The Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

Ramana Maharshi => The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi => Topic started by: DRPVSSNRAJU on August 20, 2008, 07:27:02 PM

Title: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on August 20, 2008, 07:27:02 PM
What is the role surrender in self-enquiry.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 21, 2008, 12:01:48 PM
Dear Raju,  For people who are not having enought determination
to do Self Enquiry, Bhagavan suggested Surrender, the total
surrender, like the King who was about to place his right foot
on the right stirrup of the horse, and but asked to wait by
the Guru for next command!

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: nonduel on August 21, 2008, 04:04:42 PM
Dear Raju-ji and Subramanian-ji,

I believe that surrender is much much more important than I used to think, In all the teaching of Sri Ramana. It goes hand in hand with bhavana.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 21, 2008, 04:21:40 PM
Dear non duel,  Absolutely correct.  Surrender is not an easy
joke.  We are all doing partial surrenders.  Total surrender is
as difficult as self-enquiry, but it opens the gateway to the Self.
By surrender, Bhagavan always meant - Surrender of the individual
soul - Atma Samarpana.  Surrender is the mother of self enquiry,
as devotion is mother of knowledge.  It is because of the Surrender,
the Grace of Guru flows or we become a fit vessel to the everflowing
Grace of Guru.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on August 21, 2008, 04:31:46 PM
Dear nonduel,
                   You got it.Your understanding is supreme in this regard.If there is surrender there is subsidence of mental activity and self-enquiry is a cake walk.Many feel that surrender is not required in this path but nonsurrendered mind will not find it's source of "self"easily.If we are devoted to self
it's magnetic attraction pulls us inside and we easily posit in self because we love it.I feel that surrender and self-enquiry must go hand in hand
for best results and distractions will be less in whom there is surrender.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 21, 2008, 04:34:58 PM
Dear Raju, your post, giving additional insights is really adding
ghee to the rice.

ArunachalaSiva.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: nonduel on August 21, 2008, 05:18:07 PM
Dear Raju-ji and Subramanian-ji,

And since we added some Garam Masala yesterday, the rice should be perfect.  ;D
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on August 22, 2008, 04:51:31 PM
Dear srkudai,
                 Nicely said.I feel they are complimentary.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 22, 2008, 06:27:36 PM
Dear srkudai and Raju, Both are complientary and do not
contradict each other.  But to think surrender is easier than
self-enquriy is not correct.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: SANKAR on August 22, 2008, 09:40:02 PM
Dear non duel,  Absolutely correct.  Surrender is not an easy
joke.  We are all doing partial surrenders.  Total surrender is
as difficult as self-enquiry, but it opens the gateway to the Self.
By surrender, Bhagavan always meant - Surrender of the individual
soul - Atma Samarpana.  Surrender is the mother of self enquiry,
as devotion is mother of knowledge.  It is because of the Surrender,
the Grace of Guru flows or we become a fit vessel to the everflowing
Grace of Guru.

Arunachala Siva. 

DEAR SIR

COULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN ME WHAT IS SURRENDER AND PARTIAL SURRENDER.

SIVA SIVA
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: SANKAR on August 23, 2008, 05:47:01 AM
Dear Sankar,
            :) If i may be allowed to explain that:
Partial surrender is where we take the help of a "thought" to surrender.

Complete Surrender is independent of thoughts.

Love!
Silence

THANK YOU SIR,

FIRSTLY WE ANNIHILATE THOUGHTS WITH THE "WHO AM I"INQUIRY / THOUGHT, FINALLY TO BECOME THOUGHTLESS.
IN COMPLETION OF INQUIRY ONLY TOTAL SURRENDER STAGE ONLY VISIBLE. HUM.

SO WHEN WE ARE REALISED WE ARE SURRENDERED  TO SELF WITHOUT FAILURE. HUM.

SIVA SIVA
SILENCE
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on August 23, 2008, 09:27:16 AM
Dear sankar,
                 In partial surrender still we want things to go according to our wish.There is trust in God but it is not complete.If everything
goes well it is ok,otherwise we will complain to him.Still there are reservations from our side.Still we believe in the ego to some extent
though we have devotion towards God.Thought is quite active in partial surrender.Whereas in complete surrender there is complete
submission of the ego to the God and whatever happens even if it looks negative to others he will accept it as a benediction.
In total surrender no other religious discipline is necessary because in the first step itself ego is sacrificed.Then what remains is contentless
mind with pure consciousness.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 23, 2008, 12:23:18 PM
Dear srkudai,  We are always the Being.  But since we are all
the time doing the thinking and acting, we do not realize the
Self.  Bhagavan says "Stick to one thinking, Who am I? and banish
all other thinking. 

Dear Sankar and Raju,  Partial surrender is asking for the
cake and leaving the God after the cake is given.  Or shouting
at the God, if neem leaves are given instead of the cake!
Manikkavachagar says:- "We shall receive anything that
you give, O Siva, without thinking that, this is good and that is
bad."  (Tiruvachakam).  There is a beautiful English translation
by G.U. Pope, an English Jesuit Father, who came to Tamil Nadu,
to spread Christianity, during 19th century.  He was Bishop of
Tirunelveli Diocese in southern Tamil Nadu.  He learnt Tamil
and read many religious works in Tamil and he was immensely
attacted by Tiruvachakam.  Before he died, he asked his servant,
to read out a verse in Tiruvachakam and left the body!  The verse
is:  O Siva, the concorporate consort of the lady with eyes lke
split unripe mangoes!  You can call me to Your lotus feet or
throw me into hell, I do not know your idea.  I am sufering
like a shuttle which goes hither and thither in the weaving
machine!  O I shall be lost, I seek refuge in You."  (Decad on
surrender).  For people, who do not know already,  Muruganar's
Sri Ramana Sanndhi Murai - The Song of the Holy Presence,
is entirely based on Tiruvachakam, because what Manikkavachagar
is to Siva, Muruganar is to Bhagavan Ramana.  Muruganar's
Guru Vachaka Kovai, is again based on another poem of Manikka
Vachagar, called Tiru-Chitrambala-Kovaiyar.

Arunachala Siva.
     
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: nonduel on August 23, 2008, 06:45:31 PM
Dear Subramanian-ji,

Quote:
""Dear srkudai,  We are always the Being.  But since we are all
the time doing the thinking and acting, we do not realize the
Self.  Bhagavan says "Stick to one thinking, Who am I? and banish
all other thinking.
""

This is really hitting the nail on the head!

So simple, yet we complicate it in an absurb way. This is why we sometime get into hot debate instead of trying to understand what the Self is saying. Reality cannot be convey through words. So when anyone writes about non-duality, he is writting with dual words, concepts. One has to tip-toe through the post to see the underlying meaning. Otherwise we can always correct a little something, and/or add to it because of the duality lenses we are seeing through.

It reminds me of Sri Nisargadatta. He didn't analyse, intellectually reflect and pounder on what his guru told him. He accepted, I AM THAT, and that was it! He dwelved on I AM for three years and realised the Self.

The biggest hurdle is this continuous thinking about difficulties, wanting to learn more, to understand more....while Reality is beyond knowledge.

I like Sri Ramana's...Does a man has to continously say he is a man to know he is a man?

We are already what we are trying to reach. We ARE THAT when we are STILL.

Sri Ramana has said repeatedly, that the most direct way to realisation was Self-Enquiry, self-Attention. Why complicate his most precious gift?

He also said "Self-Realise and THEN talk." 

Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 23, 2008, 08:03:34 PM
My dear non duel, Yes.  Thoughts are the barrier.  As in the
pole-vault game, one has to keep the one long stick of Who am I?
and jump over the other thoughts, the horizontal stick!  Upanishads
say that the Brahman, the Self, is beyond the Vedic words, which
are unclean with saliva, because of mouthing the scriptures!

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: SANKAR on August 23, 2008, 09:49:43 PM
Dear Subramanian-ji,

Quote:
""Dear srkudai,  We are always the Being.  But since we are all
the time doing the thinking and acting, we do not realize the
Self.  Bhagavan says "Stick to one thinking, Who am I? and banish
all other thinking.
""

This is really hitting the nail on the head!

So simple, yet we complicate it in an absurb way. This is why we sometime get into hot debate instead of trying to understand what the Self is saying. Reality cannot be convey through words. So when anyone writes about non-duality, he is writting with dual words, concepts. One has to tip-toe through the post to see the underlying meaning. Otherwise we can always correct a little something, and/or add to it because of the duality lenses we are seeing through.

It reminds me of Sri Nisargadatta. He didn't analyse, intellectually reflect and pounder on what his guru told him. He accepted, I AM THAT, and that was it! He dwelved on I AM for three years and realised the Self.

The biggest hurdle is this continuous thinking about difficulties, wanting to learn more, to understand more....while Reality is beyond knowledge.

I like Sri Ramana's...Does a man has to continously say he is a man to know he is a man?

We are already what we are trying to reach. We ARE THAT when we are STILL.

Sri Ramana has said repeatedly, that the most direct way to realisation was Self-Enquiry, self-Attention. Why complicate his most precious gift?

He also said "Self-Realise and THEN talk." 



Dear sir,
It takes so long period. So one has to be with patience and persistent enquiry with tolerance in due course of time we may experiance lot of troubles and those are to be tolerated with out reacting to it.

what you quoted on top is the practicality. What difficulties he faced and came out he alone knows. We have to bow to them certainly.

As you said rightly that nonduality can not be explained , as there is no one to explain and there is no second to whom to be explained. In that no body consciouness and only the pure consciousness alone shines.

siva siva

silence light
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: nonduel on August 23, 2008, 09:52:49 PM
Dear sankar-ji,

Yes!
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 24, 2008, 11:56:38 AM
Dear Sankar and non duel, It take a shorter or a longer time,
depending upon the carry bag of 'vasanas'.  It took only an
instant for Bhagavan for He was an 'avatara' and there was
no 'probation' period for Him.  For others to may take more
time, sometimes even 96 years, as Chandogya Upanishad says
or many more births.

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: mikroth on August 24, 2008, 05:48:07 PM
This is a respectful enquiry from one who has practised 'Who Am I?' for some time -- in company with many others here in Britain.

It is true, from my experience, that this one question goes straight to the Self and requires no answer, for the question and the answer resolve in the Self...

But for prolonged self-enquiry, the suggestion is that one should ask 'To whom does this thought arise ?'

Grammatically, this question would be inadequate in English grammar; since 'arisal' would need to be 'in' or 'from' some entity. And 'to' suggests direction from a 'thinker' to one addressed..Though of course the intention is clear..

Myself, I have found in this self-analysis or self-inquiry, that posing the questions 'In whom does this thought arise ? And to whom is it directed ?' focus the attention more clearly (for me) in that the ahamkara, the ego, the false 'I' is pointed to as the origin of that thought; and that it is clearly directed to the maintenance, the perpetuating, of that ego, that false I. that ahamkara.

Very often, it's that 'clever fellow' having the thought, in order to perpetuate 'his' opinion of himself...!

Some suggest that 'To whom is this thought addressed ?' will solve the grammatical irregularity. But myself, to seek the 'addressor' is a valid self-enquiry as an aid to surrender.

I apologise if this question has been raised previously. But I (and others I know) would be happy to have 'official' comment on this point -- which I hope does not sound pedantic, or 'cavilling' ! I sincerely hope that the point of this question is apparent..

Yours in the Self,
Mikroth
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: SANKAR on August 24, 2008, 08:06:47 PM
This is a respectful enquiry from one who has practised 'Who Am I?' for some time -- in company with many others here in Britain.

It is true, from my experience, that this one question goes straight to the Self and requires no answer, for the question and the answer resolve in the Self...

But for prolonged self-enquiry, the suggestion is that one should ask 'To whom does this thought arise ?'

Grammatically, this question would be inadequate in English grammar; since 'arisal' would need to be 'in' or 'from' some entity. And 'to' suggests direction from a 'thinker' to one addressed..Though of course the intention is clear..

Myself, I have found in this self-analysis or self-inquiry, that posing the questions 'In whom does this thought arise ? And to whom is it directed ?' focus the attention more clearly (for me) in that the ahamkara, the ego, the false 'I' is pointed to as the origin of that thought; and that it is clearly directed to the maintenance, the perpetuating, of that ego, that false I. that ahamkara.

Very often, it's that 'clever fellow' having the thought, in order to perpetuate 'his' opinion of himself...!

Some suggest that 'To whom is this thought addressed ?' will solve the grammatical irregularity. But myself, to seek the 'addressor' is a valid self-enquiry as an aid to surrender.

I apologise if this question has been raised previously. But I (and others I know) would be happy to have 'official' comment on this point -- which I hope does not sound pedantic, or 'cavilling' ! I sincerely hope that the point of this question is apparent..

Yours in the Self,
Mikroth

DEAR MIKROTH

HAPPY TO WELCOME YOUR FIRST POST.

AS YOU SAID IS PRACTICALLY CORRECT

AS WE GO WITH "WHO AM I" SOME THOUGHTS DO ARISE

THEN REMOVE THAT THOUGHT BY ENQUIRING WHOM THESE THOUGHTS ARE ARISING; IT IS TO ME., WHO IS THAT ME., I., FINALLY AGAIN DIVE INTO WHO AM I.

ALL THE BEST FOR YOUR CONTINUOUS AND SINCERE ENQUIRY.

SIVA SIVA
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: nonduel on August 24, 2008, 08:11:02 PM
This is a respectful enquiry from one who has practised 'Who Am I?' for some time -- in company with many others here in Britain.

It is true, from my experience, that this one question goes straight to the Self and requires no answer, for the question and the answer resolve in the Self...

But for prolonged self-enquiry, the suggestion is that one should ask 'To whom does this thought arise ?'

Grammatically, this question would be inadequate in English grammar; since 'arisal' would need to be 'in' or 'from' some entity. And 'to' suggests direction from a 'thinker' to one addressed..Though of course the intention is clear..

Myself, I have found in this self-analysis or self-inquiry, that posing the questions 'In whom does this thought arise ? And to whom is it directed ?' focus the attention more clearly (for me) in that the ahamkara, the ego, the false 'I' is pointed to as the origin of that thought; and that it is clearly directed to the maintenance, the perpetuating, of that ego, that false I. that ahamkara.

Very often, it's that 'clever fellow' having the thought, in order to perpetuate 'his' opinion of himself...!

Some suggest that 'To whom is this thought addressed ?' will solve the grammatical irregularity. But myself, to seek the 'addressor' is a valid self-enquiry as an aid to surrender.

I apologise if this question has been raised previously. But I (and others I know) would be happy to have 'official' comment on this point -- which I hope does not sound pedantic, or 'cavilling' ! I sincerely hope that the point of this question is apparent..

Yours in the Self,
Mikroth

Dear Mikroth,

Holding on to the "I-thought" is a "doing" and thus dual. There's a thinker holding on the "I-thought". So the question whether "To whom does this thought arise?" and/or "To whom is this thought addressed?" are both dual in nature.  The semantic question is also from the mind.

The answer to both question is "I", "ME".  One cannot go beyond "me" because the mind, the ego cannot "reach" the Self. This is as "far" as the mind can "go". Thus the mind can only hold on the "I-thought". This is also what Sri Sadhu Om explained, that self-enquiry is simply the attention on the self, on self-awareness

I found that most of the time I don't even ask, that as soon as I notice thoughts, I "return" within. Other times, when thoughts "arrise" I will ask "to whom?" and then just repeat once or twice "I"..."I". I find that this helps to focus on the "I-thought" and deepens it. Sri Ramana also said that to repeat "I" "I" will also lead to Realisation. But I do not think that it is to be repeated like a parrot. He said to Be Still, in silence.

But Dear Mikroth, what is more important, is to "do" it the way in which, you are more succesfull in developping one-pointedness on the "I-thought". The mind is very "bright" in raising questions, objections which take your attention away from the self.

The heart of the teaching is one-pointedness on the "I-thought", keeping the attention on the I  AM. It's the later that's important.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on August 24, 2008, 08:21:52 PM
Dear mikroth,
                  I am not an official representative of the forum.What i am writing is only my personal opinion.

                  Seeking the souce of addressor is real self-enquiry which helps in surrender of the ego.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: mikroth on August 24, 2008, 08:53:53 PM
Thanks, Raju, for your appreciation of my point.

Of course, self-enquiry begins from duality.. best of all, to focus attention precisely on that duality as a first step..

And as I said, my enquiry was only for clarification..

How Ramana has travelled the world, since his mahasamadhi ! So each language must seek to present the blessing of his message in the right words. English-speaking readers have a slight problem of focus.. but only with this 'secondary' aid for those who start from duality...the question might even have arisen in the translation from the Tamil ?

And even 'Who am I ?' needs to be watched like a hawk, doesn't it, for the one who says it to say it with the total surrender of a sincere devotee of the Self ?
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Graham on August 24, 2008, 10:23:48 PM
Dear mikroth

There is no 'official' answer to your question except the words of Bhagavan and the other great sages or yore.

Bhagavan was very clear. His teaching is to inquire "Who am I?" or "To whom does this thought arise?" in order to focus the attention on the source of the question, there is no answer, except awareness of 'you'. You simply focus your attention on the answer and remain as that. When the mind strays you bring it back - that's all.

Bhagavan also said that 'Who am I?' is not really correct, 'Whence am I?' is more correct. This clearly implies that the inquiry is not a thought but paying attention to the source of it.

There is no ego apart from the idea of it. Ego is only thought, an aberration on the pure unblemished Self. It arises from the Self and depends upon the Self for its existence; it is never apart from the Self and is in fact the Self, but forgetful of its true nature. It believes the lie of its own existence.

The purpose of the inquiry is to discover the lie and then remain free from it by practicing Self or Brahman. The more you practice, the more tenuous the lie becomes until finally it loses its power to hold you.

I remember reading somewhere that the urge to seek the Self arises from the Self, not from the ego, thus any effort expended in that direction is never wasted.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on August 25, 2008, 09:11:19 AM
Dear Graham,
                  Your response to mikroth's question is excellent.If anybody understands that fully he does not require to read further.Your response
must be printed with golden letters.It is so important.It conveyed all that Bhagawan wanted to convey.The language is simple and the message is lucid.
I request you to participate in the forum for the benefit of the members at least on the questions concerning self-enquiry.Thank you very much.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 25, 2008, 09:22:48 AM
Dear mikroth,  Your post is really excellent.  As Graham said,
Bhagavan also prescribed a supplimentary enquiry, Whence am I?
after Who am I?  Both refer only to 'ahamkara' and not the 'thought'.
Wherefrom this thought arises?  Here, again the 'Where' is not
the PLACE  but the SELF, since "where" refers to 'Which'.  This
is the way in which  Sri Sadhu Om also intepreted.

At a dual level, most of us need a focal point.  This is the right side
Heart,  even though, Heart is everywhere, without in and out.
Even, the famous sloka, "Hryadaya Guhara madhye",  that is,
"In the centre of heart-cavee' also tends to point out the Heart,
at the right side of the chest.

Any one type of enquiry,  be it Who am I? or Whence am I?
is okay.  But it is not the place but of the 'thing.'

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 25, 2008, 10:23:53 AM
Dear mikroth,  Your meaningful first post made me to refer to
Sri Sadhu Om's book, The Path of Sri Ramana, vol.1. again/

First, in Tamil, Who am I? is 'Naan Yar'.  Here, the verb 'am'
is not there. 

Whether your mother tongue is Tamil or English, the confusion
is common.

Second, 'Who' refers to Atma or the Self,  'I' refers to the
individual soul or self mired in ego.  Who am I?  speaks about
the identity of the Self and the individual soul.  Again, Who am I?
like 'Soham' in Sanskrit, I am Brahman, is not a 'mantra' or sacred
word.  Who am I is simply an enquiry to find the source of the
mind or ego,  the Self.

Third, Whence am I?, that is, 'Wherefrom I?' directs you to
the Self, because here the word, 'Where' does not indicate
a place but the 'which' that is, the Self.

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: mikroth on August 25, 2008, 03:05:28 PM
Deep thanks to you all for your helpful answers. I hope you won't mind if I return to this question,  by sketching the situation as I have met it :

'Who am I?' is conquering the Western world of too much thought... and as such is moving into many languages with the aid of instructors or helpers, for those who appreciate the support of others in satsanga in this eternal study.

In these groups (or those known to me), seekers -- many of whom are 'new' to this method of self-investigation, or who have tried more than one path in their search, are presented with the simple question to bring to mind, repeatedly.

What some find, is that this is all that is necessary to connect with self.

But many Westerners find that inevitably, thoughts arise... especially in a prolonged practice; which may be held in an atmosphere which is more jnani than bhakti ! For these, the 'subsidiary' question is offered for self-observation : quoted as 'To whom does this thought arise ?'

Please don't think what I am about to say is a quibble.. since we all know that 'grammar' has existed as a structure long before most spoken languages !

 'To whom does this thought arise' is simply not English grammar : we would need either 'In whom does this thought arise ?' or 'To whom is this thought directed?'

Now my feeling is, that both these questions are relevant to self-investigation : the first looks for the source of this 'I-thought'; the second exposes the ego-image or ahamkara that is trying to perpetuate itself.. (in this seeker, apparently innocent thoughts arise, but really directed to perpetuating an image of myself as a 'clever fellow; who's the first to ask intelligent questions... (Well, that brought me to this Arunachala website at least, sometimes ahamkara serves atman...!)

So I'm asking what more experienced seekers make of this grammatical question; since I hope I speak for many (slightly pedantic ?) English-language speakers for whom 'Who am I' has changed their lives, and who hope to pass this precious blessing on to others..

And apologies if I seem to be thrashing an innocent flea here... you may tell me when it's time for me to lapse into that eternal conversation of silence !

With much love for all,
Mikroth.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 25, 2008, 03:59:47 PM
My dear mikroth,  I am happy with your meaningful new post.
Be they westerners or orientals, the doubts arise everywhere,
because the Self does not make it easy for a particular set of
people in geography.

Now I shall explain with two or three examples:

1.  Bhagavan did not name his book, (or later someone named
it after consulting Him) as" Atma Vichara or An enquiry into the
 Self," because the Self cannot be enquired into!  Only the Anatma,
the nonself can be enquired into.  Hence He gave a new name,
Naan Yaar in Tamil, or Who am I? in English.

2. Bhagavan never said 'Whence' or 'Wherefrom', to mean
the 'place'.  He always meant, 'Whichfrom', if such a phrase can
be permitted in English.  For example, we ask, 'Wherefrom the
butter"?  A puritan English answer would be, 'from the milk-pot!'
But, everyone says, 'from the milk', meaning the Thing from which
the butter came and not the place.

3. Again the 'coming' and 'going' can be explained further, not
with this example, but with a different example.  When you see
snake, in the dark, which is really a rope, and when someone brings
'light' to enable you to see the rope, has the rope 'come' and the
snake 'gone'?  No, only one Thing is there.  As soon as the rope
is understood, the snake disappears.  Similarly, when you under
stand and enquire into the mind and its mischief making consort,
the ego, they disappear and the Self 'reveals'or the Self is understood!

3. When someone, who came from London, asked Bhagavan,
'Where I can go?', meaning how to realize the Self, Bhagavan
replied:  'Go to where you came from!'.  He did not mean definitely
London, the place, but the Self, the Thing, from which the ego
came. 

4.  Similarly, when some one asked, "Who am I?", Bhagavan
did not reply.  After several attempts, when the questioner
reframed the question, "Where is the Self?", He answered,
"The Self is there 'where' I is lost!"   Hereagain, the Self is
there in 'which' I is lost!

5.  Again, because the seekers wanted a place during the
practising period, He mentioned the right side of the heart,
which He called, the Heart. 

6. You may see from his Ulladu Narpadu, For verses on Existence,
the place is never mentioned.  Only in the Supplement to Forty
Verses on Existence, He mentioned a place for enquiry, by quoting
from Sanskrit poems called Ashtanga Hrudayam.

7.  All of us are seekers only, hence the place is important till
we know the Self.

Arunachala Siva.
     
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: nonduel on August 25, 2008, 04:30:41 PM
Dear Subramanian-ji,

Thank you for that "enlightening" post.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 25, 2008, 04:55:44 PM
Dear nonduel,  All the ideas have been taken from Sri Sadhu
Om's books.  It is the light shown by him, a true interpreter of
Bhagavan's teachings, apart from Muruganar, Who, Graham
Boyd and David Godman.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: mikroth on August 25, 2008, 05:57:36 PM
Sri Arunachala Siva, thank you for that generous response.

The truth could not be clearer ! As Bhagavan says, 'thoughts' arise in the heart; so 'Self-enquiry' arises from the Self -- which could rest in itself; but which finds itself in an alien land, where it must ask for a map or a wise man !

So all self-enquiry must be good of itself..

And one could say, in poetic style: in the heart, the Self is the Who, the What, the Which, the Whence, and thus beyond the time and place of the When and the Where...

So all self-enquiry must be good of itself !

I'm happy to leave my enquiries there; we're implicitly told by Bhagavan not to ask questions on behalf of others !

Nevertheless, a point of grammar remains in English... but I'll leave it to someone else to raise it !

Blessings on you all,
Michael
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: nonduel on August 25, 2008, 06:16:06 PM
Dear nonduel,  All the ideas have been taken from Sri Sadhu
Om's books.  It is the light shown by him, a true interpreter of
Bhagavan's teachings, apart from Muruganar, Who, Graham
Boyd and David Godman.

Arunachala Siva.

Dear Subramanian-ji,

You are too modest my friend.

I have also read and greatly love Sri Sadhu Om's books. Particularly since he wrote the teaching of Sri Ramana in english, thus available to all those who do not speak Tamil, Telugu etc... For all the work that this implies, it is a great gift of Love from Sri Sadhu Om.

Nevertheless, my friend, you have an ability in writting about delicate and subtles points of Sri Ramana's teaching that helps everyone here understand. Your last reply, is a perfect example. I should know, because I often clumsily try to respond to post, and get lost in too many words. I only hope that once in a while they are a little helpful. Grace flows from you to all members here.

Accept a sincere compliment Dear Subramanian !

 
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on August 25, 2008, 06:45:57 PM
Dear all,
          Self-enquiry is not an enquiry into the self.It is an enquiry into the belief of the ego that it has an independent existence of it's own apart
from the self.It is an enquiry into the identifying entity which imagines itself to be the body.Unless we pay focussed attention to the source of ego and posit there which is self,this belief of the ego that it exists independently of self is not destroyed.
When we posit in the self we are free from the idea of ego which is just a concept and has no locus standi.When we are free from the concept of the ego we are free from the identity with the body and we are free from the mother thought "I-am-the-body-idea" from which all other thoughts arise and so there is collapse of the thought process into it's source.So self-enquiry is basically attending to
the source of thought.This self-attentiveness finally blossom into the experience of pure self-conscious being.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: nonduel on August 25, 2008, 07:26:47 PM
Dear all,
          Self-enquiry is not an enquiry into the self.It is an enquiry into the belief of the ego that it has an independent existence of it's own apart
from the self.It is an enquiry into the identifying entity which imagines itself to be the body.Unless we pay focussed attention to the source of ego and posit there which is self,this belief of the ego that it exists independently of self is not destroyed.
When we posit in the self we are free from the idea of ego which is just a concept and has no locus standi.When we are free from the concept of the ego we are free from the identity with the body and we are free from the mother thought "I-am-the-body-idea" from which all other thoughts arise and so there is collapse of the thought process into it's source.So self-enquiry is basically attending to
the source of thought.This self-attentiveness finally blossom into the experience of pure self-conscious being.

Dear raju-ji,

This is an area were it is difficult to find the correct words, because no matter the words used, they are concepts in duality.

Please correct me if I am wrong here.  I have difficulties with """ Self-Enquiry is basically atending to the source of thought".  My understanding is that we are not attending to the source but to the first thought, the mother thought.

The source being the Self.  Because attending to the source, means looking for a localisation. A source means a place, whereas Self-Enquiry is only Self-Attention, putting the attention on I AM, awareness focussing on awareness. The mere attention on oneself.

This is also a doing, but which is the nearest to a BEING.

I know that you know all this Dear Raju, just the play of words.

 
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on August 25, 2008, 09:23:16 PM
Dear nonduel,
                  As you said when we want to express nonduality in the language of duality there are bound to be difficulties in finding proper words for
what we want to convey and also in understanding what is being said.You said self-enquiry is attending to the mother thought.Yes,when we attend to mother thought all our attention withdrawn from the nonself and is concentrated in the mother thought only without much movement.Then
the final step occurs i.e paying attention to the source of the mother thought also which is nothing but self.When i say source i do not mean
localisation of a place.The source is a living,pulsatile consciousness and unless one experiences it directly for himself any amount of description
will not convey the thing because the description is not the described.One has to live as the source to know the nature of the source.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 26, 2008, 11:04:06 AM
Dear mikroth,  You are correct.  There could be difficulties in
words and their meanings, because each language has got its
own idiom and etimology.  But the fact remains that the SELF
is Who, Where, When, How, Which etc., etc., because the SELF
is One without a second, and there is nothing apart from That.
It is within,without, in and out, vertical, horizonal etc., etc.,

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 26, 2008, 11:09:54 AM
Dear non duel,  You are correct.  Self enquiry is the enquiry into
the source of thought, the Self, but all of us have to first take
one thought, Who am I? in jnana marga, or Am I He, in Atma
Samarpanam in bhakti marga, or My work is His, in karma marga
or My breath is He is yoga marga.  Only the time is the variant here.
One realizes the Self very swiftly, others may take a longer time.
It is here, where our purva-samskarams, the inherent tendencies
of the previous births come into play.

Arunachala Siva.         
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 26, 2008, 11:16:27 AM
Dear Raju,  "Attending to the mother" is a good example.  For
all thoughts, the mother-thought is Who am I?  This one
thought, when pursued takes us to the Self.  Till we become the
Self, we are non dual and words have to be expressed to explain
the situation.  The Self has no word, no expression.  It is an
experience.  That is why the Upanishads say;  It is there where
the words (Vedas) have gone and come back, without finding.
Bhagavan says that the one thought is the stick that
stirs the funeral pyre.  Even this stick has to be burnt at the end.
(Who am I?  - 1902)

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: mikroth on August 26, 2008, 03:16:41 PM
Dear disciples,

I thought I had no further questions... but another point comes to mind : which once again, is not 'my' problem but one which arises to 'early-stage' disciples -- and which arose widely when 'transcendental meditation' first arrived in the thought-laden West..

It could be put simply as 'surrender or inspect ?'

More advanced practitioners have no problem -- 'who?' becomes such 'second nature' that it becomes simultaneous, synonymous, with 'falling still'... like the 'Cheshire cat'  in 'Alice in Wonderland', it slowly fades into a mere instant memory of the question 'Who?' and surrender of ego is instantaneous.

Bhagavan so often said 'The only practice is to find out "to whom these questions arise" '

The 'early-stage disciple' finds themself dealing with a torrent of thoughts... One by one, they are dealt with. But here comes that point of 'surrender or inspect'.. to surrender the thought without regard for its nature -- 'it's just thought...', or look at its nature to see what it reveals of one's personal false ego ?

Over time, 'inspecting the thought' reveals a fundamental picture of ourself which we hold on to as the last thing to give up -- in my case, as 'nonduel' has observed, 'the bright mind' which is first to ask questions, under the guise of asking them for others or for mankind...whose ultimate power can only be of the heart, of the self ?

Did Bhagavan ever comment on this 'jnani' aspect of self-enquiry, and its relation to the fundamental and ultimate practice of 'Who?' ?

Once again, I hope this makes sense...

Mikroth
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 26, 2008, 04:55:18 PM
Dear mickroth,  Transcedental meditation also gives a word,
mostly meaningless, as 'mantra'.  The idea is to dwell in that
word, its 'sound' which soothes the mind.  This is called Nadha-
upasana' in Sanskrit.  All classical Indian music are only sound-
meditating, Nadha-Upasana!  In the classical dance-posture
of Nataraja, Siva, is full of meaning.  The hand-drum is the
sound aspect.  The snakes are the poisonous mind.  The fire
is the fire of meditation or self enquiry.  The Ganges, on his
head is the water of bliss.  The dwarf under his right leg is
the cantankerous individual soul.  The right lower hand, which
extends like an elephant's trunk, Gaja-hastham,  is the grace,
and the left leg is the merger with the Self. 

But TM goes only upto mano-laya or quietening of the mind.
Bhagavan said that one has to kill the mind, mano-nasa, which
goes beyond the sound, the mantra-japa.  This is what He told
to Kavyakanta Ganapati Muni, a great scholar, and a mantra-siddha
with a lot of super-natural powers, when he cried before Bhagavan
saying that he had not attained piece.

Arunachala Siva.





 


Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: mikroth on August 26, 2008, 06:28:18 PM
Sri Subramanian, thank you for that.

I have no experience of TM myself. But I'm sure that the many TM meditators would be relieved to her that Bhagavan didn't forbid mantra meditation to Ganapathi or say that it was useless -- just that he should listen for the source of the mantra.

But I follow the implicit message of your answer. Surrender is 'safer' than 'inspection', which could be simply perpetuating the dualistic actions of the mind 'analyzing' the mind. Or mind could be used as the thorn to remove the thorn of mind !

I guess all would depend, as always, on the purity of devotion !

mikroth
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 26, 2008, 06:53:10 PM
Dear mikroth,  Surrender is not safer.  It is as difficult as Vichara,
the self enquiry.  We are adept in partial surrenders.  Give me only
sweet or I shall shout at you.  Do not give me neem-paste, lest
I should shout at you. Bhagavan means that surrender, 'saranagati'
in Sanskrit, is Atma Samarpanam, giving your stupid self to the Self.
The Self is considered as feet of the Guru.  Tiruvchakam, the famous
poem of Saint Manikkavachagar, is only the glorification of Siva's
feet.  He says, 'it is beyond the seven underworlds, beyond words.
That is what Arunachala Puranam, says.  Siva stood as a column of
Fire, Brahma, the creator flew on a swan to find its head and Vishnu,
the sustainer, bored the earth as a boar, to find its feet.  Both
failed!  Both could not fathom the Self, Brahman.  Muruganar's
Sri Ramana Padamalai, Guru Vachaka Kovai and Sri Ramana Sannidhi
Murai, are all eulogies on Guru's feet.     

Keep one thought "Who am I?" to find the Self, within.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: mikroth on August 26, 2008, 07:51:01 PM
Sri Subramanian --

Apologies. I should have expressed myself more clearly. I was meaning to refer to thoughts arising during the 'stilling' process of self-enquiry: perhaps 'relinquishing' would be more appropriate to individual thoughts ? Though of course the ultimate surrender would await, beyond that action.

The question was simply, whether to 'formulate' those thoughts before reliquishing them, or to 'catch them on the bounce' and relinquish them before they formulate from that cloudy 'mind-stuff' or 'thought-stuff' !

But I felt that you had answered the essential question.. using the mind to 'eliminate' the mind is a risky process; relinquishing the thoughts would be better ? And more propitious to further stillness.

Gratefully,
mikroth
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 26, 2008, 08:06:46 PM
Dear mikroth,  I can only say what Bhagavan Ramana said:
He says in Who am I?

"What is there, if a number of thoughts arise?  As and when
thoughts arise, you enquire, for whom are these thoughts?
(one thought or a bunch of thoughts.  It may be during enquiry,
or during stilling process.) Then these thoughts will go back
to their "birth-place" that is the Heart. If you continue, there
will be a stage, when there are no thoughts, and only the Self
remains."

Again Bhagavan says:  "It wlll be like soldiers coming out of the
fortress.  As long as there are soldiers,  you go on vanquishing them.
Then the fortress will be on your hands."

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: mikroth on August 26, 2008, 09:20:18 PM
That's fine -- I'm happy with that... thank you, Sir.

mikroth

Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: SANKAR on August 26, 2008, 09:46:33 PM
Sri Subramanian, thank you for that.

I have no experience of TM myself. But I'm sure that the many TM meditators would be relieved to her that Bhagavan didn't forbid mantra meditation to Ganapathi or say that it was useless -- just that he should listen for the source of the mantra.

But I follow the implicit message of your answer. Surrender is 'safer' than 'inspection', which could be simply perpetuating the dualistic actions of the mind 'analyzing' the mind. Or mind could be used as the thorn to remove the thorn of mind !

I guess all would depend, as always, on the purity of devotion !

mikroth

DEAR SIR,

WITHOUT PURITY OF HEART ONE CAN NEVER  REACH AND REMAIN IN THE SELF FOREVER. WITH ANY AMOUNT MANTRA, TANTRA AND ENQUIRY. THE ENQUIRY FIRST PURIFIES YOU FIRST THEN IT TAKES YOU FURTHER. LET US TRY TO CLEANSE OUR HEART OF ALL DUST AS WE KNOW OURSELF BETTER THAN ANY ONE, AS THE SELF IN OURSELF IS THE WITNESS.

SIVA SIVA
Title: Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on August 26, 2008, 09:55:08 PM
Dear sankar,
                You are right.Purity of heart is more important than anything else in spirituality.Only pure people have the intelligence and sacrifice which
are required for surrender.