The Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: DRPVSSNRAJU on August 19, 2008, 12:00:33 PM

Title: Self-conscious being-Thought
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on August 19, 2008, 12:00:33 PM
Can we attain thought-free self-conscious being through thought?
Title: Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 19, 2008, 04:19:27 PM
Dear DRPVSSN Raju & srkudai,  Thought-free consciousness
can be attained only through the thought.  Please read the
stick and the funeral pyre story.  This only remaining thought
will also burn away at the end.

As srkudai, the five sheaths (pancha kosas) are within the body.
Bhagavan says, that one should enquire the Self within these five
kosas (which includes the mind, which produces thoughts) and not
outside from the books. (Who am I? -1902).

It is like pulling out the innermost stem of an elephant grass,
(dharba - which is used in ceremonies).

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 20, 2008, 11:15:40 AM
Dear srkudai,  The discussions are going awesome and crazy.

1.  Thoughtlessness is not a think of being thoughtless.  It is just
being thoughtless, and that is all.  No one can think about thoughtlessness.

2.  Thoughtlessness is Self Realization.  Please see Who am I?

3.  For a Jnani who has already killed his mind, and who is ever
thoughtless, the mind is like a burnt rope.  The mind is no
longer useful.  How he does he think, how does he live in body,
how does he talk, how does he eat, how does he write, how does
he dream, how does he sleep  -  He does all this as the SELF.
When the SELF could be everywhere, all powerful, all wise, all
effulgent, does it need a mind to do all the above things that I
above mentioned?

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 21, 2008, 05:31:41 PM
Dear srkudai,  Yesterday, I mentioned "thoughtless state is
self realization" and you had a different view.

Again,  I am quoting from Who am I?  Please read this, and
tell me, whether 'thoughtless state is self realization".

Under Question 16, Bhagavan says:  The Self is that where there
is absolutely no "I" thought.  This is called, 'Silence'.  The Self
itself is the world, the Self itself is "I".  The Self itself is God.
All is Siva, the Self.

(Here Bhagavan mentioned "I" thought, because "I" thought
is the root of all thoughts).

Again under Question 25, Bhagavan says:  "Remaining quiet is
what is called Wisdom-insight.  To remain quiet is to resolve the
mind in the Self......"

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on August 22, 2008, 08:52:37 AM
Dear srkudai,
                 I will try to explain in a different way about what you wrote.Suppose an infant is taking breast milk from his mother while sleeping
he is not aware of the act of what he is doing.He is only enjoying the happiness of deep sleep even during the act of breast feeding.It is only
from the point of view of others that he is sucking the breast.From his point he is not aware of being in any action but only enjoying the
happiness of deep sleep.There,in case of infant there is no doer sucking the breast nor there is a thought from his side but action happens
by itself on it's own accord without the interference of the thought.In a similar way Bhagawan is so much self absorbed many times he used
to say i am aware that i am here and i have a body because you are pointing it.When Bhagawan dealt the outside world there is no thinker
in him.His thoughts and acts are spontaneous response to a challenge unlike our's which usually is a calculated response from the thinker
inside us.As far as we are concerned unless the thinker is annihilated by what ever is the means the spontaneous revelation of self-conscious
being is not possible.Bhagawan in sahaja samadhi having thoughts does not mean that we can be a thinker with thoughts and at the same
time attain the self-conscious being.
So far no body answered to my original question"can we attain self-conscious being through thought"?While answering many are deviating
from the essence of the question and answering in their own way.
My experience is that clarity of self-consciousness is inversely proportional to thought traffic.
Thought is an off spring of self-ignorance.How can such instrument be used to find the self?That is my question.
Decrease in thought traffic amounts to decrease of self-ignorance which facilitates the spontaneous revelation of the self.
For this self-enquiry is the best way.
Title: Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on August 22, 2008, 10:31:16 AM
Dear srkudai,
                 I feel that whole humanity identify with body-mind complex.Afflictions of them affect them because they superimpose the
afflictions of the body and mind on them due to the defect of Adhyasa.I agree there is undercurrent of stillness even when we are engaged
in thought or activity.But that applies to only those who are established in witnessing consciousness.You are saying that thoughts are helpful for realisation.Then why Manonasa is very much stressed as the basis of realisation?For those who are identified with the body bound "I" i feel that
thoughts are a hindrance and they are required to do self-enquiry to posit in the self-conscious being.
Title: Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 22, 2008, 11:05:51 AM
Dear srkudai and Raju,  In the movie example, the movie is the
Jagat and not I.  By seeing the character in the movie as 'I', you
are acting by superimpsing yourself in you.  The Watcher is the
Self.  When the watcher stops seeing the movie, the movie does
not stop.  Here the world does not stop.  But for whom?  For
others.  So far, you are concerned, the continuation of movie
is as good as its stopping, becuase, you are not seeing,  At night,
when you are sleeping, the world is not there for you.  But for
a mechanic doing night shift in the office, the world is.  Bhagavan's
reference is always towards the 'seeker' and all the upadesa is
for the seeker.  Hence, He does not bother, whether the world
is there for others , but only says that the world is not there for you.

Hence, I still believe that the thoughtless state is a self realized
state.  If a Jnani does work, he does so, as I told earier, with the
Suddha manas, a Pure Mind, which is like a burnt rope.  In other
words, things around a Jnani happen because of his Sannidhya,
the power of the presence.

All of us can discuss this thing further, for more light to the topic.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on August 22, 2008, 11:15:16 AM
Dear srkudai,
                 I never said manonasa is physical destrction of the mind.With all respect for you i feel that destruction of identity with the mind
is through thought in the initial stages.I also differ with your concept that mind has the capacity to go beyond itself.
Title: Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 22, 2008, 02:28:06 PM
Dear Raju and srkudai,  all this drama occurs because of chit-jada
granthi, the self-body complex.  When we say, mano-nasa, it is
not 'killing the mind', because 'mind' has not got any 'physical
entity' for killing.  It is 'leaving' the mind, or resolving the mind,
once for all and staying in the Self.  Whenever we think of
something, while watching a TV story or a cinema,  and in the process, miss a scene in TV or cinema, we say that 'mind has gone somewhere.
In other words, mind has left the scene.  Again, Raju, it is only
with the mind, the mind can be 'killed ' or left for good.
As Bhagavan says, it is like a stick that is used to stir the funeral
pyre, and after the work is over, the stick is also burnt on the pyre.
(Who am I?).

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on August 22, 2008, 03:49:09 PM
Dear subramanian,
                        Because of your moderation the spiritual boxing and punching has at last stopped.Surprisingly here the winner is the moderator.
Title: Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 22, 2008, 03:54:39 PM
Dear srkudai,  You said it.  In retrospect, I think, Bhagavan
said this "Suddha manas" concept for two reasons.  One is
to clarify the doubt of the seekers, as how can Bhagavan do
all the work in this world,  without mind.  Second, many of us are damn afraid of mano-nasa, thinking that we would then go mad!  Bhagavan
said:  All right, do not be afraid, have a Suddha manas.  This reminds
me of a story in management.  A person had a monkey, hung
permanently around his neck and the knot was so tight that
no one could untie it.  One doctor said:  All right, I shall sedate
you, so that the monkey will not trouble you and he was put
on sedation.  Another came and said:  No I shall not sedate you,
I shall sedate the monkey, and the monkey was sedated so that
it could not trouble that man.  After sometime, nothing worked.
Then one another doctor came and said:  It is simple, I shall
untie the knot;  he untied it, with some difficulty and both the
man and the monkey became peaceful.  After some time,
the man came again!  I am so much used to monkey and now I am
not able to live without the monkey!  Then the doctor said:
All right, I shall paint a monkey on your chest!  You can always
"feel"  that the monkey is ever with you.  He did the painting,
and the man became peaceful without any further problem.
The painted monkey, is perhaps, the Suddha manas!

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Self-conscious being-Thought
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 22, 2008, 04:03:41 PM
Dear Raju, in spiritual game, every one is a winner, because
everyone gets gold medal, that is Light.  There is no silver and
bronze here.

Dear srkduai, the when the person who is an audience in the
movie, becomes the Witness, it does not matter, whether the
play stops or not.  If by inter galactic wars, all the universe
perishes, even then Brahman is a Witness, though the 'play'
has stopped.  At that time, the 'maha-maya' curls up into the
Brahman.  Or Sakti is united with Siva, till the next play starts,
for her to do her mischief.

Arunachala Siva.