The Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

Ramana Maharshi => The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi => Topic started by: srkudai on October 14, 2008, 10:27:23 AM

Title: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: srkudai on October 14, 2008, 10:27:23 AM
Dear Friends,
             :)

This is a very special thread. Coz , here we shall discuss the practise. Most people have questions like: I have been into this for such a long time, and yet i am burdened by the Samsara. I did read: Samsara maya parivarjitosi [Samsara is maya, drop it] ... but how to do it ? Coz the Samsara seems to be clinging too fast onto me!

It seems easy to listen someone say: "My dear friend, if someone scolds you you need not react", and yet, the reaction seems to come automatically! What to do ?

People have said several times: "Samsara svapnam tyaja moha nidra", world is a dream, drop the sleep of ignorance... and yet, ignorance seems to cling to me ! How do i get out of it ?

I prayed to all gods ... yet, feel empty !
I tried all i can and yet feel lowly.

How to i correct myself and get ahead. I need a "fundamental kind of revolution", as jiddu krishnamurthy would put it. How do i do it ?

These collection of articles are for someone who sees these problems. They are for someone who says:
I know what is right, i am not able to live it up. I know what is not right, i am not able to stop myself from doing what is wrong!

Love!
Silence
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 14, 2008, 10:59:42 AM
Dear srkudai,  My case is different.  I am the one who believes that
such external controls upon me, will not give any special benefits
to me.  These simple desires, so long, as they are within the societal
ambits, (because we are living in a society and not in a jungle), need
not be suppressed.  I chew pan-parag, ghutka variety.  I am not
harming anyone with this practise. So it is okay so long as I do not
exceed the limitations on this bad habit.  Again smoking, drinking etc.,
If one drinks liquor excessively and molest a woman on the road
or hit his vehicle upon a pedestrian, then he crosses the societal
limits.  That is harmful for him and the society. Then, should these
habits to be dropped?  It depends upon one's prarabdha.  It is not
a blockade to self enquiry.  But showing anger upon others, cheating
others, harming others, these do create problems right from the first
step.  There could be different views.

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 14, 2008, 12:38:50 PM
Dear srkudai,

What I was stressing is the same idea of conditioning of the mind.
Desiring and deliberate non-desiring or abhorring, as in the case
of tobacco chewing, are both responses of conditoning of mind or
a conditoned mind.  Bhagavan said the same thing in the case of
onions for His mother.  Wanting onions or deliberately avoiding onions
are both conditions of mind.  Onions per se or tobacco per see will
not come in the way of Self realization or self enquiry.  There were
several Siddhas who were consuming ganja in the Hills.  Bhagavan
Himself was offered the same in a few times.  What Bhagavan Ramana
said about the ganja was that it will spoil the mind further in case one
is full of bad thoughts in his mind.  If one's mind is having good thoughts
about the need for liberation and efforts towards it, that would help him in
his path.  I am not saying that tobacco or betel nuts are in the same
footing.  I was answering only from the point of deliberate avoiding,
because that would remain as unfulfilled desire in the mind and spring
up much more forcefully at a latter state.  Like Jadabharatha loving
a deer towards the end of his life.  One should allow the prarabdha
to run its course.  Again one cannot lust a neighbour's wife saying
that this is his prarabdha.  In that case, the society would intervene
for the social justice.

A similar incident in Mother Azhagamma's life.  She wanted greens from
the Hills and asked Akhilandamma to bring some. When the lady brought
this, she was afraid of Bhagavan Ramana and so she sent them through
Ramanatha Brahmachari.  When Ramanatha brought them, it was
observed by Bhagavan Ramana, who told Azhagamma that if she
wanted such things she could as well go back to Madurai.  Here the
case is one of deliberate wanting, creating difficulties for others.
So was also the papad-batter which Mother broght from downtown
Tiruvannamalai, to make papads.  Bhagavan chided her jocularly.
These, onions, greens and papads decribed, are the cases of the non-deliberate and deliberate conditionings of mind.  If onions were not there
in the Cave, Bhagavan would not have asked someone to deliberately
bring them and made samabhar!  Because they were there, and they
per se, do not come in the way of self enquiry, He did not prohibit them.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: ramanaduli on October 14, 2008, 04:06:56 PM
Dear Subrahmaniyan ji

What srk says it is correct. We got lots of vasanas which is not going to help for our liberation. See to keep our body healthy is very essential. Without this body we cannot cross the samsara. But pan supari is not all helping to have a bealthy body. Of course these habbits are not doing any harm to others. but who gave the right to harm your body. I feel when nothing is ours, only we are custodians we should take care of it. We can have good vasanas which helps to our self realisation. Some time back I read one zen story  pouring tea in the cup. So to clean up cup which is filled up bad tea, if you pour good tea continously you may succeed. 

Ramanaduli
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 14, 2008, 04:19:04 PM
Dear Ramanaduli, I was not trying to say that the habit is per se
bad or good.  What I was trying to say was that deliberate attempts
to abhorrance of habits that are not societally harmful, will bring
forth contamination of the mind as much as the alternate.  When
some householders wanted to embrace sannyasa, Bhagavan said
different guidelines to different devotees.  He said, 'No' to someone
and 'Okay' to some others.  Hence when one is fit enough this will
happen, be it taking up sannyasa or giving up tobacco.  Of course,
I agree that we should not harm the body, which is a vehicle given
by God, for our pursuit.  But one's prarabdha has to be worked out,
and that is all.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on October 14, 2008, 04:50:46 PM
Dear all,
          Nisargadatta Maharaj used to smoke beedis so much he is called Beedi Baba.Ram Surat Kumar used to smoke cigarettes heavily.I felt
lot of sacred energy around Ram Surat Kumar and i used to identify him where he is by the vibrations of his energy from a long distance
even though his body is not visible from that distance,such is the intensity of his energy.That intensity is increased after he shed his body
and his living presence is very much available now.So for some whose attention is mainly focussed on self these things may not hinder
their spiritual progress.
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: ramanaduli on October 14, 2008, 04:55:45 PM
Dear Subramaniyan ji

Then what about the free will. People say where there is will there is a way. Who is telling the very act of chewing pan is bad, then who is witnessing, then who is discussing, who does justification, whether can or cannot. I consider all activities belong to "THE MIND". When Bhagavan gave the weapon "self enquiry" I think it is easy to overcome the prarabtha. Is not it?


Ramanaduli
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: SANKAR on October 14, 2008, 05:07:28 PM
Dear all,
  I felt lot of sacred energy around Ram Surat Kumar and i used to identify him where he is by the vibrations of his energy from a long distance even though his body is not visible from that distance,such is the intensity of his energy.

That intensity is increased after he shed his body and his living presence is very much available now.
So for some whose attention is mainly focussed on self these things may not hinder their spiritual progress.

DEAR SIR,

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT AND ONE CAN FEEL IT. IF YOU GO INTO HIS ASHRAM AT THIRUVANNAMALAI. ONE CAN REALLY FEEL AND ENJOY IT WITH OUT ANY DOUBT.
HOW THEIR PRESENCE IS FELT WITHOUT PHYSICAL PRESENCE OF BODY CAN BE FELT AND LEARNT.
WORTHFUL VISITNG AND SURELY WILL BE REWARDED.

SIVA SIVA ARUNACHALA SIVA.
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 14, 2008, 05:10:17 PM
Dear Ramanaduli,

I am happy that the topic is shifting from tobacco to other more
important aspects.  Fate and free will -- these two, as per Bhagavan
Ramana's words, are only for who is not self realized. The self-
realized Jnani is beyond both, because there is nothing other than
Self for him.  So we are all coming under the dyads of fate and
free will and there is no escape, till we realize the Self.  Again the
prarabdha is there for all of us, including Jnanis.  For the Jnanis,
the effects of prarabdha, be it good or evil fruits do not affect him.

Arunachala Siva.  
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 14, 2008, 05:27:50 PM
Dear Ramanaduli, srkudai, Dr. Raju and Sankar,

The list is legion.  Chinmayananda used to have snifff of snuff of and
of one, even during his Gita discourses.  One Koti Swami, who lived
somewhere on the way to Tiruvannamalai, and who is the guru of
famous Ilaya Raja of Tamil Cinema music, was a chain smoker.  People
used to give him cigaratees as 'offering'!  He not only smoked but even
to disciples, he used to give a half-smoked cigarattes for a puff. The
devotees who were not smokers used to take the cigaratees, would
have a puff, as Prasad (!!!)  and suffer unending coughs!
Ram Surat Kumar used to do the same thing.  Shirdi Sai Baba used to
have hookah and so also Sri RK and Swami Vivekananda.  This is not
to drive home the point that everyone should have a smoke or a
chew, for self realization!

Bhagavan Ramana, was altogether different.  He used to have some
betal leaves and nuts, for some time, more for digestion and not for
pleasure.  Even that habit got stopped once when an attendant failed
to bring it after lunch.  It was a nimitta to stop that habit.  Gurram
Venkata Subbaramaiah has composed a Telugu song titled Thamboola
Vaibhavam on that incident! 

In the end, there will be time, there  will be time, when everything
looks alike! (T.S. Eliot)

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 14, 2008, 06:14:36 PM
Dear srkudai, I totally agree with you on this point.  Make
necessities as luxuries.  A second TV, a lap top over and above
a desk top.  Two cell phones instead of one. That way, as you
have said, one can make any habit like tobacco, into a luxury
and stop it, eventually.  I had a car about 10 years back and I
sold it.  I do not need it now.  Whenever I have to go to air port
or Tiruvannamalai, once in two or three months, I engage a rental car, thus making a necessity into a luxury.  That, I think, is the correct
approach.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: ramanaduli on October 14, 2008, 06:33:50 PM
Dear Srkudai

your point i.e. we can have suggestions but not command. is right. Means when I do not follow  my mind's command
I am a master and my mind is my servent,  But 2nd point, I do not think it is necessary to make our life from necessary to luxury.
Because there is no end if we want luxury. The check post is "vichara Marga" can help us. The purpose of the life to have self realisation which it is already there and due to our prarabdha luxuries became vasanas we are in confusion. Of course we need a basic necessaries for our life not luxury for self realisation. All cannot become Janaka and have Ashtavakra guru. I do not know about others. I take this statement for my self.


Ramanaduli
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: ramanaduli on October 15, 2008, 12:16:31 AM
Dear srkudai

These comfort, discomfort, mind, suggestions and its commands are to be taken for a man who realised something lacking within him, and finds the ultimate happiness is within himself. It is not enough to get the knowledge only. He should be lived in that path. For that  as we have a body, it is necessary to keep health, so we need basic things.  until we become brahma jnani.We should not but  crave for luxuries. It is ok. if I get it as a gift, still I should be ready to give to the needy people rather to keep for my luxury life. When we take a common man who sleeps under the tree he may be knowing his limitations to have a nice bed. So if you offer naturally he will be happy. But if the man is a realised man, he never bother about the gift, he will use it and if it is lost he would not be worried.  I agree with you what u said about the mind which always wants to do something.
It wants to survive so  it will cling something. Our mind never be calm,  We need not do anything for realisation as we are already bliss. Still it wants to do something. One way it is better to do good thing like bhajan, japam,going to temple, reading spiritual book, seeking guru's darshan.etc. etc. Otherwise we  do not know when the Maya will occupy us.
 As bhagavan says, the stick which burns the corpse, we have to give good work to mind till it dies and burned itself.This is my understanding so far....



Ramanduli
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: ramanaduli on October 15, 2008, 05:32:45 AM
Dear srkudai


If you want to fix on asking who am I you have to withdraw yourself from outside, then only it is possible. So I feel both are same. What you said to have the convention that I am bliss. is not possible to ordinery people. We have lived on mind for generation to generation. Your stateent is correct. See in my case, I read so many times Bhagavan's book. Still my mind is doing the same thing. There is only difference after reading the book, at first I will forget, but now the worrying period became less. because I start to remind my self. When I have not crossed half of the distance, if you ask me to have luxury and not to pacify the mind ilike doing bhajan etc.  etc.. my case would be a gone case. Therefore what I want to tell is
for beginners we have to follow the old bhakti or yoga whatever they are doing, and they have to practice the vichara marga also. Previously without knowing I was geting confused now with having knowledge of "self" I get confusion,
Until we have no mind stage we have to continue fixing on self or withdraw from the mind and pacifying the mind.


Ramanaduli

Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 15, 2008, 10:36:51 AM
Dear srkudai, Ramanaduli,

All religious practices are only for cleansing the mind, be it pooja,
dhyana, tapas etc., etc., All efforts go only to remove the dirt in
the mind.  We do it day after day, day after day, like shaving your
your face.  One day you will find that your cheeks are clean!

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: SANKAR on October 15, 2008, 10:39:45 AM
Dear sirs,

We have to control our mind and thoughts.
Surrender to the guru with full faith and fight within to do nothing.
Do everything to do nothing and to remain as self in silence.
when time comes all will be settled; let us just be as it is and observe silently the show of prarabdha and not get involved in it.
Let us not react to any actions and remain as silent observer in silence. Let the things run as it is with out involvement.

SIVA SIVA
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: ramanaduli on October 15, 2008, 06:52:07 PM
Dear srkudai


I think it is your experience not to  pacify the mind straightway .You can dwell on your "self" It is true. What I am saying that,
for beginers it is not possible who does not sit infront of bhrahma janani.  I read that the mind is like an elephan's trunk which always move and catch something. Therefore the mahoot will give one stick and the elephant will catch hold tightly and never wander for other object. In the same way when our mind is geting agitated  we have to pacify it, we can do japa dhyan etc. etc. I agree with you, that it is not the final solution. It will be calm for little while. Again mind will get agitated for another thing. So there is only way to be as a witness and not to do any attempt to pacify the mind.
Here I want to admit myself, when I came to know we are the witness and we should be in witness stage. I wrongly understood. I used to witness everything not to loose any thing. If I feel something is going to be wrong I used to search for the solution with the help of mind. and get happiness for not having any loss or any abuse.
Here I want to say, if we would be witness for every thing, then what about INTELLIGENCE. Is not necessary for our daily life. comments please.

Ramanaduli
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: ramanaduli on October 15, 2008, 09:46:44 PM
Dear udai

Thanks for the reply. But some time mind may say correct thing also na? Supposing when I drive the car, suddenly I may take wrong route that time from back of my mind I will realise and drive correctly.. Is the mind only giving alertness.? So for good thing also we need mind otherwise we will be insane. What I am saying is unless we have the intellegence how we classify which is wrong and right. Once we get the wrong thing still our mind wants to do then it is correct not to pacify the mind. Is not it?

Ramanaduli
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: gangajal on October 15, 2008, 10:47:52 PM
Dear Subramanian ji,
                 :)

Cleaning mind is definitely not making it calm.
Cleaning the mind is Understanding that i am the Self, and living it out! until the understanding sinks deep enough to be practical for me. That alone is cleaning mind: Associating "I" with Self, Consciousness.

Anything else is not.

Love!
Silence

Dear Silence,

      Cleaning the mind makes it calm. Cleaning the mind is not Understanding that i am the Self.
Cleaning the mind is absolutely necessary but not sufficient. Unless the Atman chooses you, you will not have the
Self experience. However, without cleansing of the mind Atman will not choose you.

     Those who ignore the cleansing of the mind end up like Jiddu Krishnamurthy. I think JK not
only did not reach the stage of chittasuddhi but he did not have even  bhutashuddhi. JK was not
fit for Jnana marga.

Regards

Gangajal
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on October 16, 2008, 10:21:21 AM
Dear gangajal,
                   What is the cleansing agent of the mind?Can the mind clean itself?

                   What is the entity that is so much concerned about chitta suddhi and Bhuta Sudhi of JK and deciding that he is not eligible for Jnana marga?Those who are interested in "who am i" enquiry should go to the source of the entity that is crticising the others.
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 16, 2008, 12:18:17 PM
Dear srkudai, Ramanaduli and Gangajal,

Yesterday I did not reply srkudai, straightaway, because I wanted
others to give their views.  Cleaning the mind is necessary, since,
first we have to remove the encumberances, to find it fit for the
Self.  The term Chitta-suddhi, involves "suddham", the cleaning and
making it neat and tidy.  It is like a servant making the house neat,
before the Master comes in.  It is not that Master is away, but he is
always there in us, but, he should be happy to have a clean house.

Reg. JK, I have already written in this Forum.  He needed a December,
chill climate in Madras, for him to give his lectures!  He needed an
airconditoned villa for him to stay in Vasanta Vihar, in Adyar, Madras.
Then finally there is saying in Tiruk Kural, a Tamil book of ethics,
written by Tiruvalluvar, about 2000 years back.  He said:  A man's
fitness would be known only by what he left behind after his death.
JK left behind him a lot of controversy, including his 'questionable'
relationship with his student's wife, Ms. Rosalind Rajagopal.  An
authentic article came after his demise in news papers.  On that
day, I bundled all his books and threw them away into my attic!
In Othello  Iago tells about the hero, " Mere prattle without
practice is all his soldiership!"  This fits well for JK.

Arunachala Siva.        
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: ramanaduli on October 16, 2008, 06:29:50 PM
Dear Subrahmaniyan ji, srkudai,

Thanks for giving explaination. As srkudai says, the person at first should be a good seeker. As Subrahmaniyan says, the seeker should clean his citta. Again srkudai says how to clean, by having faith, discriminating, analizing, compassion.Now I understood, doing japa and dyan is not the end. Yesterday again I read Who am I. Bhagavan clearly mentioned This pranayama all other tips only helps to some extent. but it is not the end. THIS PRACTICE IN SRKUDAI'S WORDS IS  'NO NEED TO PACIFY THE MIND' instead look into the mind. What I feel if our prarabtha is good then we would not fall into the wrong guru. But it is our great Punyam, we now got a correct guru "Bhagavan" and the correct path i.,e. vichara marga. and good forum where the real seekers utilize and clarify the doubts. This is all Bhagavan's grace only. As subrahmaniyan ji says, the more we read "who am I" more we know our self. The problem, is already I accumulated unwanted, wrong understanding in my mind. So when I read Bhagavan's teachings, it looks as though I understood all but later on it is nothing. Unless I read repeatedly my mind never leaves me.  Once again I thank both of you.


Ramanaduli
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 16, 2008, 08:27:37 PM
Dear srkudai, Plugging  the leaks, removing the dirt slags after water
had evaporated, removing the unwanted furniture and garbage, sweeping the room, refixing a fused mercury bulb, repairing the non-revolving fan, throwing out the old newspapers, giving away their old clothes to the poor, giving the unused medicines and spectacles to some NGO, tearing off the old unwanted letters and throwing them to the dustbin, all are 'cleaning'.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: ramanaduli on October 16, 2008, 09:15:26 PM
Dear sir

These cleaning is like doing before deevali or pongal, along with it, the house needs daily routine also.
Can I call it "NIdhidhyasam"  fixing on self only.


Ramanaduli
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: gangajal on October 16, 2008, 11:35:36 PM
Dear gangajal,
                   What is the cleansing agent of the mind?Can the mind clean itself?

                   What is the entity that is so much concerned about chitta suddhi and Bhuta Sudhi of JK and deciding that he is not eligible for Jnana marga?Those who are interested in "who am i" enquiry should go to the source of the entity that is crticising the others.

Dear DRPVSSNRAJU,
       The cleansing agent of the mind is kundalini shakti. The mind is not cleaning itself.

        The entity, "that is so much concerned about chitta suddhi and Bhuta Sudhi of JK and deciding that he is not eligible for Jnana marga",
is the lingasarira which consists of manas, buddhi, chitta and ahamkara. Lingasarira is the Atman bound by the eight fetters.

       I felt reading your post that you are upset with my criticism of jk. Subramanian has already given his reason for throwing out jk's books.
I merely want to add that jk also forced his lover to abort a fetus. I have not attained chittasuddhi but I have not yet descended to that level.

Gangajal
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: gangajal on October 16, 2008, 11:39:03 PM
Dear Silence,
      Subramanian has explained very ably the necessity for cleaning of the mind. I have nothing to add to what he has written!

Gangajal
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 17, 2008, 09:58:58 AM
Dear Ramanaduli, Gangajal, Dr. Raju and srkudai,

Kundalini or Raja marga is one of the methods of cleaning the mind.
There are other methods under Bhakti and Karma margas.

I believe that we should stop this ping-pong game of whether plugging
or cleaning is the real cleaning.  It is for etymologists to battle out
the roots of these words and do the boxing in the ring.  I have given
my views and srkudai has given his views.  Both may be correct.
Nevertheless, I do not want to have the last laugh!

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on October 17, 2008, 10:47:18 AM
Dear gangajal,
                   I am not upset by your comments on JK,you have got every freedom to comment anybody.But my purpose of posting to you is different.
Judging,evaluating others divert our attention from doing self-enquiry and during sadhana period it is not advisable.I feel that better we utilise
the available time for self-enquiry because life is short and time is highly precious.
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 17, 2008, 11:13:20 AM
Dear Gangajal and Dr. Raju, No bad blood please, between any two of us.
I have got every right to air my views, but at the same time, I have
no right to obstruct others from giving their views.  Every Jnani's
worth is known by what he is left behind him.  And that is all.
Someone wrote in some other blog, "There is no self realized soul,
after Saradamma and that was in 1979"  I became indignant.
Who is he to say that there is no Jnani after 1979?  No Jnani
goes around with a placard around his neck stating that he is
a Brahma Jnani.  I met one sadhu in Seshadri Swami Asram in
Tiruvannamalai recently.  He was singing songs from Tiruvachakam,
with a melting heart in mornings and evenings.   That is the book which I like most.   He did not accept any monetary gift from anybody.  Some gave fruits for him and that is all.  I felt that he is a Jnani.  But who am I to say?  Some others may say that he is only a singing vagabond.
He does not care for either view.  Is it not?

Arunachala Siva.   
 
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on October 17, 2008, 12:05:14 PM
Dear srkudai,
                 I agree totally with you that we have to go to the root of problem to find the solution for it,there is no use of just pruning the leaves,
they will come up again in no time.
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: ramanaduli on October 17, 2008, 08:57:32 PM
Dear srkudai

All vasanas and kamas are mind's play only. The person who  is geting fear,thinks it is happening to him only not for others. But all the human being is occupied by mind except brahma jnani. The person should read or go for self knowledge. After geting knowledge who he is i.e. he is pure consiousness, he is not mind, then he can handle his mind. This is the cause for his fear. Guru can only wipe out his doubt, and fear.


Ramanaduli
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: gangajal on October 17, 2008, 10:56:53 PM
Dear gangajal,
                   I am not upset by your comments on JK,you have got every freedom to comment anybody.But my purpose of posting to you is different.
Judging,evaluating others divert our attention from doing self-enquiry and during sadhana period it is not advisable.I feel that better we utilise
the available time for self-enquiry because life is short and time is highly precious.

Thank you DRPVSSNRAJU for the clarification. I agree with you completely. It seems that my lack of chittasuddhi was showing!
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: gangajal on October 17, 2008, 11:02:48 PM
Dear Ramanaduli, Gangajal, Dr. Raju and srkudai,

Kundalini or Raja marga is one of the methods of cleaning the mind.
There are other methods under Bhakti and Karma margas.

I believe that we should stop this ping-pong game of whether plugging
or cleaning is the real cleaning.  It is for etymologists to battle out
the roots of these words and do the boxing in the ring.  I have given
my views and srkudai has given his views.  Both may be correct.
Nevertheless, I do not want to have the last laugh!

Arunachala Siva.     


Dear Subramanian,
     I would say that it is one's Guru who really does the cleaning. But then since
the Guru is non-different from Kundalini shakti which in turn is non-different from
the Self, it is finally the Self which does the cleaning. Would you agree with this?

Gangajal
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: gangajal on October 17, 2008, 11:11:18 PM
Dear Silence,
     [[[These discussions are very important. Each one of us comes from different back-ground and have practised Spirituality in our own lives for quite some time ... so here we are deconditioning some beliefs. We need to understand very clearly and see what is not correct as wrong. Disagreements are beautiful. Coz out of disagreements, different ideas pop up. IF all of us think the same way... its absolutely futile and boring.]]]

    Yes, I agree. However, let me also state here that not every one's opinion has the same value. I would give more weight to the opinion of a person who has had personal experience. For example, I am suspecting from Subramanian's accurate posts that he has had some personal
spiritual experience. Subramanian is not telling us merely from the intellectual level. (I hope I am not embarasing him.)

[[[Please see ... Pranayama / Bhajan clears mind ... does not clear the cause for junk in mind. So stage fear is not there in the mind, but it might appear. That there is nothing to fear has to be learnt. That is a solution. That is attacking the problem ... not the symptoms.]]]

   Yes, we must ultimately destroy the seed. That is why the highest samadhi is called nirbija samadhi. However, before you can destroy the seed, you must clean the room!

Gangajal
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: ramanaduli on October 18, 2008, 01:19:06 AM
Dear srkudai


Every body has got "Mind". They say all the problems due to the impure mind. It is the problem and block for self knowledge. Now to make the mind from impure to pure. we are discussing so many ways. Here I want to mention that, while going for process, all the ways would not be suitable for all. It may differ to each one. like age wise, sex, living condition. As already the mind is  conditioned, now it is very difficult., to make unconditioned. As I quoted earlier, if any one have a brahma jnani as his guru it will be easy. Now a days it is very difficult to judge also with our impure mind.

I want to ask instead of cleaning is it possible to just watch the mind without giving any suggestions or any commands?
Or can we make "Still Mind"

At last whether we require Mind or not. for self knowledge as well as to survive and lead a moderate life.

please mind my question.


 Ramanaduli



Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: ramanaduli on October 18, 2008, 09:50:59 PM
Dear srkudai


Thanks for giving reply. After reading Bhagavan's teachings I got little peace. I used to blame my self for all the suffering.
I understood, we are not the body and the mind but we are pure consiousness which never born or will die and God and we are one. This took long time to digest for me and I took a long breath and got relaxation. When I learn all the sufferings due to our mind, then I started watching etc. etc. Now from your mail I got a new angle i.e. we need not to make still, and you agree we have to use our mind. I think, you are saying that, we need not to do anything newly because all the events are already programmed by our selves but just keep watching. Because sometimes without thing events are taken place, and I do with absent minded. So it is equal to not having mind or not using the mind.
But I agree we are not the mind. Still I think (from my mind) I we have to use mind. Whenever I start a new work, I become alert i.e. I am applying my mind carefully. When it comes to routine my mind will go somewhere and like a machine I do my work.

At last, we have mind, but we are not mind, But how we work without useing the mind to live. When we want to forget some unpleasant incidents or habit you say just watch. Do not command. like giving up pan parag.. habit.
Like
my mind say...... have pan parag
my intelligent say..... no  it is a bad habit, i have to give it up
mind................ nothing will happen, even big big yogis had it.
int....................but still you are not ripened, instead... just have one peppermint 
mind.................thinking whether to follow or not., later it takes it like a suggess,ion
int....................ok, have one peppermind instead of parn parag. and after sometime this habit also will fall away.
mind.................ok that is fine.  after all it is not a command only suggession,
and follows eating the peppermint. Is it the pacify the mind. You are saying this pacify also not necessary.
We should not make still, as we are witness,  you say that just watch the mind's play???

So far I understood this way.........Is it so?


Ramanaduli
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on October 18, 2008, 10:00:46 PM
Dear Ramanaduli,
                      The very attempt to make the mind still results in the activity of the mind.Simple watchfulness is enough.
                       Stillness is our natural state.It is enough if you do not disturb it."Summa iru" is enough.
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: ramanaduli on October 19, 2008, 12:11:38 AM
Dear Raju ji

Thanks for giving the meaning "summa iru".  When I read this "summa iru" long time ago, I thought sitting idle and  if I sit idle  I would become lazy.
After so many years I understand the meaning. I got another view also from this golden words. It is not only for us but also not to indulge in other's life also. We would be watching people who need help.but unless they ask us it is better to keep away ourelves. I learnt a lesson in my life helping other. So in spiritual path we should be first concern ourselves. Otherwise we may miss our goal. Really it is a long inward journey. Nobody can help. you, your guru and your God. That is all. It is all Bhagavan's grace, I am geting new learning from this forum.


Ramanaduli
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: ramanaduli on October 19, 2008, 11:13:44 PM
Dear srkudai ji

It is fine. I am awarness. I know my weakness. Now I agree with you that we should not command the mind to rectify the weakness. and we should not pacify also. Just I do observe. But how long I should observe. you may say we should not think that also. Is it possible everything would take place perfectly in future? Then what is the use of swadharma, Knowing the human's weakness, many sages gave sastras, abyas, yoga, sthuthi etc. etc. I think these are all the ways to shape up our mind in healthy and good way....I think, your method may be good for advanced seeker or sadhak. Not for beginners and for people who have strong vasanas.  Just to read the spiritual book I think we should have taken so many births.
I myself feel  still, how many birth to take to practice and to merge within me.There are so any stories how big rishis and munis fell down due to their vasanas. Comparing to them I am nothing.

Ramanduli
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 20, 2008, 01:34:38 PM
Dear Gangajal, srkudai and others, Yes. Self shall help us in
the cleaning, but as Bhagavan Ramana said in Who am I?
"God and Guru shall help us in self realization and shall not
confer self liberation.  One should listen to Guru's words,
and act as per His words."  So, helping in Self realization is
helping in cleaning process.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: David on October 20, 2008, 09:41:50 PM
Hi Friends,
I'm new to the site having bumped into it straight after a weekend of silence with friends in the English countryside. During our practice we bumped into the Mind alright. It seemed that it was not so much a question of seeking to pacify the Mind, but rather getting sufficiently silent so that the Mind could be observed for what it was and is. The more it was within the vision of the independent Witness the more it seemed to pacify itself. The frustrating thing is that this is so easily forgotten. We practised asking ' to whom is this idea arising' and then following on with the question ' Who am I?' We read about this in the numerous Sri Ramana Maharshi books and the guidance seemed very effective. We got into trouble when we deliberately set out to "still" or "quieten" the mind. But when we remembered that the Awareness and Myself are not different, and we remembered ourselves as the Witness, the quietening process seemed to happen, more or less.
I would be really interested to find out if we are on the right track with this. I'm sure that lots of people have much more experience of working with Ramana's teachings than we have so it would be really interesting to hear from those who have practised similarly.
Thanks. I feel really privileged to have found this site.
David
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: DRPVSSNRAJU on October 21, 2008, 09:27:09 AM
Dear David,
               Your understanding of self-enquiry is on the right path.One day you will be centred in awareness and stillness of thought happens to you as a side effect.
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 21, 2008, 11:24:14 AM
Dear David,

Your post.  "Getting silent" and observing the mind as the Witness,
itself shows that there is nothing much for you to clean up.  Kindly
keep up this practice.  Even without going to the countryside,
please do it in London or Birmingham, amidst the din of the cities.
If you always need a country side and a week end, (space and time),
you shall never be able to cross the Picadilly Circus.  Please pursue
and post your experiences.  These shall benefit all.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: David on October 21, 2008, 09:59:28 PM
Dear David,

Your post.  "Getting silent" and observing the mind as the Witness,
itself shows that there is nothing much for you to clean up.  Kindly
keep up this practice.  Even without going to the countryside,
please do it in London or Birmingham, amidst the din of the cities.
If you always need a country side and a week end, (space and time),
you shall never be able to cross the Picadilly Circus.  Please pursue
and post your experiences.  These shall benefit all.

Arunachala Siva.   

Dear Subramanian and Raju,

Thank you both for your encouraging responses. We shall certainly try this in Piccadilly Circus and let you know and I shall try it in the midst of the daily schedule. Many of us are teachers and there is plenty of opportunity for the Mind to get moving along with the bodies.
I remember reading in an Upanishad that when he thinks, Brahman is called the Mind; when he sees, Brahman is called the eye etc. This seems to be referring to something different to the killing off of the Ego. I hope I have not misquoted the Scripture. If I have, perhaps you would be kind enough to correct it; if not, a commentary on this would be helpful. Because, of a certainly, the Mind does seem to be used a great deal! Thank you again for your interest.
David
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: Subramanian.R on October 22, 2008, 11:07:12 AM
Dear David,

Your post.  Brahadarnyaka Upanishad says that mind is the
eye, it is the ear, etc., only to take the disciple towards the
path.  It is a typical Hindu way of writing to point you that
these are all "neti neti, not this, not this" towards the end.
For example, when one young boy is living in a mid-country,
with seas far away, (like central Africa and not England) and if he
asks his father, "How is ocean?'.  The father should show him
a well first, a tank next and a river next and ultimately say
Not this, not this.  The ocean is still bigger.  Finally, when he
takes his son to the ocean, past Madgasgar, there is no need
for any comparsion.  He sees; he understands.  Seeing is
believing.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: No need to pacify the mind
Post by: David on October 22, 2008, 05:30:31 PM
Dear David,

Your post.  Brahadarnyaka Upanishad says that mind is the
eye, it is the ear, etc., only to take the disciple towards the
path.  It is a typical Hindu way of writing to point you that
these are all "neti neti, not this, not this" towards the end.
For example, when one young boy is living in a mid-country,
with seas far away, (like central Africa and not England) and if he
asks his father, "How is ocean?'.  The father should show him
a well first, a tank next and a river next and ultimately say
Not this, not this.  The ocean is still bigger.  Finally, when he
takes his son to the ocean, past Madgasgar, there is no need
for any comparsion.  He sees; he understands.  Seeing is
believing.

Arunachala Siva.

Dear Subramanian,
Thank you for this. I think for many years I have fallen into an error of understanding. Yeats version of the Brihad Upanishad says: " When he is breathing, they ( the ignorant) name Him breath; when speaking, they ( the ignorant) name Him speech; when seeing they name Him eye; when hearing they name Him ear; when thinking they name Him mind." It is hard to explain what my error has been, but there has been a confusion as to who "they" are. The brackets above are mine ( as it were), not Yeat's. To say that Brahman breaths or sees or thinks at one level seems absurd and yet there is obviously breath and sight and thought. I am not that breath, sight or thought - neti, neti- so who am I? The analogy of the boy and the ocean is very helpful indeed; not this, not this.
It leaves the questions: what is breath? What is sight? What is mind? Is this just maya? If so, how to wake up?
Thank you,
David