The Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

Ramana Maharshi => The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi => Topic started by: saraskrishna on August 14, 2009, 03:19:02 PM

Title: what is subtle body?
Post by: saraskrishna on August 14, 2009, 03:19:02 PM
Can some one please tell me what is called or referred to as subtle body?
Title: Re: what is subtle body?
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 14, 2009, 05:26:10 PM
Dear saraskrishna,

In the waking state, all my five senses are operating.  I see,
smell, taste, hear and touch with my sense organs.  The mind,
body and senses are all active.

Suppose I go to sleep.  I am not getting deep sleep.  There is
a dream.  In the dream, I see Arunachala Hill, I smell fragrant
flowers of the hillside, I taste nice Asramam food, I hear someone
explaining Sad Darsanam, I touch the books in the bookshop.
In the dream, I am doing all these, without my body and senses
being there.  This is done by my mind.  This mind, which sees etc.,
without body and sense organs, is called Mind or Jiva or Suksuhuma
Sarira and SUBTLE BODY.

In the deep sleep, the mind is also not there.  But there is the
Witness.  This only makes me tell my wife that I had a good sleep
the previous night.  This is Karana Sarira or Causal Body.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: what is subtle body?
Post by: amiatall on August 14, 2009, 05:31:13 PM
subtle body is the body which pervades physical body and collects through it various information, also called emotional body/astral body/dream body.

why care of such things anyway if you practice self inquiry?
Title: Re: what is subtle body?
Post by: saraskrishna on August 14, 2009, 06:43:27 PM
Thanks Subramanian and Amiatall.... I had a general idea about it, and your answers confirmed it.

Yes Amiatall, you are true.. i need not worry about it as that is also a manifestation of mind. But, my real intended question was how do we do the self-enquiry while in a subtle body.  While in waking state, I'm able to waive-off most of the thoughts just by asking myself why did such a thought came to me.. where do I loose the control while in subtle body?

But the other aspect is, on days when I had strongly perfromed self-enquiry and kicked out most of all thoughts, I used to have dreamless sleep. I believe, a strong self-enquiry will avoid subtle body also? or is that different?
Title: Re: what is subtle body?
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 14, 2009, 07:27:01 PM
Dear saraskrishna,

Your observation in the last paragraph of your post is absolutely
correct.  If you remain in thoughtless state, doing self enquiry,
or with one thought of your Guru or personal God, the sleep
state will also have either dreamless-ness or your Guru or
personal god's form in the dream.  But there are vasanas, which
will not go away that easily.  Even if your present waking state is thoughtless, certain latent tendencies, vasanas carried by our
mind right from our birth, will give dreams sometimes.

Once some devotee asked Bhagavan Ramana:  Swami, do you
have dreams in your sleep?

Bhagavan Ramana said:  I see sometimes temples, images of gods
and temple towers sometimes.  This is good vasana and Bhagavan
Ramana had it sometimes. 

Keats or is it Shelley, said:

I do not see what flowers are at my feet,
The hawthorne and egalanatine are there!

Not seeing flowers, but to say that some flowers are there at his
feet, is a dream state experience!  Perhaps he smelt them in
the dream!

Arunachala Siva.           
Title: Re: what is subtle body?
Post by: amiatall on August 14, 2009, 07:40:39 PM
I believe, a strong self-enquiry will avoid subtle body also? or is that different?

as long as there are thoughts and bodies, self-enquiry is needed. but one day your awareness of yourself will be so strong that nothing apart from Self will be seen.
it does not mean that appearances disappear but it is recognized as appearances and nothing more.

Title: Re: what is subtle body?
Post by: nonduel on August 15, 2009, 05:54:02 PM
As long as vasanas remain in the causal body, rebirth is inevitable. I would like to add to this subject for additional discusion.

For the Sadhaka doing self-enquiry, what happens?
What about knowledge of the scriptures, Sri Ramana's teaching?
Bhavana, conviction?

Post by Subramanian

Bhagavan:  All right.  What need to be said has been said.
Well, what is destiny?  There is no destiny.  Surrender, all
will be well.  Throw all the responsibility on God.  Do not
bear the burden yourself.  What can destiny do to you then?
[Read also verse 9 of Arunachala Padigam here].

Maharani:  Surrender is impossible.

Bhagavan:  Yes.  Complete surrender is impossible in the
beginning.  Partial surrender is certainly possible.  In course
of time, it will lead to complete surrender.  Well, if surrender
is impossible, what can be done?  There is no peace of mind.
You are helpless to bring it about.  It can be done only by surrender.

Devotee:  Partial surrender...well.. can it undo destiny?

Bhagavan: [smiling]: Oh, yes! It can.

Devotee:  Is not destiny due to past karma?

Bhagavan:  If one is surrendered to God, God will look to it."

Devotee:  This being God's dispensation, how does God undo it?

Maharshi's Gospel and Talks - 21
« on: June 22, 2009, 12:45:37 PM »
Title: Re: what is subtle body?
Post by: nonduel on August 17, 2009, 05:35:03 PM
Dear Srkudai,

My post wasn't very clear, but your reply is!

""the mind and body equipment are dreamlike and they function under dreamlike law of karma ... they are affected by prarabdha ... the Self does not have any karma ... it is not the doer nor the enjoyer [neither karta nor bokhta].""

Absolute faith in the guru's words, utter conviction that I am not the body, I am not the doer. Rest in this absolute conviction (surrender).

There is a line one has to cross, where there is no searching, goal to attain, knowledge to acquire, effort to realise....what is left is only BEING.

Title: Re: what is subtle body?
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 18, 2009, 12:39:53 PM
Dear srkudai,

Yes.  Even during Bhagavan Ramana's times, many devotees
expressed desire to go to places like Kasi, Rameswaram, Chidambaram etc.,  Bhagavan Ramana, as usual kept quiet,
without approving or not approving.  In a few rare cases, like
that of Arthur Osborne's {because he was a Westerner and he
wanted to see holy places of India}, He said Yes.  In a few other
cases, He deliberately disapproved it.  Once Kunju Swami had
some tiff in the Asramam, and he wanted to go and spend some
time in Tiruapati.  Bhagavan Ramana took him for giri-pradakshina
and deliberately walked slow, so that Kunju Swami could not go
to the railway station!  When the steam engine puffed past Tiruvannamalai station, Bhagavan and Ramana were on the Hill
and He showed the train and told Kunju Swami:  Go, go, fly to
the railway station!  He thus stopped him from going.

Muruganar either wrote or took from old Tamil book, the following
four line poem:

Neerellam Ganga  (all waters are Ganga)
Nilamellam Kasi  (all lands are Kasi)
Oorellam Thillai (all towns are Chidambaram, Thillai in Tamil)
Malaiyellam Arunamalai (all hills are Arunachala)

This is the unification of all experiences into the experience of the
Self.  Bhagavan Ramana said in Upadesa Saram: Verse 10 the
same idea.  To remain curled up in the place wherefrom you
rise, is all karma, bhakti, yoga and Jnana.

Arunachala Siva.         
Title: Re: what is subtle body?
Post by: saraskrishna on August 18, 2009, 03:47:49 PM
I just want to narrate an experience I had in last night sleep...,

The whole day I kept doing self-enquiry and at some times when I was not able to do so, i just chanted om namah shivaya continously.  Also, I wanted to see the self-enquiry happening in subtle body also.  Today, during early hours I had a dream.. In that dream, I was talking to a person aged around 50yrs, who seems to be professor or a teacher in my school.  Our talks were around philosophy and I was telling him to read some books of U G Krishnamurthy and then suddenly he gets up from his chair picks up the news paper and shows me a news about a tragic incident that happened in some place.  I was not actually reading the news, rather that total news was just running as a short video clip on that area of news paper for me..

I see some three little boys playing and fighting in a slum area, their fight becomes severe and two little boys start hitting the third one very dangerously and finally they kill him and throw him aside near the rubbish and waste... The way they were hitting the third one was very violent that one might not have see in reality!!!! after that little boy falls dead, some stray dogs start grazing on the body..  within few minutes, a women comes running, chases away the dogs and hugs the body and cries.. that was the mother, I was totally shattered in subtle body.. but very next moment, my mind in subtle body starts asking who is dead ? who is eaten ? and who is suffering from the witnessing the scene...? I was out of my grief and I was chanting om namah shivaya...  Had I not known to surrender everything to God as Ramana taught, the effect would have taken to my gross body and would have cried!!!.. All are my karma and i have to witness them till they empty out..

Title: Re: what is subtle body?
Post by: Subramanian.R on August 18, 2009, 05:33:35 PM
Dear saraskrishna,

Yes. Some dreams give us insights which are rare to get in
waking state too. 

I just now wrote about Verses 14, 16 and 15 of Sad Darsanam.
Your post makes me to say about Verse 17.  So long as there
is identification in body, there is a thought that one is bound
by body.  This happens in our waking state.  I have pain on my
left knee, I feel that I am having pain.  This body consciousness
is identifed as Self.  After a painkiller, when I go to sleep, I have
no pain at all.  But in my dream, I feel that I am having a knee
operation and I cry.  It is the mind that cries in the dream.  Once
one analyzes that there is no body or mind, then there is no pain
at all.  But most of us cannot do this even bit.  Bhagavan Ramana
was in a bodyless, mindless state.  He never bothered about His
death or someone else's death of the physical body.  (Of course,
He pitied with the bereaved, eg. G.V. Subbaramaiah when he
had lost his middle aged wife and emitted grace to them to overcome
the pain.)   That is why, when He had tremendous pain on his
left arm, after four surgeries for cancer, a few days before His
"Mahanirvana", when some attendant was asking Him:  Swami,
is it paining?  Bhagavan Ramana replied:  "Yes, The body is paining!"  See He did not say that "His body"!

Verse 17 of Sad Darsanam:

Dehatma bhave jna-jadau samanau
Ekasya dehe hrdi dipta atma
Akramya deham cha jagae-cha-purnah
Parasya meyam tanu-matram-atma.     

Arunachala Siva.