The Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

Ramana Maharshi => The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi => Topic started by: ramana_maharshi on June 30, 2010, 02:22:16 PM

Title: Ramana Maharshi Says Manonasha Is Not Absolute Destruction of mind
Post by: ramana_maharshi on June 30, 2010, 02:22:16 PM
D: That means the manonasha or the ahamkara nasha. The destruction of the mind or of the ego you speak of is then not an absolute destruction.

M: Yes. The mind gets clear of impurities and become pure enough to reflect the truth, the real Self.This is impossible when the ego is active and assertive.

Source: Book Extracts (Sat-Darshana-Bashya and Talks with Maharshi)
Title: Re: Ramana Maharshi Says Manonasha Is Not Absolute Destruction of mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 01, 2010, 10:24:26 AM

Dear prasanth,

This aspect of mano nasa or ahankara nasa has been discussed
at various points of time, in the Forum.  Once the Adminsitrator,
Graham Boyd also intervened and said that it means only ego
destruction and not mind destruction, as many would construe.
He quoted from Crumbs from the Table - by Sri Ramananda Swarnagiri.

I shall give some verses from Guru Vachaka Kovai:-

Verse 383:  The impure mind that is frightened and perplexed,
as if it has been intoxicated by drinking alcohol, is alone the Jivatma [individual self], that is mentally confused and confounded, believing that it is really bound by the bond of karma.  If the mind without desiring and revelling in sense objects perceived through suttarivu [objective consciousness], abides in the Self state without slipping from it, then that extremely pure mind alone will be
Paramatma [Supreme Self] that shines, in a clarified state, as the attribute free consciousness.

Verse 384:  The mind should discontinue its habit of perpetually moving outwards in an unlimited way, pointlessly enquiring 'Who are you?' and 'Who is he?'.  It should turn within, holding itself as the object of attention and without interruption zealously
enquire 'Who am I?'.  This alone will confer the ultimate benefit.

Verse 459:  Through the destruction of the doltish ego, the triputis that are based on it fade away, and end, along with sakala [the waking and dream states].  This pure [Suddha] state of daylight that then shines forever is Sivaratri [the night of Siva].

Verse 265:  The pure state [suddha nilai] exists and shines as unceasing pure being in the Heart [ULLam] after the other thoughts that rise from oneself [vikshepa] and Self forgetfulness [avarana] that is the basis of their rising are fully destroyed.

Verse 842:  When you are separated from the Self-state, the thought that associates with you as 'my mind' and 'your mind' is itself the binding entanglement.  You should know that the Pure Mind is only one, existing ever as the same, as it is, as the the Chit-sakti [the power of consciousness] that remains merged non dually with the Supreme Self, which is the extremely clear pure being. 

It should be remembered here that -

1. Bhagavan Ramana answered and explained the facts, depending upon the state of the questioner.

2.  He spoke at different levels depending upon the maturity of the seeker.

3.  The apparently different statements about the destruction of the mind or the destruction of the ego should be read keeping in mind the above items (1) and (2).

The state of Suddha manas, Suddha Nilai and Suddha arivu should be understood in the above contexts.

Arunachala Siva.                   
Title: Re: Ramana Maharshi Says Manonasha Is Not Absolute Destruction of mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 01, 2010, 01:26:53 PM

Dear prasanth,

I felt writing this additional reply for some reasons.  Regarding
Bhagavan Ramana's original teachings, one should go only to:

1. Nan Yar or Who am I?
2. Upadesa Saram and ULLadu Narpadu.
3. His prose translation of Vivekachoodamani and versification
    of Atma Bodham.
4.  Maharshi's Gospel to some extent.
5.  Guru Vachaka Kovai, since every verse and comments of
     Muruganar, has been thoroughly verified and corrected whenever
     necessary by Bhagavan Ramana.

As regards, Talks, Day by Day and Letters, though some of them
have been seen and corrected by Bhagavan Ramana, these are all
conversations which He had with a variety of visitors, devotees and
sincere seekers.  It was in the habit of Bhagavan not to smother
the devotees, but to go in their own line and give suitable replies.
Here the replies VARIED depending upon the maturity of the seekers.  Though recorders have done a honest duty, these replies
have been given taking the devotees's state of mind into consideration. 

So, when He says, something, the replies should be cross checked with Bhagavan Ramana's own teachings in the books mentioned
above.  This will help us to clear many many doubts regarding the
mind, ego, destruction of mind, destruction of ego, chitta vritti,
ahandakara vritti and other such numerous concepts. 

To illustrate how Bhagavan Ramana varied His recommendations  to a sadhak:

Dilip Kumar Roy is an excellent singer of devotional songs.  When
he asked Bhagavan, whether such devotional, heart melting singing, thinking about God would confer him liberation, Bhagavan
Ramana answered "Yes. Pursue that course!"  When later, Devaraja Mudaliar asked Bhagavan, whether he could also sing Tirupugazh
songs and attain mukti, Bhagavan Ramana categorically said:
"No. That path is not for you.  You surrender, if you cannot do self enquiry!"

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Ramana Maharshi Says Manonasha Is Not Absolute Destruction of mind
Post by: Nagaraj on July 01, 2010, 03:42:42 PM
To my understanding, destruction of Ego is destruction of Mind itself. Ego is nothing but the 'I' thought, upon the rise of 'I' thought, Mind comes into picture, when the ego is naught, there is no mind at all.

Therefore Jnani does not have a mind. "There is no Jnani, there is only Jnanam"

It is only through the mind one surrenders, and when there is complete Surrender, there is no more mind or ego.

Mind is Ego.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
Title: Re: Ramana Maharshi Says Manonasha Is Not Absolute Destruction of mind
Post by: ramana_maharshi on July 01, 2010, 04:32:23 PM
well said nagraj garu.

Yes destruction of ego is required.

Once udai garu and raju garu and subramanian garu discussed regarding this in the forum

Mind has two faculties [or read it thoughts are of two types] : ahamkara Vritti, idamkara vritti.

Ahamkara Vritti means "I" thought and related modifications.Ahamkara vritti is identification with a particular notion in mind.

Ahamkara vritti's non presence is required. but idamkara vritti is basic necessity for us to function, talk, speak etc.

Pure Ahamkara Vritti is there even in Jnanis (suddha manas) because,idamkara vritti is not possible without Ahamkara vritti.

Ramana Maharshi says

Small desires such as the desire to eat, drink and sleep and attend to calls of nature, though these may also be classed among desires, you can safely satisfy. They will not implant vasanas in your mind, necessitating further birth. Those activities are just necessary to carry on life and are not likely to develop or leave behind vasanas or tendencies. As a general rule, therefore, there is no harm in satisfying a desire where the satisfaction will not lead to further desires by creating vasanas in the mind. (Day by Day with Bhagavan, 12th April, 1946)

Title: Re: Ramana Maharshi Says Manonasha Is Not Absolute Destruction of mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 02, 2010, 10:11:30 AM

Dear Nagaraj and prasanth,

When the mind is replaced by ego, then there is no problem.
We are able to understand better and we feel more comfortable.

Bhagavan Ramana says in Who am I? :  "Mind is a wondrous power residing in Atma.  It causes all thoughts to arise.  Apart from thoughts, there is no such thing as mind.  Therefore, thought is the
nature of the mind.  Apart from thoughts, there is no independent
entity called the world.  In deep sleep there are no thoughts and there is no world."

Bhagavan Ramana also says in the next paragraph:  That which
rises as 'I' in this body is the mind.  If one inquries as to where in the body the thought 'I' rises first, one would discover that it rises
in the Heart. 

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Ramana Maharshi Says Manonasha Is Not Absolute Destruction of mind
Post by: ramanaduli on July 02, 2010, 09:40:36 PM
Dear Subramaniyan ji

Mind and ego are different one. When the mind is a thought, how the ego takes birth and from where? Can you explain by giving example.
In normal life we need mind. We would say he/she is very sharp in grasping things and does very well in her/his class. Here can we say this type of mind is good or suddha manas.
It is my understanding... I may be wrong. After doing the work, if he/she expects praises or popularity from others
it is ego? which is bad. At the end for name and fame he/she may go to any extent where he/she accumulates karmas which becomes destiny.  ......... I may be wrong.So I request you to explain.

Thanking you,
Title: Re: Ramana Maharshi Says Manonasha Is Not Absolute Destruction of mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 03, 2010, 10:08:30 AM

Dear Ramanaduli,

Mind, if you accept that concept, has not any form, but it is a wondrous power, in Atma.  But when mind produces thoughts and the first thought is always I-thought.  This I-thought is the ego.  Only
this ego has to be conquered, if one has the view that there is no mind at all. 

Arunachala Siva.