The Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

Ramana Maharshi => The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi => Topic started by: srkudai on November 12, 2008, 06:12:47 PM

Title: Upadesha Saram
Post by: srkudai on November 12, 2008, 06:12:47 PM
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 12, 2008, 06:32:34 PM
Dear Srk Udai,
                   Today is an ausicious day of kartika pournima.When i have seen your post i felt it as a spiritual gift from siva through you.
You are the right person to do that because you have proper understanding of it already and you are having grip in sanskrit and English which are essential
to present the subject in this forum.I request you to give literal meaning of each word before proceeding to comment on each verse.
It will be much more interesting if people like Subramanian and Ramanaduli participate in the commentary simultaneously with you.
I sincerely feel that this is a great contribution from you to Ramana devotees like me.Thank you.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 12, 2008, 07:40:45 PM
Dear srkudai,

Wecome with your Upadesa Saram.  It is an opportunity to read,
learn and understand it together in the Forum.  Excellent efforts.
Please continue.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: matthias on November 12, 2008, 08:13:44 PM
thank your for this post a very inspired idea :)

I just pic up my german translation of the first verse....

for me this verse is to be read (like any other verse of bhagavan) with the totality of the self, the hidden aspects of it, the obvious, the unchangeble heart..all I can offer to his words should be offered..

what also is wonderfull about upadesa saram is that all verses always point to the highest,... always...

he underlines very strong that action is a dead entity, this is the core for do I understand it?

for me this verse tries to wake me up to the fact that all my doing (everything I do) is dead and without substance of its own, no deeper meaning or nothing to gain from it, so I think in this verse it is about renouncung actions of any sort, and about surrender to the one who is the great doer...

it is about a first glimpse that what I do is just a lifeless activity, that is not myself and has nothing to do with myself....

it is like he says: please forget the actions, forget the activites you are identified with and realxe into the truth

so this verse is about the activity of the ego first and also has the hint how we should overcome this: in simply seeing who is the doer and who is not the doer...

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 12, 2008, 08:23:07 PM
Dear Srk Udai,
                   I am presenting my point of view of ths first sloka.Feel free to comment ifyou differ.It is not a problem for me.

Meaning of the first verse:Action is insentient.Action is not the ultimate reality so action per se has no ability to confer the fruit of action.
Fruit of action occurs according to the whim of the ultimate reality which is usually called God.

Comment:Bhagawan explains in the first verse itself why individual being performing the action is not the doer.So he is questioning the
idea of doership in the first verse itself.If one understands the lie of doership the spiritual journey is over because without that lie of doership
there is no existence to the thesis of ego.Action and doership are born out of self ignorance,self ignorance is insentient so all actions born out of concept of doership are insentient.Performer of the work is not the doer so the fruit of action is not in his hands.In the phenomenal reality
Volition(Ichha Sakti),knowledge to perform the action(Jnana Sakti),energy to perform the action(Kriya Sakti) belongs to the ultimate reality
but we superimpose those qualities on us resulting in doership(Kartrutva) and enjoyership(Bhoktrutva) anomalies.Action has no ability to confer the
bliss which is not of this world.So action is not the ultimate reality.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: ramanaduli on November 12, 2008, 09:14:18 PM
Dear Srkudai ji

First of all I would like to thank you very much for bringing this Upadesha saram. I do not have this book. Anyway, I have been thinking to ask this forum members to post some systems which we can observe in our day to day life and can proceed to our goal. I think my wishes are granted by Bhagavan. It is coming through you. And do not think, that you are doing arguments. This forum is open to all true seekers only. You are explaining very well. Especially I learnt more about my mind. When you and Raju ji were discussing, I learnt quite lot. You both were not arguing instead were discussing.It is like a sadas.During Adi sankara period also it was happening and even in presence of Bhagavan also it happened. When two learned will discuss others are geting moe benifited. So I welcome your views and discussions.
Thanking you,

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: ramanaduli on November 13, 2008, 12:31:40 AM
Dear Srkudai ji.

It is fine we do not have control on results. But we have to do the karma. In my last posts, I wrote we should do all spiritual aids. Are they also karmas.? If I do not have the doership sense is not it good? In the same way, doing atma vichara, we should not think the result? Please explain me

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 13, 2008, 10:45:37 AM
Dear srkudai and others,

I am giving my view on the actions per se, not the doership.

Actions can be classified into four types.  There could be other
classifications too.

Good acts produce Good results.  But here it does not stop, it
further produces anything good or bad.  It is like stereochemistry
of alkaloids and terpenes, complex organic chemical products,
which produce innumerable chains of other compounds.  Take
Ravana.  He did good acts of Siva tapas.  He got kingship of Lanka.
But this good result did not stop here.  He abducted Sita and got into
trouble.  So the results are ad naseum spreading.  Hence the good
acts, "kartur" is Jada.  Only God to decide.  It is God who decides as the Master.  One more funny example here.  Lakshmana Sarma, WHO,
who wrote his commentary on Sad Darsanam, was a naturopathist.
He prescribed 21 days fast for a young boy who was deaf.  He was
confident of curing him but the boy instead of getting cured, died
of starvation!  

Good acts bad produce bad results.  I shout at my son for smoking.
He stops smoking, but later I come to know that he smokes stealthily
without any one's knowledge.  Good acts produce bad results!

Bad acts produce good results.  The permissive sex in society caused
AIDS, and the permissiveness somewhat stopped.  Now, if medicine is found for AIDS, it may be a good result. But that medicine, would re-start the permissive sex, because of the safety it assures!

Bad acts produce bad results.  There are innumerable examples.
Not reading well, the student fails in examination.  But the same
student, will divert his attention from studies and will become a great
painter or a cinema actor!  Bill Gates was a school drop out.  Today,
he is the richest man on the globe.  Most of the Hindi and Tamil cinema
actors were school drop outs.  

So the acts and fruits are not predictable.  The concept of sin and
heavan, hell etc., are all not predictable.  Only God should decide
what should be the fruit and not actions per se.

Karmam payan taral, kartanadhu anaiayaal,
Karmam kaduvuluo undhipara, karmam Jadamathal undhipara.

(The Tamil version is for those Tamil knowing people,  who do not have the book.)

Arunachala Siva.      
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 13, 2008, 10:52:45 AM
Dear srkudai,

I gave the example of Lakshmana Sarma's naturopathy adventure.
Major Chadwick, I already wrote about it, had written an English
translation of Complete Works of Bhagavan Ramana, and was almost
ready to have it approved by Bhagavan Ramana and published.  On
the last day, he found that plans were already afoot to publish Osborne's
translation.  He simply submitted the manuscript to Bhagavan Ramana,
and continued his self enquiry, without any further emotions.  Good
acts producing bad results or no results.

Arunachala Siva.  
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 13, 2008, 11:54:14 AM
Dear all,
          When Sun shines the lotus blooms.Then who is responsible for this blooming.Blooming is happening occuring in the presence of Sun light.
So neither the Sun nor the lotus are the doers of this happening.It is a natural law that lotus blooms in Sun light.It is in the nature of things.
But mind tries to conceptualise natural events in it's language and says either Sun is the doer or lotus is the doer.If we closely scrutinise this logic
it will be found that there is no doer at all,things happen as naturally as they should be.Mind always tries to translate the things that which it
does not know into it's language of known by conceptualising.Concept has no substance in it and reality asserts itself.Bhagawan is telling
what is real in the sphere of action and the limitations of action in this first verse and the futility of doing actions thinking that they yield results
according to their expectation and wish.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 13, 2008, 12:06:40 PM
Dear Dr. Raju,

The Sun and the Lotus example is quite excellent and apt.  Events do happen, as per God's Will or plan.  Of course, we introduce the concept
of Maya for such activities.  But it is God, who gives fruits.  The
planetary movements, dasa, bhukti, gochara and other caclulations
of astrology are there who think that they can 'do'.  For those, who
trust that God 'does', these things do not matter.  Sri RK used to
say:  The almanac says that it will rain today.  But it will rain only
when God wills it.  By crushing the almanac, one does not get even
one drop of water!

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 13, 2008, 05:16:10 PM
Dear srkudai,

This 'incompleteness' makes a human being run around for 'completeness' externally.  Muriel James, a behvaioural scientist,
calls it Gestalt, lacking in completeness, in German.  This makes
one seek every thing outside, why even outside this world!  This
merry go round, is really misery go round.

About ordinary people, we know.  About the devotees and bhaktas,
suppose they do all sorts of good deeds, punyas, and then they go
to the Heavans.  What next.  Good food in the company of Indra and
Kubera, unlimited wealth and dancing girls.  After that?  Coming back
again into this world, when the play is over, to live life again!  Again,
heavan or hell and then the grand comeback!  These fruits of karmas,
contains the 'seed' for further action, further karmas, ad nauseum.
But liberation is state of merits and no merits, no rewards, no punishments, the Great Middle Path or the Great Meridian.

Once some Nadi-sastra expert came and told about Bhagavan Ramana.  It appears He had a lot of tapas in the previous birth and was meditating
on Siva.  But Brahma came first.  Brahma said:  Please come my child!
I shall give you heavans and a post of Indra.  Bhagavan had said:
Keep the heavans with you along with the post of Indra.  Then Vishnu
came: O please come my child to Vaikunta.  I shall give you Vaikunta,
where there are nectar and dancing girls, Rampa, Menaka, Urvasi and
Rati.  Bhagavan Ramana said:  O Vishnu, keep your Vaikunta and the
nectar and the dancing girls.  Please go away.  Then Siva appeared.
He did not offer anything to Bhagavan Ramana.  Bhagavan Ramana
did not even "see" Siva.  He merely "experienced" Him.  He merged with
Siva, the Effulgence, as one with out a second!

Vinaiyin Vilaivu Vilaivutru Vithaai
Vinaikadal Veezhndhidum Undhipara,
Veedu tharal ilai Undhipara!

The actions produce results but their seeds within, produce
further fruits.  They do not confer liberation, which is a state
beyond good and bad, beyond action and inaction, beyond
ignorance and knowledge.  It is beyond any duality.

srkudai, excellent, keep it up.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: ramanaduli on November 13, 2008, 06:41:00 PM
Dear Srkudai ji,

We take only spiritual aspirant here.You say, due to the incompleteness man go out for his happiness in the same way bhakta feels a vacant within him so he has a thirst and proceeding in finding God. doing japa and puja etc.etc.
Yes it is true. All jivas on this earth is doing karma whether Atma vichara or Anna vichara. due to the incompleteness.
. We came from the Purnam, and we are purnam (this was stated by Subramaniyan ji in his lost post when he told the story of making modhak in the ashram). So it is the ignorance that we feel we are not complete and we have to do karma to fill up the completeness. After realising this Thayumanavaar and others said. you need not to do. SUMMA IRU.
But if the realised person due to his destiny lives with the ajnanai he has to do all the karmas as an ordinary man does in the world. As he is a realised person, he will do the karmas for others without having the sense of doership.(like kadaveli Siddar and many did).
It is true. As you sow as you reap. If we put a seed of alphonsa we get lots of yeilds of alphonsa on the other hand if we put sour seed we yield more of sour yeild. Ajnanai thinks as he is having doership it is due to him.

As we cannot say how the creation happened, we cannot find out the cause of this MAYA. No body can say, why this creation, how the Maya happened and when the space and time started. Including Sankara everyone says, to find out the way to get out. The way also only for ajnanais.not for jnani.
As Raju ji gives the example  blooming lotus due to sun shines. Everything it HAPPENS ITSELF. ALL APPEARENCE DOES HAVE DISAPPEARENCE.
Now I understood your previous posts telling me all japas and going to temples is the pacifying the mind only.Here I want to say, I felt the incompleteness. I started. Now let it get stoped itself. As the fan how it stops after putting off the switch.As Subramaniyan ji says, looking me my children may think one day and follow little bit.

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 13, 2008, 06:55:21 PM
2nd Verse:
Meaning:-Vast ocean of actions cause us to fall from uninterrpted blissful self awareness which is our natural state to mere object knowing
consciousness and result of the action is transient and obstruct our goal to posit the mind in the Pure conscious being.

Comment:-To be in a state of bliss is inherent in every human being.When he forgets the blissful nature of his self he tries to gain happiness through
actions which cause comfort to the body and which satisfy the psychological needs of the mind.In the pursuit of happiness he indulges in actions
which may give him pleasure which is always transient and always associated with the shadow of misery.Pleasure and pain are always together
in the result of action.Any form of action involves seeming movement of attention away from the self whose nature is bliss, towards an object
which does not have the property of bliss intrinsically.So the pursuit of pleasure which is the result of self ignorance involves action which obstruct the
recognition of our natural state of blissful self awareness.Actions always leads to formation of tendencies which obstruct our natural state of self conscious being.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: ramanaduli on November 14, 2008, 08:58:22 AM
Dear sirs
Due to the Maya,
We do karmas to get happiness.  While doing action  to have happiness from the objects we are moving faraway from the self. At the same time the effort or action which is taken for atma vichara does not keeps us away from the self. This action does not give bad result and pain.But it is not easy as watching the movie other things.If this sort of action gives bad result
 people may have doubt in doing sadhana. Is not it.?
I think, here we have to remember what Bhagavan said, the stick which helps to burn the corpse, at last it also is geting burned. In the same way, doing all karmas for self realisation cannot be compared with other actions.
It may not bring 100% result in one attempt. but definitely it will bring good result at the end. Therefore this sort of actions are good.

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 14, 2008, 06:28:45 PM
I view the Verse 3 somewhat like this:

The devotee asks Bhagavan Ramana like this:

Bhagavan!  You say, that actions give results but with seeds inside,
to create further actions.  But, we are afraid of your Brahmastaram,
Who am I?  We are not able to do self enquiry, we are more at home,
with karmas, bhakti, mantra japa etc.,  Is there a way out for us?

Bhagavan says in this verse.  All right, you are not able to leave actions,
okay, you do actions, karmas, bhakti and mantra japa.  But at least,
leave the desire-ship.  Do such actions, if not without 'doership'
but atleast without 'desire-ship'.  Do karma without desires.  And
that is Niskamya Karma.  Such desireless actions, will make your
thinking and contemplation pure, and it will the show way for liberation!

Once when Bhagavan Ramana was strolling on the Hills, a devotee
came to Him and asked:  What is Nishkamya Karma?  Bhagavan Ramana did not answer.  He saw an old tree branch on the way, took it, cut
the ends with His pen-knife, scrapped the outer surface.  He then
took some herbal leaves and polished the stick.  Finally, He took another set of herbs and polished as if it were an oil polish.  The stick shone in brilliance.  After some distance, a shepherd came and asked Bhagavan Ramana: "Swami!  I have lost my stick.  Did you see it anywhere?
Bhagavan Ramana replied:  "Do not worry, take this stick!"  The
shepherd took the stick with profound gratitude and prostrated Him and left the place.  Bhagavan Ramana then told the devotee:  "This is
Nishkamya Karma!"             

Karutthanukku* akkum nitkamiya** kanmam,***
Karuthai**** thiruthi athu Undhipara,
Gadhi vazhi***** kaanpikkum Undhipara.  (Verse 3)

( * Karutthan - Godhead.  ** Nitkamiya - Nishkamya.
   *** kanmam - karmam. **** Karuthai - buddhi.
   ***** Gadhi Vazhi - Way to liberation.)

Arunachala Siva.

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: matthias on November 14, 2008, 07:09:45 PM
wonderfull story  :)

I think this verse goes even deeper into the art of renouncing world and says go deeper into my mysterym go deeper into the witness state..

and in fact not desiring is a very sublime state, then the mind is happy with the mind, nothing more is needed (I think skrudai talked about this also)...

and beeing content and not desiring anyting other then what is right now truely shows the way to liberation, and it is purifiing...because when one rests as mind in mind and is content with whatever is, then there is a feeling of oneness (or there is just one dominant feeling)...this "feeling" this happiness that is not longer bound to what happens is at hte same time renouncing the world..actions continue but the "feeling" is more in focus, reactions arise, and still mind is resting simply as mind...thought come and go, but this peace is more in the foreground....

but of course the ego returns, like usual...but now something has is purer, more transparent...not so much interesst is anymore in the actions and reactions...but a desire arises, one of the last desires (to rest in mind as mind, wihtout needing something else)...

the only problem? the desire to rest in mind as fact this desire is the greatest hurdle...

just like the quest for the self is the greatest hurdle for resting as the self

or seeking enlightment = over"seeing" enlightment

much love and may bhagavan pull our striving and desiring minds into the "mind at rest" state and then ultimatly destroy it.....

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 14, 2008, 07:36:10 PM
Meaning:-When work is done without doership or desire and fruit of work is devoted to God mind is purified to the state of suddha Manas which helps us
to get liberated from the apparent imprisonement in the ego which is a creation of thought.

Comment:- There is relation between work and the ego.Our attitude(Bhavana) towards the result of action is very important.By birth any human
being is born with tendencies and desires.When work is born out of desire there is always an eye on the fruit of work.When there is an eye on fruit
of action "doer" is born.Doer is not an existential entity.Because we do work with an eye on the fruit of work "doer appears to exist" because
of continuous flow of thought that he is the doer.Suppose if an electrical bulb is rotated circularly with certain velocity the bulb appears as a
circle of fire which in reality does not exist.Similarly continuous thought doer feels us to make us believe that it is an existential entity.
Doership is just an idea born only when work is done with desire with an eye to enjoy the fruit of action(Kartrutva,Bhoktrutva Bhranthi) so
when we devote the fruit of work to God the idea of doer and doership will not be there,and once there is no doership there is no ego.
In this way impersonal activity purifies the mind by getting rid of idea of doership which prepares the mind to reflect Pure consciousness
thus paving the way for liberation.Dispassion must be there before doing the action,during the action and after the action when fruit of action is conferred.If there is no dispassion action is contaminated with the idea of doership.So impersonal action is a great aid for liberation.We should
not renounce doing action but we should renounce the fruit of action.Lord Krishna stressed in Bhagavat Gita about this attitude towards the
work and the fruit of work.Work done with desire and doership binds and limits our consciousness(kinchigna),where as impersonal work helps
us to get liberated from the shackles of ego.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 15, 2008, 09:11:25 AM
Verse 4:
Meaning:-Rituals done by the body,repitition of a sacred word,prayer,singing in the name of God done by the voice,self-enquiry done by the mind are effective in cleansing the mind
and their effect of cleansing increases in that order i.e self-enquiry is more effective than Japa,and Japa is more effective than rituals.

Comment:-Bhagawan is telling various methods to be adopted to clean the mind and their effectiveness in this verse.

Rituals are gross form of worship done by the gross body.Ritual is not a goal in itself but an aid to spiritual progress.In devotion there is the
surrender of the ego so mental activity is reduced which finally leads to the extinction of the ego.If we stop giving energy to the ego,the ego
dies it's natural death.Rituals,repitition of a sacred word and self-enquiry stop the energy from feeding the ego,instead they divert our energy
and attention selfwards.If we stop attending to the ego by whatever be the method, ego become tenuous and finally it loses it's hold on us and later
it will die a natural death.Ego is mixture of self consciousness "I am" with adjuncts.It idenfies not only with the imaginary adjuncts like
body,thought process,intellect,memory but also the self consciousness"I am".Our aim is to separate self consciousness from mixing with the adjuncts by nullifying
the identifying agency which is ego.If there is no identity of self consciousness with the adjuncts there is no place for ego to exist.
Rituals,Japa,self-enquiry aids in nullifying the identifying agency and their effect of nullification is more in the order of rituals,Japa,self-enquiry.
In self-enquiry the ego is bypassed and our attention is payed only to the source of the ego.So in self-enquiry ego is not attended to
so it dries up because of lack of energy supply and one day it falls altogether.This is called self realisation because self consciousness disidentifies itself
from the imaginary adjuncts and self consciousness is left in it's pure form.Prayer,singing the Lord's greatness are part of action done by the voice in the service of God.So we have to do service to God with the three instuments of body,voice and mind to get rid of the identifying agency which
is tying self consciousness with the adjuncts and thus creating innumerable troubles arising out of this wrong identity.In this way our mind is cleansed
of the contaminants effectively.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 15, 2008, 10:04:05 AM
Dear Dr. Raju and srkudai,

I look at Verse 4 like this.

Why should Bhagavan Ramana says that the meditation, is superior
to the rest, and the mantra japa and poojas are superior to the next?

Take poojas.  These need, bodily strain and strain on your purse,
for which one has to seek wealth outside.  The wick, the oil, the
lamps, for burning a lamp.  Then comes flowers, fruits, leaves,
sandal paste, incense sticks, camphor, a good idol made of gold
or other metals, or a sculpture or a photograph.  Then comes, the
prasadams, cooked rice, ghee, dhal, sweet porridge, salt porridge
et all.  All these require bodily strain and wealth.  Hence these poojas
are the most inferior. 

Take mantra japas.  These needs no outside agencies, but involve
strain for the tongue, teeth and mouth and memorizing the mantras.

What about meditation?  This needs only your mind and body being
still, no activity.  No postures, asanas, no handposes, mudras.  Simply
sit and mentally do the mantras, without even moving the lips. 

Hence, Bhagavan Ramana says:  Alright you want to do prayers, without
self enquiry.  Do it mentally, meditate.

During Bhagavan Ramana's time, all these three different people
came to Him.  There were priests in Mother's Temple, doing poojas.
There were people like Kavyakanta Ganapati Muni, doing crores of
mantra japas.  There were people like Annamalai Swami, Kunju
Swami and others doing Siva Siva japa.  There was Gambhiram Sesha
Iyer doing Rama Rama Japa.  But there were also devotees like
Lakshmana Sarma, Major Chadwick and others who were doing
meditation.  This meditation could even be I am I am, this was
what Bhagavan told them.  He approved all the three types, but
stressed that the meditation, within, without even, moving the lips
and the tongue is the best.

Dhidam ithu poosai* sepaumum* dhyanamumm
Udal Vakku Ulath thozhil Undhipara
Uyar vahum onril onru Undhipara.  (Verse 4)

(* Poosai - Pujas, ** Sepa - Japa)     

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 15, 2008, 10:16:36 AM
Dear Srk Udai,
                   It is nice that you are giving practical examples relevant to context which make the understanding easier.
Today i have posted 4th verse in the morning for convenience and to attend my duties without interruption.So if i post the comments on verses
much before you kindly dont misunderstand me because you have started this thread.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 15, 2008, 10:25:21 AM
Dear Subramanian,
                         Muruganar used to say that Atma vidya is ati sulabham and is as easy as seeing hastamalaka.Bhagawan disagreed with him
saying that hastamalaka requires a hand,a seed in it,eyes to see it,mind to recognise it,so it is also one way a complicated affair where as
in self-enquiry is only "summa iru"with just paying attention without any gross or subtle doing.It is that simple he says.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 17, 2008, 01:36:40 PM
Dear Srk Udai,
                   I am fully aware that body age is not related to spiritual understanding it is quite surprising that a 30yr old young person like you is endowed
with so much understanding and i am also surprised to see people vegetating in Tiruvannamalai for the past thity years without any understanding whatsoever,leading a mechanical life there and highly egoistic because of the qualification of their just staying at Tiruvannamalai instead of their
native place.You have a great future because your present is great.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 17, 2008, 03:16:17 PM
Dear srkudai, Dr. Raju,

I am also of the same view as Dr. Raju, with srkudai.  Not all the
female flowers become unripe fruits and not all the unripe fruits
become ripe fruits.  Each one has to work out in the way of his/her
prarabdha.  Not all the priests in Siva temples, become Manikkavachagar!

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 18, 2008, 09:28:52 AM
The poojas, need outside objects, purity of the body and a purse
to take up expenses for flowers, fruits, betel leaves, betel nuts,
coconuts, an idol or a  salagrama etc., etc.,  It involves bodily
activities, kara, nyasa etc., etc., Mantra japa also requires movement
of lips, teeth and tongue and a Guru outside, to teach you the mantras.
But meditation on the Self does not require anything, outside in the
forms of various objects, a Guru, bodily movements etc., That is why
this is the greatest.  Bhagavan Ramana when He was in Patala Linga
did not even have a bath for several days!  His body was full of dirt
and smelling.  He did not even have a koupina sometimes!  But He
was in the Self.

This reminds me of a story about a boss of mine.  He and his wife
planned to distribute 1 lakh turmeric fingers to various married brahmin
ladies and brahmin unmarried girls.  He invited me and my wife.  We
went to his house.  In the hall, I could smell the fragrance of turmeric.
I looked out and there were bags and bags of turmeric fingers, bales
and bales of betel leaves and bags of betel nuts and baskets of flowers.
When I saw his face, that boss was grinning.  He said:  "Yes, I got
these items from a contractor, to whom I give orders of business!"
I became indignant.  Here is a man, who became corrupt, for doing
this special turmeric pooja!  I told my wife, when we returned home,
"give these turmeric fingers to the poor people, do not use them
yourself.  These are having stains of corruption."  As Shakespeare,
said in Hamlet, : Not all the poppy, nor mandragora nor all the drowsy
suyrups of Arabia, shall ever wash the blood stains of the murderer!"

Why such poojas and acquire further sins in life?   Meditate and stay
with the Self!

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 18, 2008, 04:19:11 PM
Dear Srk udai,
                   This is what is called Sada Apramada and is very important for spiritual progress.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 18, 2008, 05:13:12 PM
Dear Srk Udai,
                   Yes,i met Sri Swami Suddhananda in BVRM during his stay there.I came to the college along with him and Sri Jagannadha Rao garu.
I spent several hours continuously with swamiji and he asked me to stay in his ashram at Tiruvannamalai with family but i declined the offer.
I will let you know more about him in a personal message.He is well read,knowledgeable,knows the intricacies of self-enquiry than many
Ramana devotees and he wrote a book on self-enquiry in Tamil which many say is excellent,knows the teaching techniques well.
I never visited his ashram in chennai but Sri Jagannadha Rao told me that it is one of the well maintained and beautiful ashram.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: ramanaduli on November 18, 2008, 08:25:12 PM
Der Srkudai ji

Buddhist monks bow to show their respect towards to their fellow monks. In general people do namasthye. They forld their hands keeping right to their chest. I am told, we have to do
namaste keeping folded hands just right to our chest to show respect to all friends. Whereas for Guru like teachers we have to raise our hands upto our forehead. And in front of God
we should raise  our hands above our head. I think Subramaniyan ji can explain about this.

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 18, 2008, 09:42:37 PM
Upadesa saram verse 5:

Meaning:-To serve the world looked upon as the manifestation of the Lord,is to offer worship to the Lord of eight fold forms.

Comment:-Lord is omnicient so he pervades every atom of his creation.Creation is the adjunct of Lord i.e Eswara.Earth,water,fire,air,ether,
Sun,Moon and all living beings are eight fold manifestation of the Lord.Space happens due to Pancha Bhutas(Five fundamental elements of creation)
and Time happens due to the presence of Sun and the Moon.All Jivas function in the perview of time and space.They have no independent existence beyond time and space.So worship of these eight fold forms regarded all as forms of his,is perfect worship of Lord.This type of worship is
without doership and there is surrender in it,so it purifies the mind and paves the way for self realisation.So when we see the world with this Bhavana we will
feel that we are seeing and serving the Lord.Such type of devotion is called Para Bhakti.Sri Rama Krishna Parama Hamsa used to see Mother Kali
in everything.For saint Nami Nandi Adigal every one in Tiruvur used to appear as Siva to him.This is Para Bhakti.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 19, 2008, 08:35:08 AM
Upadesa Saram Verse 6:

Meaning:-Better than the best hymns of devotional praise is the repetitive uttering of sacred names in which uttering with low voice(upamsu japa) is better than uttering louder(uchha japa),but best of all is the meditation in the mind(mental japa).

Comment:- Describing the greatness of Lord in detail is the best devotional praise.It is better for japa to be done in low voice than loud voice.

The aim of japa is to hold on to a single thought thus excluding all other thoughts.As japa progresses mind will be subdued and mind becomes
one pointed(Ekagra chitta) and to such a mind, silence of the self conscious being is revealed which is usually called self knowledge.
Japa withdraws our attention from the nonself and withdrawing of attention from nonself amounts to attending to the self conscious being.
Once we learn this skill of abiding and holding on to Pure consciousness spiritual progress becomes easy and effortles.Japa should be done with passionate devotion to the Truth but not mechanically.Japa should be done with total self surrender(Poorna saranagathi) to have good results.Once we exclude attending to nonself
what remains is only the "self" and to rest in and as self is the aim of all spiritual desciplines.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 19, 2008, 01:11:07 PM
For verse 4 of Upadesa Saram, the apparent meaning is that you
pray to the five elements, sun, moon and individual souls as the
forms of God.  Arthur Osborne has also translated the same way,
and there is no doubt about this.  But the word, 'En' which is used
in Tamil, has got two meanings.  One is 'eight' and the other is
'one who thinks'.  The word 'En' is pronounced as, in computer
language, with 'n' sounding as 'EN'.  This gives the meaning that
whatever form, you think and see before you, you consider it as
the form of God!  Of course, all these forms are on the earth.

Once Bhagavan Ramana and a few others were strolling on the Hills.
One lady was plucking all the bilva leaves on the trees on the way
and also plucking on the flowers that she could see.  Bhagavan
Ramana told her:  "Why you cannot leave these leaves and the flowers
on the trees?  Are they are not more beautiful with the trees?  Can't
you worship them, in the trees?  The Scriputres say that one should
only do pooja with flowers and leaves that have fallen on their own,
even if these are old."  The lady understood but meekly replied:
"Bhagavan!  I having taken a vow to do pooja with a lakh of bilwa
leaves and flowers. That is why...."   Bhagavan Ramana said: "Oh!
You are praying to Siva with a lakh of flowers and leaves?  Why not
you do pooja by pinching your body a lakh of times.  Siva would prefer
it better than doing pooja with leaves and flowers!"

One another story is:  Once there were a lot of bugs on the sofa, but
Bhagavan Ramana was tolerating their bites, without any murmur.
The attendants had been seeing these bugs.  At that time, DDT, was
just then discovered.  When Bhagavan Ramana went out for the stroll,
they sprayed the liquid and killed all the bugs, changed the sheets and
kept the sofa neat.  On return, Bhagavan Ramana smelt the chemical
and expressed with deep anguish:  O someone had been waiting for me
to leave the sofa, and played this dirty trick.

En uru yavaiyum, irai uru yamena,
Enni vazhipadal undhi para,
Isan nal poojanai undhi para!  (Verse 5)

(En - all that you see.  Enni - thinking or considering.)

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 19, 2008, 01:20:30 PM
To add to Dr. Raju,

In prayer,  it is better to chant the names and do the japa, within
the mouth, and it is called mantra dhyanam.  Better the low voiced
than the loud.  But the best is meditation within the mind.

Better than hymns of praise,
Is repetition of the name,
Better low-voiced than loud,
But best of all,
Is meditation in the mind.  

Once a queen was doing a lot of mantra japa but the king was
busy with his royal work.  However, he found that his wife is
advancing in spiritual field than he, who is spending his time
in the worldly work of a king.  So, he decided to do mantra japa
at night while sleeping.  Since sounds will distrub his wife, he
wanted to do it within the mouth and in due course, it became
a meditation in mind.  One early morning, the queen found her
husband mumbling something and she asked for the reason.  The
king did not want to reply but on persistence from the wife, he
told the truth.  The queen became very happy and said he can
continue this meditation and she would look after the work relating
to the king.  The king went to the forest and continued his practice.

A story from Yoga Vasishta as told by Bhagavan Ramana.

Arunachala Siva.  
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 19, 2008, 01:23:53 PM
Verse 6:

I forgot the Tamil version.  Here it is:

Vazhutthalil vaikkucha vaikut japathil,
Vizhuppa manathu undhi para,
Vilambum dhyanam idhu undhi para.  (Verse 7)

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 19, 2008, 05:32:39 PM
Upadesa Saram: verse 7

Meaning:-Like an unbroken flow of oil or a stream of water,continuous meditation is better than which is interrupted.

Comment:- Deliberate meditation is always interruted by thought disturbance due to the influence of innate tendencies.Mind is commonly
interested in indulging in sense enjoyment and such a mind has to be prepared to be one pointed through rituals,Japa,meditation and enquiry.
Then mind is gradually emptied of it's contents and such a mind has the capacity to meditate without interruption and it's attention moves selfwards
without any break.Continuous selfward flow of mind is easy for those who withdraw their attention from  nonself and abide in self and hold on to it without any separative feeling.
Such a mind is called Atmakara or Brahmakara vritti.This is the goal of all spiritual desciplines.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 20, 2008, 10:22:55 AM
This thyladhara is called the silent meditation, the brahamakara vritti.
Like til oil flowing without noise, without splashing, this flows.

This is very difficult.  Poeple have complained to Bhagavan Ramana that
they are not able to do meditation and office work simultaneously.
When one is attended, the other stops.  Constant practice helps one
to do meditation in work.  There, the mind as oil flowing does the work!
It is brahmakara vritti which is doing the work.

Once Muruganar was asked to do pooja in Mathrubhutesvara Temple.
He had to chant mantras or Tamil song, ring the bell from the left hand
and raise the arti with the right hand.  He just stayed looking at the
Siva Linga, chanting mantras, but the bell could not rung and the
arti could not raise the arti.  When he rang the bell, he had to stop
the other two activities.  When the arti was raised, the remaining two
could not be proceeded with.  Bhagavan Ramana smiled at him and said:
Why are you not able to do all the three?  He then showed how these
should be done!

Again, once Muruganar was with Bhagavan Ramana, while the latter
was boiling a thyla on a big vessel near the cowshed.  The thyla was
prepared for bath or as an oil for massaging.  When the boiling was
over, Bhagavan Ramana put out the fire and asked Muruganar to
transfer the oil from the vessel to smaller bottles with a ladle.  Muruganar
was looking at Bhagavan Ramana and was transferring the oil.  He
kept on pouring the oil into the bottles.  He was doing continually,
that the oil overflowed and fell on the ground!  Without knowing that,
Muruganar was looking at Bhagavan Ramana.  A good amount of oil
was already on the ground. Bhagavan Ramana as usual smiled at him
and said:  What is that you are doing?  The oil is spreading on the floor!

The story does not end here.  Bhagavan Ramana then said:  Take the
oil and apply on your head, do not waste it.  Muruganar was still looking
at Bhagavan Ramana and kept on rubbing the oil from the floor and
applying it on his head.  Soon, he was found that he was applying even
mud on his head.  Again, Bhagavan Ramana said:  You cannot do two
things simultaneously.  Alright, now go and have a bath and remove
both the oil and the mud!   
Verse   7: in Tamil.

Vittu karuthalin* naru nar nei veezchi** pol,
Vittidathu unnale*** undhi para,
visedam**** am munnave undhipara!

(*Vittu karuthalin - intermittant meditation.
** naru nar nei veezchi - the continuous meditation, like the nice smelling oil.
*** vittidathu unnale - continuous meditation. 

**** visedam - Vishesham - better, special.

Arunachala Siva.                                                           
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 20, 2008, 12:41:50 PM
Dear Subramanian,
                         Nice story.As the mental japa progresses japa happens by itself as an undercurrent even when we are involved in work also.
It is not a hindrance to work.The whole thought matter gets concentrated only in that sacred word uttered mentally in japa.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: matthias on November 20, 2008, 01:29:28 PM
I did the om nama shivaya mantra for two or three days, what happens is that a deep peace is coming over the mind (of course the thougt wander from time to time but it is very easy to get them back to the mantra, I did also during work))....and also from time to times the things you look at are repeating the mantra...a tree is ina  way the mantram, also the identification with the mantra vanishes and it is selfrepeating (all this happened for just some seconds)---

but anyway if you stop the practice, all is it is more or less worthless...

My painting teacher was a disciple of swami muktananda (Siddha yoga) and afterwards traveled india naked with some sadhus for 2 years or something...

he told me lots of crazy stories about this time...and in his book "drinking lightning" art and transformation-- he also discribes the mantra yoga in a similar way, but of course guided by a master and for several month....

he said that after some time the mantra just contuinued without effort, the whole creation vibrated in the sound of the mantra..etc

so similar but of much greater effect..
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 20, 2008, 01:46:20 PM
Dear Matthias,

I am glad to know about japa and the effects and the peace that
passeth understanding.  Please continue to do this.  This is a case
of energy solidifying into matter.  This is not Siddhi.  It is much more
sublime, because you only see the energy getting transformed into
matter and it is not for outsider's wonderment.  Saint Tyagraja who
was a great Rama devotee, is said to have chanted Rama japa,
960 million times and Lord Rama appeared before him?  How come?
The vibrations, which are magnetic energy solidified into a Form, matter.
This is simply Einstein's relativity, and it is true and nothing but true.
Keep it up and make it everyday.  If thoughts disturb you, it does not
matter.  Pursue the mantra.

The Namasivaya becomes a continual monotone behind your activity.  I chant Arunachala Siva, during the day and a  number of times, in bed, before falling asleep.  Whenever I get up after midnight for drinking water,
the mantra continues, from within.  When I get up again in the morning,
it continues.  It is like flow of an oil.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 20, 2008, 03:37:59 PM
Dear srkudai,

This was heatedly discussed in the blog of David Godman.  He agreed
that there could be Visions which are different from feverish imaginations.
Sankara "seeing" the Chandala, as Siva in Kasi (the famous Manisha
Panchakam), many Siva saints "seeing" Siva on the bull with Uma,
Tyagaraja "seeing" Sri Rama, after 960 million Rama Japa and Sankarananda Bharati "seeing" Skanda as Ramana, are Visions.  My
grandfather in his death bed,  "saw" Yama sitting on the alarm clock was definitely a feverish imagination.  Kavyakanta Ganapati Sastri had vision of Bhagavan Ramana as Skanda.  But David does not agree that Bhagavan Ramana as the avatara of Kumarila Bhatta and Jnana Sambandha.  He
said that both Sankara and Kumarila Bhatta and Jnana Sambandha lived
as contemporaries, with a few years' of age difference, and hence Bhagavan Ramana could not be an avatara of both Kumarila Bhatta
and Jnana Sambandha.  The ages of these saints have not been conclusively proved, so this is an open debate.  But  I agreed
to both the Visions and the avatara conclusions.  When Sankara
went to Tiruvidaimaruthur, a small town near Swamimalai, the Saiva
Siddhantis said that only Siva is Brahman and the Saiva Siddhanta alone
is the correct philosophy.  Sankara said that he did not have any quarrel
in calling Siva as Brahman, but Advaita is the only Truth.  They all
went to the Siva temple in that town, where Siva is called Madharjuna,
the Lord of the jasmine flowers.  Sankara recited Vivekachoodamani
and finally proclaimed:  Advaitam Paramam Satyam, three times. A hand
appeared from Siva Linga, and said, : Yes. Advaitam  Paramam Satyam.

Even this story for that matter, could be a feverish imgaination.  But
one has to accept both the views.  But Visions and feverish imaginations
both happen to the person concerned , and not to others.  I do not know whether the Saiva Siddhantis could "see" Siva's hand, but they heard the
reverbrations: Advaitam Paramam Satyam.  But again, as in any Indian
classical stories, there is no proof of records fixing the age of such happenings.  That is why, there is such a big fight on Ramar Sethu,
the Adam's Bridge issue.  Who can say that Kalidasa saw Ujjain
Mahakali?  We have only his Shyamala Dhandakam.  Both the views
have to be accepted till one of the two things or both are proved.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: ramanaduli on November 20, 2008, 07:51:53 PM
Dear sir,

They say YET BHAVAM TAT BHAVATHI. Chanting japa helps for the wavering mind lot.It brings Ekargraha chitta. With what kind of bhava if you Repeat the mantra brings lots of miracles. True devotee never asks anything
but the almighty starts playing and shows lots of proves in front of non believer of God. Miracles take place.In fact after the miracles only I started the topic "Miracle". Lots of incidents happened in my life. I do nt know others. Sometimes, while chanting japa itself stops without any intention. I feel blank. no body movement but I aware what is happening around me.
But it does not stay for long time. Now a days I take this like this also mind's play after knowing the pacifying the mind. Still I continue.


Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 21, 2008, 02:51:18 PM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 8

Meaning:- Meditation on the identity of Individual (jiva) and the Lord (Eswara),"I am He" is more purifying than meditation which assumes a difference between them.

Comment:- Ego is basically finite consciousness.So ego is an affirmation of separateness.Separative feeling is a mirage created by the ego.

The idea of separative feeling is apparent only in the dimension of time and space.The idea of separativeness veils the truth.

Separative feeling is a hindrance to spiritual emancipation.Ego takes sheltor in the false idea of being the body and it feels separate from

Godliness by contrasting itself with other forms of life.Ego being finite can know only finite things.Ego believe that God and the world to be separate

 from itself.It reduces God to something being finite.Anything that is separate from anything else is limited and thus necessarily finite.

So long as we experience ourselves as a limited individual we feel God is a being who is distinct and separate from us.We limit the infinity of God.

If we know or experience God as anything other than our own essential self,we are not experiencing him "as he really is" but only as mind made

vision (Manomayamam katchi).Though God is visible when we worship him with a separative feeling and there is cleansing and purification of the

mind of it's desire and attachment to worldly pleasures,there is still mistaken experience that we are finite and we are separate from God.

Trotapuri removed this type of mistaken experince of Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa by conferring him nondual experience of the self.

The only way to experience the self is by being it.Being as we are is th only means by which we can experince the absolute reality "as it is".

So meditating without separative feeling with strong conviction of "I am He" is superior to meditating with assumption that God is sepate from us.

With this type meditation of identity of individual (jiva) and the Lord (Eswara) there is disintegration of the ego ending in realizing the Truth.

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 21, 2008, 03:13:53 PM
Meditating on the Godhead, as I am He, is the best meditation,
since it does not seek separateness as Him outside you.  Keeping
Him outside your own Self is duality and is constrained by time
and space.  As Dr. Raju said, it is the mischief of the ego.  Bhagavan
Ramana uses the Sanskrit words, 'Anya bhava' and 'A-nanya bhava'
in the Tamil verse also.

Once Krishnapremi came to see Bhagavan Ramana and Bhagavan
looked at him intently for some minutes, since the former was already
an advanced soul with visions of Krishna.  But Krishnapremi was not
impressed by Bhagavan Ramana's ways of devotion to the Self within
or surrender to the Self within.  He excused saying that he would go
to the Hills and went there and visited some places and started meditating
on Krishna.  Later he returned to the Asram and proudly informed
Bhagavan Ramana that he was playing with Krishna!  Bhagavan Ramana
said:  "Oh, it is good, but why not you see Krishna within you and instead
of playing around with Krishna outside you in the slopes of the Hills?
You, visishtadvatins are telling that Sarvam Vasudevam mayam Jagat,
but you are seeing Krishna only in front of you.  If you contemplate on
him within, then the whole world, including the Hills and the slopes,
birds and squirrels would appear as Vasudeva!"  Krishnapremi agreed
to this and found that the sentence, Sarvam Vasudevam mayam Jagat,
had been understood by him correctly only on that day."  Why Krishna
should be confined to a form, in front of you only?  Why not within
Heart, whereafter, every living and nonliving being would appear as

Later, Krishnapremi went with Bhagavan and others for a stroll on the
Hills.  He went into deep contemplation on Krishna.  Bhagavan Ramana
left him undisturbed and returned to the Asram.  It was soon lunch time.
Krishnapremi was not to be seen.  Bhagavan Ramana sent Visvantha
Swami. The latter went to Krishnapremi and said:  "You are still sitting
here.  Krishna had gone to Brindavan and is waiting for lunch.  Why don't
you rush with me and join him?  Krishnapremi once again understood
the 'ananya bhava' and returned to the Asram to sit with Bhagavan
Ramana for lunch!

Verse 8, in Tamil reads:

Aniya bhavathin Avan Aham aahum,
Ananiya bhavame Undhi Para,
Anaithinum, Uttamam Undhi Para.

(Aniya - Anya.  Avan Aham aahum - Keeping Him within.
Ananiya - Ananya.  Anaithinum Uttamam - The best of all
meditation, contemplation.)     

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 21, 2008, 04:33:13 PM
Dear Subramanian,
                         Bhagawan gave darshan to Papaji in Punjab but Papaji could not recognise him as Bhagawan.Once Papaji came to Chennai on
official government duty and decided to have darshan of Bhagawan.In Chennai he had  darshan of Lord Rama along with Sitadevi and Lakshmana.
Papaji felt extremely happy.Papaji is a Krishna Bhakta and used to play with him and talk to him whenever he wished.He had  darshan of Bhagawan
but not much impressed by him.So he went to a place near Adi Annamalai temple and meditated on Krishna and krishna appeared before him.
He told the same thing to Bhagawan and Bhagawan asked him saying "Do you want a God who occassionally visits you causing pleasure to you
or do you opt for self which is always with you and is of the nature of blissful self conscious being.Papaji thought for sometime and understood
the import of what Bhagawan is saying and he met Bhagawan in the afternoon when nobody is there and no words passed between them
and Papaji got realisation in few minutes.There after Papaji spread the words of Bhagawan and later he became world famous teacher.
He is the nephew of Swami Ram Thirtha.

2)Dear Srk Udai,
 By nondual experience i mean Advaita Siddhi which implies we are already the God and we are one with him even when we think that we are separate from him.
Some words you should not take them literally but understand the heart and meaning behind them according to the context in which they are used.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 21, 2008, 04:51:26 PM
Dear Dr. Raju,

Yes.  I remember the story of Papaji and I think I wrote it under
Reflections of the Golden Eyes, the series which have now been pruned.
Bhagavan Ramana said the same thing, to all dual experiencers. 

Dear srkudai,

The non-ego experience is the Pure Experience, and Bhagavan
Ramana called it as Wakeless Wakefulness, Dreamless Dream and
Sleepless Sleep and flabbergasted the devotees in the Hall.  All
our other experiences that we have in the world, even though the
Self is always within us, are experiences marred by the ego. 

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 21, 2008, 08:53:25 PM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 9

Meaning:- By the power of meditation,devoid of thoughts one is etablished in true being,and this is supreme devotion.

Comment:- The "I" thought (I-am-the-body-idea) arises from the spiritual heart centre,raises to the brain and identifies with the body

and imagines itself to be the body."I-am-the-body" is the primal imagination that thinks all other thoughts.So if we want to be free of thoughts

we must be free from "I-am-the-body-idea".The "I" thought creates an illusion that there is a mind or individual self which inhabits the body

and directs all thoughts and actions.The "I" thought accomplishes this by identifying itself with all thoughts and perceptions of the mind.

The idea that one is an individual person is generated and sustained by "I" thought and by it's habit of constantly attaching itself to all the

thoughts that arise.If one can break the connection between"I" thought and the thoughts it identifies with them through self-enquiry

the "I"thought is deprived of all the thoughts and perceptions that it normally identifies with,then the "I" thought itself will subside and

finally disappear.This can be done by holding on to "I" thought and excluding all other thoughts.If one can keep attention on the inner feeling of "I"

we can hold on to "I" thought,then it will start to subside into the spiritual heart centre.Through self-enquiry when we free our mind of all thoughts

except the "I" thought,the magnetic power of self pulls the "I" thought back into the heart centre culminating in the collapse of thought process

and eventually the "I" thought is destroyed completely and never raises again.When this happens the idea of individual self is destroyed,only self remains.

This is Bhava sunya sadbhava susthiti.This is supreme devotion says Bhagawan.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: matthias on November 21, 2008, 11:26:07 PM
verse 9

(my girl took my upadesa saram with her, so I have to use the english version of dr raju)

I just can talk out of what I experienced, so this is not a comment.....

from time to time, when my mind is calm and clear, cool and resting then a single word or a single idea can be the last for some time....then when the mind stops, light is percieved, (still a dual notion, I never was the light, I always percieved it insight of me...still a subtile dualism)..

the light is growing with the silence, the more complete the silence is the more light is is the abode of peace and happiness,but it cannot be the self, but at least a glimpse, a deeper look into the sublime beauty and peacefull nature of things....

these expereinces are the deepest I ever had, I never poceeded further then this...and it is impossible to stay there long for me...
Iam not totaly sure what it means, but anyway it is good and will have any sort of benefit

sometimes this light penetrates 10 or 20 minutes and then ceases, just an expereince but indeed a very uplifting one


in addition

like Subramanian recommended I started the mantra meditation again, I use this time shivoham bhavana, as it is (as mentioned in verse eight) a better meditation, I sit first and do simply breathing in and out, counting the breath 1,2,3,4 etc.. and I relaxe body and then mind...when Iam calm I start with the mantra....

someitmes I come very close to this sublime state, and then the mantra also gets charged, and when I formulate it clearly it takes me  veryclose to silence and light..just repeating the two words....I think this could be very helpful for centralizing and "remembering"...

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 22, 2008, 10:48:40 AM
Dear Matthias,

Your meditation of Sivoham or Siva-bhava is good since you are speaking
about good results.  It suits you.  You may continue.  Regarding the
"beauty of nature and things",  you perceive that due to the Self
within, which is light.  The light is "experienced" and not "perceived."
This is also good.

Dear All,

This is what is explained further in Verse 9.  The Sad-bhava, with its strength, takes one to the Isa-bhava, or Parabhakti.  This is what Sri Ramakrishna also used to describe.  This Sad-bhava or Isa-bhava which is the essence of Parabhakti gives one, the powers of perceiving everything as Isvara, or forms of Isvara.  Sri Dakshinamoorthy Stotram calls it as
Isvaratvam, in the last verse.

Once when Vilacheri Ranga Iyer, who was a class mate of Bhagavan
Ramana, in school in Tiruchuzhi and also in Madurai, came to see
Bhagavan Ramana.  He was already married and having children and
he did not have a suitable joy to earn income for family.  He went for
interviews in Madras, a couple of times, but without success. One day,
when he was sleeping outside the Cave, Bhagavan Ramana asked him
to get up around 3 am for swimming and bathing in the adjoining tank
on the Hills.  He rose and Bhagavan Ramana looked at him intently
for a while.  Suddenly, Iyer started seeing, the Cave, the things inside
the Cave, the Hills, the trees and plants as Bhagavan Ramana.  Everywhere, Bhagavan Ramana's smiling face appeared.  This lasted
for a few minutes.  This is the glimpse of Isvaratvam, or Being Siva,
after intense bhava balam or bhava phalam. coming out of Para bhakti.

Verse 9: (in Tamil)

Bhava balathinal bhavanateeta Sad
Bhavathu iruthale Undhipara,
Para-bhakti tattvam Undhipara!

Arthur Osborne's translation reads:

Abidance in Pure Being,
Transcending thought through love intense,
Is the very essence,
Of Supreme Devotion.

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: ramanaduli on November 22, 2008, 05:13:41 PM
Dear Sirs,

In verse 8 it is said that being with God within is the best meditaton without any separatness. But in Bhakti marga, most of the saints see them, they are separated. They beg for God's
darshan, want him to see and talk. Does it not meditation? In ashtapathi, Jayadeva sings as Krishna is outside. I think, some bhakta want Him to worship in that way and have satisfaction
by singing His glory.  But in Gopika Geetham, first Gopis feel His separateness< they search and cry at last they find HIM in their heart. Due to their ego they cannot find but when they
left their ego they find Krishna in their heart as said in the 8 verse.

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 23, 2008, 11:32:36 AM
Dear srkudai,

For the sincere seekers, which most of us are, the Self in the Heart
Centre, is experienced. So there is an Experiencer, the individual
soul and the experience, the Self.  When  self enquiry is complete,
then the individual soul merges into the Self, and it is Self realization.
Thereafter, there is no experiencer, the individual soul and there is
only the Experience, the Self. 

When some one wanted to know from Bhagavan Ramana, "What is
the difference between jnani and ajnani, Bhagavan Ramana replied
humourously, that there is no jnani or ajnani and there is only

Jnani  - the Experienced.
Ajnani - the Experiencer. (of worldly pleasures and then on
                                     maturity, the Self within.)
Jnanam - the Experience!

Again, when someone asked  how Jnani can explain his Experience,
Bhagavan Ramana said:

The Jnani cannot explain anthing to anyone.  Because there is nothing
apart from him!

The Ajnani cannot understand because he does not have experience
             to understand.

Hence there is only Jnanam and one should understand it within.

Saint Tayumanavar has also sung:

If it becomes That, what can it say, because it is only That!

(Adhvanal, adhuvahum, adhu enna sollum?)

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 23, 2008, 12:37:02 PM
Dear Srk Udai,
                   As you have rightly pointed out the crux of whole problem lies in mistaking "I" thought as real self.Adjuncts or actions per se
are neither good nor bad.They are valuable tools given to us by the existence but when we use them with the prevailing wrong identity
their function becomes abnormal because "I" thought connects to every thought and perception happening in the mind and contaminates
them causing havoc in daily life which is reflected physically also in the society and with close scrutiny we can find that this wrong identity
is the basic problem of humanity and self-enquiry is the solution for it.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 23, 2008, 01:47:48 PM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 10

Meaning:- Having subsided in the place of rising in one's own source of real self is an action (karma) without desire,Bhakti (devotion),that is Yoga (union

with God), Jnana (true knowledge).

Comment:- A conscious particle from the spiritual heart enters the brain and when it identifies with the body it becomes the "I "thought

and creates the illusion of individual self which inhabits the body and identifies itself with all thoughts and perceptions.Upadesa literally means

bringing back a thing to it's place of origin or source.So the goal of self-enquiry is to bring back this conscious particle which straying with the help of adjuncts in the

nonself  to it's source which is spiritual heart.Self-Enquiry reverses the process of"I" thought getting identified with

thoughts and perceptions.If one can break the connection between  "I" thought and thoughts and perceptions it identifies with, then the

"I" thought itself will subside and finally disappear.This can be done by holding on to "I" thought i.e inner feeling of "I" or "I am" and excluding

all other thoughts.If one can keep attention to the inner feeling of "I" then this conscious particle dissociates from the adjuncts.Then the power

of self pulls the "I" thought back into the heart centre and eventually destroys it so completely that it never raises again.When this happens the

concept of individual self is destroyed once and forever,only self remains.Thus mind remains subsided in the source of real self from which it has

risen takes the form of Atmakara Vritti and that is the culminating point of Karma Yoga (the path of desireless action),Bhakti Yoga (The path of devotion)

Raja Yoga with the methods of mind control and the Jnana Yoga (the path of knowledge through self-enquiry,atma vichara).
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 23, 2008, 03:38:31 PM
Summary of first ten verses of Upadesa Saram:-

Bhagawan's method of destroying the concept of individual self which is usually called as manonasa or destuction of the mind is scientific

and unlike in other methods which are dependent on thought which itself is product of self ignorance, uses awareness in bringing back

the conscious particle that is apparently imprisoned in ego and it's tendencies, to it's source of spiritual heart and make it to permanently

abide there so that it never rises as ego again.In this way his approach to Truth is nontraditional and the outlook is above beyond all religions

and it is relevant to entire humanity irrespective of their religious background.What is required here is intense and passionate longing

for Truth and it will lead us to the Truth if we do self-enquiry with such a passion as a drowning man struggles for air.However even

though his approach is nontraditional, he never condemned tradition and instead made best use of it by utilising it for the preparation

of the mind for making it fit to do self-enquiry.In this endeavour he integrated Karma,Bhakti,Raja and Jnana yogas.In the first ten verses of

Upadesa Saram he described in detail how Karma Yoga and Bhakti Yoga aid in Self-abidance.

Every human being is born with self-ignorance.So he has defects (doshas) of 1) doership which results in action with desire with eye on the fruit of

desire(sakama karma) 2)vibhakti (nondevotion to his real self i.e God) 3)Viyoga (the feeling of separation from the rest other than his body-mind

complex and so he feels that the world is separate and contrary to him and he feels that God is apart from him.4)Ignorance (not knowing the

nature of his self.Because i am confining myself to summarise first 10 verses i will elaborate only on kama yoga and Bhakti yoga with relevance to Bhagawan's

teaching in Upadesa Saram.All these defects occur to "I" thought only.

Karma Yoga to relieve the dosha of sakama karma:- In sakama karma there is the sense of doership with an eye on the fruit of action.

Sakama karma is an attempt to gain happiness in nonself,so sakama karma is born out of self-ignorance.Self-ignorance is insentient so sakama  karma is

insentient,jada and so it has no ability to direct or confer the fruit of action.The performer of the work is not the doer and so fruit of action

is not in his hands.Fruit of action perishes by enjoying it as pleasure or pain.But having perished thus the fruit of that action will still remain in the seed

form as liking to do such an action again and this is called tendency.So tendencies result from action with doership which encourages us for further

action thus throwing us into the sea of actions which obstructs our spiritual goal and we are lost in the sea of actions.So sakama karma is Patana

 karanam and Gati nirodhakam.So as an antidote to dosha of sakama karma Bhagawan is advising us not indulge in action and to do work expected

from you without any desire,without eye on fruit of action,without doership,to offer the fruit of action to God with surrender so that sense of

doership is nullified.This type of nishkama karma purifies the mind and it is an aid to keep the mind subsided in it's source.

Bhakti yoga:- Average human being is more devoted to the whims and fancies of his ego and tendencies and usually prays to God

to fulfil them rather than to his true self because he is self-ignorant.Even sakama puja,japa,dhyana does not purify the mind because the ego

is strengthened in these in the name of devotion.Puja,japa,dhyana are actions done by organs of body,speech,mind and they should be

done without sense of doership or desire,expectation,goal if the mind were to be purified.So devotion must also be desireless(nishkama)

so that mind is purified.If this is done with ananya bhava (I am he) the meditator himself becomes nonexistent by merging in the state of being

It is beyond the comprehension of thought and thought is not there in that state and is called Bhavanatita sadbhava susthiti.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 23, 2008, 03:42:14 PM
Dear Dr. Raju and others,

Excellent explanation. Verse 10 of Upadesa Saram is the epitome of
entire Upadesa Saram.

1. It is like Mount Everest, when all the verses are like different
peaks of Himalayas, like Annapoorna, Ganjanjanga and K2.  It is
Mount Everest, the tallest and the most sublime.

2. This is the essence of entire Ramana Way, and all His works
are only commentary on it.

3. It is the womb from where the Ulladu Narpadu, the Reality on 40
verses, Sad Darsanam took birth.

4. It is like the 3rd Law of Thermodyanamics, where which the entire
Newtonian Physics was further developed.

5. It is like the general theory of realativity, of Einstein, from which
the bomb of Hiroshima, the entire Atma Jnana, exploded.

6. One day, a devout seeker would write a 300 page book on this verse.
There is a book by a Tamil Vidwan who wrote a full book on the first
two line verse of Tirukural of Tiruvalluvar.  One great Sivaraja Yogi,
Mahavidwan Dhandapani Desikar of Tiruneveli, wrote a 2000 page
book on the 566 verses of Tiruvachakam.

7.  Like Bradley wrote on Shakespearian tragedies, one day such
a book will come and it shall cover the entire path of Bhagavan Ramana.  We should ever, ever thank Poet Muruganar for this phenomenon.  

7. It is like Maandukya Upanishad, just 12 verses, and Sri Sankara
elaborated Vivekachoodamani of 600 verses.  Vyasa wrote Brahma
Sutram from out of that Upanishad.

8. I believe that Who am I? and this verse of Upadesa Saram are
sufficient for the seekers.  

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 23, 2008, 04:02:34 PM
Verse 10 continues....

Several types of persons came to Bhagavan Ramana.  Pure "karma
margis" came to Him. Annamalai Swami, Kunju Swami, several
kitchen assistants, Mudaliar Patti.  They all found that their karmas
by themselves would not lead to Atma Jnana.  But Bhagavan Ramana
corrected their paths, once they had attained the maturity to pursue
self enquiry.

Several "bhakti margis", devotees of Siva, Vishnu, Uma came to Him.
Muruganar wrote poems, in fact, he came with a poem, Desika Padigam.
G.V. Subbaramiah wrote beautfiul Telugu peoms like Thaamboola
Vaibhavam. Pazhaniswami and Sivaprakasam Pillai were Ganapati
devotees, even though they were not poets at that time. Sivaprakasam
Pillai later wrote poems on Bhagavan Ramana. Papaji and Krishnapremi
were great Krishna bhaktas.  All these bhaktas were asked to continue
their devotion but later, at an appropriate time, directed them to
vichara marga.

Kavyakanta Ganapati Sastri, was a great mantra japa speciailst
and Raja Yogi. He could bring rain drops on his head, when he came
out of the cave after chanting Sri Lalita Sahasranama.  But he found
that this would not give him peace and liberation.  Bhagavan Ramana
had to correct his path and put him into Atma Jnana vichara.

There were pure Jnanis who came to Bhagavan Ramana.  They started
right earnest at the beginning itself and found the Ramana Way the
same, but it needed some refinements and Bhagavan Ramana gave
those refinements.  Lakshmana Sarma, (Who), Sri Sadhu Om, Wolter
Kiers are examples of this type.

So, every path is good in itself.  But Jnana Marga, which is the simplest,
is the most sublime.  People who were pursuing  other paths, came to
know its simplicity and refined themselves.

Okay, What is this Vichara Marga, how is it simple?

Arunachala Siva.    
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 23, 2008, 04:21:52 PM
Verse 10 continues...

How is this Vichara Marga simple?

Because, it only needs a withdrawing and crouching in the Self.
Where is this Self?  Bhagavan Ramana says:  Utitha Idathil....
The Place from where it rose or sprang up?  For the seekers who
want to know the place, Bhagavan Ramana said: "It is on the
right side of the chest, two digits away from midchest.  It is
called Heart Centre.  This concept is revolutionary.  Never anyone
prior to Him had said that the Heart Centre is on the right side of
the chest, not even Sri Sankara and Gaudapada.  But Bhagavan
Ramana said it out of His own experience.  This is experiential
and not to be shown or perceived.  Once some over-anxious devotees
wanted to test it!  Bhagavan Ramana agreed enthusiastically!
They touched His chest on its right side and found three beats at
an interval!  So, 'from where' means Heart Centre.

For others who are already advanced, did not want any such thing.
They all understood that the Self is everywhere, and there is no
need to seek it within.  But remember, this is only for advanced
souls, and not for most of us!  Then, the Uthitha Idathil.... means
"from which" and not "from where".  They spring from the Self,
all these dualities, with mind and ego complex.  And after proper
self enquiry, where mind is controlled or annihilated, then the mind-
less soul merges into from which it sprang, that is the Self, Brahman,
the Oversoul.

Verse 10 in Tamil, Upadesa Undiar:

Uthitha Idathil, odungi irutthal,
Adu Kanmamum*, bhaktiyum, Undhi para,
Adu Yogamum, Jnamum, Undhi para!

(* Kanmam - Karmam.)

Arthur Osborne's translation:

Absorption in the Heart of Being,
Whence we sprang,
Is the path of action, of devotion,
Of union and of knowledge.

Osborne uses excellent words. He does not openly say, either
'from where' or 'from which'.  He leaves it to the seekers.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: ramanaduli on November 23, 2008, 05:45:37 PM

You say we have to pick up the work with ego.But we should not forget "I" witness. Ego is like a dress. Is not a risky game. Here i cannot understand correctly. I request you to explain
once again. At first we should know what is ego. then how much we can apply to handle the situation. My understanding is ..... suppose some one is doing wrong. I do witness.
I correct him. If he agrees  then I should not feel proud and should not expect any fruit out of it. If I feel, then it is my ego. If he does not listen, I should not feel bad for it.
Is it.
If we do the work with ego, what is the surity that we would not fall once again in the Maya. Instead, if we do with the suddha manas  I think this is the right way of doing.
Am I right.


Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 23, 2008, 06:39:14 PM
Dear srkudai,

Be a Witness.  Wonderful words.  Observe from where you sprang up.
Observe from which you sprang up.  This is the essence of the Witness,
and the Upadesa Saram.  One Narayana Guru, a famous Social reformer
and a Jnani and head of Varkala Math, Kerala.  He went all the way
to Skandrsramam to see Bhagavan Ramana.  He looked at Him and
Bhagavan Ramana gazed at him.  No exchange of words!  Later
he dined with Bhagavan Ramana and then wrote a five verse composition
called Nivrtti Panchakam.  Later after retrurning to Kerala, he wrote
another five verses titled Municharya Panchakam.  No exchange of
words, and Narayana Guru understood Him.  No words, no emotions,
no prostrations, no taking leave etc., etc., as you said Silence is the
most powerful thing, since it does not have any emotions.  Kavyakanta
Ganapati Sastri said:  After realization, Buddha established a religion,
Sankara wrote Brahmasutra Bhashyam, and Christ went around meeting
people in Sinai Desert.  But Bhagavan Ramana just remained in the Self.
He is the Jnani who swallowed a mountain of emotions, words, tours,
and preaching.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 23, 2008, 06:44:30 PM
Dear Ramanaduli,

How to run the ego with Witness?  Keep the Witness as a stick
and drive the donkey of ego till it comes back home, which is
again Witness! 

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: ramanaduli on November 23, 2008, 08:22:05 PM
Dear Subramaniyan ji

Now I got a new dimension to understand the "ego". So far what I understood from the books that ego is very bad. This is the one creates all problem. Ego means ahamkar i.e. should be removed in our mind to proceed to our self realisation.  When each one is having ego and lives, each one thinks I am right.
All problems then start.  So I thnk ego is very bad. If you explain more about ego I would be greatful to you.


Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 23, 2008, 09:05:27 PM
Consciousness+Adjuncts= Ego, Ahamkar (False I,Upadhi unarvu, "I" thought,adjunct consciousness,Vesha dhi,object knowing consciousness).

Consciousness without the association of adjuncts= Aham (Real "I",Existence consciousness,I am,ullam,ulladu,arive).
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: matthias on November 23, 2008, 11:54:33 PM
ego is the constant chatter, the blabla----but it can be seen, so it canot be the seer....that is the ancient neti neti...not this not that...we can actually see the ego so we are not touched by it..

regarding the ego as the bad enemy is taking a position, and taking positions is fueling the the best thing to do is to meditate and search for the self....the more one is used to meditation the more he will relaxe into the witness, a simple feeling of IAM willa rise, this feeling is there with thoughts without is before it, simply shining and meditate is to surrender to this IAM, feel(see,taste etc.) it more and more....the more one rests in this IAM, the more the small I is forgotten

it is dangerous to thing that No-Mind, or enlightment is total absence of thoughts, for some souls who are incredible absorbed in the god may have no more thoughts.....I for myself know that my job is to shine as the self more and more and do not waste time to deal with thoughts, because to surpress thoughts is a form of controll and comes from the ego...the art is to see and surrender to what is not touhed by silence or thoughts...this is the supreme silence, the self...and it needs alot of training and meditation to stay as that in all circumstances and to grow into the natural state....and one day the ego jsut drops...(but I do htink that there are still thougts, but they are seen as what they are, totally empty, without own energy, no obstruction, and no help...just thoughts, like breathing is just breathing tinking is just thinking, the self is forever untouched by it)

please clearify this
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 24, 2008, 11:09:40 AM
Dear Ramanaduli,

For most of us Ego is our master.  Bhagavan Ramana says control
the ego/mind and make it your servant.  Then the ego will be at
our service.  This state is called Pure Ego or Pure Mind, Suddha Manas.
All Brahmajnanis operate with this Pure Mind.  Bhagavan Ramana
says, it is like a burnt rope.  It does not harm others nor can it be
used for tying things.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 24, 2008, 11:14:45 AM
Dear Matthias,

As you have said, the no-mind state is not dangerous.  Thoughtless
state is not dangerous.  The thoughless state is where the Self
operates with all its glory.  It does the work in office,  it eats the food,
it goes to cinema or watch TV.  This is the state where Brahma Jnanis
ever stay.

Dear srkudai,

Yes. Ego is the role playing Ravana, but the Self is the actor in the
real world.  When the play is over, you are the Self.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: matthias on November 24, 2008, 03:49:35 PM
hmm I did mean something else..

I said that I think that the state called no-mind or not really thoughtless....thoughts may arise but ttere is no one to whom they arise.....they lost their substance and are not longer a hindrance for the all illuminating self....but still they rise and breathing comes and fact thoughts are just thoughts..natural, the unnatural is the identification

and I said that if this is a right point then it is dangerous to believe that enlightment or liberation is a state without thinking....because in this case one is in bondage when thoughts arise but I do not believe this, I think one is in bondage if thoughts arise and there is identification with the thoughts...thoughts cna come and go, breath can come and go, sleep comes and goes....but we are free of tis means that sleeping arises, thinking arises, breating arises but we are not longer identified with it..

please clearify
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 24, 2008, 04:09:17 PM
Dear Matthias,

I saw your clarification.  In the No-mind state (it is not thoughtless
state, because the term would be self contradictory), thoughts do
arise, for the purpose of doing good things, helping others, guiding
the disciples and for routine activities like bathing, nature calls, eating
food etc.,  These are good.  Jnanis in 'no mind' state did all the work
of preaching and writing books.

Your second paragraph.  Such thoughts are not dangerous.  Because
it does no harm, like a burnt rope or a killed snake.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 24, 2008, 04:58:54 PM
Dear Subramanian,
                         In no mind state "I" thought loses it's identity with the body,thoughts,sense perception.Because there is no identity
with anything Pure "I"thought is not binding as a burnt rope is not binding as you rightly said.The beauty of no mind state is that it reflects
the light of awareness of Pure consciousness even when we are engaged in work in the phenomenal reality.Bhagawan said no mind state
is "self" itself for all practical purposes.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 24, 2008, 05:13:43 PM
Dear Dr. Raju,

I agree with you.  The No-mind and no-thought concepts confound
most of us.  Basically we are all afraid that no-mind state is a
fractured mind state of a schizophrenic.  No-mind state gives rise
to Pure Mind, Suddha Manas, and no-thought state gives rise
to Pure Thought.  It is from the Self, that gives rise to activities
that help others for a Jnani.  Sankara composed great Vedantic
literature and Bhagavan Ramana composed Atma Jnana literature
from this Pure Mind. I was only clarifying Matthias' views regarding
'dangerousness of the thoughts after thoughtless state.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 24, 2008, 05:34:53 PM
Dear Srk Udai,
                   As you pointed out mind is a dead entity and we are imposing life upon it and animating it.Withdrawing that life force which we have imposed on the mind
is the goal of spiritual sadhana.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 24, 2008, 07:18:48 PM
Dear Srk Udai,
                   Sadhana is only for those who at least doubt whether their role in the phenomena is real.If they are badly idenfied with the role
due to forgetfulness of their nature no body compels them to change their attitude.Let them enjoy their role.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 25, 2008, 10:39:56 AM
Dear Dr. Raju and srkudai,

One Siddhar has made a two line verse:

If the "neecha", the mind. the lowly vanishes,
The mind is itself Isa, Siva.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: matthias on November 25, 2008, 11:07:56 PM
pranajama in yoga or samatha in tibetan buddhism or joriki in zen buddhism is a means to calm down the mind and to train the ability to focus on one thing....breath...(in fact pranajama goes a little deeper then the others, but the others are more to the point)

japa is better then this practices because it is without body...just mind...

but both is just an aid...

vipassana (buddhism) and vichara (at the beginning of it) is analytic meditation....and the previous two are just aids to stay with an analytical meditation for a long time....

but in fact the art is to taste the self, and stay in it....sometimes we forget it and then this meditation are aids to see clear again...

but in fact there is no meditation or other technique that can reveal the self (I think this is always grace), meditation is just to see it once and to stabilize it...or get used to it

at the end it never happened anyway

nobody going nowhere
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 26, 2008, 10:40:58 AM
Dear Matthias,

Yes.  Nothing ever happens!   Only the happenstance of the objective
world/subjective experience, is removed!

Dear srkudai,

Thanks.  There are such gems in Panchadasi.  We have to be ever
thankful to Suresvara for his Panchadasi and Manasollasa.  Even
though at some places, it is pedantic and dogmatic, there are simple
verses like these, which compensate for the boredom of pedantism.
I have to look into my books for these, since my posts have been pruned!

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 28, 2008, 03:13:02 PM
Verse 11 speaks about the control of mind, through breath-control.
We have now come to the plateu from the Everest.  Bhagavan Ramana
here, speaks about the ways to control the wavering and oscillating
mind.  He speaks about 'breath control' here.

Bhagavan Ramana has stressed three ways to control the mind,
in Who am I?  Remember, these are all for 'control' of mind and
not for its 'destruction'.  To Sivaprakasam Pillai, He said clearly,
that 'pranayama', worship of gods outside, and taking sattvic
food in moderate quantities are the aids for control of mind.  Self
Enquiry is for destruction of the mind.

Bhagavan Ramana never insisted any of these as 'must'.  He said
that the devotees can follow these paths for control of mind, and then
eventually come to the royal path of self enquiry.  He permitted the
Western devotees, to continue the non-vegetarian food, (outside
the Asram) and then try to work out how to switch over to vegetarian

Aruthur Osborne, in his book, The Life and the Quest, narrates his
difficulties.  He stopped non-vegetarian food, and asked Lucia Osborne
not to cook any non vegetarian food, at least for his consumption.
Later, in Madras, when he was working as an editor of a news paper,
writing book reviews, he used to go once in a week outside home, with
a craving for non-vegetarian food!  He used to go to a restaurant,
and order chicken and eat.  After sometime, he could not bear the
'sight' of chicks crying on his plate, and so he ordered for fish,
since Bengali brahmins, he has read in SRK's books, would eat
fish stating that "this is plantain" from Hoogly given by Mother!
Later after some months, Osborne totally switched over to vegetarian
food and later when he went later to Kolkota as a Head Master of a school,
he resisted eating fish!

Once a devotee, may be a Westerner, argued that even vegetables
and cow's milk are non vegetarian!  Bhagavan Ramana said that
these are from 'nivritti' of plants and cows, that is 'their relief'
and so it did not matter.  When a devotee pursued the argument,
He said:  Look, even the slab on which you are sitting are having
life and sitting on it, would be a 'killing'.  The Western devotee was
perplexed.  Bhagavan Ramana clarified:  The slabs contains the atoms
and electrons of silica, (Silicon Carbide), where electrons are constantly
rotating around the protons, and the atoms themselves are in constantly
moving from hither and thither.  Hence the 'movement' denotes life
and you cannot sit on the slab.  Then the devotee kept quiet!

Verse 11: Tamil.

VaLiyuL adkka valai padu put* pol,
ULamum odunguru Undhi para,
Odukka upayam idhu Undhi para.

(* PuL - coming as Put in Tamil poetry, means bird.  If it is pronounced
as Pul, it means grass.  The grass caught in a wind, oscillates,
but never gets trapped!  It remains after the wind has blown out.
So this breath control is only a temporary aid.)

Like the bird caught up in a net, the mind gets trapped in the
control of breath, and this is an aid.   

(Source: Upadesa Undiyar, Tamil. Bhagavan Ramana.  The Life and the
Quest, Arthur Osborne. Sri Ramansramam.)

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 28, 2008, 03:32:06 PM
Upadesa Saram: verse 11

Meaning:- The mind may be subdued by by regulating the breath,just as a bird is restrained when caught in a net.

Comment:-Pranayama is the science of breath.Mind is accustomed to stray in nonself leaving it's source the "self".

To control such a chaotic mind cultivating the prana (life force) makes the mind temporarily settled like a pond in

full moon light and mind for the first time tastes the bliss and happiness of thought free state while awake.

This tasting of bliss makes the aspirant certain that the nature of his being is bliss.So he pursues further to

establish in that state of bliss without any interruption.In this way pranayama is an aid in preparing the mind

of the aspirant to do self-enquiry.In pranayama only manolaya (temporary cessation of activity of the mind)

 happens and so annihilation of tendencies will not happen in pranayama.No radical transformation of the mind

 is possiblble in pranayama.It helps us to taste the bliss of thoughtless state of the mind as long as pranayama

lasts.Prnayama is an important Anga in Astanga Yoga.Body health and quality and length of life are profoundly

 affected positively due to pranayama.But when the breath (prana) comes out,the mind will also come out and

wander under the sway of tendencies as usual.So pranayama is mere aid for restraining the mind but will not

bring destruction of the mind.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: matthias on November 29, 2008, 01:49:33 PM
pranajama or joriki or any other kind of meditation based on breating is neccessary for the beginner of any meditation practice, because the focus is not head but prana, chi, lung etc.

through meditation on breath the mind becomes calm (in joriki the zen meditation on breath, the practicioner is told to "taste" the breath.....and one realizes that breath-energy is mostly cooling....and it also cools down the mind)

after some days of practice you will sentence a strong connection to life itslef (one feels more life running through body and mind), and this meditaiton is healing in nature---after some more practice the breath is naturally not so fast, and more gentle, this gives the body the opportunity to rest (and also the mind)

I think a calm mind and body is essential for right practice and a good life...

another important fact of these meditations is that the skill called "concentration" is strenghtened, a very important skill of the mind because concentration is neccessary in our daily life (concentration on goals etc.) and also it is important for all the other sadhanas and meditations..

it is in this sence essential for the ordinary practicioner..

I always start my meditation with a simple counting of the breath, and feeling the cooling energy...then I slowly start to concentrate on concentration or the witness.....and finally I switch to a mantra and then I let go of the breath (and I increase the conentration on what is, or fromw here the "I" sense arises--sometimes you can feel it in the chest)...and everything is open and wide, full of a gentle light, this is how I usually start and end the day....
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 29, 2008, 05:04:10 PM
Mind and breath spring from the same root, the Sakti within.

Bhagavan Ramana also speaks about this in Who am I?  He says,
both in Jagrat and Samadhi, when the mind is absorbed in its
Source, the breath is absorbed. But in Sushupti, deep sleep, even
though the mind is absorbed, the breath does not stop.  Why?
Because of Isvara Sakti, in order that the onlookers do not mistake
a sleeping person as dead, the breath continues.  It also happens
at the time of fainting, that is the mind does not function but the
breath continues.

Similarly even while the mind is concentrating on a particular subject
or venture, the breath should continue.  When pearl diver sinks into
the ocean, for pearls, he has to continue the breath.  When astronauts
go to the Everest or the moon, where there is no oxygen, they have to
take oxygen support.

In all these ventures, again the mind is only temporarily controlled.
It is not annihilated. All these efforts will have a temporary suspension
of the mental faculty, but the mind still remains.  Bhagavan Ramana
therefore said, persons like Kavyakanta Sastri and Natesa Mudaliar,
(later Swami Natanananda) not to pursue breath-control methods
but follow self enquiry, where one has to merely watch the inhaling
and exhaling breath.

Verse 12 in Tamil:

ULamum Uyirum unarvum seyalum,
ULavang kilai irandu Undhipara,
Onru avtarin moolam Undhipara!

Mind and breath, as thought and action,
Fork out like two branches,
But both spring from a single root.

(ULam - the mind; Uyiru - breath.  Like Sanskrit Prana, Uyir denotes
both breath and life.)

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 29, 2008, 06:56:03 PM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 12

Meaning:- Mind and breath manifesting in thought and action,branch out from a common source, Atma Sakti (Aham Spurana).

Comment:- The mind is the conscious aspect,the power of objective knowing,thinking (Jnana Sakti) where as breath or life force (Prana)

is the power of doing or action (kriya sakti).But the original power Aham Sphurana is like a trunk of a tree having mind and prana as

two branches.So mind and prana are interrelated.The imaginary power of the mind comes to a stand still if breath is controlled.Likewise

if mind stops imagining completely whatever is the reason breath comes to a standstill.Prana supplies energy to mind for thinking and to the body

for it's maintenance.When mind is strayed if we control the breath, immediately it feels suffocated,stops imagining and comes back to the present.

If due to self-enquiry thought process collapses in the spiritual heart the breath is controlled.The existence of the mind depends upon

it's identity with something gross.In self-enquiry because we pay our entire attention on the source of mind identity with nonself including

all adjuncts is nullified,so attraction to nonself does not exist and in such a state of being there is direct experience of nonexistence of the mind

(naiva manasam).The ego,the thinker appears as a real entity because of our continuous identity with the nonself.This identity is broken

when we pay attention only to "I" thought excluding all other thoughts.Then "I" thought is deprived of it's identity with all other thoughts
and perceptions it normally identifies with.Then the "I" thought start to subside in the spiritual heart and gets dissolved in it.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 29, 2008, 08:37:39 PM
Upadea Saram: Verse 13

Meaning:- Absorption or laya,destruction or nasa are the two kinds of mind control.When merely absorbed, it emerges again,but not when it is destroyed.

Comment:-  Subsidence of mind is two kinds.Abeyance (laya) and destruction (nasa).That which is in abeyance will rise but if mind dies it will not

rise.The subsidence of mind is gained by breath restraint and in states like sleep,death,swoon,coma is temporary and is thus manolaya or abeyance

of the mind.Since happiness is experienced only when the mind subsides and since rising of the mind is misery itself,if we are to enjoy happiness

forever it is necessary that the mind is destroyed permanently.Such permanent destruction of the mind which is the true goal of all spiritual

disciplines is called manonasa.The reason why breath control cannot bring about manonasa is breath control does not destroy the tendencies.

For making the mind subside permanently there is no adequate means other than self-enquiry.If made to subside by other means,the mind

will remain as if subsided but will definitely rise again.Where as in manonasa (destruction of the mind) the "I" thought is pulled into the spiritual

heart centre which eventually destroys it so completely that it never rises again.The concept of individual self is destroyed forever,only self remains.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 30, 2008, 10:18:31 AM
Bhagavan Ramana has always been cautioning the devotees,
agains this 'layam', be it from breath-control practices, or simply
enjoying the happy experiences, arising out of Atma Jnana, without seeking further for whom these 'layam' or happy experiences.  There
was one lady by name Sundarambal.  She used to practice this by
concentrating on the 'sushumna' and with the result, she was always
in a state of 'stupor' without being able to do any activity.  She
had a long matted lock and so she was called Jatini Sundarambal.  She
had an understanding husband, who was living away from her, but was
sending money every month.  He would merely write, Arunachalesvara!
Kapaleesa! in the MO form!  Bhagavan Ramana advised her to stop
this business and do self enquiry.  Kunjuswami used to take her around
the Hills, so that she might have some activity, without being in a
state of stupor.  After some time, she became alright and pursued
Atma Vichara.  So also a boy called Vasu, from Kerala, known to
Kunjuswami, for whom Bhagavan Ramana advised the same way!

Verse 13 Tamil:

Layamum Nasamum irandam odukka
LayithuLathezhum Undhipara!
Ezh thuru maaindhadhe Undhipara!

Osborne's translation:

Absoption is of two sorts,
Submergence and destruction,
Mind submerged rises again,
Dead, it revives no more!

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 30, 2008, 03:55:05 PM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 14

Meaning:- When the mind has been suspended by breath restraint,it may then be annihilated by single minded attention(Eka chintana) to the self.

Comment:- When one makes the mind which has subsided by restraining the breath, go on the path of knowing i.e self-enquiry and

becoming one with the self and it's form will die.Self-enquiry is not only the path of knowing and becoming the self but is also one

and the only path which will destroy the mind.When mind activity is ceased and mind becomes one pointed due to breath restraint,

it should keenly scrutinise and know pure conscious being in the heart which is adjunctless and thought excluding.So one should make
use of that peaceful state gained by Pranayama by turning one's attention to scrutinise and know the real import of "I",then mind will die,

for it will be known that there is no such thing as mind at all.In self-enquiry there is annihilation of tendencies leading to nomind (amanaska)

state.The mind rests in pure self conscious being without straying because the tendencies are annihilated.

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 30, 2008, 05:10:40 PM
Bhagavan Ramana has always advised His devotees, to acquire
Eka Chintana.  He even said that breath-control, Pranayama, is
not necessary and mere 'watching of the breathing' is adequate.
Bhagavan Ramana said: "Catch one thought and that will lead you
to self enquiry and no-thought state."  He has advised to chant
Siva, Siva, to Annamalai Swami.  He has advised Gambhiram Seshayyar,
to do Rama Japa.  When a person has acquired that continuous
practice of mantra japa, He said:  "Go to the root.  Ask who is chanting
this mantra?  Ask where the mantras at the end become quiscent."
He said Kavyakanta Ganapati Sastri to find out the leena-sthana of
mantras.  He even said: "Chanting within I, I, I or Subramanian,
Subramanian, Subramanian, .... will take you there, when the mantra
curls up into its Source.

Verse 14, in Tamil:

Odukka VaLiyai Odungum ULathai,
Vidukka Or Vazhi Undhipara,
Veeyum* adhan uru Undhipara!

(*Veeyum - it will die or become quiscent.)

Breath-controlled, and thought restrained,
The mind turned one-way inward,
Fades and dies.

(Osborne's translation)

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 01, 2008, 03:32:47 PM
Dear Srk Udai,
                   There is a state of mind in which there is only the perception of "what is" without naming it.This happens in Amanaska sthiti
in which mind is filled only with awareness without any noise of the past.Some of us may not have experienced such a state even
once but we should not think such a state is not there just because we have not experienced it.Pure Ahamkara Vritti is there even
in Jnanis (suddha manas) because,idamkara vritti is not possible without Ahamkara vritti.This is my opinion and i do not want to
argue further because somethings we know only by experiencing them.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 01, 2008, 05:22:15 PM
Dear srkudai and Dr. Raju,

We have already agreed upon not having any quarrels and arguments,
in Upadesa Saram posts.

There are multitudinous aham kara vrittis, for most of us in our lives,
and so Bhagavan Ramana has prescribed one Aham kara vritti, like
I, I, I, or Siva Siva Siva or Rama Rama Rama.  This kills all the other
aham kara vrttis and after realization, what one will have is Pure
Idam Kara Vritti through Pure Aham Kara Vritti.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 02, 2008, 09:03:14 AM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 15

Meaning:- What action remains to be done by that great yogi whose mind has been extinguished and who rests in his own true

and transcend state of being?

Comment:- For the one whose mind is destroyed and who abides in the self has no doership,no desires,no tendencies there is not

action left for him to do.He no longer mistakes himself to be  the body-mind complex,so does not associates himself with the fruit of action,free of all tendencies,self absorbed.

One, whose mind is destroyed is greatest in the existence.His mind becomes one with the self and always enjoys the bliss of self

without any interruption.Just the presence of their silent being  transforms the whole world.The original nature of the mind is

consciousness but when it associates with the adjuncts, volition (desire,will,sankalpa) and doubt(vikalpa) arise in it.

When the mind dissociates from the adjuncts there is destruction of sankalpa (desire) vikalpa (doubt) vritti (modification of the mind) is destroyed.

In religious jargon it is called manonasa or destruction of the mind.Such a great one (utkrusta) enjoys the bliss of self which is revealed

spontaneously because of the destruction of the concept of individual self and there is no single thing exists for him to do.

He does not know any other thing than self.Whatever action he may appear to do exist only in the outlook who mistake him

to be the body which does the action.

So from 11th to 15th verse Bhagawan dealt in detail about Raja yoga,so  he alloted first fifteen verses on how karma,Bhakti,Raja yoga

helps in preparing an aspirant for self-enquiry and in the rest of the verses Bhagawan taught the path of self-enquiry i.e Jnana Marga.(Path of knowledge)
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 02, 2008, 10:50:57 AM
The Verse 15 speaks about the destruction of the mind.  Here,
Bhagavan Ramana uses the word 'Yogi".  As Dr. Raju said, it
may mean Raja Yogi and also a Jnana Yogi, who has left doership
and desireship.  He says that such a Yogi has no work for himself.
If he does anything, it is for keeping the body alive, like eating and
excreting, bathing and sleeping, or to show the path to others.
In every action of his there is lesson for the seekers.  It need not
always be in the form of upadesa, but even his daily duties will
teach lessons to seekers.

For example, Bhagavan Ramana used to pick mustard seeds that
have fallen on the floor in the kitchen, and say that every seed is
Arunachala's gift to the devotees and we should not waste them!
His kitchen work itself was a lesson to not only kitchen assistants
but also to others.  Similarly, He never wasted anything in the meal.
He said that one should ask just enough food, but having taken he
should not waste even a single grain or vegetable piece!  He used
to wake up very early and take bath.  These are all teachings. He
used to take just one spoon of oil, place it on the head and with water,
he used to rub the head and take the remnant to the body and the
whole body would become shining with that one spoon of oil.  Much
before these days of walking, yoga exercises and aerobics,  He
taught the lesson of walking on the Hills!   Walking around the Hills
is not only an exercise but also you breathe the herbal airs which
are good for health!

Verse 15 in Tamil.

Manam uru maya Mei mannuma yogi,
Thanakkor Seyal ilai Undhipara,
Than iyal sardhanan Undhipara!

(Mei - Self;  Seyal - action; Than iyal - one's natural state of
being in the Self.)

Mind extinct, the mighty seer,
Returns to his own natural Being,
And has no action to perform.
                     - Osborne's Translation.

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 02, 2008, 05:14:20 PM
Upadesa Saram: verse 16

Having prepared the mind of the aspirant by directing the awareness of the mind and actions of the body selfwards through karma,

Bhakti,Yoga which involve the dynamic aspect of the self i.e body-mind complex,now it is the right time to hold on to conscious aspect

of the self.So Bhagawan teaches method of self-enquiry from 16th verse to 19th verse.

Meaning:- If one's attention is turned away from external objects of sense perception and focussed on the light of self,that is the true vision of reality.
(Atmanusandhana of mind).

Comment:- Wise people observe the phenomenal reality "as it is" and recognise without doubt that any attempt in indulging in the

affairs of nonself definitely leads to misery.Lord Krishna in Bhagavad Gita mentioned that world is a temple of misery (Dhukhalaya).

If we enter into that temple misery will be conferred on us.The way of life of humanity is miserable because majority indulge in nonself

and they feel individual existence is a reality and they are confident that anything can be achived by their own effot.They are not aware

that one higher power is responsible for the affairs of the world and events are happening through them but not because of them.

If one realises this,naturally he loses interest in nonself and his attention falls back on itself which amounts to seeing it's own nature

of consciousness.Thus mind knowing that it's nature is awareness only,gives up object knowing attitude,this alone is seeing of the reality (Tattwa darsanam).
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 03, 2008, 10:49:16 AM
During Bhagavan Ramana's staying in the Old Hall, that is upto
1944 or so, there were many devotees who were indulging in
circumambultation of not only the Hills but also the Old Hall!
One Lakshmamma started this practice and soon many started
going round and round the Old Hall, where Bhagavan Ramana was
seated!  Added to this, as if one prostration was not sufficient, many
devotees were making hundreds of prostrations, (namaskarams)
to Bhagavan Ramana.  They were also making namaskarams at the
every corner of four quarters of the Old Hall.  Even though these
things did not in any way, distrub Bhagavan Ramana, the other
devotees were disturbed.  Because, their figures were appearing
through windows and made them to see whether any one is coming
into the Hall.  Continuous prostrations in front of Bhagavan Ramana
also disturbed their silent meditation or in between their dialogue
with Bhagavan Ramana.  Bhagavan Ramana then told these devotees
that true circumambulation, as told in Ribhu Gita, is going round the
Self within.  True namaskaram is the prostration to the Self within!.

There were certain other devotees, who were going to the Western
devotees and 'advising' them, not to stretch their legs, not to sit
on a chair, not to lean on the side-walls etc., etc.,  Bhagavan Ramana
always criticized these over enthusiastic devotees, by telling them,
"Do the work, for which you have come for!"

Verse 16 in Tamil:

VeLi vitayangalai Vittu manam than,
OLi yuru orthale Undhipara,
Unmai Unarchiyam Undhipara!

(VeLi - outside; vitayangal - vishays;
OLi yuru - the Form of Effulgence, the Self within;
Unami unarchi - the True Knowledge)

It is true Wisdom,
For the mind to turn away
From outer objects and behold
Its own Effulgent Form.
- Osborne's Translation.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 03, 2008, 11:18:00 AM
Dear all,
                   The "I" thought superimposes afflictions and pleasures of body and mind on it and says,i am suffering from a disease
instead of saying my body is suffering from disease,and at the mental level it says i am miserable or happy instead of saying my mind
feels miserable or happy.This type of language continues as long as the habit of identity to body-mind complex continues.
As Udai rightly pointed out it is the silent awareness that reads,breaths,listens etc but the "I" thought comes in between the body
and self and claims the doership of the activities."I" thought is an altered state of consciousness but it has within it the essential
pure consciousness in it's core.So instead of seeking enlightenment it if we focus our attention on "I" thought,the real "I" reveals itself
which is behind the "I" thought and is the basis of "I' thought.This is real self-enquiry.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 04, 2008, 01:03:28 PM
Dear Srk Udai,
                   You are the right person to do transliteration of verses into English and i pointed out this even before begining of commentary.
If you want some time to do it, i will wait till you do that.I feel that you can transliterate the remaining verses in a single day and post it.
We can comment on the verses according to our convenience.I also have the same idea of keeping these posts for referance.I expect one
favor from you because i have no knowledge in arranging these posts in an order.Kindly give transliteration of each verse followed by your comment
on each verse,likewise Subramanian"s,and mine.So i expect 3 files containing the commentaries by each one of us and post it to my personal id.
The commentaries are done from three different point of views each having it's own merit.So i request you to continue transliteration
and commentary and do me the favor by sending three commentaries in three different files.There is no hurry,we will wait for you.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 04, 2008, 09:52:20 PM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 17

Meaning:- Again, if one persists in enquiring,"what is this mind of mine" it will be found that there is no such thing as "mind".This is the direct path.

Comment:- In this verse Bhagawan shows the way how the mind is to know it's own form of light.When we srutinise the mind i.e. personality

it will be found that there is no such thing as ego or personality.Enquiry is not a thought but paying attention to it.There is no ego apart from the idea

of it.Ego is an aberration on the pure self born out of body identity.The conscious aspect of the ego arises from the self and infact the self

but forgetful of it's nature because of it's association with the adjuncts and it believes in the lie of it's separate independent existence.When we

focus our attention on the souce of the ego it's lie of it's independent existence is revealed and as we practice like this with such an intensity as

 drowning man struggles for air, the lie is extinguished forever and the concept of individual self is annihilated and only self remains.

What was appearing as the mind is nothing but self,the Pure consciousness "I am".Existence consciousness is the sole reality of the unreal mind.

In self-enquiry Pure consciousness remains,only limitations become extinct.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: matthias on December 04, 2008, 11:23:06 PM
I will write from my personal experience like usual:

this verse means for me that when the mind is one pointed and concentrated and you take the mind to look for the mind...then you see that there is an absence of mind..instead there is a big shining nothing (an openess that simply repeats: "yes" or "I-I-I")...... the deeper you look into this the more untouchable and absent it is....and hten there is just no-mind and this no-mind is the nature of mind....

this is in fact the beginning of the true "inner" spiritual path I guess...

in my case this looking into the self comes and goes from is hard to tell if I have any control about it, or if it is in the hand of god....but anyway the more I look at it the more stable it becomes...and slowly I start to recognize that there is an uninterrupted conciousness, self-shining, one, I would not say blissfull but cheerfull or bright...

when my mind is resting inside this (what ever it may be, I guess it is the self or at least a first emanation of it) then I can say with all of my heart and integrety that this is what they call "self-sufficient" mind, or shikantaza in zen buddhism (this is seen as the beginning of mediation, before it is concentration)...

this is mind that needs nothing else to achive then mind alone...
the mind at rest.....
the vasanas are absent, thoughts may come or not, it is not interessting anymore...the only thing that is interessting is simply what is...simply this moment...anyting else is seen clearly as an obstruction to peace and happiness..

one thing to mention is also that this is without any kind of mental activity (I do not have to hold on to it or to "make" it or reproduce it, or to meditate upon it etc...)

it is simply there, just there, and when it is absent or not seen, then it is becaus eI have forgotten it, I can say this because is never changes, it is always the same "knowing" "seeing" or whatever...

love silence..

PS: please if you bring the english verses in correct order and in a nice form I would like to have a draft of it too...I found it incredible beautiful to read...and also to participate a little

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 05, 2008, 10:03:51 AM
In Verse 17, Bhagavan Ramana says: If you question or search the
'form' of the mind, there is no such thing as 'mind.'  Mind has no
tangible or gross form.  It is insubstantial, non-gross, subtle and formless.  Then what is mind?  It is in the form of "energy" that is in the form
of "waves"!  Since it is in the form of energy, wavelike, it can go anywhere, even when your senses are shut off!  This produces "thoughts" which
are again formless, insubstantial, non-gross and wavelike.  Only when
it results in 'actions' it becomes substantial, form-ful, gross, and tangible. 

When Annamalai Swami asked Bhagavan Ramana, whether he could
mediate with eyes closed, Bhagavan Ramana said that in that case,
the mind will act more vigorously, like a ball thrown at wall, by standing
closer to that wall!

How the mind acts like waves?  We have got innumerable examples.
It will act even when sense-organs are shut off! As in dreams.
Kekule, a famous scientist in organic chemistry, found the cyclic
structure of benzene, while he was sleeping!  He got up and wrote out
the structure of benzene, because he found in his sleep that six serpents
are in circular form, catching each others tails!  His eyes were not open
at that time.  The mind has acted in the form of waves, cutting across
the senses.   Beethovan composed the famous Ninth Symphony, but he
was deaf!  He could not hear it with his own ears, but he composed the
symphony!  Milton wrote Paradise Lost, when he was blind!

Then comes, the next idea.  How can this be a direct path?  That is
enquiry into the form of mind?  When the mind is enquired upon, it
goes back into the Self, and gets absorbed.  The mind, thoughts are
all Maya, Sakti.  When Sakti goes back into Siva, the there is no
dancing and loitering of Sakti. Even in Raja Yoga, they say that the
entire process is raising the sakti from Mooladhara and makes her
go into the Sahasrara, and lie in the bed, in the company of Siva, the
Brahman and the Raja Yogi puts a screen around their bed and comes back!  Kindly see Sri Soundarya Lahari.

So, mind = formless = Maya = Sakti = waves = all dancing of electrons!

And, the Self = form-ful = Siva = Brahman = Matter = Proton! 

Bhagavan Ramana says in Who am I? the following things about
the mind.

1. It is a wondrous Sakti, in Atma Swarupa.

2. It is formless and through thoughts it starts its operation.

3. When the mind is not there, there is no World, Jagat, and there is

4. When the mind is there, that is, when it is active, there is World,
    Jagat  and there is sorrow, Dhukka.   

5. When Siva, Brahman, the Self, is like shade, the mind, Maya,
     Sakti is like heat of the sun.  People who are in shade goes into
     the sun, and unable to bear the heat, comes back to the shade.
     The Jnani never leaves the shade.

6.   Be Still or Summa Iru in Tamil, is nothing but absorbing the mind
      in Atma.

7.   Wisdom insight is where nothing appears in the mind.

8.  Non attachment is not seeking anything from outside.

9.  Vichara or enquiry is keeping the mind within the Self.

10. If one controls the mind, he can be anywhere he likes.

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 05, 2008, 10:20:28 AM
Verse 17 in Tamil reads as under:

Manathin Uruvai Maravathu Uchava,
Manam Ena Onrilai Undhipara!
Margam Ner Arkum Undhipara!

(Manthin Uruvai -  The form of mind;
Mravathu - without fail or without forgetting; unceasingly;
Uchava -  When questioned or enquried upon; When scanned;
Manam Ena Onrilai - There is no such thing as mind;
Maragam- the Way; Ner-direct; Arkum - for anyone.)

Arthur Osborne's translation is as under:

When unceasingly the mind
Scans its own form
There is nothing of the kind.
For everyone
This Path direct is open.

Bhagavan Ramana has given a couple of examples about the nature
of mind and how it would run away, when questioned upon.  There
was a wedding.  A stranger, with the purpose of having good food and
treatement in the wedding, acted as if he is quite known to the bride
groom's side.  For someone, he had said that he is quite known to the
bride's side.  When both the parties came together and asked him,
he took to his heels!   A thief on the road, when was about to be caught,
was asking others, 'Where is the thief? Where is the thief?' like other
people and was 'searching' for the thief.  When the policemen came
and asked: Where is the thief?, he developed cold feet and took to
his heels! 
Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 05, 2008, 02:46:07 PM
Dear Matthias,

skrudai, has answered your points.  As regards English rendering of
Upadesa Saram, I have given in each verse, (so far 17 have been
initiated and I have written for each post) both Tamil and English
versions.  You may go through them, if necessary with print outs.

As regards, "sufficiency of the mind", this is a state, where at least
at that time, the individual does not seek anything.  It is mentioned
in Pure Land School, as the mind which looks at emptiness, within.
However, Sankara and Bhagavan Ramana do not stop with this.  They
say that the Self or Brahman or Atman is not emptiness, but is Effulgence.
And the "sufficiency of the mind", is not "no-mind state" or Pure Mind,
as mentioned by them.  Here the mind is not there and the Self Witnesses

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: matthias on December 05, 2008, 11:11:35 PM
thank you for the wonderfull answers....

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 07, 2008, 09:49:58 AM
While in Verse 17, Bhagavan Ramana mentioned that there is no
such thing as mind, and there is no form for the mind.  The mind
is a concept of energy, insubstantial, non-gross and formless.

In Verse 18, Bhagavan Ramana speaks about the thoughts.  These
thoughts spring forth from the mind.  The thoughts are also without
form, they are energy and there are non-gross. 

Bhagavan Ramana describes the thoughts in many places in Who am I?

Under Q 8 of Sivaprakasam Pillai, Bhagavan Ramana says that the mind
which is a wondrous power, makes the formation of thoughts.  He
further says, the Jagat is not apart from thoughts.  This is called Drishti
Srishti Vada of Advaita, as propounded by Sankara.  Thoughts cause the
world, the world is not there when there are no thoughts.  Like spider,
spinning a web around it, from it, the mind spins the world!  Like a spider,
withdraws the web,the mind withdraws the world, when it is not functioning!

Under Q 9, Bhagavan Ramana says, that the mind is nothing but "I thought".  In fact this is the first thought before any other thought arises.
It is not there in sleep.  Under Q 10, He says that ony by asking, Who am I?
the mind can be controlled/annihilated.   If one asks, whenever there is
thought, he will get a reply, 'it is for me.'  When he asks, 'Who am I?
this enquriy will destroy that thought.  Finally, even I thought will burn
out, like the stick that stirs the funeral pyre.

Under Q 11, Bhagavan Ramana says, that one should not try to acutalize
these thoughts, but should ask only "Whence these thoughts?"  With
this questions, the thoughts comprising of names and forms will disappear.

Under Q 12, Bhagavan Ramana says that thoughts expand endlessly,
when they go outwards.  Like when one throws a stone in to a tank,
the ripples start formating.  It expands, and each ripple or thought becomes weaker and weaker.  Like this, thoughts become weaker and
weaker but are plentiful.  For this Bhagavan Ramana says, "have one thought, Ekakrata."  This gives strength to the mind, and Atma Vichara
becomes easier.

(to be contd.)

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 07, 2008, 10:01:02 AM
Verse 18 continues....

Let us see further aspects of answers given by Bhagavan Ramana,
under Who am I?

Under Q 14, Bhagavan says about 'vasanas'.  He says that there is nothing
like good mind and bad mind, and there are only good vasanas and bad

Under Q 15, Bhagavan says that as long as there are vasanas, please
do vichara, through, Who am I?   As and when these thoughts/vasanas
appear, please crush them at their birth place, by the question, Who am I?
Here is where, the question of chitta suddhi comes.  Let there be any
number of thoughts.  Like soldiers from an enemy fortress.  Kill them,
each one of them, and you will own the fortress.  This constant fighting
against the thoughts till the fortress becomes your own, is the process
of chitta suddhi.

Under Q 19, Bhagavan Ramana describes 'vairagya'.  What is this
vairagya or non attachment?  This is crushing each thought, as it
appears, at its birth place.

Under Q 22, Bhagavan Ramana says about the dream state and wakeful
state.  In both the states, thoughts appear as names and forms.  Perhaps,
the thoughts in the dream state, might also include the vasanas, tendencies.

Under Q 24, Bhagavan Ramana says that staying with Atma is like
staying in the shade.  Going out to the world, is like getting scorched
in the hot sun.  Everyone likes to be in shade.  But due to ignorance,
he goes in the hot sun and comes back, when scorched.  The Jnani
is always in the shade.    He repeats what He had said in the beginning:
When there are no thoughts, there is no world, and there is happiness.  When  there are thoughts, there is world and with it, the misery!

to be contd.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 07, 2008, 10:11:54 AM
Verse 18 continued....

On self-enquriy, Bhagavan Ramana has prescribed a few methods,
depending upon the situation/devotees.  When Annamalai Swami
wanted to stay alone and meditate in Palakottu, He told him to
chant, 'Siva, Siva.'  He told Naryana Iyer, to chant Rama, Rama.
When Annamalai Swami, complained to Him, that he had been suddenly
having lustful thoughts on women, and that he had been fasting, Bhagavan
Ramana asked him, "What is the use of fasting?"  The very repeititon of
the thoughts, that he had had sex thoughts would add only to his misery.
Instead, Bhagavan Ramana said:  "By constantly regretting about the
thoughts of lust, would only bring about the same thought.  Instead,
ask, 'For whom, is this thought?'  It is for me.  Then, 'ask who am I?'

For Lakshmanaswami and Wolter Kiers, He directly suggested Self enquiry.  No Japas and mantras.  For Papaji, He directed him, only to seek Krishna
within and not seek Krishna outside, in visions.  For Lakshmana Sarma,
WHO, Bhagavan Ramana said:  You chant Sad Darsanam and meditate
upon each verse.  For Sri Sadhu Om, also He directed to study Sad
Darsanam.  He permitted Muruganar to go on writing many many beautfiul verses, in Tamil, stating that, such composition would be his sadhana!
Like these, for thoughts killing and keeping one thought instead of many many thoughts, Bhagavan Ramana prescribed different methods.

Verse 18, in Tamil:

Ennangale manam yavinum Nan enum,
Enname moolam am Undhipara,
Yan am manam enal Undhipara!

(Ennangal - thoughts.  Nan enum ennam - I thought.
moolam - root.  I is the mind, I is the first thought.)

Arunachala Siva.         
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 07, 2008, 10:39:40 AM
Osborne's translation of Verse 18:

Thoughts alone make up the mind.
And of all thoughts, the 'I' thought is the root.
What is called mind, is but the notion, 'I'.

Verse 19 in Tamil:

Nan enru ezhumidam edhu ena naada uN
Nan thalai saindhitum Undhipara,
Jnana Vicharam idhu Undhipara!

(Nan - I. ezhumidam - the place whence it springs.
Edhu ena naada- if you question from which/where  it is, and seek the   Source.  UN Naan thalai saindhitum -= your I thought will fall back into
the Source, shamefully .Jnana Vicharam idhu - This is self enquiry.)

Osborne's translation:

When one turns within and searches,
When this 'I' thought arises,
The shamed 'I'  thought vanishes --
And Wisdom's quest begins.

Bhagavan Ramana has said, that the 'I' thought is like a thief.  With
other thoughts, it would not go.  A thief cannot catch a thief.  When
the policeman arrives, the thief will take to his heels.  A mind/thought
is also like a thief.  Another thought/thief cannot catch it.  The Self enquiry,
that is, asking, for "whom is this thought?", is the policeman.  Upon seeing the policeman will thief will disappear.  It is again like the fellow who came
for a free lunch in a wedding, saying that he is a close relative of bride's
people or bridegroom's people.  Upon enquiry, the fellow will disappear.

Someone came with a shocking confession to Bhagavan Ramana.  He said
that his enamoured by a woman in the neighbourhood, who has got breasts like champagne-glasses.  He is not able to overcome lustful thoughts about her.  Bhagavan Ramana said:  There are two ways.  One
is to consummate your lust with her. Or, ask, for whom these thoughts are? Do not go on harping the thoughts.  Bhagavan Ramana has said
already in Who am I? : When one actualizes the thoughts that he likes or
when someone whom you hate, suffers, in both the cases, after completion, the mind comes back to Atma and enjoys Atma suka.

In this verse, the words, 'Ezhum idam', 'from where' the thoughts arise,
give room for two interpretations. 

1. From where, means the "place", that is Heart Centre, for seekers.
2. From which, means the "Substance", the Brahman, is for advanced seekers.     

The 'I thought' springs from Heart Centre, the place for inital seekers.
The 'I thought' springs from Heart, or Brahman, the Substance for
advanced seekers.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 07, 2008, 10:59:44 AM
Verse 20 in Tamil reads as under:

Nan onru thanathu Nan-Nan enru onrathu,
Than- aga thondrume Undhipara,
Than athu, poonram am Undhiapara!

(Nan onru - this I thought. thanathu - in that place. Nan-Nan enru
onrathu, - the sphurana of "I-I"    Than-aga thondrume - will
be experienced of its own accord. Than-athu, that 'I-I'. Poonram -
Poornam, the Infinite, the One without second.)

Osborne's translation:

Where this 'I' notion fades
Now there as I as I, arises,
The One, the very Self. The Infinite.

The Tamil words, Nan and Than, refer to the individual soul, I thought,
and the Supreme Being, Brahman, the Self.  These words are peculiar
to Tamil.  In fact, Bhagavan never knew the word Brahman, till He
came to Tiruvannamalai and till He read some Vedanta books brought
by Pazhaniswami, from the town.   Manikkavachaga and Tayumanavar
also used the words, Nan and Than.  The English translators found it
quite difficult to translate these words.  Osborne and many others started
using, 'I' and 'I-I' and certain other translators tried  'i' and 'I'!

Bhagavan Ramana used these words first in Who am I? in 1902.
Under Question No. 11.  He says: "When 'Nan', 'I' curls up into the Heart,
this I thought which is the root of all other thoughts, will also go away,
and it remains as  'Than', "I-I" in the Heart.  Then the ego dies, and
everything in this universe will appear as Siva Swarupa!

Some over enthusiastic devotees also wanted to verify this "Than" in
the Heart Centre!  When one of them touched Bhagavan Ramana's
right chest, they in fact, heard the beats three times, with an interval!

Bhagavan Ramana also says that what is Real is Atma Swarupa only and
all these Jagat, Isvara and Jiva are imaginations, so long as, I thought
continues.   When I thought is killed, everything appears as Jagat, Isvara and Jiva. This Cosmic Consciousness is experienced upon Self

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: matthias on December 13, 2008, 12:44:40 AM
verse 17

a very wondefull verse, and beyond tradition, land, origin or whatever...

turn within and look for the mind, you wil not find one..

it is true, if we look closely, if we focus on what is inside, if we focus on ourself, the one who is alive or who simply is right now, then there is nothing, simple open all embracing awereness, no beginning no end

you look for it one pointed, and then you simply see that there is no point at all...just space...

this sight of things, this inner understanding of who we are is deeply healing, it heals the whole organisim from inside out...
I think that no meditation can clean and heal you like this puja, no prayer, no good deeds....

to see that there is nobody, that there is no such thing as mind (a mind that is substancial or essential) is a very high form of sadhana
and pure grace of course...

peace peace peace
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 13, 2008, 01:14:52 PM
Dear Matthias,

You are correct.  That is why, "Who am I?"  (the prose form of Upadeasa
Saram, even though it is not a literal translation, but the purport being
one and the same) is the most read book, after the Bible, the Koran and
the Bhagavad Gita.  While the other three is read only by specific followers
of a specific religion, Who am I? is read by everyone.  It is beyond
all religions and people from Canada/Peru to Japan/Sydney are reading it.
Bhagavan Ramana has never said anything other than this. His various
forms of Upadesa are having the same meaning.  To Akhilandamma, a
non-Brahmin, who was giving Him food in the Hills, asked for an Upadesa.
The other devotees said to her on a full moon day:  Please ask Bhagavan
some 'initiation' today.  Today is the auspicious full moon day!"  Bhagavan
Ramana came after his monthly shave and was sitting on a stone slab.
He had not even taken bath!  Akhilandamma came to Him and asked:
Tell me something!  Bhagavan Ramana said: "What is there to tell?
Please do not leave 'you!"  One should not leave the 'I' within him and
that is the summum bonum of everything!

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 20, 2008, 10:42:25 PM
Dear Srk Udai,
                   The transliteration is so excellent that it does not require further comment.
I have two doubts,may be mistakes while typing.1) In verse 28 you typed it as apoorna but i think it is poorna.
2) In verse 28 you forgot to give the meaning of the words, vindati and eha.kindly clarify.   
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 22, 2008, 04:55:20 PM
Dear Srk Udai,
                   I think it is quite appropriate.

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 22, 2008, 06:19:21 PM
Dear srkudai, Dr. Raju and others,

I was away from Bangalore and was in Tiruvannamalai on 20th, 21st
and 22nd, (till 2 PM).   I reached Bangalore around 6 PM this evening.
Your translations are excellent.  I shall post tomorrow, Tamil Version
from Verse 21 to 30 and Osborne's translation, with stories, if any.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 23, 2008, 10:40:53 AM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 18

Meaning:- The mind is only multitude of thoughts.Of all these thoughts,the "I"thought,the feeling of

"I-am-the-body" is the root.Therefore what is called mind is the root thought "I".

Comment:- "I" thought is one thread on which all other thoughts are strung and since no other thought can

exist in it's absence,therefore what is commonly called mind is the root thought "I-am-yhe-body" idea.

"I"thought is the mixed feeling of "I-am-the-body".

Real "I" is the Pure existence "I am".

The "I" thought is the knowing subject,where as all other thoughts are objects known by it.

Hence, though other thoughts come and go,"I" thought always remains as the background upon which

they depend and when "I" thought subsides,all other thoughts must subside along with it.

Thus "I" thought is the one and only characterestic of the mind.Therefore ultimate truth about the mind

can be discovered only when one scrutises the truth of the first person "I" thought.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 23, 2008, 11:16:26 AM
The Upadesa Saram, Tamil, called Upadesa Undiyar has got these
verses in the original.

Verse 21:

Nan en chor poulamadhu naLume,
Nan atra thookathum Undhipara,
Namadhu inmai neekathal Undhipara!

Osborne's translation is as under:

Of the term, 'I' the permanent import is
That. For even in deep sleep,
Where we have no sense of 'I'
We do not cease to be.

Bhagavan Ramana on numerous occasions, have given this
example of deep sleep, where there is no I-sense, to the
devotees.  In Who am I? also, He tells Sivaparakasam Pillai,
that the permanent import of I-I is there even during sleep,
samadhi and fainting.  This verse is important in the sense that
this describes the Mahavakya, Tat Tvam Asi. Thou Art That.
In the sushupti state, where there are no five conative organs,
where there are no cognative organs, where there is no mind,
where the prana alone is allowed to continue by God's rule,
where there are no vasanas, That which is You, is there.  In fact,
Tirvembavai, Verse 8 about which I have posted today, speaks
of Vishnu's Yoga Nidra, as meditation on Siva.  We are all Siva, and
we are meditating on Siva in our deep sleep.  When some Western
devotee asked Bhagavan Ramana:  "Why then we cannot go on
sleeping, to arrest the mental activities and thus pursue self enquiry?",
Bhagavan Ramana said: "That is not possible.  More than the body,
it is the mind that needs some sleep.  When that rest is taken, the
mind would start its monkey business and you will wake up!"

The sleep is a state of 'no activity'.  But it is only a state of suspended
animation of mind.  For example, even in a house, where someone
has died and the corpse is yet to be burnt, the relatives will cry till
late midnight and then go to sleep to have the Ananda of Self! 
Again, after a few hours, the monkey of the mind would first wake
up, and then the body.  They will all start crying with hoarse voices!

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 23, 2008, 11:28:56 AM
Upadesa Saram, Verse 22 reads as under in Tamil.

Udal Porui ULLam Uyiur IruL ellam,
Sadam ach chathanthal Undhi para,
Sattana Nan all Undhipara!

Udal - Body; Pori - five senses; ULLam - mind;
Uyiur - life force, breath; Irul - darkness, sleep;
Sadam - Jadam, insentient; acchath -Asat - unreal;
Sat - Sat.

Osborne's translation reads as under:

Body, senses, mind, breath, sleep --
All insentient and unreal ---
Cannot be 'I'
'I' who am the Real.

Here Bhagavan Ramana speaks about the Mahavakya,
I am Brahman, I am Real. The body etc., are not the real 'I'.
This has also been explained to Sivaprakasam Pillai in Who am I?
Bhagavan Ramana has told him that all these are unreal and even
the ajnana, the vasanas are also unreal.  In the previous post,
I wrote about the Western devotee who asked why not a person
be always in sleep to avoid the mind.  Here, Bhagavan Ramana
says that  even sleep or darkenss is unreal.  Hence in deep sleep,
which is the unreal state, even though there is Real, you cannot find
It, unless the vasanas go.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 23, 2008, 11:38:41 AM
Dear srkudai,

In Tamil, Bhagavan Ramana used two words, "Naan" to denote
the individual soul, the mind and the ego.  He used the word
'Thaan" to denote the Real, Brahman, the Self.  These two words
are common in Tamil scriptures.  Bhagavan Ramana used the same
two words in Who am I? also.  He did not have the idea of two-bird
simile of Vedanta while saying this.  But English devotees like Brunton
and Osborne, in order to distinguish the Self and the non-Self used
I-I and I.  Some other Western devotees tried, 'I' and 'i'.  But the
first method and usage prevailed!  We may possibly understand this
as Atman and Brahman, the words used by English commentators of
Upanishads like Christopher Ingelwood and David Frawley.  No
Tamil commentator excepting Sri Sadhu Om, brings about the two-
bird simile.  Even Sri Sadhu Om, mentions it as an auxillary example.

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 23, 2008, 11:53:37 AM
Dear srkudai,

You are correct.  However, when I asked about this to some Asram
devotee, during one of my visits, he said:  Bhagavan Ramana did not
use it or mention about it, PERHAPS, because it implies duality.  That
Asram friend may also be correct.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 23, 2008, 12:14:07 PM
The Upadesa Saram, verse 23 reads as under in Tamil.  

ULLAdu unara unarvu verinimayin
ULLadu Unarvu ahum Undhiara,
Unarve Naamay uLam Undhipara.

ULLAdu- That, the Self, Brahman.
Unarvu - feeling, knowledge, awareness, conviction.
Unarvu - Awareness.

Osborne's translation is as under:

For knowing That which Is,
There is no other knower,
Hence Being is Awareness.
And we are all Awareness.

After speaking about the Reality aspect, Sat in Verses 20-22,
Bhagavan Ramana tells here about the Knowledge aspect, the
Awareness, Chit.   In Sat-Chit-Ananda,  Chit is described here.
Who are we?  We are Real and we are Awareness. Once the
enqurier knows that there is nothing more to know, and that
there is no other knower, he becomes Awareness.

Once Kunju Swami told Bhagavan Ramana that he wanted to read
16 books which are taught in Maths as Siddhanta/Vedanta scriptures.
He wanted to go to Kovilur Math and sought permission for three months stay there in Kovilur. Bhagavan Ramana asked him, what he wanted to
know from these sixteen books.  Kunju Swami answered that he
wanted to 'know' about Brahman.  Bhagavan Ramana smilingly said
that if he knew his Self, there was not thing more to know!

All these sixteen books are in Tamil.  Some of these are:

1. Swarupa Saram.
2. Vedanta Choodamani. (not Sankara's)
3. Ozhivil Odukkam.
4. Thuhalaru Bodham.
5. Bhagavad Gita Sara Thaalattu.
6. Sivajnana Bodham.
7. Kaivyalya Navaneetam.
8. Siddhar Jnana Kovai.
9. Guru Gitai.

It is amazing to see that David Godman quotes from these books,
while commenting on Guru Vachaka Kovai!

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 23, 2008, 01:05:28 PM
Dear Srk Udai,
                   The "I" thought is a superimposition on real "I'.The core of "I" thought is pure consciousness.
So when we scrutinise the "I" thought and if one can keep attention on the inner feeling of "I',then the
"I" thought start to subside into the heart centre i.e pure consciousness.This can be done by holding on to
inner feeling of "I am" excluding all other thoughts."I" thought is an altered state of consciousness in which
consciousness is associated with adjucts and there arises a compound consciousness which is basically
object knowing consciousness where as basic form of consciousness is exclusive self consciousness (Real "I",thaan,"I""I")
in which awareness is aware of itself only,while consciousness associated with adjuncts is aware of objects.(False "I",nan,)
But in both the cases that which cognises is only Pure consciousness.There are no two separate conscious entities,
one for knowing objective reality and another for knowing itself.Our being itself is self conscious,self effulgence.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 23, 2008, 01:20:17 PM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 19

Meaning:- When one scrutinizes with in thus, "what is the rising place of "I"?,the "I" thought will subside(die).
This is self-enquiry (Jnana Vichara).

Comment:- When one inwardly scrutinizes root thought,the feeling "I-am-the-body" in order to find out from where

it arises,it will subside and disappear because,like the snake in the rope it has no reality of it's own and hence

appear to exist only when it is not keenly scrutinized.This vigilant inward scrutiny of "I" thought,alone is

Jnana Vichara,the enquiry which leads to true self knowledge.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 23, 2008, 01:40:54 PM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 20

Meaning:- In the place where "I" i.e the mind or ego merges,the one (Existence consciousness,basic form of consciousness) appears spontaneously as "I" "I" or "I am I".That itself is the whole (Poorna).

Comment:- When the mind or the ego,the feeling of "I am this" or "I am that" subsides and merges in it's source,

the real self,the one true existence consciousness shines forth spontaneously as "I" "I" or " I am I"(Thaan),

devoid of all superimposed adjuncts such as "this" or "that".This adjunctless "I" "I" is the self,the absolute reality,

the whole (Poorna).Bhagawan says that as a result of such self-enquiry,the reality will shine forth spontaneously

as "I" "I" or "I am I".

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 23, 2008, 04:32:00 PM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 21

Meaning:- The "I" "I",the whole is always the import of word "I" because we exist even deep sleep ,which is devoid
of "I" thought i.e mind.

Since we do not become nonexistent even in deep sleep,where the mind in the form of "I-am-the-body"

does not exist and since we are conscious of our existence in deep as "I am",that one reality which shines forth

as "I" "I" or "I am I" when the mind merges in it's source and dies, is always in all the three states of waking,

dreaming,deep sleep and in all three times i.e the past,present and the future~the true import of word "I".

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 23, 2008, 07:33:12 PM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 22

Meaning:- Since the body,mind,intellect,breath and darkness of ignorance which remains in deep sleep are all

insentient (Jada) and unreal (Asat),they are not "I" which is the reality.

Comment:- Bhagawan is negating the five sheaths (Pancha kosas) which apparently cover the consciousness

because they are insentient and unreal,because they do not posess inherent consciousness or existence of their own.

Hence they cannot be the "I",the reality which is both self existing and self shining.The feeling of "I" is mixed up with

adjuncts,so Bhagawan is negating the adjuncts to show the true import of "I" which is the reality.

The five sheaths are:- 1) Physical body~Annamaya kosa.
                               2) Breath or life force~Pranamaya kosa.
                               3) The mind~Manomaya kosa.
                               4) The intellect~Vijnanamaya kosa.
                               5) The darkness of ignorance~Anandamaya kosa which is experienced in deep sleep
                                    due to disappearence of other four sheaths.

By means of sequence of ideas presented in verses 16-22 Bhagawan reveals us the true and practical import of

scriptural teaching "neti,neti"(not this,not this).Traditionally neti,neti is done as an intellectual method.

Einstein says that a problem cannot be solved on the same level of consciousness that gave rise to the problem

which means the problem of self-ignorance cannot be solved by effort of it's progeny of five sheaths.   

Bhagawan reveals that neti,neti is not intended to denote a method of practice but only indicates a final

state of experience which is different in the level and quality of consciousness compared to the present

altered state of consciousness with the association of adjuncts.

In verses 16-19 Bhagawan teaches us the method of practicing self-enquiry.

In the verse 20 he teaches us that as a result of such practice the reality will shine forth spontaneously

as "I""I" or " I am I".

In the verse 21 he declares that the reality which thus shines forth as "I" "I" is always the true import of "I".

And finally in verse 22 he concludes by saying that since the five sheaths are insentient and unreal,they

cannot be "I",the reality whose nature is existence consciousness.

So true knowledge that the five sheaths are not "I" is an experience which can be attained only by knowing the

real nature of "I" through practice of self-enquiry.

The reason why scriptures begin by teaching that five sheaths are not "I",is that in order to practice self-enquiry

it is useful for an aspirant to understand intellectually that the "I" which is to be attended to is not the body or

any of other adjuncts which are now felt by him to be mixed with the feeling of "I".But since Bhagawan does not

want us to fall prey to the misunderstanding that pondering intellectually over the truth that the five sheaths

are not "I" is itself the method of negating the five sheaths.He has carefully taught us the method of practice of

self-enquiry before revealing to us the conclusion that the five sheaths are not "I".This revolutionary understanding of

neti,neti method by Bhagawan contributed a lot in the whole understanding of Advaita and Bhagawan took us

to a new heights in understanding the method of practice of self-enquiry and in this aspect Bhagawan surpassed

Adi Sankara in contributing to the understanding of human consciousness.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 24, 2008, 05:51:12 AM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 23

Meaning:- Because of nonexistence of another consciousness to know that which exists (The reality,Sat,Ulladu)

is consciousness (chit,unarvu),that consciousness is itself "we"(The real self).

Comment:- In the remaining eight verses,Bhagawan reveals more conclusions,which will be useful in helping us

to put self-enquiry into practice,but which can be realised through direct experience only when we actually

attend to the "I" and there by realise it's true nature.

That which exists is real self "I" which shines forth spontaneously when the mind dies.Since this "we"(self,namay ullam)

is the only existence or reality,there cannot exist any consciousness other than it to know it,and hence it is itself

the consciousness which knows itself (unarve).Therefore "we"(The reality) are also consciousness (chit).

Our existence and the knowledge of our existence are not two different things,but are one and the same reality.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 24, 2008, 06:25:58 AM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 24

Meaning:- By existing (irukkum) in their real nature which is existence or Sat,God and souls are one substance (vastu).

Their adjunct knowledge or adjunct consciousness alone is different.

Comment:- The existence consciousness "I am" is the real nature of both God (Eswara) and of souls (Jivas).

But on this "I am" adjuncts or upadhis are superimposed and these adjuncts which are a form of wrong knowledge

or ignorance,gives rise to seeming differences which exist between God and soul.

The soul feels that he is Kinchigna (Posessing limited knowledge),transient (living for a limited period of time)

with limited existence and limited power and he thinks that God is all knowing (Sarvajna),all powerful (omnipotent)

all pervading (omniscient) and eternal without birth or death.This is an imagination which exists only in the

outlook of the soul (Jiva Dristi) and not in the outlook of God (Eswara Dristi).
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 24, 2008, 07:25:34 AM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 25

Meaning:- Knowing oneself having given up identity with one's own adjuncts (Upadhis) is itself knowing God,

because he shines as oneself as one's own reality (I am).

Comment:- In Ulladu Narpadu Bhagawan said, "He who sees the real self,the source of the individual self,

alone is he who has seen God (Here seeing God means being as the "self" whose nature is Godliness),

because the "Real Self" which shines forth after the base i.e the individual self has perished--is not other than God."

Since that which exists and shines is one as "I am" is the true nature of God and since it is only one's own

adjunct knowledge (Jiva Dristi,Upadhi Unarvu,Vesha dhi) that veils the knowledge of "I am",knowing this "I am",

which is one's own real self,without identity to the adjuncts (Upadhis) is itself knowing God.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 24, 2008, 07:43:37 AM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 26

Meaning:- Being the self itself is knowing the self,because self is that which is not two.

This is abidance as the reality (Tanmaya Nishta).

Comment:- Since we do not have two selves,one self to be known by the other self,what is called self-knowledge

is nothing but the state of being the self i.e the state of abiding "as we really are",as mere existence consciousness

"I am" instead of rising as "I am this","I am that".This state of being is what is called "self abidance" (Atma-Nishta)

or "abidance as the reality" (Tanmaya Nishta).
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 24, 2008, 08:17:59 AM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 27

Meaning:- The absolute knowledge which is devoid of relative knowledge and ignorance about objects alone

is real knowledge.This is Truth because in the state of self experience there is nothing to know other than oneself.

Comment:- The mere consciousness of one's own existence, "I am" which is devoid of both of feeling "I know"

and the feeling of "I do not know" alone is true knowledge.

That which knows other than itself is not true knowledge.Since self shines without another for it to know or

to make it known,it is true knowledge.Though devoid of knowledge and ignorance which are essentially relative

with reference to objects,it is not void--know thus.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 24, 2008, 09:25:22 AM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 28

Meaning:- Thus enquiring "what is my nature",one finds oneself to be undecaying and unborn Pure consciousness bliss.

Comment:- If one knows what one's nature is through enquiry (Atma vichara),then what will remain and shine only is

the beginningless,endless,oneness of existence consciousness whose nature is bliss.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 24, 2008, 12:38:45 PM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 29

Meaning:- Abiding in this state of self,having attained supreme bliss,which is devoid of bondage and liberation

amounts to abiding in God.When one enjoys the bliss which is not of this world, he is as divine as God

and in such a state there are no differences like Jiva (Individual soul) and Eswara (God).

Comment:- When we enquire into the one who feels that he is in bondage,the ever liberated one (Real self)

alone remains as unequivocal truth,since the thought of bondage and liberation cannot remain there.

The only service we can render to God is to cease rising as an individual (Ego) and there by refrain by making it

necessary for God to run to our rescue to serve us out of his all merciful attitude.

One who is established in self has no separative feeling with the God and hence he is not other than God,

the one supreme reality.God resides in him and his actions are actions of God.

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on December 24, 2008, 12:54:56 PM
Upadesa Saram: Verse 30

Meaning:- This self-enquiry which is devoid of "I-am-the-body" feeling,is the great penance which reveals the

"nature of self".This is the Truth as spoken by Bhagawan Ramana.

Comment:- The state of nonrising of ego which is the outcome of doing self-enquiry without any identity

to nonself  which reveals the nature of self is great penance says Bhagawan Ramana.

                                                 Om Sri Ramanarpanamastu.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 24, 2008, 02:24:26 PM
The Verse 24 reads as under in Tamil:

Irukkum Iyarkaiyal Isa Jeevargal
Oru Porule yavarum Undhipara
Upadhi Unarve veru Undhipara

(Irukkum Iyarkai - in the nature of being.
Isa - Creator. Jeevargal - Jivas
Oru Porule - one Substance.
Upadhi Unarve veru - only the adjuncts/awareness.)

Osborne's translation:

In the nature of their being, Creator and the creature,
Are in substance one.
They differ only
In adjuncts and awareness.

Bhagavan Ramana says in Who am I? to Sivaprakasam Pillai: 
The only real thing is Atma Swarupa.  The world, the jiva (and
the personal gods) are only imaginations on It. But Bhagavan Ramana
adds here:  Like the silver in the oyster shell! 

The question arises therefore naturally in a seeker's mind, how then
can the world and the Jivas be imaginations?  What is imagination?
You are superimposing a false appearance on something real. Advaita
Vedanta gives different examples.  Like rope and the snake.  Like oyster
shell and the silver.  So, one imagines that the jivas and world are
superimpositions/false appearances/mithya on the Reality, Atman, Isa,
Isvara. Once this false appearance is removed, the Reality shines in Its
brilliance.  Then,  the creatures also appear as Real, because
all are Isvara swarupa!  Every individual soul is potentially Divinity. When
false adjuncts once removed, indivudal soul becomes Divinity.

Once there was a gentleman (I think it is Sofa Gounder), who was
earlier very intensely devoted to Bhagavan Ramana, but later became
troublesome to the Asram.  He even filed a suit against Bhagavan Ramana
and Chinnaswami claiming ownership of the Asramam.  Later Gounder
passed away in a pitiable condition, with disease and poverty.  When
the news came in the morning, the devotees were eager to hear from
Bhagavan Ramana, what He would say about Gounder.  Someone
started telling Bhagavan Ramana about Gounder's sad demise.  Bhagavan
Ramana kept quiiet for some time.  Then He said:  "O Gounder!  What
a spotless white dhoti he would wear always!"   Bhagavan Ramana could
see what was good in Gounder, because for Him, everything is Atma

Isvara, the Creator is Sarvajna.  Jiva is Khinchitjnan.  Isvara is Sarva
Saktan, Jiva is Asaktan.  Isvara is Virat, Jiva is alpa.  The adjuncts and
awareness are the differences.  On realization, Jiva becomes Isvara.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 24, 2008, 02:42:11 PM
The Verse 25 of Upadesa Saram, reads as under in Tamil.

Thannai Upadhi Vittu Orvadhu than Isan
Thannai Unarvadham Undhipara
Thaan ayi oLirvadhal Undhipara.

(Thannai - the individual soul.
Upadhi vittu Orvadhu - seeing/comprehending/realizing without
adjuncts. Isan Thanni Unarvadham - is to be God. 
Than ayi oLirvadhal - It shines ever as the pure Self.)

Osborne's translation:

Seeing oneself free of all attributes
Is to see the Lord,
For He shines ever as the pure Self.

Bhagavan Ramana said in the earlier verse that the adjuncts are the
only difference between Jiva and Isvara.  Now, what will happen, if
the individual soul frees himself of all attributes?  Then it becomes
Isvara, Lord, the Self. Advaita Vedanta speaks about the brahmara,
the worm.  The worm, on constantly contemplating to become
a bee or a fly, in due course, opens the cocoon, and flies! Tayumanavar also sings:  "When can I break open this house and fly?"  What is the
house?  Our body, our vasanas, our mind, our ego, our five conative and cognative organs, our prana.  But in a Jnani's case, many of these
adjuncts would continue to remain, not as chains but as vehicle, to continue the purpose of his life.

Once when Narayana Guru came to see Bhagavan Ramana, he wanted to leave some money with Palaniswami and also his own people in Tiruvannamalai, for feeding Bhagavan Ramana.  While going, Narayana Guru had made a comment:   The people around Bhagavan are Anna-kavadis.  So we should help them.  Narayna Guru meant that people
around Bhagavan Ramana were utterly poor even without food and begged food (Anna kavadi).  But this word Anna kavadi means a few more things in Tamil.  It means a lowly pauper.  Palaniswami became very angry about this comment.  Bhagavan Ramana said:  Why do you get upset Palaniswami?  We are all Anna kavadis, the carriers of the bodies as Vehicle!  Yes.  Jnani carries the body as a vehicle.  It is not a troublesome adjunct for him.

Arunachala Siva.                 
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 24, 2008, 03:22:12 PM
The Verse 26 of Upadesa Sastram, in Tamil, reads as under:

Thaanai iruthale Thannai aRithalal
Thaan irandu atradham Undhipara
Than maya nittaiyil Undhipara.

(Thaanai iruthale - to be the Self, Atma.
Thannai aRithalal - To know the Self; to comprehend the Self.
Thaan irandu atradham - The Self is non dual.
Than maya nittaiyil - in Brahma nishta. abidance as the Self.)

Osborne's translation:

To know the Self is but to be the Self,
For It is non dual.
In such knowledge,
One abides as That.

Bhagavan Ramana indicated the Mahavakyas: Thou Art That and
I am Brahman earlier in two verses.  Here, He tells the Mahavakyas
Prajnanam Brahmam, Consciousness is Brahman (Aitereya Up. 5.3)
and Ayamatma Brahmam, This Self is Brahman (Br.Up.2.5.19).  If
one knows the Self he is the Self.  What is this 'knowing'?  It is not
a "feeling", or "thinking"  but "realizing"  as explained in Verse 25.
Once you realize the Self, with a firm conviction, then you become
the Self. Realization is not a feeling.  It is being merged in the Goal.  The way and the goal are one and the same, as Bhagavan Ramana said.
On the way, it may appear as dual but the non-duality is achieved on merging with the Goal.  This knowledge is both knowing and abiding!

Bhagavan Ramana used to give a fresh interpretation about the old
proverb about Tiruvarur, Chidambaram, Kasi and Annamalai.  In the
old saying, it is said, that one when is born in Tiruvarur, or when one
sees Chidambaram, or when one dies in Kasi or when one remembers
Annamalai, he gets liberation.  Bhagavan Ramana said:  To be born
is to kill the vasanas and taking birth. To see is to know or 'realize'.
To die, is to vanquish the vasanas, to remember is to constantly contemplate the Self, all these confer liberation or merger with the Self.
(See Talks). Janmanam Kamalalayam, darshanam Chidambaram, maranam
Varanasim, smaranam Arunachalam.  Janmam/darshanam/maranam/
smaranam all mean to know or comprehend or realize the Self, after
killing all vasanas.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 29, 2008, 11:48:59 AM
The Verse 27 of Upadesa Saram, in Tamil, reads as under:

ARivu ARiyamaiyum Atra ARive,
ARivahum unmai idhu Undhipara,
ARivatharku onRilai Undhipara!

(ARivu - knowledge, empirical, worldly knowledge.
ARiyamai - ignorance.
Atra - without these.
ARive - Knowledge.
ARivahum unmai - that is the real pure knowledge.
ARivatharku onRilai - no object is to be known.)

Osborne's/K.Swaminathan's translation is as under:

That is true knowledge which transcends
Both knowledge and ignorance
For in pure knowledge
Is no object to be known.

The worldly knowledge implies, "I know".   The ignorance implies,
"I do not know".  The Self Knowledge, which is Pure Knowledge,
is not both.  It is:  I AM.  Once this state is attained or merged with,
there is no object to be known.

The Brahma Jnana or the Truth is the "Sat".   It is only a conviction,
I AM THAT I AM.  In this state of 'anubhuti' there is no empirical
knowldge or ignorance.  It is beyond these two.  IT IS JUST IS.
Further, since there is nothing other than the Self, there is nothing
to be known or be ignorant of.  Hence there is no object to be known.

Then the question is:  How then the Brahma Jnani moves about in
the world?  How does he have empirical knowledge for various activities?  The answer is:  Since He is the Self and since there is nothing other than
the Self, the Self 'does' the activities of seeing, writing, speaking, teaching, attending to minimum required bodily needs.  Then a further
question:  How does He 'see' others and move with them.  Since there
is nothing other than the Self, He 'sees' every being as the Self. 

We have numerous incidents in Bhagavan Ramana's life.  After merging
in the Self, all the emprical knowledge comes of its own accord, and
in perfection!  For example, Stephen Hawking, the great astrophysicist,
joined the undergraduate course at the age of 12 in Cambridge.  Having
joined the undergraduate course at the age of 12, for a genius, will it
be difficult to tell the Multiplication Table 12?  The multiplication tables
are empirical knowledge, he, a genius was already at the undergradauate
class at the age of 12 studying Newton and Einstein.  Like that Bhagavan
Ramana, even though he never entered the kitchen in Tiruchuzhi or
Madurai, could be culiniary expert in the kitchen in the Asram.  He could
tell about each leaf and herb in the Hills and explain the medicinal
properties.  He could stitch leaf-plates in perfection.  He discussed
the theory of relativity with one Swami from SRK Math, Paris and told
him that the relativity theory is the pinnacle of human wisdom but the
Self-Knowldge is much beyond that!  While relativity assumes two
observers from different spots to know the relavity of time, the Self
Realized Person is the only observer of all phenomena!  Such a realized
soul is beyond the time-space continuum!

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 29, 2008, 12:00:21 PM
Verse 27 continues....

We have seen as how the Self realized Jnani, is beyond empirical knowledge and ignorance.  He adds that in pure knowledge, there
is no object to be known.  We have seen how Bhagavan Ramana
who merged in the Self in Madurai, exhibited empirical knowledge,
since Knowledge is One without the second, hence all the secondary
knowledge is displaed through the Self, and the Self alone.  The
verse also says, in pure knowledge is no object to be known.  Then,
how Bhagavan Ramana "saw" the people in the Hills and in the Old
Hall and later in the Jubilee Hall and Nirvana Room?  He saw them
all as the Self.

When some one was asking a question, it was not the Self that was
asking the question but only the mind/ego!  So, He replied them
succinctly as the Self!  For people, who did not ask any questions
to Him, but merely stood or sat in silence, in utter surrender and
devotion, He 'looked' at them and made their minds to stop working!

Once in the Hall, a photograph which was being seen by everyone,
suddenly got lost.  Everyone was searching.  At last, they found it
inside the book of a devotee, who had kept it, without knowledge.
Bhagavan Ramana was witnessing everything.  Maruice Frydman asked:
Bhagavan!  We were all looking at the photo. Then it got lost. Then
we found it.  There was anxiety in between. What was Bhagavan's
view about the whole episode?"  Bhagavan replied: "The photo, it being
seen by all of you, its being lost, its being found out, in between the anxiety and then the peace, ALL THESE I AM WITENSSING AS A DREAM,

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 29, 2008, 12:09:48 PM
Verse 27 continues....

For a Brahma Jnani, who is Knowledge, that transcends both knowledge
and ignorance, there is no object to be known.  All the worldy knowledge
comes of its own accord from the Self-Knowledge.  There is a story
of Sri Sankara.  Someone asked him, whether he knew how to stitch
torn footwear.  Sankara said that he had seen that activity of cobbling,
but had not done it but he could still do it.  The torn sandals, the iron
block, pieces of leather, needle, wax, and thread were brought and given
to him.  He took out the thread, scratched its end on his nose!  Then
he started fixing it inside the eye of the needle.  The observers were
amazed! Any cobbler, before he starts the work, takes the thread and
scratches it on his nose.  The moisture on the nose, makes the thread-end
straight and sharp to get into the needle!

Bhagavan Ramana composed Akshara Mana Malai and Upadesa Undiyar
and Ulladu Narpadu at the request of others.  Only Arunachala Padigam
came of its own accord.  All his works were composed on request by
others.  He was well read in Tamil but definitely not a poet.  He learnt
Sanskrit, Telugu and Malayalam in no time.  For a Jnani who is the Self
all the worldly knowledge was as simple as drinking water.  The Truth
within Him, is clearer than the gooseberry on the palm, as He Himself
has said.  From that Truth emanates, all the emprical truths in life.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 29, 2008, 12:22:08 PM
The Verse 27 continues...

I shall close this verse, with one anecdote on Bhagavan Ramana.
One Mr. Noles, an Italian, not more than 30 years old, yet well-
read in philosphy, both Western and Eastern, and eager to imbibe
the spirit of Bhagavan Ramana's teachings came to the Asramam,
once, and he had very many interesting talks with Bhagavan Ramana.

One morning, Bhagavan Ramana was telling the state of a jivan
mukta; how he is the ever-aware Self, the Witness-Consciousness
transcending space and time and causation, the fullness of Being,
Sat-Chit-Anada, the Existence-Knowledge-Bliss; how he is the
non-actor, non-enjoyer, and yet at the same time the greatest of
actors, the greatest of enjoyers and so forth.

Well, this was too much for Mr. Noles  , to digest. He put a straight
question to Bhagavan Ramana: "Are you or are you not talking to us?"

By an answer to this questin, he wanted to know how Bhagavan Ramana
expressed Himself consistently.  Others would eagerly watched for
what would fall from Bhagavan Ramana's lips!

Bhagavan Ramana gave Mr. Noles, a meaningful look and said in a
most emphatic tone: " I am not talking to you!"

In an ecstatic mood Mr. Noles echoed:

No. Bhagavan is not talking to us.  Bhagavan Ramana simply, IS.

All the devotees enjoyed the conversation.

(Source: AT THE FEET OF BHAGAVAN. Sri T.K. Sundaresa Iyer.
Sri Ramanasramam, Tiruvannamalai.)

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 30, 2008, 09:50:59 AM
I said that last evening, I was closing my posts on Verse 27.  While
reading, English version of Guru Vachaka Kovai, of David Godman, 
some thoughts came.

While writing on Verse 594 of Guru Vachaka Kovai, David Godman

Verse 594:

Through its power, maya, which does not exist in truth, completely
deludes even those with powerful and sharp intellects, making them
believe that it alone exists.  She smiles within herself, feeling proud
of her victory!

Bhagavan Ramana also narrated another interesting incident.  While
translating the original Forty Verses into Sanskrit, Kavyakanta Ganapati
Sastri, it seems, demurred to the 12th Verse which says:

"True Knowledge is devoid of both knowledge and ignorance."

Almost of all us also think that knowledge, book knowledge is necessary
for understanding Brahman.  But Brahman is beyond the words of Upanishads, as they themselves declare.  Bhagavan Ramana has also
warned us, in Who am I?, that since "Thaan" is within five sheaths,
how to enquire it in books which are outside the sheaths?  Hence
limitless reading of books is of no use.

When Nayana, like most of us, had the doubt whether "Muruganar could
say that Knowledge, is beyond knowledge and ignorance, and even
pandits get deluded on this, by Maya,", Bhagavan Ramana reminded
Nayana that he(Nayana)  himself had written the commentary for the
27th Verse of Upadesa Saram, which expressed the same idea. Then
Nayana was satisfied!

(Source: Guru Vachaka Kovai, Tr. and commentary by David Godman,
Avadhuta Foundation, P.O. Box 296, Boulder, Colorodo, USA. Copies
can be had from Sri Ramanasramam, Tiruvannamalai.)

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 30, 2008, 02:44:13 PM
The Verse 28 of Upadesa Saram, in Tamil reads as under:

Thanadhiyal yadhena Thaan therigir pin
Anadhi Ananda Sat Undhipara
Akanda Chit Anandam Undhipara.

(Thanadhiyal - one's true nature.  Yadhena - what is it, thus enquiring.
Thaan therigir pin - if one abides in that as Being.
Anadhi Ananda Sat Undhipara - with no beginning and no end.
Akanda Chit Ananda   - unbroken consicousness and bliss.)

Osborne/K. Swaminathan has translated as under:

Having known one's nature one abides
As being with no beginning and no end
In unbroken consciousness and bliss.

We have seen earlier, that in Verse 22, Bhagavan Ramana said about
the Real or Sat aspect of Brahman.  In Verse 23, He again said about
Awareness - Ananda - bliss aspect.  Here in Verse 22, Bhagavan Ramana is
saying about both Chit and Ananda aspects, the consciousness and

Hindu sastras believe that the state of the Self or Brahman is Existence-
Knowledge-Bliss, unlike Buddhists who call it as Void or Sunya.  This
is purely experiential and no one who has not experienced It can say
it in words.  We have seen how Annamalai Swami, who was helping
Bhagavan Ramana to bathe, was suddenly embraced by Bhagavan
Ramana while explaining the bliss of ganja, and Annamalai Swami
stood speechelss for more than 15 minutes.  And that is experience.
Many devotees by the mere look of Bhagavan Ramana have experienced
this bliss.  Lakshmana Swami, Wolter Kiers, Sri Sadhu Om, Papaji are
a few examples. 

Bhagavan Ramana also says in Who am I? to Sivaprakasam Pillai,
under Question No. 27 as under:

Q : What is the difference between enquiry and meditation?

B:  Inquiry consists in retaining the mind in the Self.  Meditation consists
in thinking that one's Self is Brahman,  Existence-Knowledge-Bliss.

When Vaishnvaites told Bhagavan Ramana that they did not want to
merge into the Self but merely 'see' Narayana as a child tasting sugar
candy.  Bhagavan Ramana said, that "becoming sugar candy" is a
state of non duality, and tasting it from outside implies duality.  Unless
you become sugar candy yourself, you cannot describe the greatness
of sugar candy, which is far greater than 'tasting'.  But this is
experiential and not descriptive.  Saint Tayumanavar says in his poem:
"If you become That, That will tell you what is Its nature?"  Here again
'telling' is a poetic expression for 'experiencing.'

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 30, 2008, 03:20:38 PM
The Verse 28 continues:

Bhagavan Ramana has explained to devotees as to the nature of
the Self within, Sat Chit Ananda, the Existence-Knowledge and
Bliss, on many occasions.  These are codfied in Padamalai of
Muruganar. For example in Verse 137 while describing the ghora
vritti, rajasic mind, David Godman says about the following entry,
in Suri Nagamma's letters to Sri Ramanasramam, entry dated
18th May 1947.

Devotee:  Brahman is said to be sat-chit-ananda swraupa, the
true nature of being-consciousness-bliss.  What does it mean?

Bhagavan: Yes. That is so. That which is, is only Sat.  This is called
Brahman.  The lustre of Sat is Chit and and its nature is Ananda.
These are not different from Sat. All the three together are known
as Sat-Chit-Ananda.  It is the same in regard to attributes of the Jiva,
Sattvam, Ghoram and Jadam.... Sattvam that remains when the other
two are removed, is only Sattvam, Brahman or Sakti or anything you like!
If you know that that is yourself, everything is lustrous, everything is
bliss, ananda.

Again, David Godman while describing a Padamalai verse on mukti
and mounam, gives this entry of Day by Day of Devaraja Mudaliar,
dated 22nd November 1945.

Devotee:  Why do we imagine that we are all bound and that we
are having imagine that we are having all these pains?

Bhagavan: Enquire to whom has this ignorance come and you will
find it never came to you and that you have always been that Sat-
Chit-Ananda.  One performs all sorts of penance to become that
what one already is.  All effort is simply to get rid of this vipareeta
buddhi, this mistaken impression, that one is limited and bound by
the woes of samsara.

Again, while commenting on the Verse 41 of Padamalai, under
Advice to Sadhana, David Godman makes the following entry of
Who am I?

"Bhagavan distinguished between meditation from self enquiry.
Keeping the mind fixed in the Self at all times is called self enquiry,
whereas thinking oneself to be Brahman which is Sat Chit Ananda,
is meditation.  Eventually all that one has learnt will have to be forgotten."

(Source: Padamalai. David Godman. Avadhuta Foundation. Boulder,
Colorodo. USA. Also sold by Sri Ramanasramam, Tiruvannamalai.)

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 30, 2008, 03:41:05 PM
The Verse 28 of Upadesa Saram, continues....

Muruganar has also explained Bhagavan Ramana's views on
Sat-Chit-Ananda, in Guru Vachaka Kovai.  David Godman's
wonderful commentary on GVK mentions these entries.

Under 737 and 738 of GVK, Muruganar says:  "Meditation is only
the mental imagination of conceiving oneself to be the supreme
reality that shines as Sat-Chit-Ananda.  Enquiry is to establish the
mind in the Self such that the seed of false delusion (the mind)
perishes like the grains in the milling querns.

Always keeping the mind fixed in the Self alone is called self-
enquiry, whereas meditation is thinking oneself to be Brahman,
which is Sat Chit Ananda. (Who am I? Essay Version as given by
Sri Sadhu Om, in the Path of Sri Ramana, Part I.)

Guru Vachaka Kovai, verses 971 and 972 also speak of Sat Chit

Intellectual knowing is the infatuation of the mind, that wants to
know the non-Self.  By checking and reversing it, the mind reaches
the Heart, whose nature is to exist unchanging and without corruption,
whereupon beautiful Sat Chit Ananda is realized. 

When the mischievous movements of the mind, which is (in truth),
consciousness (chit) are stilled, it will experience itself as Sat, (being).
The remaining aspects, (ananda), the supreme bliss, that abounds
when sat (being) and chit-sakti (the power of consciousness) merge
-- can it be other than the Self?

Under Verse 1176 of GVK, Muruganar again says:

Do not vainly argue through the reasoning power of intellect, which
ignores the Self and clings to the non-Self..... Only the mouna that
shines forever as the unfailing experience of Sat Chit Ananda is
true religion.

Under Verse 1221 of GVK, Muruganar again says:

In a mind that enquires into itself, through investigating, Who am I,
that am bound? the thought of bondage completely falls away.         
Consequently the thought of release from bondage also ends.

Bhagavan says:  We are all in reality Sat Chit Ananda. But we imagine,
that we are all bound and are having all these pains.

(Source: Guru Vachaka Kovai. Commentary by David Godman.
Avadhuta Foundation., Boulder. Colorado. USA. Also sold by
Sri Ramanasramam, Tiruvannamalai. )

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 31, 2008, 10:59:40 AM
The Verse 29, of Upadesa Saram, in Tamil reads as under:

Pandha veedu atra para sukam utravaru
Indha nilai nitral Undhipara,
Irai PaNi nitralam Undhipara.

(Pandha - bondage; veedu - release, liberation;
atra - without, beyond; para sukam - state of bliss;
Irai PaNi - service to God; nitral - steadfast in.)

Osborne's/Prof.K. Swaminathan's translation:

Abiding in this state of bliss,
Beyond bondage and release,
Is steadfastness
In service of the Lord.

This verse speaks about two things.  One is bondage and another
is release or liberation.  The other important word is Irai PaNi
nitral -staying in service to God or Lord.

We all think that we have to get rid of bondage that is life and
get a release or liberation in Moksha or Kailasa or Vaikunta.  This
is, according to Bhagavan Ramana's Upadesa is totally incorrect.

What is bondage?  Bhagavan Ramana says (in Guru Vachaka Kovai
Verse 380), that the wearing away and the annihilation of the
sorrowful and illusory freedom of the jiva, which takes the body
as 'I' is alone the attainment of the sorrow-free and authentic
freedom of the Self.  This is the wisdom that is present equally in
all the religions, reconciling them one with another.

Verse 381 says, the embodied existence that come to you through
the error of not knowing the Self will not leave by any means, other
than Self Knowledge.  Only true jivas, wherein the deluding ananda-
maya-kosa whose nature is to veil has perished and ceased will
liberate you from bondage. 

Verse 382 says, that Supreme Jnanis who do not see any bondage
other than the mental movements, chitta vrittis, that arise to
profusion also do not see any liberation other than a mind in which
all chitta vrittis have died without leaving any trace. This is their
verdict on bondage and liberation.

Bhagavan Ramana had already said in Who am I?  : When the mind
appears, the world appears and there is dhukkam.  When the world
disappears, after the disappearance of the mind, there is Anandam.
When Swarupam shines, the world would not appear.  When the
world appears Swarupam will not shine.  These two are rope and
the snake.

(Courtesy: David Godman's English commentary on GVK.)

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 31, 2008, 11:14:53 AM
The Verse 29 continues....

Guru Vachaka Kovai Verse 383, further says, that the impure mind,
that is frightened and perplexed, as if it has been intoxicated by
drinking alcohol, is alone the jivatma, the individual self, that is
mentally confused and confounded, believing that it is really bound
by the bond of karma.  If the mind, without desiring and revelling
in sense objects perceived through "suttarivu" (literally means,
the knowledge that is obtained by showing your index finger outside),
abides in the Self state without slipping from it, then that exteremely
pure mind alone will be the Paramatma, Supreme Self, that shines,
in a clarified state, as the attribute-free Consciousness.

Muruganar directly explains the Verse 29, of Upadesa Saram, in his
verse 889 of Guru Vachaka Kovai.  That reality is also the transcendental
firmament.  The Maha Vakya that proclaims, You are That, is also
that transcendental firmament. Nothing become separate from that
fullness of being, which exists and shines as the universal Swarupa,
nor does anything new merge with it.

Even that attainement of liberation, in truth, does not exist.  Since
bondage is a concept, liberation too is a concept.  There is neither
a Jnani nor an ajnani, distinct from Swarupa. In this state of Supreme
Truth,  the teachings of the Maha Vakyas also does not exist!  The
thought of being separate from Swarupa, one's nature is false, as is
the tapas that are performed to get rid of that misery.  The state of
Jnana, which is (the idea of) getting re-established in the Self
is also false, Swarupa alone exists at all times.

(Source: Guru Vachaka Kovai. Tr. and Commentary by David Godman,
Avadhuta Foundation, Boulder. Colorado. USA.)

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 31, 2008, 11:40:27 AM
The Verse 29 of Upadesa Saram continues....

What is this state? That what which is beyond bondage and liberation?
Where there is no going and coming?  Where there is nothing else, the
state of the One without a second?

GVK Verse 1005 says that this is Bhuma.  The state in which nothing
is seen as another object, the state in which nothing is heard as
another sound, the state in which nothing is known as another entity,
(e.g. Kailasa or Vaikunta), know this state to be Bhuma.

This verse is rendering of Chandogya Upanishad (7.24.1). Bhagavan
referred to the verse and explained what the term Bhuma denotes
in the conversation, mentioned in Talks No. 98 and 68. (Munagala

Bhagavan: Bhuma alone is. It is infinite.  There aries from it, this
finite consciousness taking on an upadhi (limitation).  This is abhasa
or reflection. Merge this individual consciousness into the Supreme
One. That is what should be done.

Devotee: Bhuma is an attribute of Supreme Consicousness.

Bhagavan: Bhuma is the Supreme.  yatra naanyat pasyati yatra
nannyat srunoti sa Bhuma. Where one does not see any other,
hears nothing, it is perfection. It is indefinable and indescribable.
It is as it is. 

Devotee:  There is a vastness experienced.  Probably it is just below
Bhuma but close to it.  Am I right?

Bhagavan:  Bhuma alone is.  Nothing else. It is the mind which says
all this, (just below... closse to it....!)

Again the Verse 1006 of GVK says:  Only the infinite Bhuma, the
non dual Jnana wherein seeing, hearing, and the fragmentary-
natured perceiver who perceives them suffer annihilation, is
the unalloyed happiness of intense peace. 

The verse 1015 of GVK says:  The Parasakti (supreme power), that
remains as the predicate (of the Self), takes all the perceptions
of the five senses -- what is seen, what is heard, what is eaten,
what is smelled and what is touched -- as its objects, but that
which exists as the subject (even for this Parasakti, supreme power)
is the space of Jnana, the wonderful state.

Matter             Energry

Self or Sivam  Sakti or Uma
the Space       sensual activities
       Jnana       Maya   
       Subject    Predicate

(Courtesy:  Guru Vachaka Kovai, Tr. and commentary by David Godman. Avadhuta Foundation, Boulder, Colorado. USA. Copies can also be had
from Sri Ramanasramam, Tirvannamalai.)

Arunachala Siva.           
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 31, 2008, 12:07:59 PM
The Verse 29 continues.....

Padamalai (Garland for the Holy Feet), by Muruganar which forms
Volume 9 of Sri Ramana Jnana Bodham, also speaks of the concept
of bondage, release and silence.

The Verse 1698 of Padamalai says:

In the Paramartha Swarupa, which shines as Reality, delusion
not real, it is just imagined. 

Paramartha means the highest truth.  According to Bhagavan Ramana,
the highest truth is that NO ONE IS UNENLIGHTENED!  Since the
individual bveings and their assorted imaginary problems do not really
exist.  The best known formulation of this position is a verse by
Gaudapada.  Bhagavan Ramana translated it from Sanskrit into Tamil
and had it included in his Collected Works. (Stray Verse 9 of Arthur
Osborne's Collected Works).  This is also the verse 28 of Bhagavan
Ramana within Guru Vachaka Kovai. of Muruganar between his
verses 1227 and 1228.  Bhagavan Ramana's 28 verses are interlaced
between 1254 verses of Guru Vachaka Kovai.

There is no creation, no destruction, none bound, none seeking,
striving, gaining freedom.  Know that this is the Supreme Truth.

In the Parmartha Swarupa, which is the Space of Grace, bondage,
which thrives on ignorance, is a defect of the mind.

In the experience of one's own true Jnana Swarupa, the ideas of
bondage and liberation do not exist.

Except in one's own imagination, (bhavana), there is no attainment
of liberation from bondage in the ultimate state of Supreme Truth.

The Power of the Presence Volume 3, quotes the following conversation
from Day by Day of Devaraja Mudaliar, (dated 22nd Nov. 1945)

Bhagavan: All questions relating to mukti, liberation, are inadmissible
because mukti, liberation means release from bondage, which implies
the present existence of bondage.  There is no bondage and therefore
no mukti either.

Question:  The sastras speak of it and its grades.

Bhagavan:  The sastras are not meant for the wise because they
do not need them.  The ignorant do not want them. Only the
mumukshus (those aspiring for liberation) look over to the scriptures.
That means that the sastras are neither for wisdom nor for ignorance!

Bhagavan:  We are all in reality Sat Chit Ananda.  But we imagine,
we are bound and are having all these pains.

Question:  Why do we imagine so?  Why does this ignorance or ajnana
come to us?

Bhagavan: Enquire to whom this ignorance come and you will find
it never came to you and that you have always been that Sat Chit Ananda. One performs all sorts of penances to become what one already is.
All effort is simply to get rid of this viparita buddhi, this mistaken
impression that one is limited and bound by the woes of samsara.

In Padamalai, Muruganar again says:

Thoughts such as bondage and liberation, which are essentially non-
existent, appear in the state of pramada (forgetfulness of the Self.).

The above is from conversation dated, 8th Jan 1946 from Day by Day of Devaraja Mudaliar.

Ulladu Narpadu Verse 39 (Reality in forty verses, Sad Darsanam)
also describes the same truth.

(Source:  Guru Vachaka Kovai, Tr. and Commentary by David
Godman.  Padamalai - Tr. and Commentary by David Godman.)

Arunachala Siva.               
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 31, 2008, 12:36:51 PM
The Verse 29 of Upadesa Saram continues....

The Verse 39 of Sad Darsanam, should be read in conjunction with
Verse 29 of Upadesa Saram.  This is what is described in Verse 610
of Padamalai of Muruganar.

Only so long as one thinks like a mad man, 'I am a bound one',
will thoughts of bondage and liberation remain.  But, seeing oneself,
'Who is this bound one?' the eternally liberated and ever attained
Self alone will exist. When the thought of bondage cannot remain,
can the thought of liberation will remain?

Padamalai Vers 548 reads:

If bondage and liberation are creations of the mind, all the experiences
of states manifested through 'suttarivu' that is pointing outwards,
are like wise concepts.

Padamalai Verse 2205 says:

The origin of the concepts of bondage and liberation is in the ego,
the deception that is the cause of the pairs of opposites. (dwandha

Padamalai Verse 1503 states:

Separation and union exist only through the ignorance of the jiva.
They do not exist in the nature of the Real, which is Jnana only.

Padamalai Verse 1000 states:

If you enquire into the Self and come to know it, in that vision
of the Self, the age old primal illusion of bondage will become
a story long forgotten.

The following conversation is recorded in Letters of Suri Nagamma,
dated 20th Feb 1946.

Question:  Is it possible to attain moksha, deliverence, while still
in the body?

Bhagavan:  What is moksha?  Who attains it? Unless there is bondage,
how can there be moksha?  Who has that bondage?

Questioner:  Me.

Bhagavan: Who really are you?  How did you get the bondage?
And why? If you first know that, then we can think of attaining
moksha, while in this body?

Padamalai Verse 1255 reads:

In the hearts of those, who have investigated and come to know
Reality, as it actually is, liberation in all its clarity is eternally

Padamalai Verse 913 states:

What is always natural to everyone is liberation, which is bliss.
Bondage is delusion of mind, a false sensation.

(Guru Vachaka Kovai and Padamalai, Muruganar. Tr. and Commentary by David Godman, Avadhuta Foundation, Boulder, Colorado. USA.
Sri Ramana Jnana Bodham, Ramana Kendra Delhi.  Copies can also
be had from Sri Ramanasramam, Tiruvannamalai.)

Arunachala Siva.         
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 31, 2008, 01:24:20 PM
The Verse 29 of Upadesa Saram continues....

Natananda has compiled the conversation between Bhagavan Ramana
and His devotees, under a title called Upadesa Manjari.  Since Bhagavan
Ramana's view is always the One without a second, the same idea
had been given by Him also in Upadesa Manjari, Spiritual Instruction,
in English. 

Question:  If this is the nature of liberation, moksha, why do some
scriptures connect it with the body and say that the individual soul
can attain liberation only when it does not leave the body?

Bhagavan: It is only if bondage is real that liberation and the nature
of its experiences have to be considered. So far as the Self, Purusha
is concerned it has really no bondage in any of the four states. As
bondage is merely a verbal assumption according to emphatic proclamation
of the Vedanta, how can the question of liberaion, which depends upon
the question of bondage, arise when there is no bondage?  Without
knowing this truth, to enquire into the nature of bondage and liberation,
is like enquiring into the non-existent height, colour etc., of a barren
woman's son or the horns of a hare!

Question: If that is so, do not the descriptions of bondage and release
found in the scriptures become irrelevant and untrue?

Bhagavan:  No. They do not. On the contrary, the delusion of bondage
fabricated by ignorance, from time immemorial can be removed only by
knowledge, and for this purpose the term 'liberation' (mukti) has been
usually accepted. That is all.  The fact that the characteristics of liberation
are described in different ways to proves that they are all imaginary.

Question: If that is so, are not all efforts such as study (literally,
hearing, sravana) reflection etc., are useless?

Bhagavan:  No. They are not.  The firm conviction that there is neither
bondage nor liberation is the supreme purpose of all efforts. As this
purpose of seeing boldly, through direct experience, that bondage and
liberation do not exist, cannot be achieved except with the aid
of the aforesaid practices, these efforts are useful.

Question: Is there any authority for saying that there is neither
bondage nor liberation?

Bhagavan:  This is decided on the strength of experience and not
merely on the strength of the scriptures.

Question: If it is experienced how is it experienced?

'Bondage' and 'liberation' are more linguistic terms. They have no
reality of their own.  Therefore, they cannot be function of their own
accord. It is necessary to accept the existence of their own accord.
It is necessary to accept the existence of some basic thing of which
they are the modifications.  If one enquires, "for whom is there bondage
and liberation?" it will be seen, "they are for me".  If one enquires,
"Who am I?", one will see that there is no such thing as the "I". It
will be as clear as an amalaka, (Indian gooseberry) on one's hand
that what remains is one's real being. As this truth will be naturally
and clearly experienced by thosse who leave aside mere verbal
discussions and enquire into themselves inwardly, there is no doubt
that all realized persons uniformly see neither bondage nor liberation so far as the true Self is concerned.

Question:  If truly there is neither bondage nor liberation what is the reason for the actual experience of joys and sorrows?

Bhagavan:  They appear to be real only when one turns aside from
one's real nature.  They do not really exist.

Question:  Is it possible for everyone to know directly without doubt
what exactly is one's true nature?

Bhagavan: Undoubtedly it is possible.

Question:  How?

Bhagavan:  It is the experience of everyone that even in the states
of deep sleep, fainting, etc., when the entire universe, moving and
stationary, beginning with earth and ending with the unmanifested
(prakriti), disappear, he does not disappear.  Therefore the state
of Pure Being, which is common to all and true nature.  The confusion is that all experiences in the enlightened as well as the ignorant state, which may be described by newer and newer words, are opposed to one's real nature.

(Source: Upadesa Manjari. Spiritual Instruction. Compiled by
Natananda.  The Collected Works. English Translation by Arthur

Arunachala Siva.                   
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 31, 2008, 03:29:17 PM
The Verse 29 of Upadesa Saram, continues.....

Padamalai Verse 415:

The ego alone is bondage, and one's own 'swarupa' free of the
congestion of the ego, is liberation.

Padamalai Verse 2877:

There is no greater deception than (believing that) liberation, which
is ever present as one's own nature, will be attained at some later

Padamalai Verse 2184:

Even the desire for liberation, is work of delusion. Therefore, remain
still, Summa Iru, (Tamil).

Padamalai Verse 1439:

If you enquire into and realize Atma-Swarupa, the Reality, as it
actually is, it will be clearly known that liberation is eternally attained.

Padamalai Verse 2570:

The true "mukti" that banishes the tormenting triple miseries,
(tapatraya) is abandoning everything, not attaining something.

The entry dated 8th January 1946 of "Letters" by Suri Nagamma says:

Question: We have come here and are staying here for the same
purpose (of attaining moksha).  We do not want anything more.
It is enough if you give us moksha.

Bhagavan:  If your renounce and give up everything, what remains
is only moksha.  What is there for others to give you?  It is there always.
That IS.

Question:  We do not known all that.  Bhagavan Himself must give us

(The questioner then left the Hall.)

Bhagavan:  I should give them moksha, they say. It is enough if moksha alone is given to them. Is that not itself a desire?  If you give up all the
desires that our have, what remains is only moksha.

Padamalai Verse 1716:

The way to liberation is knowing Consciousness and abiding there
without slipping from Consciousness.  

Padamalai Verse 834:

That which abides (in the Heart) is liberation, the true and unlimited
supreme bliss.  Only through that being-consciousness will you attain

Padamalai Verse 1988:

The excellence of peace, which is the clarity of Consciousness, is alone
the greatness of intensely blissful liberation.

Padamalai Verse 1888:

The experience of pure Consciousness, one's own Swarupa, is the
bliss of liberation.  The misery of bondage is total ignorance.

Padamalai Verse 694:

Unless ignorance, the veiling, is completely destroyed by Jnana, it
is certain that there will be no liberation.

Padamalai Verse 2580:

The cessation of the feeling of bondage, which arises from the
I-am-the-body delusion, is soverignty over (the world of) liberation,
the freedom of the Self, Pure Consciounsess, the Supreme Bliss.

(Source: Padamalai. Muruganar. Tr. and Commentary by David

Arunachala Siva.              
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 31, 2008, 03:55:26 PM
The Verse 29 of Upadesa Saram continues....

Bhagavan says in Padamalai verses, that knowing consciousness
is liberation.  He has also said that Knowledge is beyond ignorance
and knowledge.  He has also said that the seeker should go beyond
bondage and liberation.  How to proceed towards this?  How to go
beyond all the dyads, misery and happiness, pain and pleasure, good
and bad and even bondage and liberation.  His succinct advice is
Summa Iru, in Tamil.  Be still or Remain still or Just Be.  This is the
supreme Silence.  It is not silence of the tongue or the body.  It is
total silence of the mind.  Just be.  Silence is the fulcrum or the
midpoint in a  balance, where there is no swing towards either of the
two pans, which are dyads mentioned above.

Padamalai Verse 2221 says:

Supreme liberation will shine as Atma Swarupa of one remains still.

Maharshi's Gospel says:

Question:  Who then is God?

Bhagavan:  The Self is God.  I AM is God. If God be apart from the
Self, He must be a selfless God!  This is absurd.  All that is required
to realize the Self is to be still.  What can be easier than that?  Hence,
Atma Vidya (Self Knowledge) is the easiest to attain.

Padamalai Verse 1217 says:

Since becoming established is the state of the Self is both the means
and the goal to be attained, remain still.

Though this is Bhagavan's highest and simplest Upadesa, he conceded
that for many people, it was an impossible command to execute.

Talks No.322 records like this:

Question:  What should one do in order to remain free from thoughts
as advised by you?  Is it only the enquiry "Who am I?"

Bhagavan:  Only to remain still. Do it and see.

Question:  It is impossible.

Bhagavan: Exactly. For the same reason, the enquiry 'Who am I?'
is advised.

In Day by Day entry dated 11th Jan 1946 it says:

Of course, every body, every book says, "Summa Iru" that is, Be
quiet or still.  But it is not easy.  That is why all this effort is necessary.
Even if we find one who has at once achieved the mouna or surpeme
state indicated by Summa Iru, you may take it that the effort necessary
has already been finished in a previous life.   

Padamalai Verse 2261 says:

It is impossible to merge with the feet of Lord Arunachala, unless one
remains still, with the mind consumed and annihilated.

Bhagavan in Talks 334 says:

Stillness is total surrender without a vestige of individuality.
Stillness will prevail and there will be no agitation of mind. Agitation
of mind is the cause of desire, the senses of doership and personality.
It that is stopped there is quiet.

Padamalai  748 says:

Mouna -- which is not only the means to liberation but also that
which abides as the very nature of liberation itself -- has a matchless

(Source: Padamalai. Muruganar. Tr. and Commentary by David
Godman, Avadhuta Foundation.  Boulders. Colarado. USA.  Copies
can be had also from Sri Ramanasramam, Tiruvannamalai.)

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 31, 2008, 06:25:15 PM
The Verse 29 of Upadesa Saram, has got a phrase (in Tamil version),
called Irai PaNi Nitral, which means the destruction of the Jiva's sense
of doership, abiding in the service of God.  The loss of Jiva Bodha is the
loss of individuality.  This "irai paNi nitral"  invariably finds a place in
all Saiva Siddhanta literature.  Saint Manikkavachagar speaks of four
types of service to Siva.  He says in Tiru Padai Ezhuchi, the Rising of the
Holy Army, in Tiruvachakam,

Let the servitors go first in the front army,
Let the devotees go next in the middle army,
Let the yogis march then behind them,
And let the siddhas go as the back army....

In order to vanquish the maya and reach Siva loka!

These are four types.  The servitors are the ones who clean the temple
precincts, prepare the lamps, bring water from the well for abulations,
pluck flowers and make garlands and supply food and water outside the
temple precincts.

The devotees sing the praise of Siva and do archanas. the chanting of
holy names of Siva.  The yogis perform raja yoga practice to bring
Siva and Uma to the sahasrara.  The siddhas, Jnanis speak and praise
the Sivam, which is different from Siva, the formelss Effulgence of Siva!

Muruganar brings this phrase in Guru Vachaka Kovai as mentioned by
Bhagavan Ramana in Verse 29 of Upadesa Saram, and do a synthesis
of Saiva Siddhanta and Vedanta. 

Bhagavan Ramana Himself explains this in Upadesa Manjari, of

Question:  What is the end of devotion (bhakti) and the path of
Saiva Siddhanta that is, Siva worship?

Bhagavan: It is to learn the truth that all one's actions performed
with unselfish devotion, with the aid of purified instruments of body,
speech and mind, in the capacity of the servant of the Lord, become
the Lord's actions and to stand forth free from the sense of 'I' and
'mine.'  This is also the truth of what the Saiva Siddhantins of God,
call Para bhakti or Irai PaNi nitral.

Question:  What is the end of the path of knowledge, Jnana or Vedanta?

Bhagavan: It is to know the truth that the 'I' is not different from the
Lord, Iswara and to be free from the feeling of being the doer, karturtva, ahamkara.

IS THE SAME?       
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on December 31, 2008, 07:03:13 PM
The Verse 29 of Upadesa Saram continues....

Sorry!  I have typed 'send' by mistake.

Bhagavan:  Whatever the means, the destruction of the sense,
'I' and 'mine' is the goal.  And as these are interdependent, the
destruction of either of them causes the destruction of the other.
Therefore, in order to achieve that state of Silence, which is beyond
thought and word, either the path of knowledge which removes the
sense of 'I' or the path of devotion which removes the sense of 'mine',
will suffice.  So there is no doubt that the end of the paths of devotion
and knowledge is one and the same.

Guru Vachaka Kovai:  Muruganar's explanation for Verse 413 says:

Appar sang, 'As I entred holy Aiyaru*, my fees leaving no trace...'
In this song, the real meaning of Aiyaru, (*even though it apparently
means the Siva temple, Tiru Aiyaru, near Thanjavur, where the five
tributatries of Kaveri are flowing), is the place of the Heart, where
the pathways of five senses - body, mouth, eyes, nose and ears --
lead inward and subside.

GVK verse 414 reads:

Clinging to the feet of the Supreme Lord to effect the complete
destruction of the Jiva's sense of doing is the union that takes the
form of devotion.  This is the path that shines as the bliss of Jnana.
The union that takes the form of abiding in it, (Irai PaNi Nitral),
effecting the loss of Jiva bodha (the individual consciousness)
through the enquiry 'Who am I?' is the path of Vedanta.

Bhagavan Ramana also says in Who am I?, (under Question No. 18)

Sivaprakasam Pillai:  Of the devotees, who is the greatest?

Bhagavan:  He who gives up to the Self that is God is the most
excellent devotee.  Giving one's self up to God means remaining
constantly in the Self without giving room for the rise of any thoughts
other than he thought of the Self.

Under Question No. 16, when Sivaprakasam Pillai asked:

Q: What is the nature of the Self?

Bhagavan:  ...... The Self is that where there is absolutely no 'I-thought'.
That is called Silence. The Self itself is the world, the Self itself is the
'I'. The Self itself is God. All is Siva, the Self.

Guru Vachaka Kovai Verse 416 says:

This is the proper means for the jiva, who suffers caught in the
kartrutva, the feeling that one is performing activities, to rejoice
in union with Sivam. Hear it!  Realizing that jiva, Iswara and the
world are imagined appearances in Brahman, like the appearance
of silver in a pearl-oyster shell, reject them!

In GVK 468, Muruganar says that when Draupadi, the chaste queen,
gave up her hold on the her sari, and raised her hands with folded
palms together over her head, praying, 'Krishna, you alone are my
refuge now!' through the sweet grace of Lord Krishna, the enchanter
upon this good earth, the sari protecting her honour grew endlessly,
and the strong and wicked Dushchadhana fell down exhaused, as if

Krishna did not come to her rescue, till Draupadi was holding the
sari with her hands, as if her hands would protect her honour.  When
she raised the hands and left the sari without depending on her own
kartrutva,  praying for Krishna, the Lord came, because she has totally surrendered, with the conviction that it was the Lord who could protect
her and not her 'I' and 'mine'.

There is a Tamil poet who sang:  The distance between Dwaraka and
Hastinapur was more than 1000 miles, but there was a brisk sari

In Tiruvachakam, Tiruvembavai, Manikkavachagar sings:

Let our hands not do any work that is not yours.
Let us our eyes not see the day and the night.
If after merging with you in our total devotion,
Why should we care in what direction, the Sun rises?

(Source: Guru Vachaka Kovai, Tr. and Commentary. David Godman.
Upadesa Manjari, in the Collected Works.)

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on January 01, 2009, 11:09:51 AM
The Verse 30 of Upadesa Saram, reads as under in Tamil:

Yan atru iyalvathu therin ethuvathu
Thanar tavam enran Undhipara.
Thaanam Ramanesan Undhipara.

(Yan atru - without the sense of 'I' the ego;
iyalvathu therin - if one understands living ever;
ethuvathu - That;  Thanar tavam - penance, tapas;
Thaanam Ramanesan - Ramana the Self;)

Osborne's/K.Swaminathan's translation:

All ego gone
Living as That alone
Is penance good for growth,
Sings Ramana, the Self.

Here, Bhagavan Ramana, the Self uses two important words.
Tapas - To remain in the Self is the penance.  Yan atru iyalvathu -
without the sense of "I" or ego.

In Sri Ramana Ashottaram, there is only holy name saying:

Om  Naisargika Mahathapasve Namah:

Here Viswanatha Swami says that the greatest tapas of Bhagavan
Ramana was to stay without the ego!  He completely vanquished
the sense of "I" and remained for 54 years in Tiruvannamalai.
Bhagavan Ramana whose teachings are consistently the same for
all the years, is also described as the One without Ego, constantly
in Brahman, by Muruganar, who has written this last verse.

What are Muruganar's description of tapas as told by Bhagavan?
We shall see in the next post.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on January 01, 2009, 11:40:22 AM
Muruganar says as explanation to his verse 309 of Guru Vachaka Kovai:

Unlike that perfect worship (of staying in the Self), all other kinds of
worship which cannot be performed continuously with all the senses
and the mind, are limited and incomplete.  However, they also have
as their ultimate goal the egoless state of abiding in the service of

Bhagavan:  "What is experienced if one knows that which remains
after 'I' has ceased to exist, that alone is excellent tapas" - thus
said Lord Ramana, who is the Self.

In Verse 311, Muruganar says:

Bear in mind that the true puja to the Jnana Guru is only the Self-
abidance in which the vasana-free mouna, Silence, surges once
the disciple-consciousness that proclaimed itself as 'I' is destroyed
by the raging fire of the consciousness of the Jnana Guru, he who
is God Himself.

In Verse 315, Murugnar says:

When the ice of the ego-consciousness that is limited to the form
of the body dissolves in the ocean of Guru-consciousness that is
the experience of the Self which exists and shine as the one savour
of love, know that this is Guru-puja. 

Bhagavan  also sings in Verse 101 of Aksharamana Malai:

As snow inn water melts, let me dissolve as love in you who are
all love, O Arunachala!

Under Verse 396 of Guru Vachaka Kovai, David Godman mentions Bhagavan Ramana's words:

Destruction of mind alone is 'tapas.'  This alone is one's duty.  One
who is doing his own work will not pay attention to any one else's
work.  One should never give room for swerving from the thought
of the Self.  However many duties one may have, at all other times
not meant for performing duties, one must perform only self-enquiry.
While standing, sitting, and taking food one can do 'vichara', can one
not?  If the mind happens to forget the enquiry, "Who am I?" because
of vasanas, when it remembers the enquiry, it should try not to lose
hold of the enquriy again.  (The Power of the Presence, Volume 1.)

(Source: Guru Vachaka Kovai. Muruganar. Tamil. Tr. and Commentary
by David Godman, Avadhuta Foundation, Boulder, Colorado. USA.)

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on January 01, 2009, 11:56:05 AM
The Verse 30 of Upadesa Saram continues....

Verse 408 of GVK says:

The wealth of divine grace, the unvarying true Jnana remains forever
within every Jiva as its very nature.  The purpose of 'tapas' is to know
that this wealth remains merged within you and to experience it fully.
It is not for creating it, (the Jnana) anew.

Verse 409 of GVK says:

Restraining the ignorant ego-mind within the Heart so that it does
not wander in concert with the five senses, and confining it there
so that it becomes established as one with pure Sivam -- this is the
nature of true tapas.  Thus, say those who are perfected in true

Verse 410 of GVK says:

The Atma Vritti shines, conquering all the differentiated manifestations,
brought about by ignorance, transforming them into Self alone.  If one
examines the matter, the unique and unsurpassed hallmark of 'tapas'
is when the current of Atma Vritti becomes perpetually uninterrupted.

There are again two entries in Talks of Munagala Venkatramaiah.

Talk No. 629:- Bhagavan explained that there are two kinds of vrittis,
or modes of mind. Vishaya Vritti, in which mental activity is focussed
on objects.  And Atma Vritti where the subject "I" is the focus of attention. The first may give way to the second and that is the aim of abhyasa,

Talks 631:- Bhagavan said, "When these objective phenomena cease,
there remains Atma Vritti or the subjective vritti that is the same as
Jnana.  Without it, (Atma Vritti), ajnana (ignorance) will not cease."

Verse 412 of GVKa says:

Only mouna, the experience of Sivam that shines as Consciousness,
the Supreme, is the true 'tapas' thorugh which one becomes the Reality,
the Supreme.

(Source: Guru Vachaka Kovai, Tamil. Muruganar. Tr. and Commentary
by David Godman, Avadhuta Foundation, Boulder, Colorado. USA.)

Upadesa Saram, my posts, concluded.

Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya Namah:

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on February 04, 2009, 05:46:36 PM
Dear Srk Udai,
                  It is a good thing that you want to comment on Upadesa Saram afresh.
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: matthias on February 04, 2009, 06:44:02 PM
Again iam so thankfull that bhagawan incarnated some years ago.....his words are always so direct so immidiate...and so clear

all verses in this book are clear and to the point all vibrate ultimate wisdome

verse one is as important and beautiful as verse 30

I think that verse one is about a simple insight

we ave the jiva.....or better the ego who is identified with action, who is compoed of action and thoughts....or better thoughts leading to action

this energy is a dualistic energy

verse one just gives a very simple and direct understanding: this dualistic energy is relative (an illusion if you are totally enlightened, for me it is realtive, not fix, not true and not untrue<----I think that sitting in my chair and saying the eog is an illusion without beeing the thruth that I speak makes me a liar)

so bhagawan makes it clear that this dualistic energy is just one possible way of seeing the world and maybe the worst...(he doeas not say this)

he just says that it is illusory, thats it it is wheter good nor bad...

so we may be identified with action and thinking.....but this will slowly cease if we start to identify with the Self, to identify with mind at peace.....

until we come to this mind at peace we have tow ork and then somebody will knock on hte door (maybe yourself will be hte one) and just say: look right here, this is are mind at peace if you stop to think that you need something else then this moment...then you made the first big shift

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: matthias on February 04, 2009, 09:02:21 PM
yes I do see

but for me dropping of the ego means much more then just this seeing

that is what I mean, no one in this forum reached the deadless// ego-less state (this does not mean that I cannot be wrong)....we are here gathering as this internet satsang or sangha to discuss and see if someone reached this state, to proofe his claim if he has a claim...

and until we are totally gone and 100% brahman and identified with it in sleep deeplsleep and waking (and beyond the three) then we can talk about this "ego is an illision" before this day we are all pretty involved iwith the ego some more some less....

Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on February 05, 2009, 10:04:44 AM
I shall, in this second serial, write about certain other connected

Most of us know that Muruganar was writing the Daruka Forest story and he wanted Bhagavan Ramana to write the portion of Siva's
advices to Daruka forest brahmins.  What is this Daruka Forest story?
Where does it appear?  It appears in Skanda Puranam, Daksha Kandam, as a dialogue between Saint Dadichi and Daksha.  While
describing Siva's glory, Saint Dadichi tells about the happening in
daruka forest.  The brhamins there were performing vedic sacrifices
with huge fire and other required things like, milk, ghee, firewood,
sandal paste etc., They were all thinking that sacrifices per se,
that is karmam per se would confer them liberation.  Siva came there naked as a beggar.  Along with him, was Vishnu as Mohini, his wife, with surpassing beauty!  The wives of the brahmins were enchanted by the handsomeness of the beggar Siva.  The brahmins themselves were allured by the beauty of Mohini.  The wives were rushing to give Siva, food, leaving all their connected work in the sacrifices.
Chidamabra Mahatmyam says, "their breasts were swelling and their upper clothes were tearing..."  The brahmins got angry with Siva.  They sent a tiger, and Siva skinned it and wore the skin as lower garment. Then the elephent came. The same fate, Siva wore it as
upper garment.  Then came the fire, Siva took it on his hand. Then came the serpents. Siva wore them as ornaments.  Finally came, Apasmara, the embodiment/conglomeration of sins.  He crushed him and started dancing the Cosmic Dance.  His matted locks were flowing in all eight directions. 

The brahmins then knew their defeat.  They sought His advices.
Siva: Enough of your karmas. Start seeing within, with a calm mind,
the godehead that is within you.  The karmas yield results only because of me, and karmas per se will never confer liberation.  Karmas are insentient and they do not have "life" in them to give you liberation.

Thus started the famous Kartur agnya..... Upadesa Saram.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: Subramanian.R on February 05, 2009, 04:39:46 PM
Verse 1 of Upadesa Saram:

"By the will of the Creator, action bears fruit.
Is action, then, supreme?
No, it is inert, unconscious."

                         (D.S. Sastri's translation)

He further quotes a story.  In the Yoga Vasishta, the Crow-Yogi,
Kaka Bhusunda, was asked why he had survived for so many ages.
He replied: "Who will be able to overstep the strict ordinance of Siva?
His will was that I should act thus and other Yogis should work out the way they did.  As every pre-ordained event, should work out its results, such events will inevitably come to pass.  Such is the nature of the law."

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Upadesha Saram
Post by: ramana_maharshi on March 10, 2010, 09:15:14 PM
excellent and wonderful explanation by every participant especially to srkudai,subramanium and Dr raju garu.

Great thread!!!!!!