakti Marga and sometimes even Raja yoga as well.

But yes, Bhagavan's method is a conglomeration of all the above margas put together. Its like we are jack of all but master of none! :(  :D

What truly differentiates the one whom Krishna says one in million really reaches me and knows me as I am

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 21, 2011, 04:16:23 PM
Dear Srkudai,

yes, apparently, in the original Mahabharatha, the Bhagavad Gita does not appear in 18 chapters as we see today in all publications, and each of these chapters are classified as different yogas, Karma yoga namah, Bhakti Yoga namah, etc... In the original it is just continues.

It is said that it was Sri Shridhara Swamigal who classified the Gita into 18 chapters and attributed each chapter to each Yoga.

Originally, Gita was a direct responses givenby Krishna to Arjuna for the questions asked by Arjuna then and there.

It was simply guiding Arjuna from Asatoma to Sadgama (Darkness to Light)

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 21, 2011, 04:34:12 PM
Dear Srkudai,

Lets go a little to the fundamentals. What is Abidance. What is Nishta.

According to answers.com

Abidance means -
The act or condition of abiding; continuance.
Adherence; compliance: abidance by parliamentary procedure.

And Nishta is same.

Next to understand is, when we say, Abidance, what is it that makes the abidance? what makes the effort to abide? what is it that aspired to abide?

Questions arise -

Is it our mind/thoughts?
What is 'that' that needs to abide?

What abides?

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 21, 2011, 04:56:36 PM
Dear Srkudai,

Here is where Bhagavan's teachings comes in to light. He says "Atma Vyavahaaram"

the "I"being in abidance, or being seated in the awareness. what makes us "I" unable to be seated in that nishta or what are the reasons why it is always only temporary? it is because of Vyavahaara

I am wondering how is Vyavahaaram possible being seated in Nishta!

You perfectly quoted "For a thought... whats behind ? Awareness"

For or From awareness, thought is not there, Thought is illusion (or thought itself is awareness), Mind(or mind itself is awareness) is not there. Then how can Vyavahaara be possible? for Vyavahaara is of the mind and not awareness, Vvavahaara itself is illusion!

How is Atma Vyavahaara possible? when the latter is unreal and only former is the Truth!

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 21, 2011, 05:14:19 PM
Dear Srkudai,

yes, you are correct, but the key word is "operate in small activities here and there"

what we can do hereafter is that we can slowly reduce all our official responsibilities, bring it down to basic minimal levels of requirement and not desire any more advancements and make new karmas and when time is crisp, we can totally devote all our time to Bhagavan and Self. Untill then we have to remain patiently and better our practice in abidance and achieving Atma Nishta.

attend to our responsibilities till nature itself relieves us from those responsibilities!

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 21, 2011, 05:29:07 PM
Dear srkudai,

yes, absolutely with you!

कर्मण्ये वाधिकारस्ते म फलेषु कदाचना
कर्मफलेह्तुर भुरमा ते संगोस्त्वकर्मानी॥


You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action। Never consider yourself the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty.

What more can we do? that is it!

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 10:24:47 AM
Dear srkudai,

it subtly also conveys that we have a choice over our Karmas. What we do - we have choice on this But not on the outcome!

Personally, in my case, I observed that most karmas that I am doing, are really not at all necessary but just doing it as a course of past conditioning or due to making past unwise choices! Now that discernment and recognition seems to sprout showing light on the Karmas.

Its quite clear enough in this that we have choice over what we do and we CAN CHOSE WISELY what minimal we can do! Its also 100% sure that the very life is only for the purpose of realising oneself and in perfect abidance. Instead of this, out of avidya, we have got onto ourselves various Karmas in the past, whose fruits, we are being fed today! So we should be careful and wise not to make any more newer karmas. Just finish off accepting the fruits of our past karmas and remain perfectly still. Simply being.

Karma is hindrance for abidance.

When we have choice to chose what we can do, we also have the wise choice to NOT DO ANYTHING too  and just be :)

your thoughts?

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 10:56:00 AM
yes very true, infact, doership of karmas only indicates expectation of a particular result.

But not all karmas an be classified as the above. I mean, certain karmas which we have unwisely chosen in the past, with some desire to its fruits, are no longer relevant after this discernment. For example, say Jai had wanted to become a great businessman and very famous and he also had good mind and also thought that when he earns lots of money, he would do a lot of charity, he would help poor people and he would do lots of Sevas for people and he would do lot of Pujas for God etc...

you know, when the light over Karma daws on Jai, he realises that all these are unnecessary, what is more important than all the above is complete abidance in Self and that itself is the greatest service.

"sukha tyagi , krishna bogi, nrpa janaka raghavau ..." beautiful quotation, also it is said that Krishna was a Brahmachari even though he had thousands of wives!

The magnitude of Karmas what Krishna did is unfathomable and yet he remained a Sthithah Prajna. Where as Ramanar did very very meagre karmas. Its just choice or we can say their respective prarabdha karma!

Krishna could have chosen to remain like Ramanar and Ramanar could have chosen to be like Krishna!

For me to look at Krishna is absolutely unfathomable, to live like Krishna is impossible, only in 4 yugas only one Krishna was there, Krishna way is not even graspable, I mean to live like krishna is verily impossible atleast in my case.

Where as Ramanar, also made lot of choices, he chose not to allow devotees to prostrate, if he willed he could have made a great Peetham like a Shankara Matam for posterity and also he chose not to have a sishya parampara.

we have the right to make some wise choices, i felt.

Its impossible to be like Krishna. again this is different for each person based on their nature.

Salutations to Bhagavan

Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 11:25:21 AM
Dear srkudai,

I agree with you. you are correct, I guess most of us face this problem, if we are able to discern to remain in abidance as we do our work then there would be no difficulty. yes we need to overcome the pull of our vasanas then and there with our conscious effort - is the way!

just going with the flow of the river of life as it goes instead of force changing the direction of the river of life!
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 11:30:57 AM
Its like Action in Stillness

its like violating the law of magnets - "like poles repel and unlike poles attract"

In this case of Atma Nishta it is "like poles attract"

fore really thereis only one, there is neither like pole or unlike pole but still it remains like Mirage.

udai, you always mention that after discernment, the mirage will remain, but it will not affect you. This is the theory of Visishtadwaita of Ramanuja. Where as in advaita, that mirage does not exist at all. as in, the seer of mirage and seen (mirage) is one and the same!

Intellectually one can only reach to Ramanujars theory and what Shankara and Ramanar saw is beyond.
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 12:27:23 PM
Dear srkudai,

while i have little difference with your in this understanding (we have discussed this even before), like Bhagavan says, all the 3 - advaitins, visishtadwaitins and dwaitins - all of them agree with the realisation of oneself as Atma as he says, first its important to realise oneself and thereafter we can discern whether it is advaita, visishtadwaita or dwaita. I admit I started it in my previous post, but lets leave it for it is not of relevance as the more immediate concern is constant abidance as the Self. How can we strive to achieve stillness in action without our minds being perturbed!

salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Subramanian.R on September 22, 2011, 01:56:23 PM


Dear srkudai, Nagaraj,

Here is a conversation from Day by Day with Bhagavan:

Bhagavan: So long as you have not renounced the belief 'I am the doer',
keep in you mind the correct perspective that your responsibilities are
your alone.

Question: If I am not the body, am I responsible for he consequences
of my good and bad actions?

Bhagavan: If you are not the body and do not have the idea 'I am the doer'
the consequence of your good or bad actions will not affect you. Why do
you say about the actions the body performs, "I do this or "I did that"?
As long as you identify yourself with the body, like that you are affected by
the consequences of the actions, and you have merit and demerit.

Question: Then I am not responsible for the consequences of good or
bad actions?

Bhagavan: If you are not, why do you bother about the question?

Question: Then does that mean if one has not the sense of 'I do this'
or 'I am the doer', one need not do any thing at all?

Bhagavan: The question of doing only arises if you are the body.

An ignorant person thinks, through the delusion I am the body, that an
individual 'I' exists separate from God, the complete and utter fulness.
So long as he believes himself to be an individual, it has to be accepted
that he will alternately perform good and bad actions through the ego
feeling, 'I am the doer' and will necessarily receive and experience their
results in the form of joy and misery.

True renunciation is the renunciation of the ego.



Arunachala Siva.       
     
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 02:29:27 PM
Dear srkudai,

What i conveyed is this conversation with Bhagavan given below -

Quote
in Talks 282,

D.: If the advaita is final, why did Madhvacharya teach dvaita?
M.: Is your Self dvaita or advaita? All systems agree on Self surrender. Attain it first, then there will be time to judge whose view is right or otherwise.

Well, its of absolutely no use to discuss if it is Advaita or Dvaita or Visishtadvaita for all of them agree that everybody has to attain Atma-Jnanam and they all agree that we are not the body but the Atma. So Bhagavan clearly states that instead of delving into whether it is dvaita or advaita or visishtadvaita, first we have to attain atma Jnanam.

The debate whether the Atma-Jnanam is Advaita or Visishtadvaita or Dvaita can be looked into after Atma-Jnanam. Therefore it is our immediate concern that we focus completely in realising this Atma and abide as the Atma which we truly are. It does not matter if it is advaita or dvaita or visishtadvaita. I tried to convey this aspect.

Subramanian Sir,

This reply by Bhagavan conveys everything in a nutshell -

Quote
Bhagavan: The question of doing only arises if you are the body.

I feel we need to delve more in to this statement by Bhagavan and how we can live this in our practical daily life without the identofication with body, intellectually I understand, we all understand what Bhagavan says but when it comes to crux of the situation, we get carried away and we lose this recognition, no matter how much we try. This discernment is not complete yet for, if we get the absolute discernment, then we can never fall from our Tapas.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Subramanian.R on September 22, 2011, 02:51:53 PM


Dear Nagaraj and srkudai,

Sri Bhagavan said that all the three schools [Advaita, Visishtadvaita
and Dvaita] speak of surrender. He told the devotee: First surrender
to the godhead and see if there are really three such schools!  Once
you surrender completely, the ego is submitted to godhead and there
is no one to discuss about the three schools.

Again about the "four  paths" [i.e Jnana, Bhakti, Yoga and Karma]
He said :
 Absorption in the Heart of Being,
 Whence we sprang,
 Is the path of action, of devotion,
 Of union and of Knowledge.

[Upadesa Saram, Verse 10.] 



Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: amiatall on September 22, 2011, 03:16:23 PM
I believe what srkudai tries to point out is that as long as one believes in body as himself so long such discussions will appear again and again as 'working in practical life', 'quelling vasanas' etc. To my mind there is no such thing as intellectual understanding. Either understanding is there or not there. There is no in between. If it appears so that there is 'intellectual' understanding but at the same time a conflict arises because the action is not in alignment with that understanding, then there is no understanding, only thinking that one understands. These are two different things. For if there would be an understanding then what 'body' does would be of no concern, for there is no body and no doer.
Then question arises how can this understanding arise? We all have read it is written "you are not a doer" and it is a fact. Where is the problem? The believe is the problem. It means that 'I' have seen myself as the doer ant cannot accept this fact, for if it has been seen clearly that there is no such thing as 'I'-the doer, what remains is That which always is, without any concern, right at this second. In other words this 'I' that presents to have problems have not been seen through or not have been investigated properly.
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 03:34:47 PM
Dear srkudai, amiatal,

The grace of Light can be felt only in darkness. Arjuna was given the Gitopadesa during a battle, in the same lines, we are in a battle field of our very own, words such as intellctual understanding etc... are only used for mediums for communication.

I am completely in agreement that either one knows it or does not know it. We are all here only because, we are still not reached that distinction yet and hence we are seeking light from the grace of Bhagavan.

Whether we term it as practical or otherwise, we are facing situations of contradiction in most moments of our life and its only due to lack of proper discernment that we are unable to stand straight for we are in midst of utter confusion as udai pointed out, in our daily life, we are in times whether we have to follow rules or not, whether to pay bribe or not and many many more such contradiction.

What i am trying to investigate is that inspite of 'knowing' that we should drop all expectations, we are unable to carry out that manner (hard truth) which is the fact and this is simply because contradiction still exists and we have been tying to surrender innumerable no. of times are still failed at it! It all goes to show that we are missing something very fundamental, very basic, which we are unable to discern! It raises certain questions whether it is even possible to act without having expectation, to act without having the desire for the fruits, is it even possible! Hence a need arises to question our own understanding as well!

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 03:39:45 PM
Dear srkudai,

I am in deed trying to investigate the reasons for such dichotomy you have mentioned.

yes, there is  contradiction! It raises certain questions whether it is even possible to act without having expectation, to act without having the desire for the fruits, is it even possible! Hence a need arises to question our own understanding as well!

Its not that we are not serious, truly it is because we still have not attained that discernment! Basically WE DON'T KNOW   ;)

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: amiatall on September 22, 2011, 03:44:35 PM
Dear srkudai,

If you are not a body, there is no concern whether there is a fan and A/C or no fan and A/C. If you are not a body there is no concern whether there is good food or bad food.
See my point? I am not the body, but neither I AM the doer, nor i am the reaction based entity.  I should not tell myself what should I do, because we already have understood - NO BODY. It is the same trap: i am not the body therefore i should do this instead of this. who is this doer?

Dear Nagaraj,

Yes. ultimately this is what one should investigate, this "something missing" detail  ;)
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 03:48:34 PM
Dear srkudai, amiatal

its much to do with not knowing the Truth yet and actually less to do with seiousness. If one truly knew the reality, then seriousness is automatic. when a human body is dead, we begin to call the human as "It/body"and no more by his name! it drops automatically, seriousness is simultaneous

Light of discernment itself is Seriousness as result. as In when the fruit is ripe, it falls down, similarly, expectations fall when truly complete discernment is attained. Which as a mater of fact - we don't know
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: amiatall on September 22, 2011, 04:03:32 PM
Dear srkudai,

I surely don't know why Bhagavan did that. Only He knows.
Again, I can only undo vasana if I believe in it, isn't it? If I don't believe in it, vasana does not arise.
If i understand you correctly, if you clean yourself out of so called vasanas, then you sit motionless, emotionless, like a rock. But this is not a case.
Emotion arises, body acts, but where you stand in all this scheme? This is the funny part. We are so concerned about dream-world stuff, we forget the essence.
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 04:10:41 PM
dear Srkudai,

you say -

how can a non existing ego get to know?

and again in the end you say that


It is again the mind/ego that gets to know! :)

you are saying again that the mind or the ego itself has to undo its notion and just remain.

Its one and the same! On a lighter side, its the ego that is asking - "If I am not there, where am I? " :D

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 04:15:35 PM
Quote
When someone brought a fan, Bhagavan asked them to take it back. why do you think Bhagavan did that ?

Bhagavan said that because, he was being given special attention in a hot sunny day while many devotees who were sitting down were all sweating and He did not encourage his attendants to give him special attention by bringing him a fan just for him alone! Such was his Samatva Bhava.
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 04:18:54 PM
"Samatvam" is Self itself
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 04:27:17 PM
Dear srkudai,

Quote
So when I say mind is not there ... its not a statement be said ... its a pointer for the mind to resolve itself into Self.... with no one to say. This pointer in mind, purifies the mind and makes it Suddha manas. when mind is suddha, it is automatically resolved in Self!


well again, don't you also see that its again the mind giving pointer to itself? pointer to itself to resolve itself? why should it be necessary? when mind is really non existent? why purify something that does not exist? If only Self exists, why then should ego exists?


I agree with you and and at the same time, what I have observed is that this pointer is not enough for our mind, ego still persists, in the guise of purifying itself.


Why even purify, why cant we discard it as it is with all the dirt of rajas and tamas and satwa? why do we need to make it shuddha before discarding it?


Dropping expectation is dropping mind itself, no matter if its satwa, rajas or tamas.


The bigger point is that even after this pointer, the mind does not go away, it stays, continues...


Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 04:30:53 PM
:) Self does not have attributes. neither samatvam nor the opposite.
Self is beyond both. Both sama-dristi and partiality [whats the sanskrit word for it?] , are there as properties of mind in the presence of Self.

dear srkudai,

if ego/mind itself does not exist, how can it own anything?

Samatvam is derived from Sama + Tvam which means - Same are you, you are same or you are yourself which again only conveys the essence of Maha Tatvas such as Tat Tvam Asi

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Subramanian.R on September 22, 2011, 04:34:46 PM


Dear Nagaraj,

"samabhavam" is the attitude of pure mind. This pure mind or suddha
manas easily quells itself in the Self. Of course, Muruganar says
Suddha Manas itself is the Self.



Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 04:42:16 PM
Dear srkudai,

no doubt, these pointer do take us further. nothing to debate this thought! :)

you see my point was that this discussion here at the moment will seem to make us more clearer, may seem to give us clarity. But on the topic of "Lack of renunciation" or "Dropping expectations" in the battle field, we are unable to over come the dichotomies.

Dear Srubramanian Sir,

another thought occurred! As I read Suddha Manas, I interpreted it  as Erase the manas/ mind and what remains is just the Self, on the lines of a camphor burning out itself! :)

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Subramanian.R on September 22, 2011, 04:43:20 PM


Dear Nagaraj, srkudai,

Mind should purify the mind. Good thoughts should drive away the
bad thoughts and ultimately good thoughts also should be dispensed
with. This is explained by Sri Bhagavan in Verse 5 of Ashtakam.  As
Sri Ramakrishna says, one thorn should be taken and it should be
used to remove the other thorn sticking on the sole, and then both
the thorns are thrown away.



Arunachala Siva.
 
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 04:48:57 PM
Dear Subramanian Sir,

Yes you have mentioned the best example - "one thorn should be taken and it should be used to remove the other thorn"

Burning out of camphor and yet remain!

Dear srkudai,

:) i to have read/re read/re read these chapters from ABD :)

Expectations do not drop by our effort! when the discernment happens, it drops of its own accord, just like a ripe fruit falling off on its own accord!

as mentioned earlier, when a human being dies, immediately we begin to refer the person as "It" or "Body" only no matter how close the person has been! Its automatic.

I believe that dropping expectations is not achieved by our efforts ALONE.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Subramanian.R on September 22, 2011, 04:53:33 PM


Dear Nagaraj,

Yes. Mere efforts would not do. One should also seek the Grace of
Guru. Grace of Guru is the equally essential ingredient. Sri Bhagavan
describes this in Atma Vidya Kirtana.

Saint Tayumanavar says: I tried to reach you with my knowledge. I
could see only the darkness. Then with a lamp called your Grace,
I seached to reach you.  I only saw you and merged with you!



Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 04:53:51 PM
This is the Crux of the situation Udai what you said -

unless we decide, they wont go,

its like jumping off a cliff and leaving completely to the LORD? Are we ready yet to make that jump of Faith?

in that Crux of the situation, just knowing that we have to decide is not enough is what I have observed,

When there is absolute discernment, then we jump on the go!

Do we have that Discernment/Conviction yet?
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 05:00:01 PM
Vexing up happens on proper discernment. it can't be forced, we have to experience the futility and then the fruit drops all by itself.

We Know, but still we Know Not yet!

:)
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 05:02:51 PM
we are aware that if we drop expectations then we have no problems. But still we are unable to drop so
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Subramanian.R on September 22, 2011, 05:11:17 PM


Those of perfect and mature wisdom will declare: "Reality, the consummation
of Jnana that shines in the perfectly pure state of mauna, the hard to
attain Vedantic experience, will, through the GURU'S GRACE, spontaneously
flare up and shine as "I-I" within the Heart.

Peace of mind, shanti, which is desired by everyone, is not attained by
anyone, anywhere, through any means, except through the grace of the
Guru. Therefore, those who want peace should continuously inquire and
seek alone that Grace in the Heart, with their whole attention.

Meditating in the way that one ought to meditate on the sweet and
ineffable grace of the Supreme Guru, and remaining still without
getting caught in illusion, the unreal and deceptive panorama that
appears in front of us -- this alone is bliss.

If by divine grace, which is the very nature of God, the mind is cleared
of the confusion, that is objective consciousness, the beauty of the
world will not be a mental hallucination, an imaginary appearance,
but ultimate Reality itself.

[Muruganar]



Arunachala Siva.           
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: amiatall on September 22, 2011, 05:11:52 PM
Dear srkudai,

Thank you, was waiting for this some years now.
Who asks question then? If you answer that, you will know. But you will know of yourself.
We can take ourselves out of the context of this nice discussion that were going on and go even further: please show me mind.
You separate mind, body, Self as different entities, why? Because you believe so, or have read somewhere. But what is your actual experience? What shapes that experience? Knowledge? Where does that knowledge come from? Scriptures? What about you? What if you were always the Self? What if your perception creates the world and not the world creates your perception, then where does all this knowledge stand in? It is useless.
This are the questions that arose to me at some time, it made me go very deep, and made me realize many things. Especially that I am changeless, deathless, birthless, witness of the witness. Even consciousness comes and goes to me. And these words, are only a joke, which cannot even start to describe our nature, what we are. This is the game we all tend to play, and what is the most funniest thing is that We believe in all these things and separate things into entities and then play without actually wanting to go deep deep inside, somehow giving power to our own perception. I will repeat myself NO KNOWLEDGE, NO THOUGHT, NO TEACHER, NO CHANT, NO PRACTICES WILL EVER EVER make you realize your SELF.
Nagaraj, you have reflected yourself honestly and truthfully hiding behind word "we" (somehow people have tendency to not speak for themselves), that you come to this forum because yet something is not understood, but is it? Why do you always search for reason? YOU COME HERE AND THATS IT. IT JUST HAPPENS. NO REASON. DROP ALL REASONS. THIS WORLD IS CAUSELESS AND FASTER YOU UNDERSTAND AND LET GO OF IT, THE FASTER YOU WILL COME TO REALIZE YOUR NATURE.

DEEP is DEEP. Still is Still.

Look at the "Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough" thread IT HAS 101 PAGES. ISN'T IT FUNNY? IS IT REALLY ENOUGH???

I pay homage to the King of Kings, Guru of Gods and gurus, who showed me the way, in the upper corner of this website. Bhagavan didn't want you to lean on him, but to stand as your Self. This is the essence. Everything else is meaningless. Do not add anything unto yourself, but remove. And you know what means EVERY-THING? Hope so. Wake up, right now.
Wish you Grace on this journey which is fathomless. IT IS NOT FIXED.

p.s. to add salt: Both Krishnamurtys were realized, Osho was realized, Maharaj was realized, and many others that are despised here. Yet, how can you see that with preconceived ideas? even if those ideas are from so called noble scriptures... BURN THEM. HOLD UNTO NOTHING. NOT EVEN UNTO YOUR MANTRA SUBRAMANIAN SIR. YOU ARE CLOSE. JUST DROP EVERYTHING.

bye.
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 05:13:38 PM
already we are vexed up with so many things :D God knows still what we need to get vexed up with  ;)

the thing is that getting vexed up also has its set of repercussions. We have to see our loved ones worry about us... and all those emotional dynamics and also get vexed up even with that as well in the end, it could lead one to great Depression as well if one is really not equipped with proper discernment!

There are other ways too.

Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 05:17:34 PM
Dear amiatal,

I appreciate your very careful observations of my addressing as "We" Yes you are absolutely correct! I use that term consciously, because, in the end, what ever you say, and when I read it, it is "I" who interpret what you say and so your thoughts are mine only!

You would have also observed when I was a member here previously, I used to address everybody as "Dear I" just because I am only talking to myself alone" for there is no one else except my mind, there is only "my mind" and no "another mind" at All times I am only in conversations with myself alone!

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
Post by: Nagaraj on September 22, 2011, 06:26:29 PM
Dear srkudai,

yes that is the process... of crossing the "samsara"

It is said that Dakshninamurty resides behind the Manasa sarovara in the Himalayas

If we look deeply, He resides behind Manasa Sarovara - i.e. behind the lake of the mind!

:)