The Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

Ramana Maharshi => General topics => Topic started by: matthias on October 31, 2008, 01:30:58 PM

Title: mahamudra meditation
Post by: matthias on October 31, 2008, 01:30:58 PM
wikipedia says about this tibetan buddhist meditation the following (I used the bold function to show the similarities to vichara):

A relationship with a teacher is strongly stressed, and in the former Tibet these texts would not have been available except through a teacher and without having completed preliminary practices. Some parts of the transmission are done verbally and through empowerments and "reading transmissions". In particular the teacher directly Points out the Mind of the Student.

Mahamudra meditation practice works to directly reveal emptiness to one's own direct experience in one's own mind. This is achieved by meditating directly on one's own mind. This is known as "taking the path of direct valid cognition"—it emphasizes directly experiencing the phenomena of one's own mind and experiencing emptiness.

As in all Buddhist schools of meditation, the basic meditative practice of Mahamudra is divided into two approaches: śamatha ("tranquility") and vipaśyanā ("insight").

The meditation manuals (in particular those of The 9th Karmapa) are among the most detailed and precise in the Buddhist literature. For tranquility practice they enumerate the stages of settling the mind and specify many common problems (eg. excitement, torpor, doubt, apathy) and practices to remedy these problems. The objects of meditation are simple objects, statues of the Buddha, the breath, mantras, complex visualizations and deities and Yidams. These objects of meditation are common throughout Tibetan Vajrayana practice.

The detailed instructions for the Insight practices are what make Mahamudra (and Dzogchen) unique. <------I doubt this :)


The meditator is instructed to observe the mind at rest and then during the occurrence of thought. In some practices disturbing emotions are deliberately invoked and the meditator is directed to experience their "empty" nature. The meditator is further instructed to observe that which is looking for the nature of the mind: to observe the observer.

Questions are posed to the meditator to verify the experiences, to trigger further insight and to identify and correct misconceptions. The Ocean of Definitive Meaning and Pointing out the Dharmakaya (9th Karmapa) both enumerate these questions and common answers to them.
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: matthias on November 04, 2008, 07:03:32 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmasambhava   the lotus-born Padmasambhava the root guru of tibetan buddhism and the father of dzogchen//mahamudra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen   Dzogchen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahamudra    Mahamudra Tantra

above are the Wikipedia links

I also found this websites containing more information on the practice..

a source text:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/karmapa.htm

a great ressource for mahamudra praxis:

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/x/nav/n.html_94726721.html


peace peace peace



Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: ramanaduli on November 05, 2008, 12:42:22 AM
Dear srkudai


you can listen from Lama Ole Nydahl you tube.

But it is another path to know the self.


Ramanaduli
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: mai_chop_gohok on November 06, 2008, 04:44:56 PM
what has mahamudra to do with ramana and advaita ?
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 06, 2008, 05:23:06 PM
Dear mai chop gohok,

Bhagavan Ramana did not recommend, any mudras, any postures,
(ASANAS), any mantras, any japas.  For the seekers who are still
on the path of Ramana Way, He was considerate to approve
'bhakti" and that too, woship to outside God, which will take you
worship to within, that is the Self Surrender.  But many practices
have been adopted by different seekers and Bhagavan Ramana
did not want to interfere with them, much less on mahamudra
and things like that, as it was His nature not to interfere.

Arunachala Siva.

 
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: matthias on November 07, 2008, 10:59:05 PM
mahamudra and dzogchen are buddhistic advaita vedanta

same process, different mantras, different forms, differnet vocabulary.....but the same path, same results, just another school

you see ramana maharishi was such a great soul such a totally liberated beeing that his teaching transcends all teachings, his light shines in all schools...he just appeared in india and was filled with the light of lord shiva...

but in fact if you look closely into mahamurda and dzogchen you will see it is the same, you will read there that the thoughts vanish, they do not use the term sat chit ananda but they point to this supreme state with the sentence: the blissful pure land......etc. very similar to advaita vedanta

a part of the teacings is also the pointing out of the true nature of the mind..and that it is allready sat chit ananda..

that is why I posted it, and I feel that it is neccessary to see the different ways as one (and this two particular methods are so close that I wanted to post some information about it)...

Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: matthias on November 07, 2008, 11:14:16 PM
dear subramanian

I feel the nature and guidence of ramana to be total, all-trancending

and I think the light he was and is, is like this: all-trancending and therefor he did not interfer, it was not neccessary.
he was a maharishi he saw everyting that is essential...and therefor it was not neccesary to interfer to any other school 

"every step is a step to myself"

his "state" is eternal, and it is the same eternal realisation of all higher mystic schools....it will be this today, tomorrow and it was this yesterday

namkai norbu says about dzogchen that it is not buddhistic, it cannot be, because it is our natural state..

I have to say that this state does not belong to any school or teacher...jet the maharishi is my guide, my guru my self and if he shows me the similarity to dzogchen then this is something I should see (dont you think?)

the maharishi is the greatest light of our times, and you see his teaching is the essential part of all-teachings...totally free of outer forms and ways, and dzogchen is very close to this...I say close not the same

Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: matthias on November 07, 2008, 11:16:07 PM
   The Great Master of Oddiyana once said:

     Don’t investigate the root of things,
     Investigate the root of Mind!
     Once the mind’s root has been found,
     You’ll know one thing, yet all is thereby freed.
     But if the root of Mind you fail to find,
     You will know everything but nothing
            understand.

you see the similarity?
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 08, 2008, 10:08:26 AM
Dear Matthias,

I agree with you.  All loads lead to Tiruvannamalai, which is Bodh Gaya.
The Pure Land school accepts the state of bliss, and hence many
other Buddhists thought it is not buddhistic.  Bhagavan Ramana also
said that each one should continue in their own path and find out the
Truth and even forbade Christians from changing their faith.  What
He taught was only philosphy of Atma and that was beyond all
religions.  The only rule, He "suggested" was sattvic food in
moderate quantities, which is an aid to self enquiry.

Incidentally, Sankara adopted the Buddhist method and taught
Advaita.  Only calling the goal as Void or Bliss was the difference.
Hence Sankara is called Pracheena Buddha, the hidden Buddha.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: matthias on November 08, 2008, 11:28:09 AM
that is very interessting...

in the highest regions of the mind htere are no ting like schools or ways or whatever..they just vanish
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: mai_chop_gohok on November 09, 2008, 03:38:52 AM
mantras/japa are/is open to everybody, but tibetan technics like mahamudra are very restricted.

they are restricted to students, who have taken buddhist refuge, who have a teacher/lama, who have done nondro and other practices, they require exact teachings, empowerments and lungs, actally mahamudra is even restricted to certain schools/lineages.

to mix up ramanas remarks about and his tolerance with japa with specific tibetan technics is more than weird.

ramana was a hindu and not a freak.

of course all ways and teachings lead to the same in the end, but only in the end.

of course high teachings describe the same results, but to mix up everything isn´t good for most ppl on the way.

you also wouldn´t mix up christian or sufi teachings with advaita.

and u will never find a tibetan lama, who will teach u mahamudra, cause u tell him, it´s the same like advaita.

especially the mentioned lama ole, who belongs to the kagyu sect and teaches mahamudra so, is very vehemently against mixing up different "religions".

despite I don´like him much for his exaggerated hate against muslims, in this point I have to agree with him.
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 09, 2008, 11:05:17 AM
Dear mai chop gohok,

A few clarifications.  You may agree or not.

First, Bhagavan Ramana was not a Hindu, at least after self
realization.  He is beyond all religions.  He is beyond all stages
of life, ati-asrami.  You may ask, why then He put on Vibhuti and
prayed to Arunachala?  Vibhuti, to Him was a mark, to denote
that all this body would one day become the ashes, since they
are impermanent.  He considered Arunachala not as Godhead but
as Father, the Self, Brahman.  Any teacher for that matter, should
proceed from certain basic adherences to the already existing religions.
Christ had to be a Jew, the Buddha had to be a Hindu, Mahavira had
to be a Hindu, till the end of their life in the body.

Since Bhagavan Ramana was always a indicator of the sublimity
of Atma, which for the seekers first is within the Heart, though
it is all pervading and all expansive.  He therefore did not bother
about the conventional religions which His devotees were following.
He stressed that everyone should, first, be in their own stable to come
out of the stable for freedom.  That way, even if Buddhists, (I am not
sure whether anyone practising Mahamudra meditation came to Him.)
were allowed to follow their own path since it would have eventually
led to them to the path of pure wisdom.  The same is the case with
Christians, Muslims, Parsis etc., etc.,

Arunachala Siva.
 
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: matthias on November 09, 2008, 02:20:57 PM
I talk about similaritys, and mahamudra and dzogchen seem to be the buddhist advaita, I talked to a western dzogchen teacher and he confirmed that dzogchen is in a way buddhistic advaita vedanta....he also said that it yould be hard to find someone who teaches dzogchen without buddhistic background, or someone who teaches vedanta without hindu background, but that all...

I do not try to mix it up, at least I do not feel like mixing it up, I just try to show similarites, and Iam not in the mood in turning arround every word that I write...so If it looks like Iam telling that atma vichara is the same like dzogchen then sorry, I used the wrong words.

I do not know much about the tradition, but what you can read about it in the internet indicates that there are similarities..

I refer more to dzogchen, I did not read so much about mahamudra, but I know the song of Naropa of course...

I do not feel that dzogchen is restricted, you can attend a retreat without taking refuge to the 3 jewels, you even get transmissions without refuge...you can study the dharma without taking refuge....and why not?

Iam sure that there are schools that are very restricted, and that there are lamas that are very old fashioned, but to say that there are just lemons would hurt the oranges..

I do not see your point here, look at the integral spiritual institute, there are zen masters, rabbis, siddha yogis, benedicitn monks etc all are coming together to study mahamudra, or zazen or whatever...I do not see any problem here, and I do not see a restriction...
we are in an age where the core of spiritual practice is moving together..

here is the link to a youtube video where the unthinkable happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A34CaZdudWs

I found books of the maharishi in buddhist centres

with the grace of a guru you can never fail, and you can make osho meditations after tibetan breathing yoga and afterwards a dzogchen meditation......and if it shall happen like this, it will happen...

all steps lead to the same goal, all steps.....there are in fact no right or wrong steps

you can just practice atma vichara, but for me atma vichara is the essence of all teachings, it is why I sit and meditate, it is all self-enquiery it is always the self meditating about the self...remembering who and what Iam is not limited to anyting

so then I have to say that this Lama shows a great portion of ignorance, if he hates muslims and does not like to mix up religions, this is a sign for me to never meet this man...

I feel to be a mystic and a seeker of truth, and in this path there are no bounderies, if you see a boundery between budhdism and hindu, and christianity then Iam sorry for you, maybe you should sit down and vibrate I-I-I-I-I and look from where it arises, and if you find nothing but openess then you can be sure that buddhism is just a play and hinduism is also just a play arising from there..

peace peace peace
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: mai_chop_gohok on November 10, 2008, 04:39:18 AM
Bhagavan Ramana was not a Hindu, at least after self realization.  He is beyond all religions.
Can u explain to me, why the brahmans in his ashram do pujas ?

even if Buddhists, (I am not sure whether anyone practising Mahamudra meditation came to Him.)
were allowed to follow their own path since it would have eventually led to them to the path of
pure wisdom.  The same is the case with Christians, Muslims, Parsis etc., etc.,

I see a big difference between being tolerant to other religions and practices and not telling
anybody to stop or change anything and declaring that mahamudra and advaita are the same.
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: mai_chop_gohok on November 10, 2008, 05:14:04 AM
@matthias :

actually it´s impossble for me to take anything like a position "against" oshos mixing up of all religions as I have been with him and love his teachings at least as much as I love ramanas teachings meanwhile.

it´s just my experience with vajrayanis, that all of their stuff is restricted to ppl, that have followed precisely all traditional steps.

the teachers I saw teaching such stuff without restrictions are westeners, that teach and mix up without any authorisation of the lamas and schools they learned their stuff from.

I beg to differ between buddhism in general and vajrayana, I never saw such restrictions in other schools, but my experiences are limited to mainly theravada, I have for example nearly no experience with zen.

I never heard of any restrictions in advaita, but there are others here, who sure know more about this than I do.

if u really wanna know about restrictions in vajrayana, this is a great place to ask, it´s the biggest buddhist forum, there are loads of guys, who are really in the known :

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 10, 2008, 11:05:05 AM
Dear mai chop gohok,

The Brahmins in the Asram did Pooja because it was the custom
amongst Hindus, to do pooja for the cows, any new starting ceremony
for constructions, or to the Siva Linga in Mathrubhutesvarar Temple,
Mother's Samadhi.  You can take it that Bhagavan Ramana did tolerate
all non-objectionable practices and He also did not stop them.  His
way was a way to Atma and He did not have any quarrel with any
religion.  As I told you last evening, every pathfinder should have
a basic platform of his own religion, to start with.  Bhagavan Ramana
did not start any new religion, but only showed a new path, which had
gathered dust and cactus, after Gaudapada and Sankara.  But He
would have definitely objected to any prohibitive ways of worship
or sacrifice.

For example, no body dared to come to His Asram and say that
he would  follow the Veera Marga of Sakta Tantra, a worship to
Godhead in the pose of union with a woman!  Mind you, this
is an accepted practice of Hindu religion and perhaps Osho came
very near to this system.  He did not approve animal sacrifices too.
He was against caste and creed, but there were two separate rows for brahmins and non brahmins in lunch hall and He was sitting in
the middle of the two rows.  This shows, He did not approve caste
practices, but tolerated the practices of other brahmins.

As regards, mahamudra, I never said that He would have objected to that
meditation if some Buddhists had come and practised it in the Old Hall.
He would have tolerated that, and for that matter, any practice, which
was not vulgar and objectionable in the normal sense of the term.

But the fact remains He was beyond Hinduism and any such religions,
which had, in course of time, contaminated the philosophy of Pure
Enquiry and Self Knowledge.

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: mai_chop_gohok on November 10, 2008, 12:57:35 PM
The Brahmins in the Asram did Pooja because it was the custom amongst Hindus
they still do that today in the ashram as far as I can see on the ashram videos.

As I told you last evening, every pathfinder should have a basic platform of his own religion, to start with.
what about ppl without that "burden" ?

As regards, mahamudra, I never said that He would have objected to that
meditation if some Buddhists had come and practised it in the Old Hall.
despite I have no idea what would be the point of doing that, I doubt that this would be possible or tolerated today.

But the fact remains He was beyond Hinduism and any such religions,
which had, in course of time, contaminated the philosophy of Pure
Enquiry and Self Knowledge.
there are even large groups of osho "devoties" nowadays in india and nepal, that do "osho pujas"...
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 10, 2008, 01:52:29 PM
Dear mai goh chop,

They are doing Poojas even today in the Asram, because the devotees
and ashram authorities consider Bhagavan Ramana, who was not
different from Siva even earlier, has now become Siva Himself.  Like
the Christians, at least a certain sect, do for the Christ's photograph
or to the Cross, which is a symbol of  sacrifice.  You know, Teravada
Buddhists pray to the Buddha's statues with incense sticks and camphor
burning?

If any one wants to go away from burden, be it religious or philosophical, he can still do self enquiry, from such position.

If people in Nepal and India do Osho devotional practices in some
form, be it Veera Marga or something else, let  them do.  We have
no quarrel.  Each one, according to their inclination, but not creating
objection from the society.

Mahamudra or no mahamudra, one can still do self enquiry.

Arunachala Siva.       
     
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: mai_chop_gohok on November 10, 2008, 02:42:41 PM
an average asian theravada buddhist has never even heard about vipassana and practises loads of far worse and weird things than praying to buddha statues, but I don´t want to compare this with the the things practiced in the ramana ashram as I have never been there.
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 10, 2008, 02:57:51 PM
Dear mai chop goho,

In this Forum, we speak the truth.  The buddhistic rituals which
I have described, I have seen as  participant one day in the
Maha Bodhi Society, Bangalore, where some Sri Lankans were doing
and I was witnessing.  They teach Walking Meditation, something
similar to Zazen or Sitting Meditation of Zen Masters.

In Sri Ramansramam, I have been going once for three days in
three months, and I have seen this Puja many times.  There is
nothing abnormal about it, as it is done in any Siva Temple.  Both
the samadhis of Mother Azhgamma and Bhagavan Ramana have their
Siva Lingas, on top.  There are elaborate poojas and milk is distributed,
with holy ashes and vermillon.  David Godman,  came to
Tiruvannamalai in 1976 and is still staying there for the past 42
years.  He became Self realized in three years.  He is doing circumambulation 108 times, a holy number, in Bhagavan Ramana's
shrine, every evening!  He takes prasad.  I have seen Western devotees, taking broom sticks and cleaning the entire Asram.  Dear friend,
these have to be gone through while doing self enquiry or even after
self realization and these are not rituals but more than that.  What
benefits these things give, whether these are essential pre requisites
for self realization, only the doer can say.

Arunachala Siva.
 

   
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: mai_chop_gohok on November 10, 2008, 03:17:08 PM
but where does the urge come from to call all this "not hindu" ?
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 10, 2008, 03:19:49 PM
My dear mai chop gohok,

I only said Bhagavan Ramana, as a Teacher and as a person,
was beyond Hinduism or any other religion.  I did not refer
Ramana devotees and disciples as Hindus or non Hindus.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: mai_chop_gohok on November 10, 2008, 03:32:38 PM
I did not refer Ramana devotees and disciples as Hindus or non Hindus.
but I did.
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on November 10, 2008, 04:02:19 PM
Dear all,
          Religion serves as a jumping board from the knowable to the unknowable.Once a person jumps into the unknowable he loses himself
along with the idenity of belonging to a particular religion.Bhagawan after death experience is a self realised master and cannot be considered
to be a Hindu and he has thrown away sared thread(yajnopaveetam) into the tank of the temple and remained only with a cod piece.All beings
are same to him and he is friendly and affectionate towards animals which have no religion at all.The cross section of the society used to come
for his guidance irrespective of their religious conditioning.He has never taken rituals seriously and used to joke about Brahmin and nonbrahmin
separation during meals.Once one devotee asked when you are teaching self-enuiry why so many rituals are going in Matrubhuteswara temple
and is there any virtue in doing rituals like that.Bhagawan laughingly replied to him those who want to do rituals let them do and because of
their offerings first our stomachs are filled without much trouble.Before realisation he never practiced any religion and he never heard the word
Brahman before realisation but all the same he became Brahman after the death experience in few minutes.When someone asked whether
Buddha is realised or not he assertively told him "yes".He described the state of Brahman as "I am that i am" which is a description originally
described by Moses.Not only Bhagawan,anybody who jumps into the unknowable and settles there does not belong to any religion.
He is like a man sitting on the fence between the known and the unknowable and capable of conveying unknowable for
those who are living identified with the known.
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 10, 2008, 04:50:11 PM
Dear mai chop gohok,

Further to what Dr. Raju has said,

If you did believe either way, it is for you to work out the Truth.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: mai_chop_gohok on November 10, 2008, 05:40:21 PM
it´s pretty easy to hide what u really think behind advaitic hanky panky...
Title: Re: mahamudra meditation
Post by: Subramanian.R on November 11, 2008, 09:49:50 AM
My dear mai chop gohok,

I am closing this discussion on rituals and advaita.  You can have
the last laugh.

Arunachala Siva.